I received this comment from David in the (very long) thread under my article Why I Quit Christianity.
Hi Richard, my honest and completely unsolicited opinion: I think you got burned out! The Bible Wheel patterns are unmistakable and can’t possibly be explained by cognitive bias if others independently notice them, but you may never again be in a headspace where you can accept the most clear explanation. You ever see when rock bands are interviewed about their last hit album and they always look like they want to punch the interviewer in the face because they’d rather talk about their new material? You were doing this for over a decade.
Hi David,
Thanks for taking time to share your insights. But just so you know, I actually did “solicit your opinion” by writing my article on my blog and enabling comments. I’m glad you took me up on my offer.
It is true that I worked intensely on the Bible Wheel research, website, and book for over a decade, and I suppose that would take a toll on any man, but I can’t say that I ever felt “burned out” about it. The Bible Wheel was always a fresh and invigorating study, and it remains intriguing to me now even though I completely reject the concept of a theistic style God. I debate Christians regularly on my forum, and constantly notice the same kind of powerfully meaningful connections that convinced me that the Bible was “God’s Word” what I was a Christian. The only difference now is that I don’t see Yahweh as a viable explanation of anything, let alone “the most clear explanation”. From my present perspective, the God of the Bible is a philosophical, moral, and scientific impossibility.
Also, having Christian beliefs is inherently stressful even if we don’t make them public. The bible makes it pretty clear that God doesn’t really like us and that we don’t really like him. It doesn’t matter if he occasionally loves us. If he flies off the handle on occasion and abuses us, but then turns around and lavishes us with generosity, this is too unstable to work around. If we feel obligated to witness, it creates resentment.
I love your honesty, and I must agree; the biblegod does not much like his creation, and I can’t imagine why any human would much like him. He is capricious, irrational, demanding, vengeful, and worst of all – utterly untrustworthy. So untrustworthy, in fact, that it’s as if he didn’t even exist! The idea that “God is trustworthy” is the most explicit and incontrovertible proof that Christianity is fundamentally delusional. If God were half as trustworthy as the average dentist there would be no debate about his existence.
None of this has anything to do with the truth of his existence though. I don’t think your points above about doctrine of hell or abominations really have much logically to do with belief. I don’t disbelieve the existence of a lion because he mauls a gazelle. I just keep my distance from the lion. Even if you say it contradicts God’s own statements about himself, this doesn’t have much logically to do with belief. People don’t become nonexistent if they self promote.
I guess I’m saying I think you are somewhat confusing what you want to be true with what you suspect to be true deep down.
I don’t see how you can separate “belief in God” from the moral abominations attributed to him. There is no doubt about the existence of the lion. The same cannot be said of the biblegod. And more importantly, many of the claims the Bible makes about God are demonstrably false, such as the idea that he created heaven and earth and Adam and Eve, or that there was a global flood. Couple this with the primitive irrationality and immorality attributed to him, and again we see that he is not a viable explanation of anything, whether it be creation or the Bible Wheel.
What do you think I “want” to be true? I remember once years ago, around 1993 in the Blue Moon Tavern in Seattle, when I was just getting turned on to Christ and the Bible. I was a “stealth evangelist” hanging out with my old drinking buddies, trying to “turn them on” to the beauty I saw in Christ and the Bible. So we were chatting one day, and I led the conversation to things we would “want” to be true, and opened my Bible and read this:
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
I read that, caught my friend’s eye, and said “I’m not asking you to believe this, but wouldn’t you want it to be true?” He nodded. Then we clinked our glasses and took a hit of beer. All this to say that I am very familiar with the difference between what I want to be true and what is actually true, and I don’t think that is what’s going on with me. I wanted it to be true, and I had the Bible Wheel to prove it! No one has ever successfully shown any systematic error or fundamental flaw in the Bible Wheel. I cannot refute it myself. But neither can I believe in the God of the Bible. So I am mystified.
The quality of your life has improved. You’ve relaxed and you’re healthy. I’d take this over going nuts like Jeremiah or Ezekiel. How many of us visiting your site and posting with you actually cared about your well being? Seriously, what’s more important – proving the truth of existence in a heated internet debate or walking through the woods with your wife? I tried showing some of the Bible Wheel patterns to believers before, and I abruptly stopped when I didn’t get a reaction anything like what I expected. It’s not worth it – it’s too much. You either have the eyes and ears or you don’t.
Reading your comments reminds me how I was “burned out” to a degree without really knowing it. Burned out from the endless abuse (mindless moronic mockery) I received from almost all Christians I ever encountered online. But now I understand why. Christianity, like all dogmatic religions, is a mind-killer. It tends to corrupt the minds and morals of believers. It breeds a contempt for the truth. It was folly to expect evidence would mean anything to such people.
If you revisit the Bible Wheel material someday, my honest advice is: Don’t cast your pearls before swine. Don’t feel the need to carry water for God. Screw the Christian community – too many scribes and Pharisees. Don’t feel the need to ignore science or hippie lifestyle or whatever else. It’s not about a grand system of beliefs, it’s about taking care of yourself. You’re only human. Best wishes.
Nice advice! Thanks. That’s half the problem I am sure – I forgot who I was because the only people who responded to my work were fundamentalists, and I (unfortunately) am prone to a certain kind of “fundamentalist” thinking (black and white certainty). That’s why I enjoy mathematics I suppose. Every vice has a corresponding virtue, ya know? In any case, I take your advice to heart, and am happily enjoying coming backing to my senses, grounded in who I am. The Bible Wheel remains …. a mystery! And I’m good with that.
I’m really glad you took time to share your thoughts David,
All the best,
Richard
Hi Richard:
Interesting comments by both you and David. I guess I find it somewhat amusing to hear you talk about your life and negative response many have had to your work on the Bible Wheel. I find it facinating that what brings one person down can elevate the quest for wisdom and knoeledge in another, We get out of life what we look for in life…
I have great respect for you as a person, I think you are brilliant! It is quite an eye opener to realize that so much “good” can come from so much pain and loss. Like a jigsaw puzzle we place the pieces of our lifes together in a way which becomes meaningful to us. But in the end the mystery remains…
And it is in that quiet unknown world that we finally come face to face with the truth! Time alone with tell when the bell will toll…for you! I wish you all the best…
Namaste,
Mystykal
Hello Richard.
I have a personal relationship with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I mean a real relationship that is stronger than any relationship I have with anyone. When God has a quest for me, He speaks to me. When I have something to learn, it’s Jesus who teaches me. And when I’m weak, lost or ready to give up, it’s the Holy Spirit that gives me strength and guides me in the right direction. For 33 years, the Lord did not speak to me. I’ve had dreams but nothing I would say out of ordinary. One day, the Lord called my name. I never expected or even hoped because I had planned to go to heaven based on faith alone. I have seen demons, know their names and dominions, I’ve seen angels, I’ve learned valuable lessons from satan who mislead and lies, I’ve seen heaven and hell… I have seen…
The biblewheel is one secret to unlocking the bible. It’s not the only secret. There are many! You asked many questions about the integrity of God and when I was in the mist of mighty trials, I questioned and accused God of many things. Let me tell you this, God never harmed me or pushed me further than what I could handle. The answers were given at the end of trials and those trials were the answers to my questions.
I remember the Lord showing me Japan before the earthquake. I saw mighty statue fall and the Lord telling me that He’s going to destroy Japan with the elements that they worship. Water, fire, air and earth… I’m sure you’re asking why would He destroy if He’s a loving God? Let me pose this question. If someone was torturing your wife and children, what would you do to that man? If he was raping your wife everyday, how kind should you be to that man? IF HE LOVES YOU, WOULDN’T GOD DO WHAT IS RIGHT BY KILLING THE MAN WHO IS TORTURING AND RAPING? Does He not love you more than the man? What if this man was carrying a virus that’s going to kill you and your family? Would you want God to do nothing? This virus is false religion in Japan. Did the Lord not send many missionaries to Japan, sending of warnings? Did he not wait years and years for them to repent and change their ways? Was God heartless to kill everyone?
Q: Does God love us all? A: NO. God does not love us all! For God so loved the world… I can say, I love America but that doesn’t mean I love every single criminal, rapist and liars. He has His favorites just like us. Are we not made in His image? You might say, that’s not fair! How is that not fair? Can you of your free will love everyone equally?! Why? Because people suck, we’re selfish and mean! Do we not judge who is good and who is evil?
Many of your questions are answered in how you perceive justice. You can’t have a God who cares to NOT judge. I know the truth about diseases and healing. I know the truth about Revelations. I know the secrets of dominions, 4 horsemen and the Kingdom of God… None of this matters unless you know how to judge.
The Lord allowed me to see what He sees. I can see their sin as plainly as the clothes they are wearing. Let me end this by, If I was God, I would have destroyed this planet. GOD IS BEYOND KIND, UNDERSTANDING AND GENEROUS. Here is one mystery, every sin is living and crawling. It’s attached to you and lives off of you. Imagine looking at someone that hasn’t asked the Lord’s forgiveness and seeing someone full of sin. Most people cannot be seen because they are covered in millions of crawling sins. It’s the most hideous disgusting thing I have ever seen. If you see what the Lord sees as I have, we would have killed them all for they are filthy but the God you accuse sent Jesus to die for us so that we may be cleansed… That’s the difference.
Another hint. The bible isn’t a bible. Think of it as a manual with a test at the end! The 4 parts are separated by grade. Elementary, high school, collage and exam. Ponder on this.
No matter where you are at now, don’t stop. Keep going to where ever the road leads. I promise you that if you keep going, keep searching, you’ll find that answer you seek.
Richard, I love you my brother. You sound like a wonderful person. I know you are good.
After the Hebrew Scriptures, which are filled with iniquity and a God that condones murder, rape, kidnapping, slavery, and killing of children, are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, which are truly beautiful and filled with love. The rest of the New Testament after the Gospels contain highly questionable things that just can’t be true. For instance it is said that women should not teach and that gays go to hell and that governments of the Earth are ordained by God. Whereas if a woman were to write down what she had to teach, and a man read it, and it was all true, how could the man deny truth just because a woman wrote it? If homosexuals are born that way or whether they choose to be gay, they proclaim that they cannot change, just as heterosexuals proclaim that they cannot change, thus gays don’t lie to themselves and love their partners just like heterosexuals do. Can we deny love and truth? And I don’t even have to say a single word about governments not being ordained by God because surely the governments of this world are corrupt, just as the Pharisees and the Scribes were corrupt in the temple, and Jesus let them know it. And all judgment based on the appearance but not righteous judgment are not of God. If a person says that the color black is evil, then what about the blind man who cannot see, surely he doesn’t look at colors at all. If a person says that you must pray a certain way or speak in tongues, then what about the person who cannot speak at all, surely his prayers are heard also. Jesus said that God heard him always.
I cannot prove to you the existence of God but I can prove to you the existence of the Kingdom of God. I love that you acknowledge that the Lion (Jesus Christ) existed and does exist. Jesus prayed to God many times, and God doesn’t pray to himself. Jesus when he is praying to God is the Son of Man in the flesh but his Spirit is the Son of God. In heaven Jesus’ soul sits on the right hand of the power of God (and Jesus said that he was before Abraham so remember who Jesus declared God to be). The same Jesus that was here two thousand years ago will one day come back again, and we will know him by his words and by his actions, nothing else, nothing else. For as humans our words and our actions are all that we have.
The “Christian” religion teaches intolerance. They will tell you that many a good person goes to hell simply for not believing–or even not knowing about–Jesus Christ. Even when Jesus Christ said that anyone who believes he is innocent goes to heaven (robber on the cross next to Jesus proclaims Jesus’ innocence and Jesus tells him he will see him in paradise). Jesus prayed for those that persecuted him, that God would forgive them. If he prayed for them that they be forgiven then they too go to heaven, or else Jesus would not of asked for their forgiveness if God was going to cast them into hell anyway. This is truth: there is no physical place called hell, not according to Jesus. Hell is the place in our hearts and in our lives where we don’t accept truth and instead practice hypocrisy. All of our misdeeds we all feel bad about and will remember when we go to heaven. And a liar has to remember his lies in order to cover them up with more lies later on when they are asked about. Lying is imprisonment, truth sets you free. Know that the “Christian” religion does not bring the true bread of heaven, which Jesus also said about Moses, and that Jesus was before “Christianity” just as he said he was before Abraham. Jesus will rebuke those Christian denominations that separated themselves and called themself Christ, falsely.
When I go out into the world and I see all people, men and women, those who are religious and those who are not, all races and nationalities, heterosexuals and homosexuals, I know that when I see love from all the groups of the world that I am in the Spirit and presence of God, that “The Lord is my shepherd, I lack nothing. He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters, he refreshes my soul. He guides me along the right paths for his name’s sake. Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Surely your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever (Psalm 23).
Ask anyone in the world two questions:
Do you prefer to be told the truth or to be told lies?
Do you prefer that people do things to you either with or without your agreement?
Everyone on Earth answers the two questions the same way.
Jesus Christ was at a well and a Samaritan woman asks him for living water, of which Jesus said that everyone who shall drink of the waters that I will give him shall not thirst for eternity, but those waters that I give him shall be springs of waters in him that shall spring up into eternal life. She asks because she does not take, but instead seeks agreement, and he agrees to give it to her. He tries to get her to lie which she does not, instead telling him the truth. He said she answered well. He gave her TRUTH AND AGREEMENT, living water, the Kingdom of God.
Before your words you have two choices and before your actions you have two more. When you speak you can either speak the truth or speak lies and when you do things that affect other people you can either seek their agreement or not seek their agreement at all.
Jesus Christ said that whenever anyone speaks the truth it is done in the Spirit and presence of God (John 3:21). He said that when anyone gets together with other people and decides to do whatever together, affecting no one else that did not agree, it is done in the Spirit and presence of God (Matthew 18:19).
We all love truth and agreement to be done to us. Truth and agreement are the Spirit of God, The Spirit of Truth, the Kingdom of God, the Tree of Life, the Ark of the Covenant, the Divine Spark, The Philosophers Stone, The Golden Rule, and Objective Morality. Do unto others as you would have done unto you so do unto others truth and agreement.
There is only 1 true God. 5 things: truth in words, agreement in actions, help those in need when and where you can, be humble you are not better than anyone else, and forgiveness. Expressed as 3 things: Love, Truth, and Agreement. Judge not on the appearance but rather judge righteous judgement, lying and not seeking agreement are judged. John the Baptist said and did the five things. Jesus said and did the five things. The robber on the cross said and did the five things. I hope you understand. You do like numbers don’t you?
And when Jesus kicked the money changers out of the temple, surely they wouldn’t of agreed to it, but the agreement was that the temple is a place of God, not of money and power, so he kicked them out, righteously. Seek the root agreement.
No one likes a hypocrite, and because you love truth and agreement to be done to you, do it for other people also. This core hypocrisy is sinful.
No one likes false righteousness, and because many think there is condemnation of others for their beliefs, yet they harm no one with beliefs alone, they do it without cause.
No one likes it when others judge them about things that they do that affect no one else, but everyone righteously judges lying and those who trespass against them, who do things to them that they don’t agree to.
The Spirit of Truth is not a person. The Gospels are to be interpreted with love, not hate, with truth, not lies. Words and actions define a person, not beliefs, and God sees this. Beliefs are things that can’t be proven, so they are just beliefs, but the Kingdom of God is true and not a belief, because you can ask yourself the two questions and you will answer the same way as everyone else, including men and women, those who are religious and those who are not, all races and nationalities, heterosexuals and homosexuals. The answers to the two questions have been the same since the beginning of time and will be the same until the end of time, just as the groups of this world have been the same since the beginning of time and will be the same until the end of time. If you make war with them you make war with God, and if you don’t acknowledge that they also do Love, Truth, and Agreement, and that it is done in the Spirit and presence of God, then you speak against the Holy Ghost, and need to repent.
Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to God but by me”. And he meant it. The way is agreement, the truth is the truth, and the life are the results. And a goal reached as the result of truth and agreement is a goal built on a rock, but the goal reached as a result of lying and not seeking agreement is a goal built on sand. When the winds and the rains come the goal built on a rock withstands and lives, but the goal built on sand withers and dies. Jesus’ person did Love, Truth, and Agreement since he came to us and until he left us. Jesus’ Spirit, being the Spirit of God, is Love, Truth, and Agreement, and no one comes to God but by the Spirit of God. When an atheist speaks the truth and does agreement it is done in the Spirit and presence of God.
Jesus Christ is a person with a soul who was born of God. He did Love, Truth, and Agreement his whole life. He prayed to God many times while he was here on Earth. We are spiritual beings who are to be born again. Jesus Christ the person is coming back, and he is the Messiah. You will know him by his words and by his actions, not by how he looks, and not any other way. Anyone who brings war to those at peace is not of God. Do Love, Truth, and Agreement, judge lying and not seeking agreement.
@Cyndiee ‘s comment above is disheartening. Cyndiee would have us believe that God does bad things to good people such as create havoc with an Earthquake in Japan, merely for what many good loving Japanese people believe to be true. Beliefs mind you, not words or actions, for words or actions are what we are judged on, but the God that Cyndiee found in the Bible is not one of compassion but of sacrifice.
The reasoning put forth by the commenter is the very problem that is wrong in the world today. The commenter seems to hate others who are not Christian, never mind how good they are, only that they are not Christian. And yes we are to love one another Jesus said. He said to love our enemies, but judge their words and deeds.
If the commenter saw evil spirits I would suggest to the commenter to remember love, that just a drop of love crushes a mountain of hate and fear.
The commenter would have you believe that going around saying that God wants you to be a Christian or you are going to hell is a good way for people to get to know Jesus Christ. Jesus said to fish on the other side of the ship and you might actually catch some fish. If you tell someone to be fearful that if they are not Christian that they are going to hell, then maybe some out of fear will try to become Christian, but an AGREEMENT to be Christian is not an AGREEMENT at all if it is not based on love and truth. If you are Christian for fear of the Lord then check your heart because God is LOVE, not fear, truth and not lies. If someone makes an AGREEMENT to be a Christian out of fear then the AGREEMENT is not true and thus a lie. If you then go around outside in the world throughout your day looking upon good people who are not Christian with contempt and hate because they are not Christian then you don’t know what a Christian really is. I tell you today that if an atheist since the day they were born only told the truth and only did things to other people with their agreement that atheist would be a begotten Son of God and not even know it. Jesus did this his whole life, that is what makes him the begotten Son of God, whereas we have been and are human beings who make mistakes, so we are to be born again.
I tell you today that any person who condemns good people for their beliefs alone does not know God at all, and in fact, condemn that good person without cause, just like Jesus was condemned without cause. The commenter even goes so far as to say the God doesn’t love us all even when Jesus tells us that God judges no man, that Jesus judges no man, and that even when judgment is done, it is the words and actions that are judged, not the person.
Indoctrination is not a good thing. It brings you to a wall that stops you but the truth doesn’t stop at that wall. Follow through on truth and you will truly know God and his Son.
Hi Richard!
Didn’t you ever thought that maybe you were helped by satan in your work of the Bible Wheel? As a fallen angel – and he was the closest angel to God – he knows a lot about God’s work.
satan uses that knowledge to create other religions and even to help man to discover God’s ways and works, but at the end all he wants is to apart man from God.
I think he did that to you. Maybe your work made you think you are brilliant (and pheraps you are!), but have you ever thought that was satan playing with your ego?
Sometimes I’m afraid that he might do that with me.
Jesus is real. And He is the only way to everlasting life.
He is waiting for you, like He is waiting for everyone, because God do not want anyone to perish.
But it depends on you, to turn to God or not. He created you with free will. He will not force you to believe in Him.
Search Him with faith and you will find Him.
Don’t try to limit God to human science. That would make your brain burn out.
Our science can not measure what is eternal, what is all-powerful and what is all-knowing. And God is all that.
Save yourself and your wife.
Remember we have only until our last breath.
Zephaniah 1:2 I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD.
Hey there Rui,
No, I have never thought that Satan designed the Bible Wheel. That thought seems absurd since the Bible Wheel is the best evidence I have ever seen for the idea that the Bible is inspired by God. Indeed, the evidence remains as valid today as ever. The only reason I reject that conclusion is because the Biblical description of God is inconsistent with the kind of intelligence displayed in the design of the Wheel.
I see no reason to believe that “Jesus is real” and that “he is the only way to eternal life.” And certainly see no reason to believe that he is “waiting” for people. What about all the people that lived and died without hearing about him? What about all the people that lived and died before he was born? And besides, your “Gospel” contradicts other forms of Christianity, such as Calvinism, which was the primary Gospel preached by the Reformers who said that there is nothing that anyone can do to get saved. Absolutely NOTHING – your fate was determined before you were born (the doctrine of election). And they also said that the Pope was the Antichrist! Obviously, there is no “Christianity” but only a mass of incoherent “Christianities” that say the other forms are of the devil. Religion is a world of confusion. It seems absurd to believe that a rational God would judge people by whether or not they blindly accepted such incoherent doctrines.
But it is interesting that some Jews I was debating years ago on “Jews for Judaism” could not refute the Bible Wheel and so one suggested that it was a trick by Satan that God allowed to see if the Jews would “hold to the Torah” despite the evidence for Christianity.
I never try to “limit God to human science.” That doesn’t even make any sense. What does “human science” even mean? Do you know of some other kind of “science”? Science is the study of physical reality. Christians reject it because it reveals that their religion is based on superstitions and falsehoods written by primitive ignorant men.
You say that “science can not measure what is eternal, what is all-powerful and what is all-knowing. And God is all that.” Well here’s some news for you: Nobody knows anything about the “all-powerful, all-knowing, eternal God” that you claim to believe in. Indeed, the Christian conception of God is radically incoherent, because an eternal all-knowing being has no freedom of any kind. He can’t make any real “choices” because he already knew what he would choose before he chose it. So he is nothing like a “person” in any way at all. He is more like a brute fact that cannot be moved by any prayers of a human. And of course, that brings up the primary delusion of Christianity – the idea that God answers prayers. God does not, as a general rule, answer any prayers. He cannot be actually TRUSTED to do anything for anyone. This means he is absolutely untrustworthy, and all Christians know this. How then can they say that “God is trustworthy”? They cannot. It is the primary delusion of their religion.
Your suggestion that I “save myself” by falsely claiming to believe something I don’t seems absurd. If that’s God’s standard for salvation, then God is nuts. It reminds me of a Facebook meme I recently saw. It’s the classic picture of Jesus knocking on the door. It says:
Jesus: “Knock, knock.”
Me: “Who is there?”
Jesus: “Jesus. Let me in.”
Me: “Why should I let you in?”
Jesus: “So I can save you.”
Me: “Save me from what?”
Jesus: “From what I’m going to do to you if you don’t let me in.”
LOL
Your assertion that I have only till my “last breath” is something that really bugged me ever since I first heard the Gospel as a child. It always bugged me because it says that I must believe things as long as I can’t prove them, and it will be too late when I finally get proof! That’s a serious mind-fuck, if you will pardon my French.
But thanks for you comments. I just wish you had thought them through a little more before submitting them.
All the best,
Richard
Hey there Cyndee,
Sorry for the slow response. My day job has been keeping me really busy. But hey! Late is better than never, and the great thing about this form of communication is that we can pick up the conversation right where we left it off no matter how much time has passed.
You wrote:
Wow – I’ve heard many people talk like that in my life, but I’ve never met one who was sane. Maybe you are the first. I have no way to know, but neither do I have any reason to think so. And if God really were talking to you like your best buddy, I would think he would mention the little fact that your claims make you sound like a deranged religious lunatic. Just ask him. I’m sure he’ll tell you that since he must know that’s exactly how most rational people would interpret your words. You see, the world really is filled with deluded people who make claims like yours, and if there is a God, then he knows that your claims are indistinguishable from those of the crazy people. So if he really were your friend, he would warn you to not say things that don’t help anyone believe you but rather cause them to reject what you are saying. Do you understand what I’m talking about?
I never though the Bible Wheel was the “only secret.” But when compared with the vast majority of “Bible secrets” out there, it certainly was the most solid. Most of the stuff believers claim are “Bible secrets” is totally idiotic crap that is easily refuted. No one has ever come close to refuting the Bible Wheel. It would be great if they could, since then I would be free from it. As it is, it remains a mystery how the Bible, which is obviously false if read literally, could contain such patterns.
I don’t “question and accuse God” of anything. I question the validity of the descriptions of God found in the Bible. My reasons for rejecting it are fully justified. No Christian can defend the fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible and retain their integrity. That’s why their religion tends to corrupt the minds and morals of believers.
Your assertion that “God never pushed you further than you could endure” seems meaningless to me because God often KILLS his followers.
I consider your comment a perfect example of how religion tends to corrupt the minds and morals of believers. It is simply absurd to think that God guides storms and earthquakes to punish unbelievers. A simple review of world history shows he kills quite indiscriminately. There is no intelligence of any kind behind natural disasters. My favorite example of the absurdity of your position is the Lisbon earthquake of 1755 which happened on All Saints’ Day when the churches were packed. God gleefully dropped the ceiling of the church on his adoring worships as they sang his praises, even as he carefully avoided hurting the prostitutes in the Red Light District. Your conception of God is a pathetic joke. Sorry for speaking so plainly, but hey! I’m just following your lead. You proclaim yourself to be on intimate speaking terms with God Almighty, so I have no doubt that you will be able to handle a little criticism.
You really shouldn’t bring up “rape” in the context of “God” since God commanded the murder of every man, woman, and child of the Midianites, except for 32,000 sexy virgins who were then distributed to be raped by the very people who were still dripping with the blood of their beloved families. Numbers 31.
Right …. And God enabled you to “see what he sees”. Megalomania and Religion. There is no greater corruption of the human heart and mind.
Richard
Greetings Richard!
I have always thought you are a talented, diligent scholar. I think the Bible wheel speaks for itself as an immensely valuable resource.
Now for some words about myself. I am a Christian. I can testify that Jesus Christ was a real person. Without His intervention in my life I would still be living a selfish life. What I have come to understand Richard is that only someone who is selfless can rescue someone who is selfless. Jesus is the Giver of life. I believe His testimony when He says He is the Giver of life.
Richard, you and your precious wife have the opportunity to rethink what you think about Jesus. What I can say is that when anyone seeks to trust and obey His teachings their efforts will bear much fruit.
May God bless you and your wife with a new desire to put His teachings to the test,
Reine Gnade
Correction: Only someone who is selfless can rescue someone who is selfish!
Hey there Reine,
Thanks for the kind words. I understand how you could feel that Christ saved you. I felt that way for over a decade. But my understanding changed over time. One of the big changes was that I allowed myself to actually think about things that are “taboo” for a Christian. For example, the Bible generally presents God as quite irrational, capricious, and egotistical. For example, what would you think of a human who demands constant worship and adoration and insisted that he alone got all the “glory”? That’s doesn’t sound very “selfless” to me. On the contrary, God seems to care only about himself, and to hell (quite literally) with anyone who disagrees. And the Bible teaches us to be like God? Hummmm. So when you tell me that Jesus is selfless, I can’t help but think you are just “parroting” typical religious piety without really thinking about it. Please take no offense, I’m just sharing with you my authentic thoughts.
And what makes you think you are now “selfless”? I wonder if a selfless person could really say such a thing. And I personally don’t see any value in “selflessness”. The ego is a natural and good aspect of any healthy human being. Indeed, the love of “self” is the root of all morality. A selfless person couldn’t care about anyone else because he would be some sort of zombie. Remember the Golden Rule: Love others AS yourself.” If you don’t love yourself, you have no basis for loving others. I explain this in some detail in my article The Logic of Love: A Natural Moral Theory.
It is interesting that “selflessness” is a central concept in Buddhism, which is atheistic.
I would be delighted to discuss these ideas with you in more depth if you are so inclined.
All the best,
Richard
Dear Richard, I appreciate your kind words. I understand that when you write you write from a background of much sincere reasearch, so feel free to share your honest feelings about the God introduced in both the Old and New Testament. I’m certainly not offended by your honest appraisal of the situation. As a gifted researcher you know the importance of taking things slowly.
Richard, you mention the observation that the Bible generally presents God as quite irrational, capricious, and egotistical. If this was true everyone in the world should reject Him, for someone who is egotistical isn’t worthy of bowing down before.
I agree with you that if a human demands constant worship and adoration and insists that he alone got all the “glory” such a person can never fit the description of being “selfless”.
Certainly your observations about the God of the Bible are interesting. What I can say is that when someone knows their value as a person it is praiseworthy to tell the truth about yourself. I find the that the God of the Bible does this. Had He not done this I certainly wouldn’t have looked deeply into His claims.
What caught my attention long before I became a Christian was that He told me that He! both rewarded and punished. I was impressed for here was something tangible that I could put to the test in my own life and I soon came to the conclusion that His thinking was higher than mine.
Richard you write that God seems to care only about himself, and to hell (quite literally) with anyone who disagrees. And the Bible teaches us to be like God? Hummmm.
When I observe the gift of life, which I attribute to God, I come to a different conclusion. My whole being is overflowing with thankfulness and praise. I see a God in the Bible who rightly cares about His name. I find it correct when He says that He is a jealous God. Why would He say such a thing? He says such a thing because He knows His extraordinary value. He knows how blessed our life will be when we worship Him.
Yes you are right the God of the Bible teaches that He alone is God. At first this may seem an arrogant claim but if someone is diligent in trusting and obeying Him He blesses them with a sense of serenity on this matter.
If Jesus isn’t selfless the God of the Bible would be a fraud! If Jesus wasn’t selfless He couldn’t be Savior. If Jesus wasn’t selfless His sacrifice would have been in vain and everyone would still be dead in trespasses and sin.
Richard writes: And what makes you think you are now “selfless”? I wonder if a selfless person could really say such a thing. And I personally don’t see any value in “selflessness”.
No man apart from Christ has ever been selfless or without sin and blemish. God’s cherished plan is to make us more and more like Him but this can only happen if we truly want to become more loving. You see God is love and selflessness is an attribute of love. If God wasn’t selfless He couldn’t be love.
That’s true. Remember the Golden Rule: Love others as yourself.” If you don’t love yourself, you have no basis for loving others. Christians give glory to God for the capability to do this.
May God continue to bless you and your precious wife body, soul and spirit to His glory!
Reine Gnade
Hi Richard, I just found your wheel and I think it’s pretty cool, thanks for putting this up!
Anyone with a desire to know and understand Daddy God must view Him through Jesus Christ. Jesus said that to see Him is to have seen the Father. He said He only did what He saw the Father doing. When people had uncertainty over God’s will, Jesus would confirm every time that The Father was not only able but willing. When the religious leaders thought they had perfect interpretation and practice of God’s law Jesus would reveal The Father’s heart behind the law. The writer of Hebrews states Jesus as being the express image of His Person. Bill Johnson said it more simply than I have, “Jesus Christ is perfect theology.”
Hi Roman,
Have you really considered what your words imply? That Jesus watched his “Daddy” command genocidal murder of every man, woman, and child of the Midianites, except 32,000 sexy virgins who were then distributed to the soldiers who had slaughtered their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, and friends? (Numbers 31). Or what about the time he took Saul’s wives and gave them to David, then took them and gave them to Absalom (his son) to be raped on the rooftop? (2 Sam 12:11). Seriously, can you hold these verses in your head as you imagine God as your “Daddy”?
I’m sorry for the frank speech, but it is needed because religious people delude themselves about what the Bible actually teaches. I am not willing to do that, which is why I quit Christianity.
All the best,
Richard
Richard:
In reference to Numbers 31 God knows all things. If you had the foreknowledge of what HItler was going to do and had the opportunity to take him out by killing his pregnant mother, would you? If not, you would be responsible for all the deaths that Hitler caused.
george
If I had the foreknowledge, I could have prevented Hitler’s mom from having sex with his dad. And if I were omnipotent, I could have designed the universe so there would be no need for my “holy” people to become merciless baby killers. Just look at how the Bible portrays God. He apparently is in love with violence. It seems he can’t think of any other solution to any problem. The Bible says he killed the entire population of the planet in one fit of rage, and then rained down fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah in a subsequent fit of rage (since his first outpouring of wrath did nothing to solve the problem it was supposed to solve). And on and on it goes. He subjected Israel to three years of famine without even telling them why, and then when David finally asked, he found out it was because of some sins of the former king Saul. And what was the solution God demanded? The human sacrifice of seven of Saul’s descendants! The Bible is dripping with blood. Genocide – which necessarily includes the murder of innocent babies – in fundamentally immoral. God commanded it. Nuff said.
Richard
Reading thru your reply to David I noticed how you said you were attacked by other Christians a lot.
This is an end time tactic of the enemy who is using Christians to attack other Christians which is most hurtful. The believers who attack others seem to think they are doing God’s will and the enemy has convinced them of such. God help us, much of the body of Christ is indeed in a bit of a mess, but those who endure to the end will be saved.
I urge you to read the first chapter of this vision, THE FINAL QUEST. It is available as a free PDF at this site: http://papagodsdreaminterps.freeforums.net/thread/338/renounciation-satanism-generational-personal
God bless you and restore you,
Ericka
Hey there Ericka,
I read your “renunciation of Satanism” post in the link you gave. There was a time, some years ago when I was a Christian, when I said things like that quite sincerely. I made a big fire of all the occult books I owned and said lots of prayers. It felt very cleansing. But it all seems quite silly to me now since I think that the occult is just another form of superstition like religion in general. Sorry, but that’s just where I’m coming from. It’s funny how things change. For many years I was so convinced of the truth of God and the Bible I could not imagine ever losing my faith. And now I cannot imagine ever believing that kind of stuff again. And the really funny thing is that I don’t feel like I have changed – my reasons for rejecting Christianity now are based on the same kind of reasoning that led me to believe. It’s not the style of reasoning that has changed (since I thought I had authentic evidence), but rather my understanding of what the evidence implies. The Bible, for all it’s amazing depth, is deep both in good and evil. On the one hand, it contains profound wisdom and inspiration while on the other it teaches a horrible god who commands genocide all sorts of immoral and irrational things. It is impossible to justify the idea that it is the “authoritative Word of God”.
Please feel free to share any thoughts you have on this issue.
All the best,
Richard
Hey there Ericka,
I wanted to thank you for posting that link to that ludicrous post on that freaky delusional Christian forum. I had to register to read it, and the administrator – who exalts herself with the title MastersPiece and subtitle “Knowledge Keeper” – engaged me in private conversation. After a few “getting to know you” posts she began spewing her insanity at me, first telling me that my experiences which I interpreted as from Christ when I was a Christian were really “from the enemy” but that it was “possible” that “somewhere deep in my heart” I may, just maybe, “yearn to know the truth.” So I told her that I wished there were a way to help her see how outrageously arrogant and offensive her words were, so she responded with the great intelligence seen in so many Christians, and BANNED ME! Ha! Christian fundamentalists are freaking insane. Their religion breeds a contempt for the truth and tends to corrupt their minds and morals. I’ve seen it ten thousand times. Thanks for the reminder!
Richard writes:
The Bible, for all it’s amazing depth, is deep both in good and evil. On the one hand, it contains profound wisdom and inspiration while on the other it teaches a horrible god who commands genocide all sorts of immoral and irrational things. It is impossible to justify the idea that it is the “authoritative Word of God”.
Greetings Richard and Rose and all keen followers of this lively and valuable thread.
I’ve been blessed to discover that the Bible is a unique book which gives us an amazing insight into how evil man can behave. Only a God who is totally honest could shock us to the very core of our being as the God of the Bible does. He doesn’t do this to rub our nose in the dirt but to show us that we, like our fellowman, have all gone astray.
When I look at human history I find the same story that supports what the Bible teaches. I see man exalting himself and committing atrocity after atrocity. The God of the Bible is the only God who tells the truth about how wicked man is. Not only does He do this but He proves His authenticity by placing everything in its true historical context.
May the only true God, the gracious good God of the Bible inspire and empower you to many deeds of love in 2014!
God loves you,
Josef Sefton
Richard writes:
The Bible, for all it’s amazing depth, is deep both in good and evil. On the one hand, it contains profound wisdom and inspiration while on the other it teaches a horrible god who commands genocide all sorts of immoral and irrational things. It is impossible to justify the idea that it is the “authoritative Word of God”.
In reply to Richard’s quote I need to say that the Author of life has the right to take or give life. If He didn’t have this right to do this He wouldn’t be sovereign. Richard, anyone can accuse anyone of being horrible, immoral or irrational. That’s easily accomplished but applying these adjectives to the Author of life is an error!
Richard, if you make a very careful study of the Bible God will reveal to you that the teaching voice of the Bible is authorative. Start afresh. Desire in your heart to get to know the only person who is selfless. God bless you!
Actually, it’s the Bible that says God is horrible, immoral, and irrational. So when you say the Bible is true, you become the one who accuses God of being horrible, immoral, and irrational.
Greetings Richard and Rose!
When I say the Bible is true, I don’t become someone who accuses God of being horrible, immoral, and irrational.
The Bible never says God is horrible, immoral and irrational. Richard, that is the conclusion you currently have come to. Only God can reveal to us that He is love.
Richard and Rose, don’t be put off by the atrocities you find in the Bible or during the course of human history.
Choose life. Choose to follow the Author of Life. Choose Christ! Choose to be taught by Him!
Josef Sefton
Hello Josef
You said: “When I say the Bible is true, I don’t become someone who accuses God of being horrible, immoral, and irrational.
The Bible never says God is horrible, immoral and irrational. Richard, that is the conclusion you currently have come to. Only God can reveal to us that He is love. ”
The Bible contains all the actions that man has attributed to its god; such as genocide, infanticide, murder, and gender bias. We as rational humans interpret those actions as being immoral, hence the Biblegod is horrible and immoral by its own record.
God cannot be called “Love” on one hand, and have all those atrocities attributed him on the other hand. The Bible is self condemning.
Rose
Hi Richard,
Wow! You think OT God is harsh? You’re right, but NT Daddy has Him beat (by the way they are the same person). Proof positive is the Great White Throne Judgement and the subsequent eternal Lake of Fire.
Isn’t that why He gave us His Son? He thoroughly punished and judged His own Son for all the evil, creepy, self-righteous…..things we have ever, ever will do.
Accept the Son, know God as Daddy! Reject the Son, fear God as Judge eternal. Basics a two year old can understand.
I say it again, Jesus words, acts and character reflect the Daddy God He wants us all to know and experience.
It reminds me of a shirt I once saw: No God, Know Fear; Know God, NO FEAR!
Your glasses are still on backwards though OT -> NT. If you want true clarity and understanding turn them around.
Thanks for your reply Richard!
P.S. If you truly were born again and then became not born again, where did you stash The Holy Spirit?
God bless you Rose, it’s always good to here your viewpoint.
God’s speech and deeds don’t condemn Him, but man’s speech and deeds do condemn him!
The God of the holy Bible is sinless. When He takes life He doesn’t become guilty! He is from eternity to eternity sinless. This is not so with man, His creation. God treasures the gift of human life which He created. And even when He punishes us it isn’t because He is cold hearted, it is for our long term benefit.
Rose, if you give up on the God of the Bible you will not find another one, for all the other gods in other books are impostors. Look wholeheartedly to Jesus, for He is the Light of the World. He is the Truth. He is eternal gracious, good God. He is the holy One who longs for us to deeply investigate His unique life. Start afresh. You have a unique opportunity to do this!
Josef Sefton
Hey there Roman,
I agree that the Bible teaches that God is the same in the OT and the NT. So I don’t know what you think you mean when you talk about the “NT Daddy”. He has the blood of innocents on his hands. He commanded the slaughter of women and children, and let the bloody Hebrew soldiers take 32,000 sexy virgins to use as sex slaves. Just read the Bible with open eyes, and you will see the nature of the God you believe in reflects the brutal nature of the primitive warriors who invented him. He acts in the Bible just like a primitive man. For example, he took Saul’s harem of women and gave them to David, and when David displeased him, he took David’s women and gave them to his son Absalom to be raped on the rooftop! Where was God’s concern for those poor women? He passed them around like party treats, and used them as tools to cause David pain. That’s how animals show dominance – by using sex as violence. God was, in effect, raping David. The fact that Christians refuse to see what is really in the Bible makes any of believing it look quite absurd.
You have a selection bias.You accept the part of the Bible you like and ignore or explain away the rest. I can’t do that.
Given that God is the one threatening people with everlasting torment if they think for themselves, I think it would be more accurate to say NO GOD, NO FEAR, Know God, Know fear! Indeed, that’s what Jesus said in the Bible:
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him [GOD] which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
My glasses are clear. I see both the OT and the NT and how they relate. I just don’t ignore the stuff in the OT like you do.
You’re welcome. And thank you!
Your comment assumes that Christianity is true. If it were true, i would not have stopped believing it.
Great chatting!
Richard
Hello again Josef,
You said: “The God of the holy Bible is sinless. When He takes life He doesn’t become guilty! He is from eternity to eternity sinless. This is not so with man, His creation. God treasures the gift of human life which He created. And even when He punishes us it isn’t because He is cold hearted, it is for our long term benefit.”
Don’t you realize that the words you say to justify the Biblegod’s immoral nature are forced upon you in order to make him appear good. The Bible treats human life as worthless and cheap. Men, women and children are killed by command of god just to take their land, or virgin women are captured to supply the Hebrew men with wives. These atrocities happen over and over again throughout the Bible and only someone who willfully blinds their eyes overlooks them.
If you truly believe the Bible is god’s word then he is indeed a moral monster, otherwise it is just a book made up from the ideas of primitive men who constructed a god in their own image.
Rose
Hey there Josef,
I agree that the Bible does not “say” that God is horrible, but it does describe God as doing horrible, immoral, and irrational things. That’s what I meant. So when you say that the Bible is true, you are saying horrible things about God, such as that he commanded genocide (which is immoral) and the taking of 32,000 virgins, and so forth. And he was many times irrational, as when he punished all Israel for three years with a famine without even telling them why, and when David finally asked, he was told it was because of some crimes of the previous king Saul! Is that rational? Nope. I could go on, of course. The Bible describes God as horrible, immoral, and irrational. Is there any reason anyone should believe it?
Why not? Why should we accept such atrocities attributed to the Almighty? Why should anyone believe that God is really like that?
I do choose life! And freedom, and truth! If there were any truth in God and the Bible, why can’t any Christians explain it in a way that makes sense? All you are doing is repeating slogans, like a Muslim or a Mormon. Merely saying “Choose life” means nothing if all you are doing is repeating religious jargon. If there is truth in the Bible, why can’t you state it in a convincing way? Here’s the problem: I couldn’t believe you if I wanted to because you are not dealing with the truth of what the Bible actually says. That’s what happened to me – I was a believer, but I could not deny the truth. And so now I am not a believer. Simple as that.
Great chatting!
Richard
Hi Richard,
Ok, I get it. You ignore the NT revelation of God through Jesus to justify your bitterness. But you seem to be baiting many of these well meaning people into thinking you are sincerely open.
God IS Love!:-) Did you miss lesson 1A when you learned about salvation or were you merely just trying this God religious thing out to see if you would get a buzz, or fire insurance? Unfortunately like many, I came in because of fire insurance, I stayed because of Love.
If you truly ever had an encounter with the love of God Richard you would never be the same, you would be changed. Sorry, knowing about and parroting His word is not knowing Him or evidence you ever knew Him, or that He knew you.
You claim experience, yet you barely have theory.
I hope you get unstuck Richard, if you want to you will. This whole site may simply be your heart’s cry out for someone to explain the pain. I’m not sure any of your commenters or forum members will ever be able to answer those questions to your satisfaction.
I challenge you to stop griping online about your grievances and take it to the Source. Ask Him Himself to justify His actions to you, and His ways. Don’t back down until He gives you an explanation! I personally would love to read that process blog and I bet so would thousands of other people if not millions, but only if you were honest.
Tell Him I sent you, but He already knows,
Roman
Hey there Roman,
No, you do not “get it” at all. I have no “bitterness” to justify. I have nothing I need to justify. You, on the other hand, must find a way to justify all the irrationality and moral obscenities that the Bible attributes to God. You can’t do that, so you merely assert that I am “ignoring” the NT revelation. But there is one big problem with your assertion – I am ignoring nothing! And ironically, you could not have made that assertion without ignoring what I actually wrote, namely, that Jesus ratified the entire OT including all the moral abominations attributed to God.
Bottom line: I have given solid reasons for my rejection of Christianity, and you have ignored what I have written. If you want to convince me I am wrong, you need to quote what I wrote and show how I erred. It not rocket science, you know.
Your rude and insulting caricature of my experience as a Christian exposes the condition of your heart. I was totally sincere when I described myself as a “blood bought born again Bible believing non-denominational Trinitarian Christian” for over a decade.If you reject my former testimony then you have no reason to accept anyone’s testimony, since you don’t know if they will change their minds tomorrow.
I did not miss any “lessons.” I can explain every detail of Christian dogma as well as anyone. It’s just that I admit the truth that you refuse to see. The idea of “salvation” taught in the Bible is fundamentally unjust. It teaches that if an Nazi killed an innocent Jew and repented before he died, then he would enjoy an eternity of bliss while the innocent Jew he killed would suffer for eternity in hell for the “sin” of not agreeing with your dogmas! That’s insane.
If Christianity is not true, then your words are meaningless. I have given good reasons to reject Christianity. If you disagree with my reasons, you need to show how they are wrong. It is meaningless ad hominem for you to assert that I was never “really” a Christian. And there is another much bigger problem with your assertions. There really isn’t any such thing as “Christianity” per se, but rather a diverse set of contradictory “Christianities” and there is no reason for anyone to think any one of them is true. The Protestants said the Pope was Antichrist! Competing versions of your religion kill each other. It’s all potsherds clashing with potsherds.
Another empty comment. So typical of believers. That’s all they have – unjustified beliefs and empty assertions. I don’t even know what “theory” you think you are talking about.
I was stuck in the false beliefs of religion. Now I have gotten unstuck. I’m free! Unshackled from the chains of mindless dogma that are imposed under threat of eternal torment. Talk about freedom! Woohoo!
And what “pain” do you think you are talking about? I have not expressed any pain. This looks like another typical tactic to bring people into the bondage of religion. You look for the “pain’ and the “uncertainty” and the “angst” that people suffer in life, and tell them that your religion will fix all their problems. You are selling a snake oil panacea, and sales are getting more and more difficult in the Age of Information where folks can easily check the facts. If you want to convince anyone of anything, you need to learn how to form convincing arguments. But that has nothing to do with being a believer, because believers are defined by those who believe despite the evidence.
I am not “griping.” I am expressing my understanding just like you. If you really believed in God, why are you bothering posting things? Why don’t you go directly to the “Source” and ask him what you should be posting? Then you could prove that you have access to the Almighty Omniscient God. But the simple truth is you have no such access. Your beliefs are nothing but your imagination. That’s why you can’t even begin to form a convincing argument, but must rather attack my former faith as false. But that is self-defeating, because if my former faith were false, then there is nothing for me to “return to” since my former faith is EXACTLY the same as the faith you are telling me I should accept.
And therein lies the absurdity of prayer. If God already knows, then there is nothing for us to say to him. I spent many hours in monologues imagining I was “talking to God.”
And this brings up the fundamental delusion of Christianity – the idea that God is trustworthy. Nothing could be more absurd. Everyone knows that God cannot be trusted to do anything for anyone in this life. Folks who trust God for the health of their children end up with dead children and manslaughter convictions. If God were half as trustworthy as the average dentist there would be no debate about his existence. When Christians say that God is trustworthy, they prove nothing but that they are literally delusional.
Now you know my position is based on logic, facts, evidence, and truth. It would be great if you tried to show how I have erred in any of those categories.
All the best,
Richard
@RA McGough
You are a truth seeker! Haha, love it. Not willing to accept unrighteousness done at Gods hands, which is righteous indeed, and is what Jesus did also, for he said “I am before Abraham” and “Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness”, RA McGough, you today receive the reward of truth. the Kingdom of God. For the Lion that is religious texts did not eat you up but rather you ate them up, and your humanity remained!
Much goodness is coming soon. Much indeed.
RA McGough said “I did not miss any “lessons.” I can explain every detail of Christian dogma as well as anyone. It’s just that I admit the truth that you refuse to see. The idea of “salvation” taught in the Bible is fundamentally unjust. It teaches that if an Nazi killed an innocent Jew and repented before he died, then he would enjoy an eternity of bliss while the innocent Jew he killed would suffer for eternity in hell for the “sin” of not agreeing with your dogmas! That’s insane”.
And for that RA McGough you have seen the light. You didn’t let doctrine put up a wall that blocked your way to truth but rather you tore it down with righteousness and followed truth until it blossomed and could go no further! You are great in the Kingdom of Heaven indeed!
When Jesus says that he is the truth he is not playing around. When an atheist speaks the truth and does agreement, God sits there with them. Don’t ever forget that. The simple act of telling the truth is all powerful, it is GOD. Anyone who denies a truth telling atheist denies God and denies the Holy Ghost, and needs to repent!
I could go on arguing about the nature of the Kingdom of God, but for most, it goes in one ear and out the other. But it’s better than arguing “what is good?” and “what is bad?”, because it is, said plainly, “this is good!” and “this is bad!”, now you have a true choice indeed!
All love to the Biblewheel, the intelligence from the other side! Much of what is attributed to “God” in the religious texts is simply iniquity done by the hands of men! Look up truth, look up agreement, look up love! Do truth, not hypocrisy, and the righteous atheist does the Kingdom of God! Hallelujah!
Adam and Eve were made by the serpent to believe that God had LIED to them. They then broke AGREEMENT with God that they would not eat of the Tree of Knowledge. Their sins were LYING and doing NON-AGREEMENT/BREAKING AGREEMENT. The tree was an ordinary tree.
Peter tells Jesus that he will go to his death with Jesus, and then when he denies Jesus three times to save his own life, it reveals that Peter both LIED to Jesus and also broke AGREEMENT with him. When Jesus is resurrected and comes to the shore, he sees Peter and another apostle fishing, the other apostle says about Jesus on the shore “it’s the Lord!”, and when Peter hears this he immediately gets dressed, because he was naked. So just as Adam and Eve LIED and BROKE AGREEMENT so did Peter also, and they both GOT DRESSED when the Lord came looking for them.
Jesus gives the Samaritan woman at the well living water, she asks for it because she seeks AGREEMENT and does not take, and he AGREES to give it to her, asking her a question to see if she will tell the TRUTH, which she does. He said to her that she answered well. He gave her TRUTH and AGREEMENT, the Kingdom of God, living water.
When Jesus says to “ask and you shall be given”, he is telling you that if you need something to ask people for it, and eventually someone will give it to you. When you ask you are seeking AGREEMENT.
John 3:21 says that whenever ANYONE ON EARTH speaks the TRUTH it is done in the spirit and presence of God. Matthew 18:19 reveals that when AGREEMENT is done between people it is done in the spirit and presence of God. There is no higher way to come to God than to be a truth speaker and an AGREEMENT doer, and one not even have to believe in God either. You see, God’s existence for most is a belief, but the existence of TRUTH is not a belief at all.
The way back to the Garden of Eden is TRUTH and AGREEMENT, and everyone on Earth has it within them. We are all made in the Gods image which is why we all answer the two questions the same way.
Ask anyone in the world the two questions. Do you prefer to be told the TRUTH or to be told lies? Do you prefer that people do things to you either with or without your AGREEMENT? EVERYONE ON EARTH has always answered the two questions the same way and will always answer the two questions the same way. Through our words and our actions that affect other people we are revealed as either a truth sayer and agreement doer, or a hypocrite.
As above (Adam and Eve, TRUTH and AGREEMENT), as below (our interaction with other human beings, TRUTH and AGREEMENT), as within (TRUTH and AGREEMENT), as without (other people TRUTH and AGREEMENT). Love God (Love, Truth, and Agreement) with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind, and Love thy neighbor as thyself (Love, Truth, and Agreement). Love one another.
Truth and Agreement beget Love, and that Love beget more Truth and Agreement, and so on. Lying and doing non-agreement beget hate and fear, and that hate and fear beget more lying and more non-agreement.
The cross is truth and agreement. The Tree of Life is truth and agreement.
Functional TRUTH, and functional AGREEMENT. We can argue all day long about beliefs but the TRUTH is provable. Functional TRUTH is GOD. Functional AGREEMENT is GOD. Unprovable belief is just that, belief, and no one cares about your beliefs, only your functional words and your functional deeds.
The Truth sayer and Agreement doer is a Creator! The liar and non-agreement doer is a destroyer!
And this is the message that Jesus came here to say. I can prove every jot and tittle of it using not only common sense but a correct distillation of Jesus’ own words, not the words of the OT or an apostle, but the words of Jesus.
Hello Richard, Did your forefathers have to go through the Spanish Inquisition? Mine did! Any of your family – Loved ones pass through hitlers genocide? -These evil deeds are MANS DOINGS! Any wrong done by men against his neighbor will be paid back, there is a ledger in his presence of all such deeds. My King was there in the gas with those of us Jews who died! You say, he would do better to free them. No! We Love our G_D and as JEWS we were born and as JEWS we die, ever faithful to HIM – at the hands of Evil men. We live and die for the the here after. No matter how man and his allegiance to destroy us and others too, know there will be a day when the books will be opened and they who love Evil will die the death. In this world we have seasons happiness, sadness – darkness and light. Chapter 3 of the Book of Ecclesiastes was put to music by the Byrds in turn,turn,turn (to Everything There Is a Season). This is LIFE make the best of it! My mother said “don’t touch the stove! It Will Burn You!”. To the the point she said the truth in Love, not wanting me to suffer the law of physics. But I did not Hear how she was saying it and why, Ouch!!. Know please Some day He will return and the lion and the lamb will lay down together and that is no story but truth. Watch for suddenly He will Appear!
Don’t ever take the Bible Wheel down. Don’t listen to all these guys trying to be badass, goin’ all, “fuck all dat bullshit, dis ain’t yo’ problem! Quit helpin’ these fools, fool!”
Those guys are idiots and here is why I say that.
If this magnificent work you’ve created so clearly proves Christianity wrong (even though you initially set out to prove it right) then you have absolutely nothing to worry about.
Let the opposition plunder your work. Let them speak, let them look at the Wheel, let them look at the numbers, let them prattle on and on to their hearts’ content about everything you’ve conjured in your brilliance.
If it’s really true that your work gives ample reason to disbelieve God and reject Him, if the numbers ultimately prove your views to be correct, then….*shrug* it’s just a matter of giving your enemies enough rope before they hang themselves.
But if you take the Wheel down, you’ll just prove the opposition right. It’ll just make you look like you got some terrible, terrible secret to hide and that will only serve to discredit you and your (anti)ministry in the process.
You’re really that proud of the evidence your work and the tale of its origins brings to the table? Then don’t take the Wheel down. Don’t admit defeat. Stand tall, stand proud, if the numbers really prove the Father and His Son to be a lie, then your work will speak for itself.
Who knows, maybe it’ll even succeed in making a non-believer out of me ^_^
Hey there VenomFroggy,
You wrote:
It appears you have things backwards. If valid, the Bible Wheel and the “numbers” give evidence FOR, not against, God, Christ, and the Bible. When I was a believer, I understood them as the strongest objectively testable body of evidence for the divine inspiration of the Bible. Where did you get the idea that they somehow give “ample reason to disbelieve God and reject Him”? Your comment makes no sense to me.
All the best,
Richard
R.A. McGough,
Richard, so if I understand correctly, the Biblewheel shows an “intelligence” that is supernatural, is that correct?
If that is correct, does it show that the “intelligence” is good, bad, or neutral?
I have read the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and I fell in love with telling the truth, doing agreement in my actions towards other people, and helping people in perceived need.
It changed my life and I became a new person. This is not hyperbole, I was changed. It has nothing to do with faith and everything to do with how I operate in the world, which are my works. Jesus said we are judged on works, ie read John 3:21 (TRUTH), or Matthew 18:19 (AGREEMENT), or the Parable of the Good Samaritan (HELP PEOPLE IN NEED) or the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:35). He also tells the rich young ruler which commandments to do to be saved and they were all works. He told the young man to sell all that he had, and to follow him, and the young man left dismayed. I read this as a challenge to still keep the commandments even with the pressures of being poor (ie DO NOT STEAL).
When I say “agreement”, I mean that each person has a right to agree or disagree to actions done by other people that affect either their person or their property. This is their inherent right because they have harmed no one.
Now a criminal, say someone who assaults someone else, or a thief, or a robber, or a rapist, or a murderer, they have done these actions, by their very definition, against their victims agreement, and hence, have relinquished their right to agree or not agree to themselves being restrained by others so that they cannot harm anyone again.
I have not read much past the Gospels because I disagree with some things there. I have also not read much of the OT because I disagree with some things there.
Okay, so here’s the rub, I strongly believe that since you have read the OT, the Gospels, and the rest of the NT, that you are in a great position to make a list of things that you find abhorrent that have been attributed to “God”. You can summarize this list. I think that you can then contrast each of those grievances with something that Jesus said that negates those things ie Moses killed male children in Numbers 31 and said that it was ordained by God, but Jesus said that whoever harms a child would be better off tying a millstone around their neck and drowning themselves. Or, vengeance is supposed to be a running theme in the OT, but Jesus told us to forgive, to have mercy, and let truth and love guide us. I believe it was Paul who said that governments of the world and the swords they wield are ordained by God, but Jesus himself confronted the hypocritical and self-serving government of the temple, and told them that God is not hypocritical and not self-serving. Food for thought.
Just a challenge on Easter morning. I have a hard time seeing my friend Jesus Christ who I found in the Gospels being vengeful, or a supporter of killing children, or even having the Holy Spirit kill people (Ananias and Saphira), or that he would say that governments of the world and the swords they wield are ordained by God (Romans 10 I believe, and Paul I believe).
Jesus is special. He is righteous like I know that you are Richard. Righteousness judges us all, even our idea of God. If we don’t wrestle with God but rather just accept anything that is attributed to God then we have left ourselves with nothing.
Ask many a person who has had an NDE, and many will tell you that each of us goes somewhere after death. I know that the “other side” communicates with us, and wants nothing more than for us to be good to each other, to love one another, and to find something that each of us have in common, which I have found as the “I AM” in each of us. For instance I (AND I’M SURE EVERYONE ELSE) likes being told the truth and doesn’t like being told a lie, so the real me is “I AM TRUTH”, or I like it when people do things to me, my person or my property, with my agreement and not without my agreement, so the real me is “I AM AGREEMENT”. Or, I would like to be helped by others if I am stuck in a certain situation so if I see other people in that same situation, offer them help when and where I can, so the real me is “I AM HELP PEOPLE IN NEED”, which to me is “I AM LOVE”. In fact doing all three is “I AM LOVE” and at the same time is “I AM RIGHTEOUS”. It is when we stray away from treating others different than I AM that we separate ourselves from I AM, and the only way back to I AM is through truth and forgiveness.
R.A. McGough,
Richard, in my previous comment I said “Now a criminal, say someone who assaults someone else, or a thief, or a robber, or a rapist, or a murderer, they have done these actions, by their very definition, against their victims agreement, and hence, have relinquished their right to agree or not agree to themselves being restrained by others so that they cannot harm anyone again”.
I need to add this: We respond to lies and trespasses in proportion to the lie or the trespass, but we do not take an eye for an eye, but rather we restrain the lie or the trespass with truth and mercy, by restraining the transgressor, or fleeing, or turning the other cheek so that they can hit us on that one also. Rehabilitation with love not vengeance with hate and fear.
-Michael
R.A. McGough,
You said on the front page “For over a decade I was completely convinced it was proof of the divine inspiration of Scripture. In late 2009 my wife and I began questioning our beliefs and have since left the faith. Oddly enough, the evidence for the Bible Wheel withstood our skepticism though the Bible itself did not. What it means remains a “mystery””.
I believe this is probably the answer to that mystery: Some of which happened many years ago was God intervening in human affairs. Humans wrote it down, ie Ten Commandments, ie Jesus’ coming and teachings. Then man corrupted the surrounding parts of the Bible.
Man said what was to be attributed to God, but it was not righteous, so the power of Heaven left a truthful message hidden within the corruption.
Within the parables that Jesus spoke there is also a message, called the Kingdom of God, which is the way of righteousness, and it is within all of us. It is our “real” selves. Our real selves are part of God. We are not Gods, but part of the whole God. It is when we separate ourselves from God, that we muck up our lives and muck up the world. The truth teller and agreement doer knows where they are going, because it is a straight path, and the way is illuminated. The truth teller and agreement doer, if called to account for what they have done, comes to the light of day for all to see, but the liar and trespasser of agreements, if called to account for what they have done, many times seeks to hide in the darkness hoping that no one finds out the truth.
-Michael
R.A. McGough,
In my comment above I wrote “governments of the world and the swords they wield are ordained by God (Romans 10 I believe, and Paul I believe)”.
It is actually Romans 13.
-Michael
Searchers for truth, Jesus was “without sin” (Hebrews 4:15), holy and undefiled (Hebrews 7:26), the only One who has ever lived on earth who “knew no sin” (2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus is good.
When He declares in John 10:11 that He is the good Shepherd He is declaring that He is God, for only God is good!
Dear readers, goodness flows from God Himself!
Jesus invites man to follow Him, for the only means of doing good by God’s ultimate standard daily is to be born again from above and to faithfully follow Lord Jesus Christ.
Enjoy your Bible studies!
Richard, interesting stuff. Since I haven’t read all your articles, please forgive me if I am asking a question you have already answered. I came across your site when I was researching numbers.
Since you are so interested in Gematria, I wonder if you ever sought to understand scripture via Jewish, rather than Christian interpretive methods? Are you familiar with PaRDeS? Do you get that many of the stories are not meant literally, but midrashically? I find this way of looking at things far more intellectually honest, and there is no right and wrong answer. Greek thinking says what you believe is most important, while Hebrew thinking says what you do is most important. I was listening to a video by Rabbi David Fohrman a while back, and he noted that torah has no punishment for atheism; it isn’t even mentioned. There was another rabbi (forgot name) who said, “The God you don’t believe in, I don’t believe in either.”
I also agree that religion is something we need to mostly toss, and it derails people from their divine destiny while purporting to assist. It allows and encourages all sorts of abuses. But I also believe that it is arrogance to insist that our limited human minds and rational abilities can plumb the depths or are in a legitimate position to pass judgement on a being far beyond us. You know that in the US system of justice, we are granted a jury of our peers?
I find evangelicals especially to be sometimes well-meaning, but ignorant, and either dishonest or purposefully close-minded. I noticed that when I tried asking difficult questions or pointing out discrepancies, all I got was labels, name-calling and deletion and blocking. Now atheists tend to be angrier and use profanity and vitriol, but at least they don’t shut down the conversation. One person apologized to me and said she hoped the conversation could continue. I think atheists enjoy talking to a person that at least thinks and is not indoctrinated. Although, we are all subject to biases.
I like this quote by Abraham Joshua Heschel (one of my favorite authors) “When I was young, I admired a man for his cleverness, but now that I am old, I admire a man for his kindness.” Atheists may be smarter, but religious people tend to be kinder. Okay, sometimes they are only kind to those who believe the way they do or at least don’t threaten them.
Unlike institutional religion, it is okay with me that I don’t understand everything and don’t have an answer for everything. “Greeks learn in order to understand; the Hebrew learns in order to revere,” – another Heschel favorite. I appreciate what you and others are sharing because: “Who is wise? He who learns from all men. Who is strong? He who controls his passions.” Pirkei Avot.
This is an article I wrote, with a different twist that what you may have heard from all sides. I am not spamming your blog, so go ahead and delete it if you like. http://endtimechaverim.wordpress.com/2014/03/19/can-god-use-atheists-can-god-use-religious-people/
Having faith in God is believing in Him (1st) and then obeying Him (2nd). Without the 2 elements there is no faith. But without noticing what is good about Him, you can not have faith because there is no reason to investigate His goodness. It’s a matter of perspective. And as time goes on, that perspective becomes more and more mature. We are lost and we can see that if we are honest. At any moment, there could be a “knock at the door”. The wake up call that we never expected or wanted. So, God saves us when that happens by using our faith to take us through what we can never understand but He can. He saves us in proportion to the faith we have in Him. So we can march confidently when there is the “knock at the door” and we can praise Him when the disaster proves His worth. But not only does the bible tell us these things it also tells us about those who not only refuse to investigate His goodness, but foolishly and actively work against Him and His plan of salvation. God warns them just as He warned the chosen 12 tribes, that there are consequences for their evil. Should God abandon His plan of salvation or should He stop those who would stop Him? If you say “But God destroyed men, women, children and animals.” I would say that there was such an evil among them perhaps even genetic, that the only way to protect the rest of His creation was to do what He did. And they had a choice not to do evil things like rape virgins and burn their babies to sacrifice to their fake gods who were not even alive. No, God is good and He loves us enough to send Yeshua to show us that love and to show us how to love Him back. For me, I want to learn That way and I know it means I’ll get hurt because others will mistreat me, but I won’t get destroyed because I will march confidently knowing whatever comes, He will always be with me.
I think without the doctrine of hell, half of the followers would drop off within 6 months. They might believe, but they wouldn’t follow because they’d find the faith itself repugnant and simply choose other things in life to focus on.
I now feel sorry for modern liberal Christians who instead of condemning homosexuality or drugs, have to “struggle” with it, in order to be simultaneously God-fearing and decent. To be truly faithful, you really do have to suppress your moral instincts. I was like this only a year ago, and I’m angry at myself for it. How could I have been such a sucker?
People here keep saying, “Come to Him. He wants you in His life.” It’s nauseating. So where is this love? Would any parent here threaten to throw their children into a fire pit if they disobeyed? Not a single parent would do such a disgusting and vile thing. But why don’t they – do they think they’re better than God?
By my previous comment, I hope it’s understood I don’t think liberal Christians should condemn homosexuality or drugs. Quite the opposite: They should ask why they are “struggling”. Who are they carrying water for? Do they share his values? Or are they just afraid of being punished if they disagree?