Update: Comments on this thread are now closed because there are too many. I have reposted the article here. Comments in the new thread are welcome.
Since I began this website back in 2001, and during most of the decade that followed, I identified myself as a “Bible-believing Christian” in no uncertain terms. For example, here is how I described myself in my old FAQ (which remains on the old version of my site for historical purposes):
Are you a Christian? Protestant? Catholic?
Praise God, I am a man saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesian 2:8). I am a non-denominational blood-bought Bible-believing Trinitarian Christian. I believe that the true “faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3) is well stated in the early creeds of the church that Christ founded.
Likewise, here is my testimony about the purpose of my website on the old homepage:
To this end I labour, to glorify the Triune God; to glorify the Father Almighty, Creator of all, to glorify His Son Jesus Christ my Saviour and Hope, and to glorify the Giver of all divine gifts, my Comforter, Guide, Teacher and Friend, God the Holy Spirit. To You be the glory, thrice holy blessed God of Eternity! To You be the glory, now and forevermore. Amen. Amen. Amen.
And here are the thanks I gave to Christ on my old About page:
I remain eternally grateful to my Lord Jesus Christ, the King of the Universe, for shedding His Light upon me and guiding my path – usually without my knowledge – and giving me both the burning desire and the ability to proclaim the neverending wonders of His Holy Word. Oh! The wonders of His Grace! Had He left me to myself, doubtless I’d be dead or wandering aimless and lost through this dark world. Thank you, my Lord!
So, that’s where I was at for most of the last couple decades. How then is it possible that I now reject the faith I once believed with such passion? What changed? The answer is really pretty simple. I was “blinded” by the light I saw in the Bible. Anyone who has entered in to the Bible with believing eyes knows how it can capture the soul. It feels alive. It touches chords that resonate down into the deepest parts of ourselves. It seems to be filled with light everywhere you look: the Gospel message shines with its numinous symbolic elements like the Alpha Omega, the Cross, the Dove, the Death and Resurrection of Christ, and on and on it goes. Who wouldn’t want to believe such a story? Indeed, the believer wonders how anyone could resist such an amazing Gospel message. And beyond all that, I had the overwhelming witness of the Bible Wheel which seemed to confirm everything about the Bible as the very Word of God. All these things blinded me to the “dark side” of the Bible. I simply “overlooked” all the problematic passages, errors, contradictions, and moral abominations that didn’t fit with the amazingly glorious, and blinding, vision of the Bible as “God’s Word.”
So here are three of the primary issues that conspired to finally convince me that the traditional Christian faith is not true:
1) The Doctrine of Hell
I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians. It always bothered me throughout my time as a Christian, but I put it on the “back burner” and didn’t think about it much.
2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.
This point covers a very large class of problems. Many recent threads on my forum deal with them. The most significant to me are the moral abominations attributed to God, such as his command to kill all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan.
3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
This fact seems incontrovertible and it directly contradicts the central promises of the Bible. It was the “final straw” for me. It has nothing to with any personal prayers that were not answered. The problem is that the promises in the Bible simply are not true.
There were many other issues, such as the general corruption of institutional Christianity (as witnessed by the ongoing cover-up of Ergun Caner’s decade of lies) and the general gullibility and anti-intellectualism of Christians (as witnessed by Harold Camping predicting the end of the world on May 21, 2011 and being given $81,000,000 by his brain-dead followers even after his previous failed date), but this is a pretty good overview. I would be delighted to discuss these points in detail with anyone interested.
In my next post, I will begin reviewing the Bible Wheel book to see what it looks like without my “blinders” on. I am very curious because as far as I know, all the evidence for the apparently “supernatural” design in the Bible remains true. This is the great mystery that now confronts me. The evidence for the Bible Wheel remains despite the obvious flaws in the Bible. So what does it mean? I don’t know yet, and before trying to come to a conclusion, I feel a need to critique my own book with the same honesty I have critiqued the Bible upon which it is based.
Richard,you can shake off the title of “Christian’ if it’s more comfortable to do so.What is within you doesn’t need a title,it just needs to be.Besides,many who claim that title of “christian” rarely allow themselves to be “Christ-like”.While others don’t need that title at all to be “like-Christ.”
That’s true Glen. Thanks for the reminder. But I have shaken off much more than a mere label like “Christian.” I have shaken off the false ideas of the traditional Christian faith concerning the nature of God and the Bible.
In many ways,so have I.But I also understand that perhaps if more ‘Christians”could see the mystery of Christ in those who don’t bear that title,their eyes might be opened.
Richard, God is a God of Justice and Mercy. When God cast satin from Heaven to earth many angels fell with him. We live in a world where there are children of the devil and Children of a Holy God. Only A Soverign Holy God could know who-is-who and He must act accordingly. We shouldn’t use human reasoning to understand the deep mysteries of God Almighty. Please know that your Savior Jesus will not let the devil snatch you from His hand. Jesus doesn’t care about a religion with you, but He does want to continue a personal relationship with you; no lables neccessary. God led me to your bible wheel website several years ago and it has been invaluable to me. Praise God that you took the time to share it with us. The gematra reference is most useful as God uses numbers to guide me. Thank you! I have written an e-book, “Calling America To beOne” Feel free to email me and I will forward it to you. Charlie
Hi Charles,
Thanks for your heartfelt message, and I am glad that my site has helped you over the years. But I don’t understand what you mean when you say that we “shouldn’t use human reasoning to understand the deep mysteries of God Almighty.” If we don’t use our “human reasoning” what are we supposed to use? I look and see Christians have generally become a pathetically gullible group that believes whatever they are told by every conman because they have been strongly discouraged from thinking or even asking questions. If we don’t think and use our critical judgment, what stops us from becoming fools that believe falsehoods?
And to be accurate, I’m not really trying to understand the “mysteries” so much as the basic meaning of the Bible. I know it contains many errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God. But I also know that it has many signs of “divine design” that make it seem like it was “inspired” in many ways. So I am now working to understand what it all means. That’s why I am beginning a critical review of the Bible Wheel book in which I will subject my own writings to the same brutal honesty that I have applied to the Bible. I hope to get the first article done today.
All the best,
Richard
PS: You misspelled “Satan” as “satin.” It always makes me laugh when folks do that. Makes me think of the silky fabric.
“Satin” makes me think of the kind of paint I usually buy. What I meant to say was that we shouldn’t completely “rely” on our human reasoning. Our understanding of God’s infinite ways are limited by our finite mind and what He chooses to reveal to us. Yes I agree, all people should, filter for the truth, Christian teachings as well as any other religious and non religious teachings. I maintain my personal relationship with Jesus not as a “Christian” but as His “Disciple” and His “Son.” Keep smiling Richard and please don’t become that “cynical guy.” Intelligence without wisdom is impotent!
Hey there Charles,
When you said that God had “cast satin from heaven” my mind was filled with images of long, colorful scarves raining down from the sky! LOL. It was pretty funny.
I am very much aware of the limits of my human intellect. But I don’t see any options. That’s why it’s important to keep an open mind, and to avoid fundamentalism and absolute proclamations. But on the other hand, there are many things which are sufficiently clear as to warrant essentially black and white judgments.
But as for “personal relationship with Jesus” – that is entirely private and personal. I’ve seen so many monsters, con-men, and deluded self-proclaimed prophets talking about their “personal relationship with Jesus” that the words mean absolutely nothing to me when coming from the mouth of another. And by symmetry, I know they should mean nothing to anyone else if they heard them from me, so I don’t use or respect those words. Sorry. They are just religious jargon.
And thanks for the reminder to “keep smiling.” That I can do. Indeed, I do it often. I know it might seem that I am “cynical” because I am answering people who are pushing various religious points of view, but that’s a very small part of me. In general, I am very happy. Maybe I should write a few posts about things that make me happy to balance things out.
Great chatting!
Richard
Hi Richard,
I found your statement about walking away from the gospel very interesting!
Have you ever been to a graveyard and seem someone come out of it? The Bible is very clear that we “ALL” are to be dead in Christ, alive by His Spirit, and we do that by dying daily to ourselves, that is, to our fleshly desires. The LORD STILL LOVES YOU, AND IS MARRIED TO YOU, even if you have baclslidden. You’re going to do it God’s Way, or God’s Way. THere is no other way. Enjoy, and Be Blessed!
Hi John,
I appreciate your encouragement. But when you put it that way, it makes all the striving to be “good” and to repent of “sin” look like a waste of emotional energy since God is the only true “Actor” on this stage and we are just predetermined “props.” Do you identify as a “Calvinist?” If we are all dead corpses, then how can we be responsible for anything or held accountable for sin? Corpses don’t sin and can’t be held responsible.
Not to discourage you, but I have long felt that the kind of theology you suggest is incoherent both logically and biblically. It is this kind of vain philosophical theology that drove me from Christianity. I have long jokingly referred to the Calvinist Westminster Confession of the Faith as the “Confusion of the Faith” because in one breath it asserts that “God ordains whatsoever comes to pass” and that this “does no damage to the freedom of the creature, but rather establishes it.” I could never trust a house with such an explicitly self-contradictory assertion built into its foundation. But the main alternative – Arminianism – is no better. And neither is the Roman Catholic doctrine from which the Protestant doctrines sprang any better. If anything, I would side with the Greek Orthodox branch which has the superior Incarnational Theology. But that has it’s own set of problems, so it looks like it’s “every man for himself” when it comes to religious dogmas. I finally concluded that none are correct and that conclusion is strengthened every day as I think about it more. But there still might be something to the Bible and the “core” Christian metaphors … but I don’t know yet what that might be.
All the best,
Richard
Hi Richard,
I stumbled upon this site through Google and have had fun exploring it’s wisdom. When I read this post, my heart broke, but despite not personally being aware of your struggles, I felt compelled to offer some encouragement.
The questions and doctrinal theories you struggle with are not uncommon, and I’ve personally witnessed some of the most brilliant and passionate believers go through similar processes in recent times. To understand the entire concept of the Bible Wheel and it’s mysteries shows that you are ridiculously intelligent and that you innately know there is more beyond what we can see with our eyes.
I cannot answer the questions you pose, for I know in trying to do so, would be as fruitless as trying to “hold the entire ocean in a cup”. Any person who can definitely answer every question is working from their head and not of the wisdom of God because His word clearly states that “His ways are not our ways”. If I found it possible to truly understand God, than it is certain that my god is not the God of the Bible as I don’t believe any human is wise enough to understand the majesty that He is.
One of my biggest struggles on my spiritual journey was the need to understand what could not be known. I had to make peace that no matter how brilliant I wanted to be, no matter if I followed the Bible or the Quaarn or any other source of wisdom, there are things in this life that do not make sense to me. My choice was simply to “have (blind) faith like a child” and believe in what I DID know.
What do I know? I know that I’ve seen, experienced, and been apart of things that can not be explained by the wisdom of this world. I know that, historically, there is more evidence that Jesus of Nazareth walked this Earth than there is that Julius Ceasar had, and if Jesus was able to do all that He said He could do, I will trust in the one He trusted in, which is the Lord of the Hebrew scriptures. I still fail to understand certain concepts and doctrines, but there is just too much evidence to the contrary (in my opinion) for me to believe in anything other than what this Book states.
Hi Ami,
I really appreciate your post. It is authentic and heartfelt. And I very much agree that there are things I will never understand about the Bible. Unfortunately, my problem is not so much with the things I don’t understand as with the things that I do. For example, I understand that the way God is portrayed in many places in the Old Testament simply cannot be true. The true God did not order the murder of every man, woman, and child in the promised land as stated in Deuteronomy:
As I said, there is nothing “hard to understand” about that passage. It’s perfectly clear what it states. The problem is with the wickedness of the command. It is evil. There were any number of ways an omnipotent God could have removed those people from the land. He did not have to brutalize his own people by turning them into cruel and heartless mass murders of women and children to accomplish the task.
But I know what you are getting at. You are saying that these “hard things” in the Bible really are true and really do represent the will of the Eternal God and when we get to heaven it will all makes sense. But that approach doesn’t work, because it’s a mere assertion that is based on the prior assumption that everything in the Bible is true. Why should anyone believe that? I can imagine you saying that I of all people have reason to believe the Bible is true because I have strong evidence that the whole book was designed by a supernatural intelligence. I agree – but that only exacerbates the problem because it implies the Bible was designed so that any honest and intelligent person MUST reject it as the “literal Word of God.” In other words, the highest view of Scripture says that it is as God intended, and that implies that God deliberately designed it to look like it is filled with errors, contradictions, and moral abominations. And if that’s how God designed it, then he must have done that to prevent any honest and intelligent person from thinking it is the “inerrant and infallible Word of God.” In other words, if God designed the Bible, we must conclude that he designed it so that Biblical Fundamentalism would be a logical impossibility.
Now as for your idea that there is more evidence for Jesus than Julius Caesar. I know a lot of Christians say that, but it is simply not true. Its absurdity is immediately obvious to anyone with the slightest knowledge of history. Just Google “Jesus Christ Julius Caesar more evidence” and you get all the evidence you need. We have the likeness of Julius Caesar carved in stone and imprinted on coins made in his time. He wrote voluminously and had contemporary authors who wrote about him. The evidence for Jesus is nothing like this. Here is a good article that sums up the evidence (though I don’t necessarily agree with everything else it says).
It is exceedingly unfortunate that Christians spread such obvious falsehoods that are so easily refuted. It makes Christians look foolish and justifies the rejection of the religion that encourages such mindless gullibility. And this exemplifies another reason I quit the faith. After years of reading the attempts by professional Christian apologists and pastors to defend the Bible, I have become convinced that they are, as a group, deluded, weak-minded, and willing to twist words to support falsehoods. Their arguments are not merely questionable, they are often absurd in the extreme. They are trying to defend the indefensible, and since this problem is essentially universal amongst them, I have a strong confirmation of the validity of my judgment that traditional Christianity is not true, and worse, the attempt to believe it corrupts the mind.
I know these are hard words for a sensitive and loving Christian woman like you, but I feel that you, and everyone reading, deserves to be told the truth to the best of my ability. Don’t hesitate to write with any followups.
All the best,
Richard
Richard,
I fully understand your position. What I have found that has made a tremendous difference to me is that my “definition” of what is moral was skewed. If I start with a human concept then I fail, in my opinion. What we call death, is that such a terrible thing that we should judge others? Didn’t Y’shua state that terminating a relationship is just as ‘bad’ as killing? Where I used to suffer was in making things fit into my way of thinking and then applying that to Elohim, as if He had to act and respond within my limits to be holy, just, righteous and perfect. Tell me, how much leaven can be left in the dough…and it be clean?
While in the church I was to blame for my lemming-like ways of fitting in to the proscribed actions, allowed statements and proper protocol of the church, to include its dogma. It was a class conconscious affair and had little room for anyone being different. Yet I supported it and nutured it and was happy to ‘pet my dragon’ (I love Peretti’s, The Oath) rather than stand for what I believed down deep was actually true.
I can’t help but feel that you are suffering from a response of a church-like type to the refutation of concepts that we men have hatched in our effort to properly define and present our god. He requires no such defense from us. In fact His Word teaches that we are to prepared to give a defense for what we believe, not for Him.
I will pray for you and I will be ever ready to speak with you, not as someone who has the answers but as someone who is searching out the invisible, immortal Elohim…and learning so much more now that I have started to learn to throw off the fetters of christianity in favor of faith. A belief and not a religion centered way of life. May Elohim guide you and bless you in your way, if you only will admit He is there and does desire you.
Stephen
Hi Stephen,
Thanks for your great post and kind offer of help. It’s very encouraging. You are correct, the screwed up churches have indeed left an impression on me. I can see how institutional Christianity can help folks lost in drugs or whatever, but they offer nothing much beyond that. If you go for more than a few years, you will begin to see that they have no real relationship to “God” more than anyone else. And then you read the book, and you see that it contains all sorts of crap that no one would have any reason to accept. It’s not a matter of my “human understanding” acting like leaven on “God’s perfect Word” or something like that. The problem is that the Bible contains many things that are just plain wrong and any mature person must accept that and learn to deal with it.
So I would be very interested to know what you think of the Bible. Do you believe it all? Some of it? How do you understand it? Does it matter what a person believes? Personally, I reject the idea of “salvation” based on “belief.” Do you think I am wrong about that? If not, then it would seem that there is not much left in the Bible, except perhaps something very mystical. I know it has played a central role in the development of the “planetary psyche” – the structure of civilizations and the history of ideas. So it is a very “significant” book no matter how we understand it.
I’m still working on how to understand it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Richard
Richard,
Man, a lot there to chew on. So just like trying to eat an elephant…maybe one bite at a time?
Do I believe that salvation is based on belief? No way. The demons believe and tremble. I take that to mean that just believing is not sufficient. I find it interesting that the Word has much to say about works that the Church today quickly throws aside. I think this is mostly based on the teachings of former Christians (3rd century??) and not on the Word itself. As a former pastor, I know the difference in actual study and in formally recognized processes taught in seminary as substitutes. Paul had much to say about dispensing with the fables of old and to me, the Church has jumped right into that arena along with Judaism. They just haven’t codified it in a Mishnah.
I can’t see where belief is anything when it stands alone. Without the action that puts that belief (faith?) into use, making it something and not something to talk about, I don’t see where the value lies. A few verses that team together (Yeah, I really like what you have done with the Bible Wheel) draws a more clear picture I think.
1. James 2 (pick a verse) “Faith without works is dead.”
2. Galatians 2:16 “Salvation is not of works, but by faith”
3. Romans 11:6 “Grace only eliminates works, works only eliminates grace”
A conundrum? I don’t think so.
I think that the Word is telling me that my belief must be something I put into action or better said my faith; that when I do, He does as He promised. When I rebel, He responds as He promised. Action – reaction, a covenant. Yet, my faith is not enough in and of itself because the requirement is to do (James 4:17, Micah 6:8). As a father, my children may say something but I don’t count them as knowing it, really meaning it until I see them put that statement into action. When my daughters tell their friends, “I love having things neat” that is quickly undone when I walk into their room and see the carnage of clothes. They may actually love things to be neat and tidy but until they take the action themselves it is useless babble, vain utterances.
So in the doing of the work (keeping the instructions given by Elohim to Moshe) I now have an evidence of what I really want. My desire is seen and demonstrated. Yet there is more here. If I simply do the work because it is out of an expectation, (Mom and Dad will not ground me, they will get off my back if I just clean my room) then I haven’t fulfilled the intent of those instructions, I’ve just accomplished something for a selfish goal. If my goal is to demonstrate love, compassion, desire for other’s benefit, then my doing is based on that and no thought of my reward. Selfless rather than selfish.
So I see salvation as a thing that is not gained in this life (as yet). How can salvation/atonement be given if the high priest has yet to come back out of the Holy of Holies to annouce it? How can we assume we have something if Y’shua, acting as the high priest is still present with Elohim? So for me salvation is something that I enter into, a process which moves across the span of my life (whatever amount is remaining) and is culminated when the proclamation comes forth. When atonement is announced, am I in the book?
As a former Baptist, eternal salvation was the cornerstone for a happy life. Ezekiel 18 tells me all that I need to know about understanding Philippians 2:12-13. That doesn’t diminish my view of Y’shua and the free gift of salvation in the least. The gift was given, now what will I do WITH that gift? I don’t fear the next breath and my state of being good or bad equalling an automatic ticket to heaven or hell, my eternity is based on my heart, that doesn’t just flip any second, my intentions may and my attitude certainly can, but not my heart.
So, what do yo make of my thoughts on salvation and my rejection of belief being anything to do with it? Is there room in your heart for obedience? If so then the next topic might be the concept of a servant in the doing of the work of salvation, eh? You tell me. I am certain that the point you find yourself in is still within the bounds of brotherhood. I know that He who began a good work in you will perfect until the day of Y’shua’s return (Yom HaKipporim) as Meshiach ben David, the conquering Messiah. And I am certain that in discussing these things a brother can be restored and that, if nothing else, is the greatest thing that I could ever hope for.
No, I am not a Messianic Christian. I am a man who tries to live faithfully, loving others and seeing myself in a community of the upright. I am Hebraic, not Judaic. I am a bond servant who loves his master, his wife and his children. To live is Messiah, to die is gain.
Be blessed,
Stephen
Hi Stephen,
I really appreciate your post, but I feel like you have passed the elephant back to me. You brought up many things. Concerning Y’shua returning as “Messiah ben David” – that doctrine was invented rather recently and I don’t think it is valid (nor did I when I was a Christian). And neither do I believe he will visibly return, and there certainly is no evidence that it would be on Yom Kippur. In general, I think the “Hebraic roots” movement is filled with errors that wanna-be teachers have recently made up. I hope you don’t find this offensive, I’m just sharing what I believe.
Now beyond all this, I think you might not have read my previous explanations. I do not believe that there is a “guy in the sky” style God who acts as an agent going about doing things. The Bible makes many promises about God being like a father who cares for his children and answers their prayers. But that simply is not true. We can do a simple statistical analysis and compare the prayers of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hebraic Believers – whatever – and we will see that God does not answer any of their prayers. This has forced me to conclude that the God of the Bible is not true. Therefore, the rest of your arguments relating to God “doing” something in response to our actions simply does not ring true. Sorry.
All the best,
Richard
Richard,
Offense? Nope, but I have to admit that I added some things in my last post to see what your reaction would be. In part to see if I could define a trend and I think I have. I get a hint of your defining me based on what your perception is of others who have similarities to me, e.g. “Hebraic roots” folks. I kind of had to smile when I read that…if you only knew.
Nevertheless, it does go to strengthen a point that I have been considering. Is your disatisfaction with an Elohim that would tell His people to kill every man, woman and child based on your perception of what a correct moral standing should be? Better said, are you determining what is right in your eyes and then demanding that someone greater than you with a greater perspective must then fit within those parameters?
Obviously you have been around folks who lament that their “life is over”, or “I’m ruined/done for”, pick the phrase, that in essence means that the person sees an end to themsleves based on their circumstances. Yet while they were going through this time you perhaps had a different point of view, you were not mired firsthand in the situation so you could then present a point of view that was more objective?
So why do I write to you? To convince you of something? To get a notch in my belt for having triumphed a cause? To feel better about myself because I’ve had doubts and this is my therapy? Gosh I hope not for any of those. I can’t convince you of a thing. I cannot sway your heart and I cannot judge your heart. That belongs to the Spirit, not me. But I can put you in remembrance of things you already once knew. The difference here is that I might be able to show you somethings that you percieved one way and get you to see them from a different way.
If I were to know what congregation you last fellowshipped with I might make the asumption as to what you mean when you type or what you believe and how you think. I have read your blogs and frankly I see something different in them than you say. I see you as wanting to understand and you are dispensing with the ‘canned’ church definitions as being erroneous, incomplete, etc. So ruling out the ‘guy in the sky’ is not necessarily wrong. Denying Elohim totally would be and that is a lonely road in that you would fail to know Him and to have a relationship with Him.
You say that we could use statistical analysis to prove that prayers are not answered. Define a prayer. Define an answer to prayer. Are you using what the church teaches on these ideas as the premise that they don’t exist? Do you have a definition of your own and feel that this doesn’t exist?
You state that you are forced to believe that the god of the bible is not true, yet you still capitolize the words ‘god’ and ‘bible’, is that just habit? Are you disconsolate over what you have ‘known’ being unsupportable and drawn that to a greater conclusion? So if the church experience you have had has left you with erroneous/incomplete (fill in the blank) concepts for Elohim, then why do you fight against them or deny His existence? Why should He be confined to what church dogma teaches? And more importantly why should you confine your argument to that dogma?
I could type 20,000 words on the evidence of answered prayer in my life and in the lives of others I know. Doesn’t matter though. You could easily dismiss that based on issues with the terminology and concepts that I share. The point then is what do you think. Are we a random accident of discharged gases and pools of oosing fluids, with a little lightening thrown in just like Frankenstein?
Dude (I use this as the same thing as “verily, verily”) where is your heart as opossed to your mind right now? What does that blood pumpin’ muscle tell you? Are you alone and isolated and love is a chemical reaction? Is your bride just another accident that lives with you but not much more? Did we invent a god just to feel better about ourselves or to help police ourselves?
Yes, I have thrown the elephant back to you, because it’s your elephant to start with. My faith is my own and yet I am a part of other faithful followers at the same time. You have told us what you think god isn’t, now tell us what you think God is. Please don’t presuppose what I mean based on what others have said. I have a defense for what I believe and it is not based on any other persons concepts, only my own. I worship with like-hearted folks. What do you believe?
Still praying, still hoping, still here,
Stephen
Hey there Stephen,
Thanks for the great post! You wrote:
I’m really glad you took no offense, since none was intended. I wasn’t trying to “define” you – that would be silly since I don’t know you – I was only commenting as best I could given what you had said. I’m sure there will be a lot of “back and forth” before I have any confidence that I could “define” you in any way at all.
Everyone either “determines what is right and wrong in their own eyes” or let’s someone else do it for them. You either make your own decisions or someone does it for you.
So are you suggesting that it is morally OK for God to brutalize his people by commanding them to become heartless cruel cold-blooded killers of women and children? If so, then you have “determined” your own morality in accordance with your own idea that the Bible is the “Word of God” and must be believed and accepted in every particular. But there is nothing in the Bible that defines the Bible, let alone that tells you how it should be interpreted. And everyone interprets it differently, so once again you must “determine what is right or wrong in your own eyes.” You have no option, unless you want to abdicate your autonomy and hand it over to some cult leader like the Pope or some preacher man.
Obviously? Where did you get that idea? I really don’t know what you are talking about. Everyone I know is doing just fine, and my wife and I are daily rejoicing in our new found freedom. What did I say that made you think those thoughts?
I’m all ears!
What do you mean when you say “Elohim?” If not the “guy in the sky” style God who goes about doing things like answering prayers, then what? Personally, I think God is probably best described along the lines of “Ground of Being” if at all … but I don’t really know if there is a “personal” God but I tend to think so … but what I do know is that the “Yahweh Elohim” of the Bible is not an accurate representation of the true God if there is one. Any insight you might have to offer along these lines would be most welcome.
When I speak of statistics, my point is that the prayers of Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Christians and everyone else are answered with equal frequency, which is either zero or so close to zero as to be statistically insignificant. This means that the God of the Bible is not true.
I define prayer as asking God to watch over, protect, and provide for the earthly needs for me and my loved ones, just like the Bible says. Pretty simple stuff. That such a God exists is the central claim of both the Bible and Christianity. It is a false claim. That’s all I was talking about. If there is a “spiritual” aspect of reality, and perhaps some sort of God or “cosmic mind” that responds to my focused attention and to which I can be “attuned” to “get with the Divine flow” then Great! Sign me up. But I cannot conceive of a God who is an “agent” who runs around “doing things” like a bit player in the cosmic drama.
It is mostly habit, but there is also an intellectual distinction between “god” and “God.” Small g usually implies one god amongst others, whereas capital G signifies the “one true God” of monotheism if one exists. Merely using the capital letter does not imply anything about my personal beliefs. As for the Bible, it is a proper noun and should be capitalized.
I don’t think I am “disconsolate” about anything having to do with Christianity. I’m quite mystified as to what the Bible Wheel means, but I am not sad about becoming free from religious shackles.
I am not confining myself to church dogma at all. But your question leads me to ask where do you get your concept of “Elohim” if not from Christian tradition (which includes the Bible, of course)?
And if ten of those words were objectively verifiable you would be world famous as the first man with proof of God.
I am quite confident that we are the product of evolution, but I don’t know how it all started, and I recognize that there is a big problem with the origin of DNA and life. But I also know that if I were born a mere thousand years ago I would been forced to assume that every creature was directly created by God because I would have known nothing of science. I also might have believed that the earth was only 6000 years old. So I have no discomfort being ignorant about ultimate questions. I am a human and we humans have very little knowledge. I’m good with that, even as I struggle to learn more every day.
I am filled with love and hope and joy and freedom. I’m feeling better than I have in ten years. I love being free from the deception of religion.
We all have amazing experiences. If you were Muslim, you would attribute them to Allah. If Hindu, you would have your whole metaphysical world filled with supernatural beings and gurus guiding you to thank for your amazing experiences. If Christian, you thank Christ. The point is that we all have numinous experiences, and we map them onto whatever religion we’ve been taught or which we chose.
What do I believe? There you go, tossing the elephant back to me.
The simple truth is that I don’t know right now, and apparently it doesn’t matter. Indeed, it seems like it’s probably a good thing not to have a set of “beliefs” through which I filter reality. I just am. What more could anyone be?
But I am striving to understand reality. I’m doing a lot of reading to learn what others have discovered. And I am very thankful that you are participating in the process.
Great chatting!
All the very best,
Richard
Richard,
Good morning!
Do I exist? Do you exist? What proof do you or I have that either of us is a real person? Some data in a cogent fashion that each of us is able to interpret, with a specific destination? That makes us real? You have a nice photo but I don’t know if that is you or a model’s photo that you use.
Can order come out of chaos? There certainly is no empirical evidence of that occuring in nature that I am aware of. Yet we have ample proof of chaos coming out of order (again, I site my daughters’ room). Ever hear of the fibonachi number? That, not to mention your own DNA strand would seem to indicate order, pattern, a governing or directive nature. I can’t fathom a random beginning to a structured life.
Has anyone ever told you that something you said or did was an answer to prayer? I have been told that and I have said that to others because it was true, something they said or did was an answer to a prayer that I had been praying, a request made to Elohim (not the person). Does not the Word teach that we are made in the image of Elohim through Adam? So what proof do you require that Elohim does answer prayer? Do you require a visual sighting? Does He have to work in a way that you consider has value, outside of actually answering the prayer? Have you experienced a prayer that was by your reckoning never answered, or at least not answered as you would have thought it should have been?
So if you are involved in answering a prayer, was that just coincidence (assuming that you were unaware ahead of time that your action/statement would elicit that response) or was it a product of design at some level? Do you have or do you think that I have some special ability to know other’s unspoken needs and to be able to meet those with no prior planning or preparation?
I actually am thankful for the opportunity to dialogue with you on this. I am certainly thankful that you still are open to discovery. I pray that you will find what you are looking for and that this will include Elohim. I don’t define Him so I wont’ hope that you see Him just as I do…just that you see Him, know Him and experience the love of abiding with Him.
Have a great day!
Stephen
Good afternoon Stephen!
Folks stumble over the idea of “proof.” They get lost in a philosophical wasteland There are mathematical proofs and there are logical proofs and there are common-sense proofs and there are approximate proofs that give good reason to believe or not. The question “do I exist” is not subject to “proof” because it is axiomatic. The question “Do you exist” is a little more tricky, but why waste my time attempting to “prove” it?
As for order coming out of chaos – it happens all the time. It happens in dynamical systems (Prigogine got the Nobel for his research on this) and it happens in biological evolution. This is because there is an underlying order to reality called “natural law” or “the laws of physics.” They impose patterns on random phenomena. For example, what happens when you throw iron filings on a piece of paper with a magnet underneath? The filings fall randomly, but they make a pattern that reveals the underlying order imposed by the magnetic field.
As for answers to prayer – that happens all the time if you are inclined to believe because then you map whatever seems significant onto your belief. But this doesn’t mean that there are not authentic supernatural events or even “answered prayers” but it does mean that many people often attribute mere coincidences to God, Allah, the Cosmic Mind, the Secret of Attraction, or whatever. The problem is that folks are very gullible and they easily fool themselves. So I don’t discount the possibility of all sorts of supernatural events, but neither can I believe that there is a God of the “Bible variety” that actually answers prayers as a general rule.
What “proof” would I require that God answers prayers in the way described in the Bible? That’s easy – he’d just have to do what it says. For example, the sick would have to be actually healed meaning a doctor could verify it. And incidental personal anecdotes here or there don’t count. The conman Benny Hinn claims many headings at every one of his shows. Hank Hanegraaff asked him for his best three headings that could be confirmed by doctors. Benny complied, but not one panned out. My point is that there would have to be some sort of REALITY to the answered prayers which simply does not exist.
It’s not easy to discern between chance and design in my personal life because I am too closely involved and invested in everything having to do with me. So it’s very easy to fool myself. I have had enough experiences to evoke a sense of the “Divine” in my life, but so has everyone else (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whatever). So my personal experience doesn’t “prove” anything. It only motivates me to search more to discover the truth.
I watched an amazing video series about the de-conversion process. It begins with the very questions you asked concerning “proof” and specifically, epistemology and Descarte’s “cognito ergo sum”. The guy is absolutely brilliant. Here’s a link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9x_oa–KAc&feature=channel_video_title
This came to mind because the final stage of his de-conversion centered on his realization that he had been projecting his “numinous” experiences onto his concept of God. It was totally disorienting to him to realize that the “God” he thought was “out there” was really a creation of his own mind.
I too am very thankful too that we can talk about this.
All the best,
Richard
Richard,
Hope you are well. Hmm. Prigogine? Well I can’t say that I know a lot of folks that hold him in high respect these days. None of his theorhetical assumptions are provable, which means they remain theory and cannot be used for a basis of further extrapolation. He won a man-made prize, awarded by men? Not a defining statement for me in the scope of eternity. As to the magnetic flow, can you undo magnetism? Is it reversible? If you can you are on your way to fame and fortune.
How did magnetic lines ever form from a chaotic system? Chaos would mean that the flux was predominant, spin theory would not prevail as that in itself would be order, so spinning ‘objects’ of gas would not coalesce into solid forms. Magnetism in and of itself represents order, hence the filings on a sheet of paper forming a clear and distinct pattern with a magnet below. I can’t see where you can have chaos and any “law of nature” in the same scenario. The driving force of the resultant order of the filings was already present in the magnetic lines eminating from the magnet.
I watched the linked youtube video and have one of my own to share with you. Now mine is far less technical but it is demonstrative of what the Word teaches us in “coming to Him as a child”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBM854BTGL0&feature=related
For me this video is descriptive of what you have presented to me in determing how things work, the logic of the universe, etc. Since my perspective is limited and since science is predicated on one person moving on from another person’s hypothesis, theory, proof, axiom, etc. et al, I have determined for me that science is fine if left at a stage where it can help with understanding mechanics (per se) but not when it comes to explaining origination, cause and effect and final outcome. No human has the ability to be greater than the Creator who made him.
That Benny Hinn is a fraud, well you have no argument with me. Charlatainism is a vile thing to perpetrate on those who do not understand and an evil we could do without.
So for you to understand prayer/Elohim, you need another human’s point of view? You require another human to “show you the way”? We are all flawed, so who can do this for you? Any supposition we make is flawed as we are flawed, therefore we cannot define perfection. It requires an innocence rather than intelligence to know Elohim. The more we try to compartmentalize Him the further we get from the Truth.
The Word doesn’t teach us to use our mind to know Elohim. It teaches us to use our heart. So what does your heart say? Science eliminates the heart in favor of the mind, “If it’s truth your looking for, Dr. Tyree’s philosophy class in right down the hall.” – Indiana Jones.
A building doesn’t induce truth. A group of people rarely induces truth (in my experience); go for a walk outdoors, look at the things around you that have nothing to do with a human designer. Here is where I think you will find the Truth. I think the Truth you find will be a perspective all your own. No one else on the face of this earth was born to your parents, had the siblings you do (if you do), had all of the same experiences you have had, has the exact same physical realities that you do, etc. You are unique and as such your experience of Elohim will also be unique. You can’t get what you need to know about Elohim from anyone else. I don’t believe it will work.
One last thing. Don’t talk back to Darth Vader…he’ll get ya!
Have a great day,
Stephen
Hi Richard,
I must say I enjoyed your conversations. I admire your works on the bible wheel, and I am quite surprised by your turn from christianity. I ordered your book a few years back and came back to order a couple more for a couple of my friends that were interested in the study. I was shocked to see the statement why I turned from christianity. You said, I am set free from christianity… May I ask how were you set free from freedom? You were once a bond servant set free from the bonds of sin, and now you want go back into bondage. It reminds me of the Galations who were converting back to the law. You noted a scripture: Deuteronomy 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: 17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: Did God not destroy the Earth with a flood? Does that make Him evil? Is He not the judge? Doesn’t He have the right to judge? Do we deserve death, and if not why did Jesus go to the cross? Why did God come down from His throne to die for you? Even the angels ask God, why do you concern yourself with us humans. How can we being the clay even consider judging the potters intensions or motives? Does He not see whats in your heart before you even see yourself? Didn’t the Lord tell Peter He would deny Him 3x even though Peter was ephatic he would die for the Lord? Surely a person with your intellect has read these scriptures over and over, yet now you recant? What has occurred in your life to release you from the ultimate Love?
You haven’t seen evidence prayers being answered? You have to have kidding me? I see prayers answered daily! What have you been doing that you haven’t seen prayer answered? Have you submitted your self completely? Do you put others first? Where is your victory?
You talked about the false prophets and people who have claimed to be of our Father, but live otherwise…. didn’t Jesus state it would be this way? Didn’t He say we are known by our fruits? Shouldn’t we keep our eyes focussed on our Father, and not on others? I Know I am no match for a debate with you, but consider fasting and praying to your Father for an understanding, instead of seeking other spiritual mediums. I agree with your statements about many Christians who fail to discern false people who claim they know the end of the world, but did you really believe Harold? I for one am not looking for the end of the world, but the return of our Lord. Isn’t that our hope? Shouldn’t we be using our time wisely being about the Fathers business? Finally, I am not here to convince you of anything, but maybe I can get you to use the talent our Father has given you to look take another gander and what your rejecting? My dad wasn’t an educated man, but when I was going through college, I would seek his advice because he would direct me to find my own answers. I pray you will seek Him who set you free and ask for Him to reveal His spirit in you to find the answers your seeking. The answers are right inside you, but you are failing to see them. Pray the Father opens the door to your heart to see Him as truth! God bless you brother and I will be praying for you!
Tony
Wanted to share some resources. Did man’s creator ever guarantee all would be written reliably in a bible without error or mistranslation? Might truth and error together be knowable (even in advance) by truth? On earth, shall we not expect a saga involving questions between good and evil, and between truth and falsity, and things like that?
Regarding skepticism and questions:
http://www.logicalhierarchy.com/Logical_Hierarchy/Home/Entries/2009/2/2_Logic%2C_Faith%2C_and_Skepticism.html
Regarding whether the creator of earth will judge man:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/42756302/Watch-for-Signs-A-Thesis-on-the-Book-of-Revelation
Hi Tony,
I really appreciate your heartfelt comments, and I understand where you are coming from. But there are a lot of “assumptions” in your comments that I don’t think are valid. So I’ll walk through them one at a time:
Tony: May I ask how were you set free from freedom?
Are Christians really any more “free” than others? I don’t think so. The concept that Christians have been “made free from sin” is not really true. All honest Christians must admit that they often sin. This is one of the biggest problems I had with Christianity. Folks say words that have no real meaning.
When I said I was “free” I was talking about real tangible freedom. I was not talking about some abstract freedom like “freedom from sin” that has no reality. I was talking about freedom to think freely and act in accordance with my conscience which was often at odds with Christian doctrines and things taught in the Bible like the doctrine of hell (as mentioned in my post).
Tony: Did God not destroy the Earth with a flood? Does that make Him evil?
Not necessarily. But that was not my point. My point was that God’s command to kill all the men, women, and children in the promised land was evil. If he really wanted them dead, he should have done it himself. Why did he think it would be “good” to turn “his people” into merciless brutalized baby-killers? And that’s not the only immoral teaching in the Bible attributed to God. This is a real problem that has no solution as far as I can tell.
Tony: How can we being the clay even consider judging the potters intensions or motives?
We have no choice! How do you know that the Bible is true? Is that not a “judgment” that you have made. And when you accepted the concept of the Trinity – is that not a judgment that you made about the nature of God? And on it goes, there is no way we can avoid making such judgments unless we choose to be mindless robots. And besides, why did God give us a brain if he didn’t want us to judge these things?
Tony: I see prayers answered daily!
Yes, but the kinds of answers you have seen are not objectively verifiable. I have no doubt they seem completely real to you, but Muslims and Hindus say the same thing and if you did a statistical analysis you would find that the prayers of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and everyone else are answered with an equal frequency which is statistically indistinguishable from zero. I hope you see that I am merely speaking truth here. Humans believe what they want to believe and have selective memories. They often believe that their prayers get answered, but then they have elaborate excuses for God when he fails to ever answer any real prayers like those of a mother whose child just lost a leg. God has never restored a missing limb! Please think about that because that is what I mean when I say that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. And this is a huge problem because the Bible tells us that he does.
Tony: You talked about the false prophets …
It’s not just a few here or there. The entire leadership of Liberty University and the entire leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention and leading Christian apologists like Norm Geisler and John Ankerberg and many fundamentalist Christian ministries have actively conspired to cover up the TEN YEARS of blatant lies told by Ergun Caner. Liberty would never have “fired” him if they were not forced by other Christians whom they demonized. All of this is coming from people who claim to be “Christian.” I want nothing to do with them or their false beliefs which corrupted their minds. I despise the “fruit” that has grown from that tree.
I have no choice but to think for myself, and when I do that, I recognize that most of the “traditional Christian teachings” were invented by people that I would have despised, like the many evil leaders in the Roman Catholic Church that ruled Europe for over a thousand years. Think about that. Where was God during all those years? What was the fate of the souls that could not come to real faith because they were not able to read the Bible? Your modern concept of Christianity has no foundation in history.
Has Christianity really produced fruit worthy of God?
Tony: I Know I am no match for a debate with you …
Well, I hope that doesn’t stop you from having a conversation with me!
Again, I really appreciate your comments, and I know how confusing it must be to see someone like me change my mind.
All the best,
Richard
Okay Rich let’s talk. I am a Messianic Jew which is fancy for a Jew who knows Jesus is Lord. First off you can throw your little bible wheel away. Using gematria from the Hebrew works differently than most Christians realize. In fact Jewish people won’t let a person even begin to mess around with it until they are 30 years of age and firmly grounded in the Word of God. This is because it is likely for a weak believer to be led astray into things like Jewish mysticisms. Your first flaw is using the wheel to help with the bible. It is also clear that you window into the bible must line up with this wheel which is a mistake. Your issues with the bible and people are not some big mystery or something new, but have left you unable to navigate your walk because the glasses you’re looking thru are flawed. The word of God is not something you have to judge to be his word or not. It is something you come to believe by revelation alone. This revelation is depended on God giving it to you. Salvation cannot be won by man but it is depended on God to reveal himself to man. Every revelation in the Old Covent was thru God and then written. God came to man not the other way around. It is why two people can read the same bible and one come away with understanding and another only see rubbish and fables.
God clearly states that not everyone who calls him Lord is his in the bible. He is aware of false teacher’s false prophets and Godless pastors of different churches around the world. He is also aware that people say a lot of things they don’t even know to be the truth. They are bread to be mindless thru bad doctrines and never grow up in their faith because of evil men or men without understanding. This is why God says for every idol word a man speaks he will give an account for. However you are not excused from your own walk before God just because someone else is in error.
Behold the goodness and severity of God. When you speak of hell and its existence you speak as a human looking thru fallen eyes at a perfect God. You speak as one who has no understanding of the heart of God. He is a God who owed us nothing and gave us all things freely. He gives every human the choice to go to hell or repent. Have you not read that God is not willing that any should parish? You also have no understanding of sin and its effects on the heart of God my father or how it corrupts everything if allowed to survive. If someone was to come and do your son harm would you not defend him? Would you not do everything in your power to ward off the enemy? Every person would who is in their right mind. When God allows people to be killed or spared you must look at who these people are. God is a good father who knows all things and simply protected his kids from the world that would not receive him from time to time. By the way, many people did join themselves to the Jewish people in history and God blessed them. In Jonahs day God called to him to tell the people of Nineveh to repent and they did. Do you know these people had a custom of skinning people alive and bragging about how long they could keep them alive while doing so? This is one reason why Jonah was angry and did not want to go to Nineveh. He knew and confessed that God was a good God full of mercy and would relent if Nineveh would repent. He wanted judgment on these people yet God in his mercy saved them. Jonah was right to feel angry but he lacked the very thing he confessed God to be. ( sounds like some people today doesn’t it) God didn’t strike Jonah down. He used the situation to teach Jonah and save people. What a good God! People who are Gods are saved from sin but must be cleansed from the effects of sin. Sure there is a bad teaching out there that leads people to run around saying they are free from sin without the work it takes day by day. If they are Gods however he will help them come to the understanding of this and grow them up. Have you not heard the saying, Count the cost before you take up your cross?
How about Rom 6:16 NLT don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. You have to fight daily to overcome and slowly you are changed from one measure of glory to another. Likewise you can be a slave to sin knowing the truth. The ones who are free are the ones who obey God and work out their salvation before God over time.
People are fickle and like sheep. In the world we live in we judge others by their actions at the moment they do whatever we see. Yet God judges the heart and as Jesus said to Peter, what is it to you what I do with John? You follow me! God knows that if we look to the outward man we fall prey to judgments of others that will lead us into a snare. As you have been led into one yourself. With that being said you really have no right to sit as a judge of others because you are limited by being human and fallen. This doesn’t mean you can make a judgment of one’s works or fruits because God did call us to do that. He even said to try the spirits to see if they be of God or not. This is one place where using your brain God gave you is relevant. So yes you flee from dead works and protect yourself from false things but you also humble yourself as a little child. Why? Because the wisdom of men is truly foolishness. The people of the world have no light or understanding apart from the mercy of God. Or did not God say, I rain on both the just and unjust as I see fit? He even will show kindness to those who utterly deny him. In this way no one can stand before him and accuse him. He is a good God who knows all things. You assume too much of your brain and so called freedom. I think you do see error but how you deal with it is where you have fallen.
The bible, Old Covenant and New Covenant can have translation difficulties simply because of language gaps. This doesn’t make the bible in error but it has challenges and must be studied in context of history, in principal of God’s character and nature, overall reference to the verse, chapter, book, whole of the text of God’s Word, and the witness of the Spirit of God in us (revelation)
Personally I will testify that God does answer prayer and I have personally watch God do miracles you claim he doesn’t do. Here is a few,
My mother had a missing tooth and prayed for a new one. She got it.
My father ripped his pinky finger out of place and prayed God to heal it because the pain was too great. His finger snapped into place.
One day driving down the road a semi almost hit my family and me. I say almost because somehow our car was lifted over the semi and it was as if time stood still while our car went over the top of the guy’s hood. I had a praying momma.
One day while my sister was out partying I had a dream that she died that night. I prayed in my dream and cried for her. Come to find out she did die and the medics had to use shock paddles to start her heart again.
Another time my sister was bit by a brown recluse spider and her skin began to rot. I went away and prayed for her. Guess what? She was healed in the same hour of her bit.
Another time one of my sisters was on a hill cleft diving into a lake. I was behind her and on the way she slipped and fell from the rock. Somehow I was able to hold her entire weight with one hand and as fast as lighting grab a branch to hold both of us with the other hand. Must have been that daily prayer I pray over my family every day. These are all witnessed by someone other than me and verified. Some prayers deal with things unseen so when they are answered to ask for proof is like asking someone to prove their love for another. You see evidence of it but you can’t put it on the table like a cup of water.
Other prayers took 4 years or longer to answer but I assure you God answers my prayers often and with wisdom. I trust him when it takes time for an answer now that I have understanding of his ways and know he is good. I am growing in my faith not losing it praise God. To say God doesn’t answer prayer often or compare my God to some other religions god is folly.
Proof of God is everywhere you look in everything you see. Even the proof of the devil is found in the world thru the evil you see with your own two eyes. Your folly is the fact that you have failed to know God as anything more than words of a book and a wheel. Some of your experiences thru bad teaching have left you frustrated with people and bad doctrine. Your use of bad tools has left you believing a wheel is more right that a book that has been around and stood the test of time. Maybe you have been wounded because you wrestle with what you can’t understand. Your paradigm is flawed because you are a flawed person like everyone else. Frankly your pride has left you unable to humble yourself. Have you not heard that God resist the proud but gives grace to the humble? Every argument you have is easily refuted and crumbles under the witness of truth as did mine when the truth came to set me free.
The truth is narrow and offensive by nature so you have rejected it as so many do, but some continue on till they see the fullness of grace in God and inherit the promise of life everlasting. Who called us his children thru Jesus blood.
In truth and compassion
Cindy.
Richard, I hope you realize that this what you are exposing yourself to:
1Ti 1:20 Among these are Hymeneus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan so that they may learn not to blaspheme.
I pray that God have mercy on you, that your name is not counted in along with Alexander and Hymeneus.
Hey Conrad,
You really need to learn the basics of communication. It is meaningless for you to merely quote a verse like that. You have not shown how it has anything to do with me. You have not responded to anything I have written. Your comments therefore have no meaning. If you would like to remedy this situation, please comment on something I have actually said.
Thanks!
Oh yes indeed, let’s talk! Let’s talk about your inexcusable ignorance and how it is matched only by your pompous arrogance (which is so typical of “Messianic Jews” who seem to think they have some special insight into the Bible). You begin by rudely telling me to “throw away” my “little bible wheel” because it has something to do Hebrew gematria? You presumptuous ignorant moron! You know nothing of which you speak. The Bible Wheel has nothing to do with gematria. I wrote a 412 page book on the Bible Wheel that explained it all from Aleph to Tav and I did not once mention gematria. And then you think to school me about Jewish traditions that are common knowledge? Again, you display your contemptuous conceit. You are the antithesis of a spiritual person.
What a joke! So you don’t judge the Bible? Which Bible do you use? The Catholic Bible with 73 books? The Greek Orthodox with 78? The Protestant with 66? If you didn’t “judge” the Bible, then you wouldn’t be able to “judge” which Bible is correct, and you wouldn’t have any “Word of God” at all. I get the impression that you don’t have any idea what words mean. And yet you set yourself up as a teacher and judge over me? What ignorance! What arrogance! What a perfect example of how religion corrupts the mind!
Actually, there are many reasons two people can read the Bible and come away with different opinions. First, the Bible is woefully incomplete. It refers to many things that are not defined within its pages, such as the meaning of “Tartarus” (2 Peter 2:4) which is known to us only through pagan mythology. And there are many textual variations so we don’t even know what the original text said. And there are many contradictions, and obvious errors. And then there are the crazy doctrines that folks impose on the text. And on and on it goes. The fact that no one agrees about the Bible proves that the problem is with the Bible, not the people. You don’t see such confusion in other books like my textbooks on Quantum Physics, Abstract Algebra, Biology or any serious study based on logic and facts.
Bottom line: The Bible is confusing because it is confused.
Your argument is absurd. God’s ways are supposed to be higher than ours, not lower. You cannot justify God’s command to kill everyone. It is a moral abomination. If God wanted them dead, then he should have killed them himself rather than turning his people into soul-dead brutalized baby-killers. The whole history of the conquest of Canaan reads like an invasion by a brutal tribe of mass murderers led by a war god. There is no way around this. If you want to deny the truth, that’s your choice, I can’t open your eyes for you.
You say I have no understanding of the horrible effects of sin and “how it corrupts everything if allowed to survive” – Ha! God did not eliminate any sin by ordering his people to murder everyone. He increased it a thousand fold. You are the one who has failed to understand the most basic elements of true morality because your religion has corrupted your mind and your soul. You have no comprehension of what the doctrine of hell really entails. ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT suffered by a human being – someone’s son, daughter, mother, father. No human heart could accept such a doctrine. It is simply impossible to conceive of a God who would inflict eternal torment on a soul because love is logically incoherent with that doctrine.
Again, your argument is absurd. There is no connection between “who those people are” and the fact that God allows them to be killed. The good and the wicked meet the same fate according to Ecclesiastes, and on this point the Bible is correct. Why do you think the Bible is filled with questions about why the “righteous” suffer? Have you not read Job or the Psalms? God is nothing like a “good father.” He is an absent father. Why do you think so many Jews quit the faith after the Holocaust? I’m sure that was quite a “blessing” for the Gentiles who had “joined themselves to the Jewish people.” Your arguments are totally disconnected from reality.
Well, that’s enough for now.
You don’t need to communicate, you need to start begging God for mercy, as soon as possible.
May God bless you and keep you. May God make His face shine upon you, and give you peace that surpasses all understanding
In the Almighty name of JESUS, our Lord and Savior
Amen and Amen.
Thank You Lord for
Job 22:30 He delivers even the one who is not innocent, who will be delivered through the cleanness of your hands.”
You are correct Conrad, I don’t “need” to communicate but I do enjoy it, and I think it does some good in this world. And it seems important to you since you continue posting messages. So why don’t you quit with the meaningless canned “Christian” statements and deal with reality for a change? You say that I need to “start begging God for mercy” but you didn’t say why. Are you telling me that God hates the truth? If not, then you must be implying that I have said something that was not the truth. But you haven’t said what that might be, so your comments are empty and meaningless. But you don’t realize that, so if you want to communicate, may I think you should probably go take a class at a community college or read a book that explains how.
I am not wrong that is how you used your wheel bub even if you don’t realize it…It’s a form of it I just didn’t go into details. Some of those who follow you seem to feel that way lol. That is how I found you in the first place. Truth can come across rude sure but it is by nature most times offencive. Lets face it I know I insulted what you think. Not a surprise you think me to be rude because you assume my tone in writing yet you can’t judge what you don’t HEAR. I never said I was a teacher. I just shared my understanding which is foolishness to you. Ohh and I’m not talking about making practical judgments I’m talking about how the truth comes to man. It’s not because you made the judgment it was true….it’s because it was revealed to you to be true and you accepted it. Ohh and who is sitting as a judge over God? Who is saying they know better than God about how to deal with sin? Not me because I happen to agree with it lol. You’re the one with the problem his ways not me. By the way I didn’t come to that view point lightly. I’m still growing anyway. I am not corrupt but you can feel whatever you like I’m not too worried about it. My point still stands you can’t rightly divide the word apart from the spirit of God revealing it to you. That is why all you can come away with is the bible has problems…You seem like an angry foolish man and paint me as a moron because I didn’t give you a nice soft landing like some of the others here. When I see a wolf I knock its head off I don’t pet it (referring to bad doctrine). I expected you would response as you did but that’s okay. I’m not here to win your friendship or favor I’m here for the sake of truth and that is a kindness to you that you can say no thanks to. I would hope even if you don’t like what I had to say you could see that I took time to write you because I feel I was being helpful to you not rude. No malice was meant to you nor was I lording over you some arrogance.
In truth and compassion,
Cindy
You are entirely and absolutely wrong. You have been proven wrong. As I said, I wrote a 412 page book on the Bible Wheel and did not once mention gematria. You simply don’t know what you are talking about and are apparently too arrogant to admit it. How pathetic, especially for someone claiming to be a Christian.
The fact that I have studied both the Bible Wheel and gematria does not mean that one is dependent on the other in any way at all. Your assertions are grossly ignorant.
But even if it were a “form of gematria” that would not support your assertions because you have not shown any kind of error in anything having to do with either gematria or the Bible Wheel. Your assertions are void of any content.
Sure, truth can come across as rude, such as the truth that you an arrogant and ignorant internet troll who doesn’t give a shit about God or truth.
Again, you don’t know what you are talking about. I have not judged God in any way at all. I have only judged what the Bible says about God.
And no, you do not “agree with” the Bible, you “agree with” your own interpretation of the Bible which I know differs from the interpretations of other Christians since Christians are totally divided over what it says, let alone what it means.
I didn’t paint you as a moron – you did that yourself with your own words, and you continue doing it now. You think of yourself as some mighty opponent of “bad doctrine” that goes about knocking the heads off of wolves? What kind of mindless arrogance is that? You have not stated a single error about anything I have written concerning the Bible Wheel or gematria! You have not touched me, let alone “knocked off my head.” You arrogant freaks really blow my mind! How is it that you can live in a world so far removed from reality?
Ha! There you go again – thinking you are some warrior for “truth” when in fact you are utterly ignorant of what you speak and you don’t give a damn. You piss on truth with your every post. You have not presented any facts relating to anything I have written, and you don’t even realize it! You are the poster child of ego-maniacal religious delusion. You are completely disconnected from reality. You have not spoken a single word of “truth” to me. You don’t even know what you are talking about. How utterly pathetic. But I’m glad you have posted, because the world can always use another bad example to help protect the children by showing what happens when a person chooses to believe their own ideas are the very “Word of God.”
Ha! You’ve got as much “compassion” as you do “truth.”
Wow that just gave me a big fat belly laugh!!! Being wrong and all that other stuff you accuse me of are two different things. I have pointed out error but you don’t see it as such so you call me names…..( I know you are but what am I?) just couldn’t refuse the invite I guess. Well I think I’ll go drink a cup of coffee now. Mean time you enjoy your Godless tail chasing adventure. In the end it really doesn’t matter if I’m wrong does it? Because according to you I ant going to hell for my evil ways and lack of truth. I can do whatever I please. God is too good for justice. Hope you never want it yourself. I know better than you think I do about what you’re doing with the wheel…Besides I wasn’t talking about your book. The second someone says the Bible is wrong and the wheel has more creditability that it, I know they are misusing it and gematria. I was talking about your application of that wheel. I’ve seen your type before. Both the bible and His ways will outlast you anyway. If you want to be who you are fine but true arrogance is proclaiming you know God and his ways yet you condemn his word as false and never mind that your book is “one of a kind accurate” PLEASE. How long has your book been around? Not very long and I bet it will be collection dust while the bible continues to be printed. You ever have a sit down with the big man? Nope and I’m sure unless you are GOD you have no way to be sure of anything you say…unless humm what if God had a way to communicate to people? What if God who is God for a reason could make a book and keep it pure? No that would be too hard for a God….but you on the other hand are flawless in your assessment of me and the bible and your book. ROTFL! I wonder who the flaws lay with men or GOD? Man that is a hard one to figure out…I know I know God made all this space and people just to be aloof and hard to understand. You have over looked the obvious and have become confused because you have not rightly divide the word. Simple truth confounds you because you have taken to the facts. God’s word was built on revelation and faith. You say Jews left their faith over the holocaust yet Israel stands today as the only nation to be scattered for 2,000 years and keep its identity intact. 20+ nations have risen against her and none of them remain today! And heck us Jews did it with only the evil Old Covenant to trust in. You are grossly mistaken about the Jews, the bible, and me.
In compassion and truth
Cindy
Ha! You are nothing but an inflated windbag of empty opinions. Have you stated one flaw in anything I have written about the Bible Wheel? Nope. Have you quoted one thing I’ve written about it? Nope. You just spew mindless opinions as if they were self-evidently true. You know nothing about how to communicate your ideas or form logical arguments. I couldn’t believe you if I wanted to because you have not actually stated any errors in anything I have written! What is wrong with your brain? Don’t you know anything? You have to provide evidence to support your accusations.
Again, you fail to understand the most basic facts. I did not merely “accuse” you, I gave evidence that demonstrated the truth of my words and you have written nothing that refutes that evidence. On the contrary, your every word confirms what I wrote. You give no indication that you care about truth – you continue to insist that you are “right” about your ignorant judgment about the Bible Wheel when in fact you have not written a single word of substance in regards to it.
Ha! Talk about ROTFL! First you accuse me of “calling names” and then you call me “Godless.” Go read Romans 2:1 you ignorant buffoon.
And again, you have no content in your post. You merely assert that I am involved in some “tail chasing adventure” but you don’t say what that means. I couldn’t believe you if I wanted to because you have not actually stated any errors in anything I have written! You are the perfect storm of Ignorance, Arrogance, and Nastiness all wrapped up with a “Jesus Bow” on top. How lovely! What a perfect witness for the truth – the truth, that is, of how Christianity corrupts the minds and morals of small-minded “believers” who think that their own personal opinions are “revelations from God.”
You think that morality only matters if there’s a place of eternal torment in the afterlife? Once again, this shows how the Christian doctrines corrupts good morals. Morality has to do with how we are supposed to treat people in this life, not because we fear punishment, but because of the value of the other person. But you don’t know this because your religious dogmas have perverted your sense of truth and justice. You think that eternal conscious torment in hell is a form of JUSTICE??? Are you insane??? There is no justice in creating people with an intrinsic inclination to sin and then eternally punishing them for it! You doctrine is monstrously insane and perverse.
You know better than I think about what I’ve done with the Wheel? Bullshit! You have not quoted a single word I’ve written about it! Your accusations are utterly empty of any content. I explained this in the last post and you still don’t get it. You have to provide EVIDENCE to support your claims! You have not done that. I couldn’t believe you if I wanted to because you have not actually stated any errors in anything I have written!
It looks like you are freaking out because I am a former Christian who knows about the errors in the Bible and I freely state the truth and you are utterly incapable of refuting anything I say with logic and facts. So you write line after line of mindless bullshit and make endless empty assertions without any evidence.
I wrote the Bible Wheel book as a devout believer. I praised God and the Bible with great enthusiasm from beginning to end. Read the post above which you are supposedly “responding” to and you will see for yourself. Your ravings reveal nothing but the pathetic condition of your sick, ignorant, and twisted soul.
That makes sense – you snapped your mind shut the “second” that false conclusion popped into your head. I never said that Bible Wheel “has more “credibility” than the Bible. That’s not the way I talk because it’s not the way I think. You opinion is based on a manifest falsehood! But you don’t care about little things like truth and accuracy.
You think you have “seen my type before” – ha! You don’t know me from Adam, and you say things about me that are manifestly false. But now I understand you better. Once again you have confused your prejudiced and ignorant opinion for the “truth.” No surprise here. But I can honestly say that I’ve seen “your type” many times before – people like you fill the pews of churches and mosques throughout the world. Mindless robots who think their own bigoted opinions are the very “revelation of God.”
Wow – you are a textbook example of faulty reasoning. The Koran will be around as long as the Bible – does that prove anything about it’s veracity? Strike 1. And you misquoted me again. I have never said that my book was “one of a kind accurate.” Strike 2. You say that I claim to “know God and his ways” but I never made any such claim. On the contrary, I have repeatedly stated that I don’t understand the god of the Bible and that’s why I can’t “believe” in him. Strike 3. You are out. You’re “arguments” have been utterly shredded. But you can’t even see that because your mind is fundamentally dysfunctional.
Oh, and one other thing. Your comment demonstrates yet again that you don’t have a clue about the Bible Wheel. It will “exist” as long as the Bible because it is nothing but a 2D representation of the Bible. So as long as there’s a Bible, there will be a Bible Wheel implicit in it, whether my book is gathering dust or not.
First, your “argument” is self-defeating. If I have “no way to be sure of anything” because I am not GOD, then neither do you! You claim that you have knowledge by “revelation.” Well, if that’s good enough for you it must also be good enough for others so no one needs to refute anything anyone says. Everything is from “revelation” – there is no need for bothersome little things like “facts” or “evidence” or “logic.” It’s all just “revelation.”
Second, your argument is absurd because the book you claim God has “preserved” is just one of many books you could have chosen. I asked which Bible you use in my first post but you didn’t respond, and apparently you didn’t understand. Here is what wrote in response to your claim that I shouldn’t “judge the Bible.” I said: What a joke! So you don’t judge the Bible? Which Bible do you use? The Catholic Bible with 73 books? The Greek Orthodox with 78? The Protestant with 66? If you didn’t “judge” the Bible, then you wouldn’t be able to “judge” which Bible is correct, and you wouldn’t have any “Word of God” at all. I get the impression that you don’t have any idea what words mean. Unfortunately, I doubt you will ever understand no matter how many times this elementary truth is explained to you.
So tell me WHICH BIBLE DO YOU BELIEVE IS THE “PURE” BIBLE PRESERVED BY GOD? And why? Did you get this knowledge by “revelation” or do you have some evidence to back it up?
And no, it would not be “too hard” for God. It’s just that he didn’t do it the way you think he did. That’s the real issue here. I have not said that the Bible is not from God. I have said that if it is from God, then we must conclude that God intended it to look like it is filled with errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to Him. But it still could be “God’s Book” – it’s just not possible that it could be the “inerrant and infallible Word of God” as you suggest. Unfortunately, this is probably over your head.
Obviously men. That’s a no-brainer. The Bible is obviously written by men and it is saturated with male bias against women which is not a quality that I am willing to attribute to God any more than the command to kill everyone except the 32,000 virgins who would be kept for sex-slaves (Numbers 31:17-18). Ah! The perfect morality taught in the perfect Word of God by the source of ABSOLUTE MORALITY Himself! Gotta love it!
There you go again! More empty statements. I couldn’t believe you if I wanted to because you have not stated what “obvious” things I have “overlooked” or how I have failed to “rightly divide the word.” You just don’t get it. You are an empty windbag! Your comments have no content.
And again, you assert that “God’s word was built on revelation and faith.” What does that mean? How does it help solve any of the disputes about the meaning of the Bible?
I did not merely “say” that many Jews left the faith because of the holocaust. It is a fact, and if you don’t know that then you know nothing of modern Judaism.
And speaking of modern Judaism – you Jews “did it” with a lot more than just the “Old Testament” to trust in. You have invented ten thousand doctrines that have no foundation in the Bible whatsoever. For example, the entire “kosher” rules of meat and milk. Think of all the absurd waste of time and energy over the centuries as Jews had to maintain two sets of kitchen utensils. And for what? There is not a word in the Bible that prohibits eating of milk with meat. On the contrary, Abraham himself, the father of the faith, served them together to the angels of the Lord in Genesis 18:
Genesis 18:8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
It was not for no reason that Jesus castigated the Jewish leaders for making up their own religion:
Mark 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?” 6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ 8 “For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men — the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.” 9 ¶ He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.
There was good reason that Jesus rebuked them. People make up crap and then it becomes tradition and the religion becomes corrupted and there’s no way to clean it up. If you want to see how gross the corruption can become, take a look at this article from the New York Times. It’s about a baby who died after getting herpes from a rabbi who practiced the good old “tradition” of sucking the babies penis with his mouth to draw blood from the wound of circumcision.
Gotta love that old time religion!
Have a nice day.
In the Last Days: Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold – Matthew 24:12
First, the “last days” happened in the first century. For example:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son,
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour [written in the first century]; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
1 Peter 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times, for you
Peter, John, and the author of Hebrews all agree, and there are many other examples that prove the “end times” happened in the first century.
Second, Christ opened the prophecy of Matthew 24 – known as the Olivet Discourse – with the prediction that the Temple would be destroyed, and said that his prophecy would be fulfilled during the lifetime of the generation that heard him speaking. It was fulfilled in 70 AD. And this confirms that the “end times” happened in the first century. (Every word is confirmed by many witnesses.) Therefore, the verse you quoted is taken entirely out of context. It is a gross error for you to post that as if it applied to me or anything going on in the 21st century.
Third, neither my love nor the love of humanity in general has been “growing cold.” On the contrary, humanity is moving forward to ever greater love and care for our fellow human beings. Think about it! When this country was supposedly “Christian” we had slaves that we abused and murdered. We killed millions of native Americans. Women couldn’t vote or have rights or freedom. There were no civil rights laws protecting minorities. All these advances show how we are moving towards greater love, not less. And think about the thousands of people that commit their lives to serving others in hospitals and in foreign aide programs feeding the poor. This is infinitely greater than the world of any time in the past like the first century when barabarism was the rule, or the middle ages when the Roman Catholic Church ruled. Modern Christians can’t see any of this because they have been brainwashed by the religious rulers to believe that things are always getting worse and worse because we are heading for the “end times.” They do this to fleece money from their flock and keep them trapped in their cult. It’s a total scam!
Okay here it is simple for you….You are the error it’s self. You are the error period. You wrongly divide God’s word that is the issue. IM NOT TALKING ABOUT YOUR BOOK I’M TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT YOU HAVE SAID HERE in this forum. You disagree with me and that is the end of it. I’m not any of what you say I am just because I believe different. I don’t have to site anything in your book to point out errors in your personal paradigm. I’m sure your book reflects it anyway. Being morally sound in this life just because it is good is short sighted. In the long run of existence according to you it really doesn’t matter because ULTAMATLY there is no accountability. Saying someone is ungodly is hardly name calling. You confuse a perfect God with imperfect people. Name one group of people who doesn’t have some ugly history somewhere? That sir makes your issue with people not God’s word anyway.
You hypocrite, how about how God dealt with his own people? How about what was done to God’s people by others? Again the error is you alone. You use your own set of rules or what feels right to you to judge God. I am not God yes, but how I know him is by his word which I trust and you don’t…I know this thru revelation which I believe by faith. This is foolishness to you but this is how I can justify you would have to be God to be sure of what you think where as I do not have to be him to be sure because he has revealed himself to me in his word. By the way his word is the original text. Translations have errors so yeah I did address your question on what bible I use. You can use just about any bible version but to get to the understanding it requires effort as I have already said…oh and revelation. Thus God said let a man study to show himself approved by God.
You say, “And again, you assert that “God’s word was built on revelation and faith.” What does that mean? How does it help solve any of the disputes about the meaning of the Bible?”
Simple, you cannot understand the bible “it meaning” apart from revelation and faith that comes from God alone. Salvation is dependent on God not man. This is exactly how you fell in to error in your conclusions of the bible. Besides you cancel out anyone who claims to know God…that again is you being the error. What you don’t get is yes God can come done and prove himself to who he chooses. My walk is evidence of God in my life. Truth bears witness of its self and needs nothing more than that. The evidence you seek is right in front of your face yet you can’t understand it. Why? Because you want to use your natural mind which is contrary to God.
You say “It looks like you are freaking out because I am a former Christian who knows about the errors in the Bible”
Assumption and your opinion nothing more.
You say “Wow – you are a textbook example of faulty reasoning. The Koran will be around as long as the Bible – does that prove anything about it’s veracity? Strike 1. And you misquoted me again. I have never said that my book was “one of a kind accurate.” Strike 2. You say that I claim to “know God and his ways” but I never made any such claim. On the contrary, I have repeatedly stated that I don’t understand the god of the Bible and that’s why I can’t “believe” in him. Strike 3. You are out. You’re “arguments” have been utterly shredded. But you can’t even see that because your mind is fundamentally dysfunctional. “
Number one, The Koran has not been around as long as the bible and I was referring to your book not the Koran. And yes the longevity of a book speaks to its versatility. Number two, you imply your book as of right now to be in better standing than a book that has been around and stood the test of time. This is how you can say the bible is full of flaws yet want me to provide evidence of why your book is in error. Which I did and continue to do simply because I can see the errors of your book are built on one major error….YOU. I would have to agree you don’t understand the God of the bible and because of such you have no right to tell me I don’t. The simple truth is I do know him and am showing you a different way to know God. Makes sense to me that if you conclude you don’t understand him then you should be open to people who claim they do. Instead of sighting the very things that make you not believe in or understand the God of the bible you should throw down your defenses and be open. Is it so impossible that the very hang up you have is your approach of the Bible? That is simple enough right? Look I don’t know everything neither do you as we both can admit but I see that the true issue is not our knowledge base it is that I am okay with God and you are not. This is why you are torn between your wheel and what you perceive as flaws in the bible. I’m not dumb I know at a first glance the bible can look flawed but that is translation difficulties and only last until you become enlightened. Apart from God’s bible I also see creation bears witness to his character and nature found in the bible alone.
You say, “You think that eternal conscious torment in hell is a form of JUSTICE??? Are you insane??? There is no justice in creating people with an intrinsic inclination to sin and then eternally punishing them for it! You doctrine is monstrously insane and perverse.”
God did not create people with an intrinsic inclination to sin. We began perfect. We messed it up yet God gave us a way out. BECAUSE HE DID NOT WISH US TO GO TO HELL! People choose it….and just as you cannot fathom God’s goodness you cannot condemn him for people’s choice to go to hell. I never said I was a good girl because I was afraid of hell…no, I fear God and his word. I love him for his love and mercy which compels me to do well by allowing him to change me.
You say,“You know better than I think about what I’ve done with the Wheel? Bullshit! You have not quoted a single word I’ve written about it! Your accusations are utterly empty of any content. I explained this in the last post and you still don’t get it. You have to provide EVIDENCE to support your claims! You have not done that. I couldn’t believe you if I wanted to because you have not actually stated any errors in anything I have written! “
Here is some evidence since you’re so hung up.
You say, “I had the overwhelming witness of the Bible Wheel which seemed to confirm everything about the Bible as the very Word of God. “
You say, “The evidence for the Bible Wheel remains despite the obvious flaws in the Bible. So what does it mean? I don’t know yet, and before trying to come to a conclusion, I feel a need to critique my own book with the same honesty I have critiqued the Bible upon which it is based.”
There you go, you are the error period. You see this bible wheel as proof of the bible and not the spirit of God who reveals himself to men. You never mention the spirit of truth! Jesus never said the bible wheel is the way to the father did he? God said I will give you wisdom if you ask. Only God has real wisdom and no measure of men’s attempts to understand a spiritual book by any other means can work. You stumbled because the tool you used, even though you say it confirms the bible yet at the same time the bible is full of flaws, is exactly why you need to throw your wheel out as I already said. The glasses you’re looking thru are the wrong ones. Did you even hear what you said…your wheel proves the bible yet the bible is flawed so God must have made it that way? ROTFL! This is truly a mystery to you then…What would the purpose be in God making himself hard to understand? If God wanted to confuse us why would he say he is not the author of confusion? This is one of those things that you find a flaw in isn’t it? Again you are the error not Gods word. In your logic if something is confusing then it must be wrong but you cannot use logic (FACTS) in application to the bible because it is SPIRITUAL…. Carnal man cannot understand God. This is why we know him by revelation and believe by faith. Then when God’s spirit is in us we can begin to undo the effects of sin and see clearly. Then practical application can be applied because we have the spirit of truth in us.
In truth and compassion
Cindy.
Cindy said:
Well alrighty then! You have convinced me of my error. I’ll quit using logic and facts to help you understand reality.
You have exposed the rank insanity of religious fundamentalism with perfect eloquence. Thank you.
Have a nice day.
I was trying to learn more about Shakespeare (movie “Anonymous” coming out this Oct.). My search terms led me to your site. Glad. Very interesting.
I’m a “Christian in Exile,” as J. S. Spong has coined some… those of us who have moved beyond religions and have adopted new sets of Christian views. I still pray. I still embrace the Christ concept/works. But, I have shed ‘religion.’ Whether that be from not wanting to be controlled, learning more beyond the walls of ‘church,’ or because my spirit so moved me… I don’t know. It leaves me somewhat confused, anxious, and with a touch of fear. Regardless, I am looking forward to reading more on your site.
Hi Mona,
I read Spong’s book Why Christianity Must Change or Die when I was still a very fundamentalist Christian. Needless to say, I was quite outraged by his position. I think it will be very interesting to read it again from my new perspective. Thanks for reminding me of it.
All the best,
Richard
Yeah, it is first spiritual then practical. In no other way can you make the bible be proven infallible as you have pointed out to its many flaws using logic first before revelation of the intent of the author. Otherwise you’re stuck with opinions and speculations. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. What does that mean to you? To me, it means that faith being the substance of things NOT SEEN the evidence of things hoped for is found in a linking of the authors intention of the scripture to the person, this mercy aluminates the mind of the reader. In turn the reader believes thru this revelation of understanding it. Christians are saved thru grace by faith, grace being God enabling a person to perceive God revealing himself. The whole process is not tangible its super natural. A Jewish man asked Jesus once, how then can a man be saved? Jesus said with men it is impossible but with God all things are possible. Unless you become as a little child you cannot enter the kingdom of God. The things of God seem foolish to man and that you have without a doubt become an example of such. Anyway your zealot of insanity rests her case with you. Have a nice day and good life. I did enjoy talking with you regardless of our differences.
In compassion and truth.
Cindy
Richard,
I haven’t read everything you have posted or responded to. I apologize if the question has been asked.
Let me share a few experiences that have occurred in my home. I would be interested to know what you think of them.
To sum them up, my wife was healed a few times.
My wife experienced a some very real physical symptoms. Once she thought she was having a heart attack, which we attribute to an allergic reaction to almonds. She went to sleep after I had been praying intensely for her. I continued to pray as she slept. After a bit she awoke, raised up in bed, and asked me if I had been praying for her. Her symptoms were completely removed within an instant.
On another occasion she had a horrendous migraine that hurt so intensely she nearly passed out. It scared us to death! I laid my hand on her head and prayed. Both of us felt a touch on our bodies, and at that moment her headache vanished.
I believe intently in the power of prayer and God’s love for us. I have felt it deep within my spirit and I am able to read about it in His word. How would you explain healings, which many I know have personally witnessed? How do you explain near-death-experiences (which are vast)? How can there be so much Truth? …if there is no God?
It seems as though as it is more the case that you are rejecting Him, rather than not believing in Him (from what I have read). Maybe I’m wrong. Is it possible that you have placed your logic higher than the vastness that is God? Thanks, and good luck.
Hi Eric,
Those are good questions. First, let me say that I have my own small set of very meaningful “answered prayers” that I collected after years of walking as a believing Christian who often prayed. I don’t have “explanations” for all of them, but neither are they very “convincing” to me because of their random nature. I never had any reasonable expectation that God would answer any particular prayer no matter how much I believed in and trusted God – especially if it involved anything more “objectively real” than a personal discomfort like a headache. I would, like all Christians, have to accept the fact that God would usually act as if he did not exist and I would be forced to make up excuses for his apparent absence or lose my faith.
Now concerning the specific “answered prayers” that you brought up. The first thing to understand is that people of every religion have experiences like yours, and they all attribute the “answers” to their God or perhaps the “spiritual power” of some healer or maybe just the “Universe” (as is popular with modern pop spirituality). So the real question is not “how do I explain your experiences” but rather, “how do I explain this general phenomenon found in all cultures and religions?”. First, I would say that probably 95% of all such reported “miracles” are easily explained as psychosomatic, coincidental, or due to suggestibility (as in a Benny Hinn Salvation and Healing Carnival). Hank Hanegraaff (the Bible Answer Man) asked Hinn for his three best confirmed miracles – out of thousand and thousands that have supposedly happened during his show – and none panned out. Now think about this. Benny Hinn has been in this business selling “Healing through Prayer and Power of God” for decades. His stadium is consistently filled to overflowing. Countless Christians give their testimony that God heals. But there is not one confirmed supernatural healing! So obviously, Occam’s Razor demands the simpler solution – the so-called “healings” were not supernatual, they have natural explanations.
But what about the remaining 5%? Well, this category is quickly whittled down to maybe 1% when we recall how easily folks deceive themselves and see only what they want to see and disregard the rest. Folks have a very selective memory. And we must remember the role of mere coincidence. Devout Christians are told to pray “continuously” and that creates a very large set of possible “answers” that are really just coincidences. How many things have you prayed for that didn’t happen? If you are a real Christian who prays continuously, then the number of unanswered prayers is astronomical, and so the ratio of “answered” to “unanswered” prayers becomes something like 1 in a thousand and most of those are just coincidence or “luck.” You mentioned two dramatic “healings” of your wife. How many ailments have you prayed for that weren’t healed? And I can’t help but notice that the healings were anything but “objective” – one involved a headache and one involved something like a food allergy or perhaps a panic attack. Those are not impressive to me at all. If God’s ability to answer prayers is no greater than an aspirin, we’ve got some serious reasons to doubt the Biblical promises. Unfortunately, the “miracles” you list are the kind that convince the vast majority of Christians that God is real. They say “God healed my headache!” forgetting that the same God let millions of people die of the plague until mere humans invented antibiotics. I’m sorry, but the kinds of “miracles” that you mentions look ridiculous in light of the real suffering that God allows to continue day after day, year after year, regardless of how many “prayers” are said.
Here’s the bottom line: Take 1000 devout Christians with the plague and let them pray, and take 1000 atheists with the plague and given them antibiotics. Who lives? Who dies? Case closed.
Yes, you are wrong, completely wrong. I don’t see any basis for your comment. What have I ever written that made you think I was rejecting a God whom I thought really existed? That’s not what’s going on at all. I am rejecting belief in the traditional God of Christian theism because I have no reason to believe he exists, and I have good reason to believe he does not exist.
I can see that there is one thing you have missed in my writings. I have not said there is “no God.” I have said that the God of traditional Christian theism does not exist. There’s a big difference. I am completely open to the existence of a real God who is “vast” indeed. I’ve written about this frequently in my recent posts and responses to comments.
Thank you very much for your comments. I hope you will continue the conversation.
All the best,
Richard
After writing something similar, a friend sent your article to me. There is No Hell: http://urbanhaas.blogspot.com/2011/09/there-is-no-hell.html
Hey there Urban,
Great article! Thanks for sharing the link. It’s good to meet a like-minded person who has walked a similar path. I’ve bookmarked your blog and will be reading more.
All the best,
Richard
Richard,
After doing a Google search this evening, on another idea, I came across your Bible Wheel site and this post of yours. This is the first I’ve heard of the wheel and I found the concept of it very intriguing. I’ve not been able to read through all of the posts in this discussion but decided to add my thoughts after reading a few of them.
I grew up a Christian but no longer attend a church on any regular basis. Primarily, for me, it is a problem with the politicalization of thought that I seem to find in almost any “Christian” church, especially in the USA. And the current focus on “obedience”, which any autocrat also strives for. I am now one of those people that the Roman Catholic church seems to despise, one who has created their own “spirituality” to live by. Even though I have adopted some Roman Catholic traditions in my own spirituality.
Atheism is not my creed but I am trained in computer science, web site design, database development and similar skills. I say this in order to explain my response to a personal query that you made, paraphrasing – along the lines of “why is the pattern of the Bible Wheel there, is it divine?”
For me the Bible was written by human beings, organized by human beings, with the implied belief that it was divinely inspired. As such the “writers” would make every attempt to codify or collect or organize those words in patterns that they were taught to be, thought to be, divine. The most obvious one being the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet. In patterns that fit the nature of the material. The writers of the books of the Bible would have used what they believed to be appropriate ways of organizing Divine material. I say this as one who organizes information and ideas on a regular basis using computers.
Who’s to say that the books were not indeed organized in this way in the 3rd century, or some other time, with the idea that only those who organized the work would understand it and in so doing there was no need to bring attention to the method of organization? Until, perhaps, you finally stumbled upon the pattern. Perhaps I have only a superficial understanding of your Bible Wheel from only a cursory look at it and you see much more to the pattern. But such linguistic patterns seem quite natural and obvious to me in my line of work.
Nowadays we use charts, patterns, mind maps, memory peg systems, and many other ways of organizing, memorizing, communicating ideas. If nothing else your Bible Wheel has given me a simple way to visualize the Bible in a way I’ve never had. As to the content of that book, as we see here, the debate will go on for quite some time…
Thanks for a beautiful, informative, and well designed web site that sparks so much thought and discussion.
All the Best,
Bob.
Hey there Bob,
It is very good to meet you. I too had a big problem with the “politicization” of Christianity. I never “fit in” with that part of the program. And as I tried to solve that and other problems such as the doctrine of hell, I found myself further and further away from “traditional Christianity” until finally I realized i was no longer a “Christian” according to any of the many varieties out there. I’m glad I was able to free myself from the mental bondage that comes with religion. Thinking freely feels like breathing freely. And having my freedom of thought bound is like suffocation.
Now as for the Bible Wheel – I can see where you are coming from. The idea that the it was deliberately designed by the folks who put together the Bible would be, of course, the “default explanation” of any authentic patterns found in it. But there are a number of facts that make that explanation seem impossible. There is a lot of material to cover, so I’ll be answering you in a new post later today (rather than here in the comment section).
All the best,
Richard
Hey there Bob,
I answered your questions in my new post called Did early Christians knowingly design the Bible Whee?. I would be very interested to know what you think of the answers I gave.
All the best,
Richard
Dear Mr. Mc Gough,
Like Bob I also stumbled upon your article on the bible wheel. After almost 10 years of actively researching the bible (and experiencing its truths and wisdom) I am astounded that you have failed to grasp the simplicity of answers that you seek lie in the contents of the book.
In my personal research and eureka moments I have been humbled by the fact that the bible is not a book that is open to minds of great intellect but rather it ‘opens’ itself to the mind that is earnest and patient enough to read its pages dilligently over and over again with the firm belief that it is God’s Holy Word.
I first want to congratulate you for determining that modern christianity in itself is a stumbling block to the freedom to explore new ideas…I sincerely understand where you are the moment. But I want to caution you on that.
Every navigator knows that to determine where he stands and where he is going he will need an orientation in terms of space. This is the same for any free mind..you need to be oriented where YOU stand.
In this regard, among all the books you have read the bible stands out clearly a having a divine if not perfect authorship. In its contents the divine writer has identified Himself and revealed His plans. You cannot ignore this fact…and therein lies you space orientation.
To answer your questions on why God would have the Israelites slaughter their enemies you need to grasp three concepts; one: the human being like God is triune having a body, soul and spirit; two: the biblical hint of spiritual conception where Adam having ‘breath in his nostrils’ viz a viz ‘spirit’ passes it on in conception to his progeny, i.e. the father passes spiritual life to the children and the mother only nurtures the embryo and plays a part in the formation of its ‘flesh’. This is why the bible says Adam begat.. and David begat..etc. This is why Jesus is said to have come from the father…His spirit was directly from the father bypassing the corruption that overcame Adam’s spirit.
Finally the third concept comes from a deep analysis of Genesis 6 on the account of the ‘watchers’ or the sons of God mating with daughters of men and procuring male children (Mighty men of old)..in this regard think about the offspring of these mighty men and spirit that was passed on. Every male child would pass on this evil spirit to its offspring hence the first flood. Think about it, in every case God speaks what will happen and His call is for faith/belief in His Word and the person who heeds it will be safe!
Now, in spiritual matters a spirit is a an entity that has consciousness but no body. The spirits of angels are eternal…the offspring of angelic beings crossbred with human beings will have mortal bodies but immortal spirits (I know you would ask what about a soul?)…the spirit animates the flesh/body. In this regard disembodied spirits (resulting from the flood) seek to find a body to dwell in and therein lie many of your answers.
The deeds of the enemies of Israel lay in pervasions that gave ‘legal ground’ for the working of wicked spirits in their lives. All wicked spirits move from body to body on the basis of spiritual legal ground such as sex, murder, birth etc and the absence/binding up of ‘the strongman’ alluded to by Yahawshua’s story on how evil spirits operate.
The requirement for the Israelites to ‘utterly destroy’ these people is based on their spiritual condition as a conduit for the continued spiritual wickedness on earth and it is a pattern for the modern believer to understand the true hidden nature of the universe. To be the executer of God’s judgement is not a sin…for if God was to destroy them Himself He would have done it as He did Sodom and Gomorrah. The Israelite story of their conquests and defeats has deep inner meanings that will only become plain with much dilligent study…my challenge to you.
This is a brief sketch to get your explorative juices flowing. Please note that I have not quoted the scripture in detail as I am assuming you are familiar with its text. I am not open to debate but rather to a dialogue that will be mutually benefitting in understanding this outstanding work of art that is the bible.
Finally I also note that you have been drawn to the ‘eastern mystical concepts of universal consciousness’ hence your analogy between the bible wheel and… The bible warns of an antichrist (In place of the Messiah) who will unite the world with such concepts. To this end remember that the word holy means ‘set apart’. Take time to see the confusion that has been thrown at you is not random and start again from the beginning…read the Word!
Keep in touch,
J. Utur
Well, you trivialized these situations that came to my mind on the subject of answered prayers. In my mind and experience, these events were verifiable evidences of something besides me that went on. I don’t pray out loud. I don’t don’t shake rattle and roll when I pray, and I guess you had to be there to realize the seriousness of my wife’s situations. They were not her everyday headache or minor ache or pain.
You’re correct, the allergic reaction is quite similar to what we know as a panic attack or heart attack symptoms. But this is a physiological response that she has to almonds. This particular event was the first noted time that she had ever had a reaction to almonds (I know, seems silly to be making points about almonds in this discussion). On this occasion, she was trying to sleep…kind of half-asleep…trying to get past her symptoms…and I was lying next to her in our bed with my arm around her praying in the dark quiet hours. This is when she rose up without knowing what I was doing (praying). Her symptoms vanished in an absolute instant.
Her headaches in general are quite severe, and they persist. This particular headache for her was one that would have been similar to an aneurysm…very sharp pain that was literally blinding. It scared us to death, and I actually considered calling for help. Again, in a utter instant, gone. Atypical. Her headaches never go away in an instant. And this time, we both felt something touch the backs of our necks at the same time, which was right before the headache was removed.
You mentioned Benny Hinn…whom I have pretty much complete disdain for. Your argument about suggestibility here particularly has no applicability because of the ways in which I was praying for my wife. Again, in the first example she didn’t realize that I was praying for her, and rose up asking me if I was praying for her. With the headache, she was the one that said she felt something touch her neck (it wasn’t me) and her headache went away. You can imagine how wild that was for me, knowing that I had just felt the very same thing.
I don’t know, perhaps I have some sort of metaphysical power. But I can recollect these times easily because they were events that would typically persist and require medication or time, but were removed in an absolute instant, in ways that my wife nor I would have anticipated. But I am arguing about something that is meaningless to you. I have no data, which I am guessing is your lingua franca.
Q: “How many things have you prayed for that didn’t happen?”
To this, plenty. But I am learning.
The Bible, when read in context, provides little to no guarantee that we are granted everything that we wish through prayer. Otherwise, I think we would need to change the name of God to Genie. For me personally, I am somewhere in the middle of a predeterminant view of our life on Earth and a “who knows?”. I think our time is generally set in motion, with major things already set to occur, which we have little to no control over. So why would we pray, right? Maybe we should pray in regards to the patterns in our lives that we would know and accept His will. Maybe we should pray to be in agreement with Him? And hiccups here and there, that probably don’t have any true path-changing effects, can be manipulated through belief and prayer (like, perhaps, headaches).
You stated: “Yes, you are wrong, completely wrong. I don’t see any basis for your comment. What have I ever written that made you think I was rejecting a God whom I thought really existed? That’s not what’s going on at all. I am rejecting belief in the traditional God of Christian theism….”
When I stated that you are rejecting Him, this is precisely to what I am referring. You are rejecting the truth of the Bible (Traditional God of Christian theism”), calling it a lie, and determining your own truth, which is perhaps related to your own frustrations that God didn’t answer your prayers the way you thought that He ought to. You cite three or four primary reasons for rejecting the faith. Below are my responses:
1. Hell
Why wouldn’t God create an eternal place for those that reject Him? Should there be some sort of reward for those who reject Him? Wrapped in God is Truth. And Truth demands an end or a consequence, which is justice.
2. Contradictions, logical absurdities, abominations, etc. that are attributed to God.
I can only deal with specifics. But I have pretty much heard them all. I doubt there is any true originality behind your doubts here, and most if not all can be easily refuted or explained.
3. No Answers to Prayer
This is the primary item I have discussed with you.
4. Corruption, etc in the Church
Who cares? What does this have anything to do with? Man is corrupt. There you go.
The reason I selected the words and the subjects that I did was because they all appear to center around your thoughts and your will. You don’t want people to have to go to hell. You don’t like the idea of women, children and animals being killed in the name of God. And you want your prayers to be answered. The key word seems to be “you”, which goes against Scripture…the same Scripture you supposedly held dear.
Please don’t misunderstand the tone of my response. I welcome these discussions as tests to my faith, and I sincerely appreciate you taking the time for everything posted here. You seem like a very nice person, and I enjoy your posts, even though I disagree. I am also going to buy your book.
Hi Eric,
First, let me say that I have no problem at all with the “tone” of your response. I’m glad you are willing to discuss these things.
Second, I certainly did not mean to “trivialize” your wife’s suffering or the significance of the things that happened when you prayed – I was only trying to bring clarity to the question about whether or not we can or should trust God to answers prayers. And I think the answer is very clear – it is “no.” God cannot be trusted to answer prayers relating to anything in this life. It’s a crap shoot – out of a hundred prayers maybe one or two (of the non-verifiable type) will be “answered.” All serious Christians know this because they have tried the “prayer” thing and soon discovered that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. So they say that they must “trust” God even when – or especially when – God proves not to be trustworthy! This is a great irony to me. The more that God proves that he cannot be trusted for anything in this life, the more folks will say that he should be trusted to answer everything in the next life. It’s really sad when you think about it.
I agree that it would be absurd for God to answer every prayer like a “Genie” – the same thing is true of any natural parent. I don’t expect a human father to give his children whatever they want, but I do expect him to ACTUALLY EXIST and do things like provide food and shelter and basic care. This is what we are talking about here. The God of the Bible is totally absent – missing in action – a deadbeat dad. And this directly contradicts everything the Bible and Christianity teach about God. The Bible emphatically states that we should rely on God for everything. That we should pray expecting to receive for the man who doubts should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. God is supposed to REALLY EXIST and care about what happens in our lives. He is portrayed in the Bible as intervening in the lives of his people and actually doing things in the world. All Christians teach that God is real and that he answers prayers. And that is the problem. It simply is not true.
The real question to me is – “Why believe in that kind of God at all?” If God cannot be trusted to actually “be there” (let alone “do anything”) then why do Christians constantly talk about how “trustworthy” he is? Why can’t Christians see the outrageous contradiction between their words and reality? From morning to night they praise God for his “trustworthiness” when in fact he acts as if he does not even exist.
Are you not “determining your own truth” when you claim the Bible is true? And when your interpretation differs from that of other believers, who determines which is true and which is false? And are you not “determining your own truth” when you deny the obvious errors in the Bible? Forgive me for speaking plainly, but “determining your own truth” is one of the most ridiculous Christian cliches out there. No one has any choice but to “determine their own [understanding of the] truth.”
But no – none of this has anything to do with particular prayers that went unanswered. My problem is with the general claim that there is a God who is like a person in the sky who goes about doing things like any other “agent” playing a role in the world. I just don’t think God is like that at all. If he were, then why is he entirely absent from the real world? He only “exists” in the story book. In the Bible, he is portrayed as constantly interacting with people, doing miracles, raising the dead, causing earthquakes, striking sinners dead in their tracks. But he doesn’t act like that anywhere but in the book! That should be a clue that something fishy is going on here.
Who is “rejecting” God? You are assuming that everyone knows that the God of your religion really exists and is the true God and that they have rejected him. I see no basis for such presuppositions.
But even if it were true, and people “rejected God” why would he keep them in existence? What purpose does that serve? Perverse Christian apologists like Hank Hanegraaff say that in the end there are only two types of people: Those who say to God “Thy will be done” and those to whom God says “Thy will be done” meaning that God is only giving the people in hell “what they want.” That is such incredible bullshit it makes me vomit to think how many sick and twisted Christian teachers have taught it. The Bible teaches that hell is PUNISHMENT … it most certainly is not what anyone would “want.” This is another major reason I quit Christianity – it corrupts the minds of those who try to believe in it.
Say what? You really think that “most if not all” of the problems in the Bible can be “easily refuted or explained?” I’m sorry Eric, but that pretty much indicates you have no idea of what’s really in the Bible. It is riddled with problems from beginning to end so that no intelligent person could possibly assert that it is the “inerrant and infallible Word of God.” Do you believe in the solid dome “firmament” holding up the waters that are above? Do you believe in Adam and Eve? Noah’s ark? Just think about that one for a second. There is no way in the world that all the animals on the planet descended from pairs on the ark. It is an absolute impossibility. And what about the killing of all the men, women, and children except the virgins which were kept as sex slaves in Numbers 31? You got an “easy answer” fro that one? And on and on it goes … to say that all the problems in the Bible are easily resolved is absurd in the extreme. I’ve been studying the Bible for decades. I know the problems, and I know that Christians have to pervert logic to try to solve them.
Who cares? How about God? I thought he was supposed to be interested and involved with “his people.” I thought Christians were supposed to be “new creatures” not just like the rest of corrupt humanity. I thought God was supposed to be loving and wise – why did he give a Bible that is so confused and confusing that no one understands what it really means so they kill each other over differing interpretations?
That’s another Christian cliche that blows my mind. The “key word” has nothing to do with “me.” It’s not that “I” don’t “like” murdering women and children in the name of God – the problem is that such behavior is a moral abomination. And it is being commanded by God who is supposed to be the source of all morality. And it’s not that “I want” prayers to be answered, it is that the Bible says there is a God who answers prayers, but no such God really exists. And it’s not that I don’t “want” people to go to hell – it is that the doctrine of eternal conscious torment in hell is the purest form of evil I could imagine. If it is true, then God functions as the Devil himself in relation to the people that God cast into hell. The fact that Christians are fine with God being portrayed as wicked as the Devil demonstrates yet again how Christianity corrupts both the minds and the morals of those who profess it.
I very much appreciate your effort to discuss these things with me. And I would ask that you also “don’t misunderstand the tone of my response.” It is good to speak plainly. It helps make things clear.
All the best,
Richard
Richard: Re:But I also know that it has many signs of “divine design” that make it seem like it was “inspired” in many ways. So I am now working to understand what it all means.
Thanks so much for your tremendous work in preparing this Gematria site for many of us who have been LED to study this divine design. I used your site often for my book “Three Religions One Temple Mount” (www.888messiah.com) which contains over 100 Gematria confirmations from the Hebrew prophecies in the OT that link amazingly to the Gematria value for Jesus in Greek (888). ABSOLUTE PROOF that Jesus is the same God…His express image as the NT says (likeness 862 + Jehovah 26 = 888) that gave Moses the Law…and fulfilled ALL of the major prophecies. I aced Probability and Statistics in College and spent many years in IBM…Like you I need both natural and spiritual evidence to form my belief system and worldview. The Word of God has that for people like us. What has been your purpose you ask? Like all of us it, has been to REVEAL JESUS…for to live is Christ….to live is 888. God Bless Your Divine Purpose…from the foundation of the world. All things work together for good…even these blogs, as you are being tested, will challenge many to know what they believe and why. We can get very excited with numeric phenomena…and I did. But the only real purpose in this…or in fact anything in life, is to see and believe Jesus in His Word…to discern His Body and find our place in it…to seek FIRST His kingdom, which is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost…and desire to become like Him, which is His eternal plan…so that we all may become ONE with Him as He is with the Father. We all LOVE you Richard…because the ONE whom you once knew…gave us HIS LOVE, which is unconditional…and eternal. NOTHING else can satisfy. As for the great questions of His Plan, His integrity, Our Purpose, Our Destiny…why Bible Wheel. I know that you already know the answer…because He will never leave us or forsake usm so He is there still in your heart. But sometimes He needs to allow us some temporary pain…or even blindness (as with the Jewish people according to Romans 11) to set our priorities back in order. I took much criticism in fooling with Gematria…until the medical Doctor who read my book…and he has written three of his own. Mine is being read all over the world…and has been presented to the Arab world on 9/11 for 4 hours on live satellite TV. Jews, Muslims and Christians of all stripes have seen how Gematria can be the “third proof” along with the OT and NT synergy to ESTABLISH TRUTH (the Jewish standard of evidence). Oh, Richard…you have no idea how your work and labor of love for the Father has saved lives for Jesus all over the world. You have a great reward from the King…just receive it. God Bless You, Gary L. Cobb 810-923-2229…call me anytime brother.
Hi Gary,
Thanks for your kind words. I very much appreciate your concern, and I understand where you are coming from. I hope that I can help you see where I am coming from too. You say that the identities you have found give “ABSOLUTE PROOF” of Biblical doctrines and that you “aced Probability and Statistics in College.” Unfortunately, I think those two statements contradict each other. I have reviewed your numerical identities, and I must say that I do not see anything that goes beyond what we would expect from the statistics of random chance. In other words, I don’t see any “proof” at all in the style of gematria that you have put forth. As you know, any random association of letters with numbers will produce plenty of interesting “hits” that “confirm” pre-existing ideas. So how then do you discern between random chance and “proof?” As far as I recall from our previous interactions, you have no answer for this question. If you have such an answer, please share it with us.
The problem is that mere lists of words and numbers can never prove anything because any random assignment will result in interesting “hits.” There is no way to “prove” anything. If such lists were all I had, I never would have produced the Gematria Reference on my website. But I had something else – the Biblical Holographs – that give solid evidence that something “beyond chance” is going on in the Bible. This is because they display a reiterative self-similarity over scale based on nested multiples of a single prime number that relates to the central message of the verse. And there are other self-reflective patterns based on numerical geometry that strongly suggest something more than chance is going on.
I’m glad you stopped by. I hope you will try to explain why your identities supply objective “proof” of the Bible doctrines.
All the best,
Richard
I was just wondering, have you ever thought about what if you’re wrong about God? I mean, in thinking of the bigger picture of things and our purpose and salvation, and how we will spend our eternity after we die… there’s obviously an upside to following Christ. But what about the downside if you don’t? Just curious.
I hope that you will find your way and truth will be revealed to you in your searches.
Thanks,
Lacy
Hi Lacy,
Your question really touches a nerve. When I was a troubled teen I often found Chick tracts that preached God would cast me into hell to suffer eternal conscious torment if I did not believe in Jesus. This really disturbed me because as far as I could tell there was no way for me to really know if they were right or wrong until I died. But according to them, it would then be too late! This seemed totally perverse and cruel and unrighteous. Why would God set things up so that I had to believe something I couldn’t prove and that could be proved only when it was too late??? And what about all the claims from other religions that can’t be proved? Nobody had any real proof of any of this stuff! So they just messed with your mind, saying that if you didn’t believe you would go to eternal hell. Is that love? Is that God? Is that true?
Therefore, the real question is not if I am wrong since I am only saying I don’t believe them. The real question is if there is any reason to think their claims about God are real. And as far as I can tell, the answer is a resounding “No.” I say resounding because it fails on so many points. The Bible is not what believers claim it to be, and they are incapable of supporting their claims with any logic or facts. Therefore, I have nothing to fear whatsoever.
Thanks for taking the time to comment, and I hope you will feel free to write with any followups.
All the best,
Richard
In 1995 or there about I landed on the Bible Wheel page and was totally fascinated, intrigued, and determined to really study the details of your what – appeared to be then – your captivating and illustrated study of the above. However my priorities were radically readjusted as I was awakened, by the Holy Spirit, to the Truth&Study of the Hebrew Roots of the followers (apostles& disciples) of the Beloved Savior & Redeemer,Jesus Christ(YAHSHUAH HAMASCHIAH) which clearly ABSORBED almost every moment of my free time.
You see, I believe that what the Bible documents were the spoken words of the Messiah, are TRUTH. In the Gospel of John 16v13 it says the the Ruack Ha Kodesh the Holy Spirit will guide us into ALL truth – like a bull dog with a bone -I totally relied on the HOLY ONE TO LEAD AND GUIDE ME INTO ALL TRUTH. HE ANSWERED MY PRAYER AND HE CERTAINLY HAS brought me to a place of HIS WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING.
But what has all this got to do with your disillusionment and your rejection of the God of the Bible & Christianity. When I was quickened to the SALVATION message & unfailing GRACE of the LIVING AND HOLY ONE -it has been many years ago- the theme of all church teachings was “GOD IS LOVE”. HE certainly is. But I feel that most religionists have created God to be what they are comfortable with. They have made a GOD in their own image. A thorough study of THE EVERPRESENT AND ETERNAL ONE in the Bible tells us that the Eternal One is “EVERYTHING”. HE has to be or HE IS NOT GOD. A few Characteristics that we are told by apostle Paul is that GOD is a “CONSUMING FIRE”, HE IS A GOD OF WRATH/A JEALOUS GOD/A GOD OF RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENTS/ and I know that you are familial with all these statements.
I, in the age when all GOD was,WAS LOVE, I came across the same scriptures that you are wrestling with right now. Could not believe that God would tell the Israelites to kill men, women, children,babies, animals…etc…it was too horrible to grasp….I felt just as you do now. However, my faith and belief that the HOLY SPIRIT was my teacher and had an answer for me, moved me to pray about this dilemma. I felt like I was in limbo.
Several months later my daughter -in junior high at the time- was working on an art project. After its completion, she sought my approval, and I commended her for its beauty and color. She was to present it to her class the next day. To my horror, she smashed the object into pieces and started to cry. I asked her to tell me what the problem was and she said……”Mama it did not turn out like I think it should have”….
Immediately the HOLY SPIRIT spoke to my heart and said….”She was the creator and she had every right to do what she desired with her creation”……I bowed my knee and heart to HIS WISDOM and studied that chapter thoroughly. In my studies I learned that these people of the land were THE ENEMIES OF THE HOLY ONE. They were an abomination in their idolatry, they were full to deceases (and THE HOLY ONE HAD JUST BROUGHT ISRAEL, CLEANSED AND WHOLE OUR OF EGYPT) HE was putting them through the fires of testings and tribulations(like we all experience in our lives, in one way or another) HE was nation building. They had to learn the art of war or they would have been devoured,for the nations round about were stronger than they were. Look at Israel today with an Arab population that wants to wipe them off the map.
When Messiah asked his disciples….at one point in HIS ministry….(these are my own words)if they were ashamed and ready to leave HIM. I think it was Peter who asked where could they go, for HE alone had the WORDS OF LIFE. I feel your disillusionment stems from relying on the teachings of THE denominations of men. The HOLY SPIRIT is the only TRUTH TEACHER.THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF G-D….JESUS CHRIST.
The ALMIGHTY ONE IS THE LORD GOD. IT IS WHAT IT IS. I bend my knee and my heart to my sublime HOLY ONE, MY CREATOR, YHWH in JESUS CHRIST
I also know that the just shall live by Faith and like Daniel and the Hebrews in the lions den, God has the right to do HIS GOOD PLEASURE in all our circumstances….HE IS GOD.
Ruth
Richard,
Leaving Christianity is not a bad thing, I was a Christian up until about 6 years ago. What I found out is that we have been lied to as Christians. God is doing a great work in our lives as many Christians are leaving the church. It is happening all over the world. These Christians are returning to their Hebrew roots. You see, Christians still practice pagan practices. The biggest lie in the church is the TITHE.
God never demanded the nations to tithe and the tithe was never about money. The tithe was for the Levits who God said would come from the other 11 tribes to support the Levits. When God devided the land, he gave each tribe an inheritance but he did not give one to Levit. The tithe has always been grain, oils, incense, etc never money. 2nd lie is that we are not under the law but under grace. What people don’t realize is that there are two laws, the oral law and the written law. Jesus (Yeshua) and his followers fought against the oral law but not the written law. 3rd lie is that Sunday is the Sabbath and not Saturday. Wrong! Constatine changed the days. There is so much more but when you start to study the scriptures from a Hebrew perspective, then your eyes open up even more. It’s like being born again, again. God Showed me what else is in your bible wheel that I don’t think anyone else has seen. Maybe they have I have not read everything that is on here. Do you know that your bible wheel shows the power of 3, 6 and 9? The same thing that Tesla used for his inventions?
Art
Hey there Art,
I agree that there is a mass exodus out of institutional Christianity, thanks largely to the freedom of information we now have with the internet. Just as the invention of the printing press in the 15th century played a central role in the Reformation that broke free from oppression by the Roman Catholic Church, so no the internet is helping millions of people break free from the shackles of false religious beliefs in general.
But as for the “Hebrew roots” movement – I don’t know what version you are into, but from what I’ve seen the whole thing strikes me as saturated with quackery and made up doctrines promoted by self-appointed “Messianaic Rabbis” with absurd teachings about “paganism” in Christianity. I mean, sure, Christianity has lots of pagan mythology in it, but that’s because the pagan mythology is in the Bible. You can’t fix this mess by going back to “Hebrew roots” which really is “pagan roots.” Where do you think the story of Creation in Genesis 1 came from? O the story of the flood? The Serpent with seven heads in Revelation is just the Hydra of Greek mythology. And on and on it goes. You can’t get away from the paganism of Christianity without getting away from the Bible itself.
And have you never considered the implications of your theory of “Hebrew roots?” If it is true that all Christianity has been corrupt since at least the time of Constantine in the fourth century, then why do you believe the book that they produced? The Bible was gathered together and promulgated through history by the supposedly pagan church. Therefore, you have no reason to trust the NT at all. They must have infected it with the pagan doctrines about Jesus being the son of God, like Apollo the son of Zeus. The Hebrew roots movement is entirely corrosive to any form of faith in “Yeshua” because it undercuts the only knowledge we have of him, namely, the NT.
As for the powers of 3, 6, 9 ~ I am guessing you are talking about 39 books of the OT and 27 = 3 x 9 books of the NT? How does this relate to Tesla?
Hope you don’t mind that my opinions might differ a bit from yours. That’s what makes the world go round, eh?
Great chatting!
Richard
Richard,
Well now I understand why YHVH did not give you the rest of the bible wheel and had to show someone else other stuff that is in there. I understand your frustration and YHVH will be the only one to bring you back to where you were when he gave you the Bible Wheel, as far as your gental walk with him. I will just tell you this much and when you are ready for the rest then he will tell me it’s time for you to know what else is in there as he told me that you had already commented on my comment.
Do you know about the 4 levels of interpetation of the Bible? The 4th one is Sod. Not Sod like grass it is (S oh d) this is the deep things of YHVH. This is where you were when you found the Bible Wheel.
Well I was there being taught about YHVH’s musical notation which was changed in our music in 1800’s.
Any way, as I was there, YHVH took me to your website showed me the bible wheel and then showed me another level.
Here is just a little of alot that you missed out on.
Where the Alef and Genesis begins, in each collumn you have the numbers of each book for instance, First collumn in the bible wheel is Genesis 1, Isaiah 23, Romans 45. Each number representing the books of the bible. Yes you already know that! Now using the mathamatical system where you take the the numbers down to the smallest integer you find the following.
Remember there are only 9 numbers in our numbering system 0 is a placement holder.
All numbers taken down to the smallest integer.
Genesis-1 stays 1
Isaiah-23 becomes 2+ 3=5
Romans-45 becomes 4+5= 9
add up the numbers 1+ 5+ 9 =15 which is 1+5 = 6
Now YHVH told me to add up the books and when I did they all came out to 9, 3, and 6 all the way around.
2nd Collumn
Exodus-2
Jerimiah-24 becomes 2+4=6
1st Corinthians 46 becomes 4+6=10=1
add them up 2+6+1=9
3rd Collumn
Leviticus 3
Lam-25 becomes 2+5=7
2nd Corinthians-47 becomes 4+7=11
add them up 3+7+11=21becomes 2+1=3
There is your 6,9 and 3 which Tesla told his students, ” If the world new the power of 3, 6 and 9 they would have the key to the universe.”
This happens all the way around the Bible wheel.
I won’t show you the rest until YHVH says you are ready for it.
Get back in the SOD with HIM!
You are greving Him by the way you are reacting to some of the comments they leave you. Remember when you react with anger, ask yourself why? Why do I have to react in anger and not just in peace? Remember His ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts so for anyone to think that what they know is it, all the truth is foolishness. We only use 5% of our brain! LOL! How could we think what we know is the full truth. I just proved to you that YHVH will not give one man all wisdom, they could not handle it. So I don’t fight or argue with people over the scriptures, it is not my job to convince, but just to share what I have learned up to this point. I thought what Christianity taught was truth, we both found out that was a lie.
Be well my friend, Shalom!
Art
Richard, as a philosopher at heart (rational/perceptive) like yourself, I have placed the same problems on the backburner. 25 years of research has proven the Bible as something that sits outside of time, and yet if we remove those troubling paragraphs that have been eating at our subconscious all these years we would be simultaneously destroying many of the “proofs” that solidify the bible as a supernatural book. A catch 22 if you will.
Did not God answer prayer when he lifted the veil and allowed you to understand the Bible Wheel? I too was on a similar quest of discovery in the mid 90’s with much smaller yet as profound discoveries that I never published – I simply presumed others more qualified than me would “see” it and write about it. 17 years later and the books I expected to see are still unpublished, still hidden much like your bible wheel even though it is in plain site! Yet as I look back, these discoveries were instrumental in MY “Christian Faith”. They WERE MEANT FOR ME as the bible wheel was MEANT FOR YOU! One of the most incredible discoveries in Judeo Christian History. I don’t have the “one” answers for you brother – one of my human heroes was Ahmad Shah Massoud, a Muslim who was Bin Laden’s Arch Enemy – I do not believe this freedom fighter who loved America is in hell, and yet I still call myself a “Orthodox” christian? Because there is a hell – an inescapable dimension inferred in our bible and in science as well – Does not mean good men like Massoud are there for not accepting Christ in this life! Did not his choice to Battle Bin Laden “the Evil one” prove he was on the right side? Can the choice of who we battle and not just who we follow be responsible and telling of what door we have answered? I do not believe Massoud, a hero who miraculously (with Gods help) beat the Soviet army is in hell.
I was recently troubled by Bin Laden’s burial at sea much as you may have been also, but here is one of those coincidences that I seem to “see” much like yourself….
How interesting? “The Evil one” Osama Bin Laden was disposed of and delivered directly to one of earths deepest (inaccessible) ocean trenches while ”The Lion” of panjshir rests atop one of the tallest mountain ranges on earth! How poetic, how symoblic – A Picture of Christian prophecy, heaven and hell – played out in the Muslim world’s battle between good and evil. Milt
Hey there Milt,
Thank you for your thoughtful post. It would be very interesting if you would like to share that discoveries that were never published. If you want to, you can sign up on my forum (free and easy) and share them there. A lot of like minded folks will then get a chance to see them.
I suppose my discovery of the Bible Wheel could be thought of as a kind of answer to an implicit prayer, since I really want knowledge like what I found in the Bible Wheel. But if it were just for me, I think I would have preferred he kept it to himself. It kept me busy for a lot of years, but it only added to my loneliness in this life. And this only goes to show the vanity of saying “praise God” for any particular thing that happens to us. It’s really impossible for us to judge if what happens to us is for good or for ill. It’s like the old parable. A man’s son falls from his horse and breaks his arm. His neighbor says “How unfortunate.” The father says “We’ll see.” Then there is war and all the young men are drafted but his son, and the neighbor says “How fortunate” and the father says “We’ll see.” And then … you get the picture. Fortune and misfortune, the goodness of God’s will, who can judge it in this life? So I just don’t think about that any more.
The real issue for me is that the conception of God is inherited from our ignorant and barbaric ancestors. Have you ever read the writings of Martin Luther? I’d rather follow Adolph Hitler! Why anybody respects the “Church fathers” is a complete mystery to me. They were small minded, misogynist, bigoted, anti-Semitic propagators of the hell-myth that destroys the minds and morals of all who would believe it. Whoops … sorry, I’m starting to rant. People used to be killed for less than what I just said. And that’s the history of religion.
So what about the Bible Wheel and all the good we see in Christianity? I don’t know. It’s a mystery to me right now. And I’m fine with that. I don’t have to have all the answers, and indeed I certainly don’t expect to get many. This life is for living, not for answering all the philosophical mysteries of existence.
I’m glad you don’t believe people go to hell for not believing the Gospel, but I’m sorry that you still believe there is a hell. Who do you think goes there, and why?
Great chatting,
Richard
Art,
You wrote:
What an arrogant comment! You don’t “know” anything about me, God, or the Bible Wheel. Your big “discovery” that you falsely claim was given to you by “God” is a trivial fact not worth mentioning (as I will show below). But even if it were worth mentioning, there is no way that you could have known if God had or had not shown it to me. What arrogant JERKS come out of the “Herbew roots” movement! It’s like you are all cut from the same “know-it-all G-D talks to me” cookie cutter.
There you go again! What fool doesn’t know about PRDS? Who are you to be teaching others? You don’t know me from Adam. You don’t know “where I was” when I found the Bible Wheel. The unmitigated arrogance of people like you constantly blows my mind.
Oh really now. It was “YHVH” who took you to my website? Not Google, not your browser, but YHVH himself? Sure … that’s believable. And then the Almighty Creator of the Universe told you a trivial fact about digital sums? I guess he’s not as smart as people say, eh?
You ARROGANT BUFFOON! You know NOTHING of what God did or did not “show me.” And what he supposedly showed you is trivial, as I will now explain.
You could have avoided wasting all the time writing all that trivial crap if you knew one ounce of real mathematics. The process you describe as “All numbers taken down to the smallest integer” is known as the “digital root.” The fact that there are only three possible values (3, 6, 9) for the digital root in this case follows trivially from the formula for the sum of the numbers on each Spoke:
Sum of numbers on Spoke n = 3(n + 22)
As I’m sure YHVH must have told you, the digital root of a multiple of 3 is always divisible by three, so it must be a 3, 6, or 9.
This demonstrates one of the greatest evils of religion. It makes FOOLS think their own foolish ideas are revelations from the Almighty Creator of the Universe!
I’ve been watching this phenomenon. It blows my mind. Religion deludes people unlike anything else I could imagine. And what else could we expect when fools are told that mere “belief” is a virtue, especially if there is no objective evidence. Indeed, it is an even greater virtue if it is directly contradicted by the evidence!
Dang! I thought I was in for another amazing revelation! Let me guess. You were gonna explain how 1 + 2 = 3, right?
Why can’t you see the absurdity of your assertion? If nobody knows God’s ways, then why do you think you do?
And don’t worry about my supposed “anger” – if you’re fine with God ordering the murder of thousands of innocent women and children then why would you have a problem with how I answer a few comments on my blog? It’s not like I KILLING BABIES like your God commands.
You’re speaking for yourself I presume. 😉
The only thing you “proved” is that you know nothing of mathematics or YHVH.
And so you jumped from the frying pan into the fire? Not a smart move. You should have just pissed on the fire and put it out like I did.
I hope you don’t mind my plain speech but you deserved it Art. You have no idea how ignorant, arrogant, and deluded you are. I feel sorry for you. If you want to stay and chat about it and get a little “undeluded” I’d love to help if you are willing.
All the best,
Richard
Hi Richard- My name is Colin Davids(real name)I love the work you did with the bible wheel. Brilliant revelation.I was very blessed and excited when i first discovered your website. Ionly stumbled upon your website recently. I am however sad about your stance about christianity.
I am a South African. Growing up under the Apartheid regime made me very suspicious about the christian religion. As an african we used to say it is just a whitemans poisonous religion and wanted nothing to do with it. I thought of it as the ultimate tool of colonization.Another popular saying of ours were-“when Jan Van Riebeeck landed on our shores in1652 ,the settlers had the bible and we had the land- now we have the bible and they have the land….. THANK GOD FOR OUR FREEDOM SINCE 1994. I was one of the comrades that struggled against apartheid with the ANC and the United Democratic Movement. Today I am extremely well educated, I have an above average IQ,the CEO of my own multi-million dollar company ,a well respected citizen and a happily married man of 17 years.
I regularly warn people about the dangers of “kissing their brains goodbye” when it comes to matters of religion and spirituality. I have seen much abuse, hypocricy,falsehood,mindless delusion when it comes to christianity as a religion and apose it vehemently,but guess what – I am still a born again believer of Jesus Christ. Despite legitimate and serious issues you have raised ( and i Wrestled and Researched many of them before and after i became a follower of Jesus),i don’t believe we must throw the baby out with the bath water(as the English say).
I think we can sometimes in our study of all these bible codes and bible wheels and revelations like this, and i really appreciate it,lose sight of the plain text and message of the scripture. Someone once said” It is not the things of the bible that i don’t understand that bothers me, it is the things i do understand that bothers me more”
The main theme of the bible is that of a loving God who loved mankind so much that He gave his only Son not to condemn us ,but to save us. John 3 vs 16,17. This is the ultimate truth of the bible. I have read some of your blogs and are aware of some of your issues with the christian faith and hope that this will be the first of many comments between us. Some of the issues i would like to address:-
1. Is our conception of God the heritage of ignorant and barbaric ancestors? I think not. Maybe these women and men were highly intelligent,spiritual and godly. We can deal and resolve some old testament “exterminations”.
2. Does a loving God send people to hell? What is hell?Hell was not created for humans,but for fallen angels,demons who are the arch enemies of God and humanity. We have free will. We can even reject God, who is light and love. So when we end life here in time we enter into eternity without light and love and thats a hell of a place to be. We merely continuing on the journey we have chosen here. The bible says thieves,robbers,murderers and the like goes there. Imagine being in a place such as this and in utter darkness and lovelessness…as a result of your choosing. Despite God’s desperate attempts to appeal to you to choose Him.
3.The errors,discrepancies and immoral acts assigned to God. Name some? It would be interesting to deal with them. I have dealt with many. But just a thought. What would happen in our world if there were no system of justice and accountabilty,discipline and punishment. I think all hell will break lose. We cannot create God in our image.He must fit into the smallness of our finite minds. We cannot have societies that runs only on love but ignores justice,because the reality is that we are living in a fallen world where evil is very much a reality.
4.Does God answer prayer? Absolutely!!! Ask millions of South Africans who has been persistent in praying for our nations freedom from the bondages of Apartheid. I can personally give you many instances of Jesus’ faithfulness to answering prayer in my own life. Testimonies of wives,hus
bands,children.
5. What is the true gospel? It is the gospel of Grace. God giving us his unmerited undeserved,unearned favor of His righteousness,goodness and blessing through faith in Jesus Christ His Son and not through the LAW(mosaic) or human effort of righteousness.
Whatever has gone wrong in this world,in this life in your life and mine,a loving Saviour can ultimately redeem.
“You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free” -Jesus
Be Blessed in Jesus Name
Let’s chat soon
Mr. McGough,
I only had a brief moment to look at the issues that you have raised regarding your decision to reconsider your beliefs of Truth based on other mens distortion of that Truth for self-profit and your own unresolved theological issues. It is with a sincere desire to serve you, wash your feet and point you to the Love of God the Father that I am writing these few lines. I do not think that God our Father minds it when we take time to inquire of Him regarding His divine purposes so that we build the foundation of our eternal destinies on the unshakable Truth of becoming Sons of God who are led by His Spirit.
In saying this, I applaud your desire to have the God of the Word reveal The Living Word to you. I believe that if you ask in humility and contriteness of heart that you are in a place of discerning your destiny for the immediate days ahead and the rule and reign of those who remain faithful.
I would also like to encourage you regarding the lies and deception that you point to as your own open disgust with Christiandom. Our Lord and Savior, the Lord Jesus said to those who did not have the nature of The Father in them, “If you were Abraham’s seed you would have love……..d.” Yes, there is the rest of the verse. I believe that the root of the matter is within this phrase. The light of your own conscious has allowed you to see the matter of Ergun Caner’s deception for what it is. He does not have the nature of the Father in him. I entreat you, “do not let the log in his eye cause you to stumble and become offended.” For, each man will give an account of what He has grown in his own heart for the day will reveal it.
Continue to put your trust in your shephard. Don’t be turned aside from so great a salvation as the Covenant of God’s Love authored by the blood of His own dear Son because of other men’s deception and greed. May you be kept in this day and at His appearing. -Carol Baugher
Richard, after running dozens of answers through my mind of how best to answer / debate some of your questions (typical of our knowledge seeking temperaments) I was left with the realization that hidden within your words was a description of my own parallel heart aches I have been battling for 17 years (less my continued trust in Jesus Christ and his teachings)
You have been one of my Christian “Mentors” and “Heroes” for many years now, and your loss of faith in Christ left me a bit depressed and on my knees in prayer (something that I rarely do)
As for Hell, the only authority I would ever quote is Jesus’ own words on the subject, which are paradoxically codified through the Bible Wheel’s discovery.
Nothing else and no other views matter…..Christ simply confirms its existence.
You say that the real issue for you is the “conception of God”. St. Paul answered this brilliantly when he said that there are not (2) Christians in the world who will view God (concept) in exactly the same way! Amen.
I will keep you in prayer -time does not always heal our wounds, and not all things are for good as is so often said by misguided clergy – but time does bring us each day closer to our maker which on that day……. “Christ will wipe our tears away”.
Thank you for all your research, your time – and the gift of the bible wheel.
Milton
Hi Milton,
I really appreciate your comments. The thing about the “words of Jesus” is that they need to be interpreted like anything else in the Bible, and they do not seem consistent with other teachings concerning the nature of God as love. And worse, the concept of hell violates any rational understanding of justice too as far as I can tell. So here we have a fundamental teaching of Christianity that seems to violate two other fundamental teachings. So what’s a man to do? After much thought, I realized that I just don’t believe the doctrines of Christianity.
I would be interested to know how you see the Bible Wheel confirming the doctrine of hell. I never noticed that myself.
As for the “conceptions of God” – where did Paul teach that everyone would have differences about that?
If you would like to pursue this conversation, I would invite you to register on the forum (it’s fast, free, and easy) since the comment software is better there.
All the best,
Richard
Richard, I used to read your website all the time and it’s been several years since. I was watching the movie “Contact” the other day and the wheels within wheels (the transport machine) reminded me of the Bible and the Bible Wheel revelation. I was surprise to find that you’ve rejected “Christianity” as you and most of us understand it. Even though I’m not in the same place as you, I have opted out of many of my old ways of thinking and acting (thank GOD! lol). I’m actually writing to let you know how refreshing I find your “real” responses to these messages…and your sincere honesty and openness about the conflict. You make really good points—I’m sure God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit aren’t nearly as shocked or agumentitive as the people posting on here. It’s all going to work out in the end without a bunch of religious know-it-alls saying stupid things. For me, I used to spend and waste so much time analyizing … all the human effort wore me out. What we all need is a big blast of light bulb moments direct from God. I especially love your response to Conrad above and had to write and tell you. It’s like poetry lol! Also, I understand why you’ve changed your mind. Sometimes the best answer is saying nothing at all…except to say this life is a journey and we’re all on our own path. God speed. –Glenda
P.S. You’ll understand more later, wait and see.
Hi Glenda,
Thanks for the encouraging words! You seem like a “kindred spirit.” And I love your simple confidence that “It’s all going to work out in the end.” That’s great! 🙂
It’s interesting that you mention the movie Contact. Do you remember the scene when the pages were decoded by putting them together as cubes rather than in two dimensions? I was going to use that as an example of how the Bible Wheel works. It is only when you display the information in a “higher dimension” (three dimensions rather than two in the movie) that you see how the parts fit together. It’s when you display the Bible in 2D rather than as a one dimensional list that the patterns appear.
Thanks again for your comments. It would be great if you wanted to participate in the forum. We could use more open-minded Christians there.
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/
All the best!
Richard
Dear Richard,
Greetings from a passionate lover of God and a sincere devotee of the almighty and infinitely humble and wise Lord Jesus Christ. My heart is lifted up and its awe amplified by your miraculous discoveries that I’ve only recently tuned into. If anybody ever deserved it in the modern world, you are truly “Saint Richard” and you do deserve it for this gift of service to God’s true glory that you’re bringing to the world. As a scientist of faith myself I find your revelation to be a timely one for the world as we embark on what I believe to be the most important period in human history. In this note I offer a strange, but well researched (though only briefly explained) view of another approaching event that I perceive to be mathematically designed to the same code you’ve found in the Bible as described so well in your documents. This is event that was long ago predicted by religious masters, namely the December 21, 2012 Winter Solstice cosmic alignment.
Based on my own intuitive feelings about the 2012 Solstice and the “coincidental” connection between the alignment of my own namesakes (orion) three belt stars around the current Winter Solstice I took a lot of time and energy and went ahead and carefully mapped the 2012 Winter Solstice alignment pattern based on modern mapping technology (Adobe Illustrator) combined with the ancient method of Vedic Astrology as revived for the world in its original form and taught in India by the line of Gurus of the SRF Fellowship. This was only possible because the ancient science of astrology was accurately reintroduced to the world by Sri Yukteswar in the 1890’s through his book “The Holy Science”, published by the Self Realization Fellowship (founded by Yukteswars foremost disciple Paramahansa Yogananda). Thus, by anchoring the 2012 Winter Sostice Calendar Map to the ancient zodiac “spike”, the fixed star Spica, solidly 246 light years away, a divinely brilliant and miraculous, 7-day mathematical event leaps out exactly centered around the Winter Solistice 2012 at 22 degrees above the zodiac horizon – which codes to what I calculate as the EXACT Fine Structure Constant of the Universe, as hinted as by Richard in your work on this site. There is even a “space-time” collision on the exact 2012 Winter Solstice as the Zodiac position of Earth moves from 22-21º as we move from the 21st to the 22nd of December and these values over 7, the number of days in the event, yield both the value of pi as 22/7 and 3 as 21/7. The symbols chosen for these zodiac positions then become very suspect as “intelligently designed” to manifest these patterns exactly on the date they are going to manifest, which is coming in less than one years time on 12-21-12.
The trick to really understanding how this came to be is in seeing how modern zodiac calendars are decoupled from the Earth’s precession and “officially” we don’t know the exact rate of precession of the Earth, but to the ancient Rishis it was 24,000 years precisely. 12,000 years ascending and 12,000 years descending, which corresponds to an anti-rotation of 1º every 66.66 years. Coincidentally, this corresponds to a value with great symmetry to the 24 hour day as 1º daily movement around the sun is 6+6+6+6 hours. My guess is that the ancients figured these out and knew them and taught them openly, but that there are deceivers operating from the shadows that have hidden God’s truest signatures from our eyes so we can tricked into buying things we’d never otherwise want. As I see it this best explains the data otherwise the alignment of the 2012 Solstice would never be so exact in it mathematics to the Bible symmetry nor the cosmic fine structure, nor would so many legends from so many places be converging onto this historic period all at once simultaneously.
I’ve been completely amazed at how the numbers all just sort of worked out when I made the map and looked at the design of our zodiac and calendars and saw how the 2012 Winter Solstice truly is a cosmically “planned event” that undoubtedly has both divine and sinister forces operating behind. I believe God, via Christ and all his other great prophets and messengers, has secretly implanted this Code into the world so we can discover it as we are doing. I believe it is the actual Code to the universe’s creation from the eternal uncreated God whose spiritual light shines upon the code to create the woven holographic illusion that we all experience as our existence separate from the indivisible, unchangable spirit that constantly gives us all life.
In short, I offer my interpretation of an overall Code that God has guided me to see as a very likely candidate for the actual Creation Code of the Universe. The code manifests the exact Fine Structure Constant as measured by Quantum Physicists using the most advanced technology in the world today so it is backed up by evidence from all the available data that I’ve come across. It seems that the start of Creation is a “sacred vibration”, known as Aum, Amin, and Amen, depending on which heritage you are trained from, but the numerical value of Aum is exactly what is appears to be in the ancient Sanskrit manifestation, which is 729 = 3^6 = 9^3 = 9x9x9 = 1690-961 = 13x13x10-31×31 = 10^3-271. Coincidentally, this is also an EXTREMELY good candidate for the “Mark of the Beast” as prophesied in Revelation, “his number is 666”.
Furthermore, I find that the same symmetry pattern discovered by Richard as the key symmetry forms embedded within both the Menorah and the Bible are similarly manifest in the 2012 Winter Solstice alignment event, which is a seven day event spanning the 3 days prior to the 2012 Winter Solstice, the 12-21-12 Winter Solstice Galactic Center Alignment, and the 3 days following that end on Christmas. This looks like this:
12-18-12 ~ 25º above zodiac horizon ~ Orion star 1 (Mintaka) aligns to the Earth-Sun
12-19-12 ~ 24º above zodiac horizon ~ Orion star 2 (Alnilam) aligns to the Earth-Sun
12-20-12 ~ 23º above zodiac horizon ~ Orion star 3 (Alnitak) aligns to the Earth-Sun
12-21-12 ~ 22º above zodiac horizon ~ “Sun Dies” at Winter Solstice on Zodiac Cross ~ Earth aligns exactly to the Sun across the Galactic Center (Ophiuchus) on this 2012 Solstice
12-22-12 ~ 21º above zodiac horizon ~ 1st day after Sun’s death, star 3 symmetry
12-23-12 ~ 20º above zodiac horizon ~ 2nd day after Sun’s death, star 2 symmetry
12-24-12 ~ 19º above zodiac horizon ~ 3rd day of death, star 1 symmetry, rebirth occurs at the beginning of Christmas at the end of the 3rd day following the Sun’s death on the Winter Solstice cross of 2012.
Anybody who researches the significance of the Orion belt stars to the ancient time keepers will thus likely find a deeper connection to our modern systems of calendar making than would likely be guessed at, but these data show an amazing connection to an eternal code being displayed for us to see that is undoubtedly an important code for us to be aware of and to understand as best we can.
The key pieces that I see here are the parallels in the overall design of the creation stories as told in the different traditions that manifest the same mathematical geometry. This is especially evident with respect to the center day of the week corresponding to the 2012 Winter Solstice and to the actual “Sun’s death on the zodiac cross”, wherein this day in the Creation story of the ancient Rishis is known as the “interface between spirit and matter” as if to reflect this exact interface Jesus was guided by God to die on the Cross as a symbol of what would eventually unfold in Heaven above on the 2012 Winter Solstice. I believe the facts attest that we are in store for some major unfolding of ancient prophecy based on these facts and I’ve found an exact value for this sphere and the other Seven Sphere’s (i.e. “Seven Days”) of Creation that exactly matches the measured Cosmic Fine Structure value and which “COINCIDENTALLY” utilizes the same geometry manifest in the Bible as shown by Richard through the Bible Wheel. Using the same set of principles once can easily construct the vibration of the measured cosmic Fine Structure. It looks like this:
Beginning = the word = Amen = 729 = 3^6 = 1690-961 = 13x13x10-31×31 = God’s sacred vibration, the cosmic quantum [=(17+10)x27] = the initial symmetry of the Amen vibration to yield the overall geometric resonance that is measured as the Fine Structure (I’ve made images of this that I can also share). Then the further amplification of the vibration to yield the overall geometry we detect is a lot like the Creation Holographs Richard has discovered and it is yielded by multiplying the Aum/amen vibration with the following:
Aum = 729
Day 1 = 1001 = 7x11x13
Day 2 = 100001 = 11×9091
Day 3 = 999999 = 7x11x13x27x37
Day 4 = 99999999^42 = (9x11x73x101x137)^42
Day 5 = 999999999^5 = (3x27x37x333667)^5
Day 6 = 9999999999^5 = (9x11x41x271x9091)^5
Day 7 = 999999999999^94 = (7x11x13x27x37x9901)^94
Thus, AumxD1xD2xD3xD4xD5xD6xD7x10^-1575 = 7.29735269827×10^-3, which I bet is the actual code God has chosen to create the actual hologram that is us, with the spirit of God being the only true substance from which all is actually made.
Put another way and using a little more of the teaching of the yogi Sri Yukteswar with respect to the Seven Lokas of Creation of the ancient Indian Rishis, it looks as such:
In the beginning was the Word = Amen (~Aum) = 729 = 3^6 = 1690-961 (this is God’s sacred vibration)
Day 1: God Created the Heaven and the Earth = 1001 = 7x11x13
Day 2: Sphere of God’s eternal substance = 100001 = 11×9091 (rem: 90+1=91=7×13)
Day 3: Sphere of the Sons of God (God’s pure spiritual reflections) = 999999 = (7x11x13x27x37)
Day 4: Interface between spirit and matter, sphere of magnets and atoms = 99999999^42 = (9x11x73x101x137)^42
Day 5: Sphere of magnetic poles, auras and electricities = 999999999^5 = (3x27x37x333667)^5
Day 6: Sphere of Fine Matter and electric properties = 9999999999^5 = (9x11x41x271x9091)^5
Day 7: Sphere of Gross physical matter (easily perceived by all) = 999999999999^94 = (7x11x13x27x37x9901)^94
What is then the most amazing part of this entire story is that the 2012 Zodiac manifests the following equations based on the symbols chosen for the relevant components of the 2012 Winter Solstice alignment event:
1690-961 = 729 as the sacred vibration of the Aum formed by Gemini (II, which looks precisely designed as a double pi or 72) and Cancer (69) as they meet exactly across Winter Solstice at the Galactic Center anti-position on this approaching day. The symbol for Ophiuchus as “the snake bearer”, which looks like two snakes coming from a man’s groin, is also symbolized as two snakes-woven around a cross as though entombing the deceased. To my eyes this symbol was arguably designed with the number 961 in mind, which is also the number for “Heaven” as taught by Richard. God is infinitely intelligent it seems and we’re only beginning to understand the truth behind this factual reality.
Lastly, the further seven day pattern reveals another astonishing connection to holy prophecy. The 7 days and three stars leading to Christmas, along with the death of the Sun and the three days of death following before his rebirth manifests the prime elements of the Creation Holograph, which is the inverse of the cosmic fine structure and it appears to code for what is undoubtedly the “sign of the Lamb” of 777 = 7x3x37. The three seven code has more forms than even Richard has mentioned, I’m here suggesting, though perhaps he’s already done these calculations and I’m repeating something otherwise already known, but the further appearance of the code as 73×3^7 = 159651 also manifests a clear parallel to Bible’s creation story and to the measured Fine Structure since 729=3^6 and 3^6x3x73 = 73×3^7 = 159651.
This number has astonishing rotational symmetry since 651 upside down looks just like 159. 651 is also 7x3x31, which is similar to the sign of the lamb as 7x3x37 = 777.
What is also amazing is that if you subtract 144,000 from this you get 15651, which is 3x37x3x47 and it therefore manifests symmetry forms that are higher order and very relevant to the Creation Story of the Bible and match the observed alignment patterns we see in the 2012 Winter Solstice patterning.
I predict all will be known to us before too long and whether I’m correct about my own ideas here or completely wrong about them (though they are carefully and accurately researched) I completely honor and salute Richard for the Great Gift that his revelation has provided as a clear view into the true beauty manifest in God. Yours is a gift I see as complete scientific proof of God’s infinite love for me and the rest of you. What a great gift Richard has given us all through his hard work and brilliance. What could possibly be greater than such a gift as this??? I can’t think of any. I pray my own efforts will eventually yield similar fruit, but I labor for God forever regardless with sincere gratitude for life.
All my thanks and appreciation in Christ, Amen
-Orion Johnson
Hello (again) Richard,
Sorry for posting twice in a row, but I’d sort of posted my thoughts without appropriately relating to the issue at stake here in a clear manner. I referred to your work as a divine gift to the world that made you as qualified as any in history to be a true Saint, but I didn’t acknowledge your right to refuse such an offer. Just like you, I broke from my original faith in Jesus when I was conflicted by the obvious moral dilemmas imposed on me by the mainstream Christian teachings I was getting from my local churches. I left seeking a scientific understanding of reality that was based on a purely factual investigation of reality, which led me into science at UC Berkeley as a Molecular Environmental Biology major. I learned about evolution and went on to work with the Director of NASA’s Center of Life Detection, Ken Nealson, as a PhD student in his Astrobiology and Geobiology group at USC. My investigations left me searching critically for a deep understanding of the fundamental features of life as I was trained to detect extraterrestrial biosignatures in any form that I might ever encounter them anywhere I look under the famous NASA Director I’d been “lucky enough” to be hired by.
During my fourth year of my PhD project I survived an intense rock avalanche/landslide event during my study of serpentine geobiology that should have killed me, but that I somehow felt I was divinely inspired to “dance through” and that I miraculously survived with only a permanent shin scar as a physical reminder. A year later at a spiritual retreat with a famous “economic hit man”/shaman the same serpentine rock avalanche was colorfully and ominously described to me as my “universal healing spirit” by the shaman, though he knew nothing about it having already occurred in the manner witnessed from his vision. And so I returned to a profound faith in a spiritual reality behind the universe itself in a personal manner as I never would have predicted in a million years would happen in this lifetime, but ever since departing the church after having been baptized I was seeking to help establish a bridge between science and religion that would help us overcome the dilemmas that made me originally leave searching and similarly are making Richard admit the obvious by noting the problems that we can all see and measure with our hearts.
As “luck” would have it, following my experiences with the shaman and my active sharing about what I perceived to be a true miracle since I’d actually survived an unsurvivable situation and then had it “gifted” to me as my “healing spirit”, my parents told me that my middle name had come from a story about a spiritual boy who was written about in the book Autobiography of a Yogi, by Paramahansa Yogananda. It turned out Kashi was told he would soon die by Yogananda and then convinced Yogananda to try to find him when he was reborn. Yogananda miraculously was successful and not only did he find Kashi, but he found Kashi on “aptly named Serpentine Lane”.
Yogananda was then sent to the United States by his line of Gurus to bring for the first time the original teachings of Christ and Krishna and to show their essential unity. His message was one of true humble service and divine love for all creatures with an understanding of the infinite eternal spirit as the true God behind all forms.
In this view, which I see as the obvious original teaching of Jesus, hell is the place everybody lives when they view themselves as separate from God and don’t actively seek or open their minds to the possibility that God has anything to do with their experience of reality. Yoga means “union with God” and the concept of creation as a crystallized thoughtform of God is exactly what the Aum and the Amen and the Bible Wheel are telling us, but if we don’t realize this then we can live in perpetual self-created darkness “forever”, through incarnations limitless, until at some stage in the eternal process some spiritual master will figure out how to attract such darkness back into the bosom that all forms did originally arise. The mechanism for God’s justice to balance on the level of the human soul is therefore, reincarnation, which also explains why the Earth has been creeping more and more towards hell as the leaders have been working to fool the world into seeking God less on an individual spiritual-karmic level and more on a group-think sheep type of level where we don’t question the teachings of the institutions and we obey all commands of our leaders even if it requires that we do things we know in our own hearts to be sinful. In this manner, clearly the world is due for a restoration of the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus brought to the world to rid ourselves of these dilemmas, which I see as intentionally laid down by beings we don’t see, but who we can easily measure. I see these beings as the true devils that Jesus described and their presence is also the thrust behind my own return to a profound faith in Lord Jesus as the Greatest Master in the world. That and the fact that the SRF Yogis and Yogananda, himself, said that Jesus is the greatest master in the world. They seem to know what they’re talking about and their science allowed me to connect the Bible Wheel symmetry to the ancient Vedic Calendar and to the Mayan Calendar and to the modern zodiac calendar in a very profound and geometric way that could not reasonably have been accidental so the science therefore makes it clear that Lord Jesus is the best guy to hold in your heart as the Lord of All Lords and the Father of us all. Jesus would happily say that many other figures are equally as Great, such as Yogananda and many others, but only because he knows that they also have united their souls to the One spirit of all of us and so also live in the true service of God. I see the same spirit in Richard and I FIRMLY believe that you could never have been blessed with such astonishing vision had you not purified your soul almost completely to the level of Christ himself.
If reincarnation is the mechanism God uses to manifest infinite, eternal wisdom and justice for all beings from one indivisible, unchangeable spirit then I’d bet a good deal of money that Richard was the original Saint John the Evangelist who wrote a lot of the coded treasures we find in the Bible itself, including Revelation. I believe that such is the true nature of God and occasionally we find out the whole story and this might be one of those times because of the nature of the prayers beings made around the world that God does seek to answer.
Lastly, I believe that over eternity all prayers are answered. Only through the eternal mind of a God-realized person does the timelessness of God’s answers make perfect sense, hence much of the confusion related to whether God is actually doing the hard work of creating the universe as we truly dream it. In the end, he is, but finding ourselves as the dreamers and the dream is the true teaching of the Great Masters. Jesus, as a man, never took credit for creating the universe as “the created can never be greater than the creator”, but as the spiritual being he understood himself to be and that he could manifest through his teachings and miracles for all to measure and witness Jesus made it clear that he was the Creator. This is not to say that Joe or Wendy could not also discovery the same thing within themselves, which is where I find there have been deliberate alterations between current mainstream Christianity and the original teachings. I think the obvious conclusion of the “Return of Christ” tenet in Christianity is the immortal wisdom and creative brilliance of God, which naturally means to my mind that the following equation makes a lot of logical sense:
Life = (the most amazing thing you can possibly imagine)xinfinity
I definitely believe I share with God such a view of life as being the actual way God understands the universe with each soul being the dreamer behind version of God’s infinite eternal dream. In this framework “hell” is always avoidable and only self-created, but finding the path out requires one to learn the art of spiritual advancement as taught by Jesus. The path of attainment seems to clearly lead scientific seekers invariable towards the same Code that makes it pretty self-evident that the universe itself is likely a holographic creation based on a high order symmetry code that God chose to wrap around himself to create the illusion of separation from a singular omniscient, eternal, indivisible, all-loving, all-knowing, spirit.
If you guys search for signs of the prophesied “beast” who is expected to “come again” as told repeatedly in Revelation you will also find very clear evidence of who this beast is and what it is. Jesus said plainly, “Many men will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.” – Rev 17: 8-9. I discovered the beast to be completely real during my PhD research under the NASA Life Detection Director Ken Nealson during which I came across profound evidence of our own military and government experts speaking out en mass about a global cover-up of extraterrestrial and UFO activity that was ongoing and had a part of human history from the start. The people speaking included several NASA Astronauts, two CIA Directors, Chief of Defense of the UK, military generals from several nations, and thousands of other witnesses, including many of the staff from the program I was working in at USC who’d become sincere witnesses to astonishing UFO events that should have made national headlines, but didn’t and never do despite their frequency and measurability and the logical impacts of such an observation.
The big problem I discovered was the despite the obvious presence of extraterrestrials operating on and around our world the officials at NASA became intentionally unwilling to discuss the data showing clear evidence of deliberately operated vehicles operating in our skies that far exceed our own ideas of what is possible and that our own military and NASA personnel have long been reporting are ET craft. My boss decided to censor me from a debate about his to the point that I withdrew in protest and have been searching for answer ever since as to why the NASA people would rather search for ET than detect ET successfully. I realize that fear and deception are the most probable reasons and that the ETs we’re dealing with are without any doubt to my mind the prophesied beast that Jesus warned us about who will likely present themselves to us as our saviors, which will really be the great deceiver trying to gain our allegiance to his grand lie.
My favorite witness to the alien cover-up is our own Air Force Sergeant Karl Wolf, whose testimony to the National Press Club I’ll never forget. He describes being part of the NASA Lunar Orbiter mission and being in the dark room seeing raw images coming in that showed bases on the backside of the moon!! This was in 1965 as we were mapping the moon for the first manned landing sites, supposedly. Sergeant Wolf was working under strict security protocols so there was no sharing what he’d seen and only because of its significance did he finally break his oath 35 years later to speak out. Many, many others have similar stories that paint a big, clear picture that humans are being opposed by aliens who seek to sell us their crap and fool us into bankrupting ourselves forever as we seek more and more of it on debt that we won’t ever be able to pay back.
This view of reality is completely supported by the facts I’ve long been working out and it is clear that an collusion between aliens and human bankers+corrupt leaders is the cause of most of the world’s suffering. If we liberate ourselves from the deception of such beings then the truth about Christ and eternal life can become something that not only gets answered as all prayers eventually do, but something that gets answered in a measurable amount of time on the scale of individual lives. I see that we are close to when the time comes for all to be unveiled. I see Richard’s revelation and those of many others, such as myself, all to be united towards a grand awakening in which we see the path to our own liberation and the path towards human sovereignty over the earth.
Lastly, I find the group alliesofhumanity.org to describe the nature of the alien beings opposing us to be the best among all descriptions available. It seems that all conscious beings have skills that humans have only recently begun to understerstand (or remember from ancient times) and these skills include telepathy and other powers that are more relevant to our sovereignty in the universe than we’ve ever considered. The resources of Earth, including us, are greatly desired by our cosmic neighbors, whose own technolgical societies demand resource exploitation on an interstellar level. The wise species of this universe, therefore, protect their resources that all life depends upon for its existence, less they fall under the dependent control of foreign traders seeking authority and position over their planet. This is exactly the situation I think humans are in after looking carefully at all the facts and soberly accepting the testimony of the officials who’ve spoken up. I see Jesus sacrifice as the ultimate one because it laid down for all to learn in one form or another the code of the universe’s creation, along with a great deal of overt wisdom, along with some distortions that have been implanted during the dark ages that make it less obvious what is really being conveyed and how we should relate to it. Now is simply the time to reawaken to the eternal message of the scripture and use it to elevate our minds above the minds of our opponents, which it does only through the Revelation of Richard and the others who’ve put this site together.
In the end I think we’re all one big, strange, eternal family that extends from the beginning of creation all the way to the end, but the wise don’t have to continue incarnating and so the truly wise only do if it is in service to God. I think a lot of us are in such a sublime state at the moment.
With spirit, Orion Jay Kashi Johnson
Hey there Jay,
Thank you for a fascinating post! I read Yogananda’s “Autobiography of a Yogi” last year and was very impressed by how it read like a “Christian devotional.” There is much about the Hindu worldview that makes a lot of sense to me, especially the ultimate Unity of the One Self.
There’s a lot I would like to discuss with you. It would be great if you registered on the forum (fast, free, and easy) because that software is much better for long and involved conversations like what you have started. I can’t really do justice to it here in these little comment boxes. So please come on over to the forum and copy/paste your last post and I’ll respond more there.
https://www.biblewheel.com/forum/forum.php
All the very best,
Richard
I remember seeing the Bible Wheel quite awhile back and was impressed by all the work that you had put into it, though I can’t say that I understood much or saw the significance of it. So, I must get back and check it out again. I am usually suspect of any type of gematria, bible codes and such.
I suppose you may have better threads on the forum to discuss these things, but when I read your reasons for changing your belief system, I wondered if there weren’t some more pertinent underlying motivations, and that the ones you listed were more the intellectual “reasons” rather than the real reasons. The last reason saying it was “the last straw” seems to hint at being angry at God for perceived unfaithfulness toward you. So, that’s why I thought perhaps you had some other unexpressed motivations for leaving orthodoxy or any doxy. I wondered if your wife’s belief systems and yours were clashing and you surrendered your beliefs for that reason. I’m not making any accusations of course, because I don’t know the facts, just asking questions and expressing my concern.
Regarding your faith in Jesus Christ, is there some reason why the items you listed contradict maintaining your faith in Jesus Christ as having died for your sins and having been raised from the dead on the third day? Does the existence or nature of Hell affect what we believe about Jesus being the Savior and Son of God? Did Jesus say that we had to believe in hell in order for Him to accept us?
Regarding the 2nd item on your list, I have yet to see anything to make me question the Bible’s accuracy or God’s integrity including his treatment of the Canaanites or any other ites. So, this includes my perception of God’s justice in consigning the lost to the Lake of Fire as well. I have to assume that you investigated the supposed “errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations” to see what scholars of the past have written on these things.
Regarding answers to prayer, God has never failed to answer a prayer that He heard according to John’s epistle. Unanswered prayers are apparently ones that were outside of the will of God, or else they would have been heard and “answered”. I would be interested to see if there are statistics on this comparing prayers answered for various relgionists. Some have been confused as to what the prayer of faith is and what asking in the name of Jesus means, and experienced unanswered prayer that way. I think that when we are truly grateful to Jesus for suffering torture and death on our behalf, we don’t really care if He gave us another thing in this life, that was more than we deserved.
Jim
Hi Jim,
Thanks for the interesting questions and comments.
We are very similar on this point – almost everything I’ve seen having to do with gematria, bible codes, and such has been worthless.
There is no “hint” of any anger at “God.” The fact that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers is just that – a verifiable fact. It’s very easy to establish the truth of this fact. Take 100 devout Christians and 100 atheists, put them in a room, and give them all the plague. Let the Christians pray and give the atheists antibiotics. Who lives? Who dies? Case closed.
Have you ever seen Benny Hinn’s Healing Carnival? Thousands of Christians get up on stage declaring that God has healed them of all sorts of illnesses. Hank Hanegraaff (the Bible Answer Man) asked Benny to give him the three healings with the best confirmation. He reported that not one could be verified! Christians who believe that God generally answers prayers are not being honest with themselves. Any Christian who has lived long and prayed much has seen most of their prayers unanswered. Think of the millions of starving children who beg God for just a morsel of food! Think of all the Christians with all sorts of diseases that pray for years yet are never healed. The sense that God has been answering prayers is an illusion caused mostly by selective memory. Now don’t get me wrong, there could be an answered prayer here or there – I have no knowledge to say otherwise. But I can say with complete certainty that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers in the way that the Bible says he would. As long as we humans were dependent upon God for our health and welfare we suffered and died early deaths. It was only after we learned how to make antibiotics, for example, that we could have REAL TRUST in being cured. If you got cancer, would you have any authentic faith that God would really cure you? If so, why? You know that God does not, as a general rule, heal Christians with cancer no matter how much they beg.
Without hell, what are you being saved from? An annihilationist would say “death” I suppose, and that is a path I explored when I was a Christian but was never satisfied with it. But Christians don’t like that answer anyway because then the sinner “get’s off” without paying for their sin. And that touches a fundamental problem with the Gospel. It destroys the meaning of the word “righteousness.” Righteousness can not be “imputed.” That makes no sense at all. A person is righteous depending on how they act. Christians are very inconsistent on this point. They say everyone is guilty because of “inherited sin” but then invent weird doctrines about the “age of accountability” because they don’t like the idea of babies going to hell. Blah blah blah … why believe any of this stuff? It all seems like ancient ill-founded religious superstition to me.
The real issue is not if I could believe in Jesus and the Resurrection, but if I have reason to. I would have to adopt a worldview that seems false to believe in Christianity.
And there’s a lot more too it than that. I do not believe that there is a God of the kind described in the Bible. Traditional Christian theism presents God like a “person in the sky” who goes about doing things. But he doesn’t actually do anything as far as I can tell. He certainly does not answer prayers the way the Bible says. So if I can’t trust God to save a child from cancer (something that would be verifiable), why should I trust him to save a soul (something completely unverifiable)? The points in my list are related – the fact that God does not do what the Bible says he would do implies that kind of God doesn’t doesn’t exist, and/or the Bible is wrong. I don’t see any reason to believe any of it. Why do you believe it?
Yes, I most certainly have investigated what the scholars and apologists have said. The writings of the apologists prove only one thing – the attempt to justify Christianity corrupts both their minds and the morals! For example, William Lane Craig (one of the most famous apologists) said God did no wrong to order the killing of the Canaanite children cuz they all go to heaven! Great! That implies that abortionists are the greatest saints who ever lived, because they got some people in heaven that would certainly have grown up to be unrepentant sinners destined for eternal hell. And Craig is thought to be one of the best apologists out there. It’s all mindless gibberish.
If you have not seen anything in the Bible that makes you question its “accuracy” then I must conclude you have read precious little of it. I think what you really meant is that you have found “explanations” for the countless problems you have seen in the Bible. Isn’t that more accurate? Unfortunately, the explanations you have chosen to believe will not stand up under close scrutiny.
Have you ever read Numbers 31? Do you really believe that killing everyone except 32,000 sexy virgins who were distributed to the soldiers accurately represents the “unchanging moral absolutes” that we all should live by?
If you find no injustice in God inflicting an infinite punishment for the crime of not agreeing with some Christian dogma (if you were sufficiently “lucky” to be born in the right time and place to even hear about it!) then I won’t bother explaining it. And if folks who don’t hear the Gospel go to heaven anyway, then preaching it would be the worst thing you could do since it would become the cause of infinite and eternal suffering. The whole body of Christian doctrine is fraught with these kinds of problems.
It is absurd to say that God only answers prayers that are “in his will” because if it was already in “his will” you wouldn’t need to ask. That’s merely a fatalistic explanation about why God doesn’t actually answer prayers. So it’s really “in God’s will” to have all the children with cancer die? It must be! Their parents cried and begged and pleaded and prayed to God for healing for their children, but he said no. Of course, it’s alright with God if an atheist scientist finds a way to cure his child of cancer. So we can’t invent “mysterious reasons” why God let’s the children of devout Christians die. There is only one answer – there is no God who goes about “answer prayers” as a general rule.
Sorry if my answers seemed to sharp at any point. It is not my intent to offend in any way. But I do like speaking plainly and encourage you to do the same. I really appreciate that you took the time to right.
All the very best to you,
Richard
Hi Richard,
I was on the Mike Williams webpage and noticed this. I thought you might find it interesting.
Mike was a big help to me and a few others who were in the process of leaving our old church. A lot of what he was saying we were in the process of working out in our own minds.
Anyway, I thought you would find it interesting.
Bob
Why I Quit Being A Christian
The term “Christian” appears a grand total of three times in the entirety of the Bible. Luke uses it twice in the Book of Acts and I Peter has it one time.
The word “Christianity” is NEVER found in the Bible.
The first time “Christian” is mentioned in the New Testament is Acts 11:26. Here it is said that in Antioch the Disciples were first called Christians. The Disciples never called themselves Christians. Jesus never once called His Disciples Christians.
The people of Antioch did not devise this term out of respect for the Disciples nor out of admiration of the Gospel. It was used to mock the Disciples and to show contempt for the Gospel.
The term Christian then appeared again when King Agrippa used it in Acts 26:28. Paul had shared his testimony of having become a believer in Jesus before the King. Agrippa replied to Paul’s impassioned appeal by saying, “Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian” Paul never once in his appeal implored Agrippa to become a Christian. Agrippa must have been relying on what he had been told Paul and his ilk had been called.
In all of Paul’s letters not a single time did he address the people he wrote to as Christians. Of all the writers of the New Testament, only Peter used the term and then only once.
I was trying to think of contemporary example of an emerging group or movement where a derisive term was used to “label” that movement.
For those of you in the U.S. you’ll remember back a couple of years ago when the political Tea Party began to take shape. The folks who disagreed with the Tea Party and its ideas labeled them “Tea Baggers”. Let’s just say, it was not meant as a complimentary term or one of endearment!
Now imagine if you will that the Tea Party decided to embrace this less-than-laudatory identity. Then, years later, someone looked up the meaning of the term Tea Bagger and decided that if that’s what we are we should become the best damn Tea Baggers who ever lived!
I do hope you catch the humor and irony of my little comparison. However, what Christianity has done with the term Christian is far from humorous. I remember being told in church that the term Christian meant “Christ-like”. Trying to be like Christ led me to three attempts of suicide, a world of hurt, filled with massive depression, shame, and guilt.
Now we’ve had Christians running around with wrist bands reading WWJD?—What Would Jesus Do?! Give me a break. Jesus did not die and rise from the dead to create a group who would try and emulate Him. He did it all to set us and all of humanity free! What could one do to emulate Jesus? Become the Savior of the world, the Prince of Peace, the Author and Finisher of Faith?
The world does not need another Jesus, another Savior. The world needs you to be YOU! Just like there will never be another Jesus, there will never be another you.
The Gospel can be received into one’s life without ever becoming a Christian. The Gospel and Christianity are NOT synonymous. In fact, the Gospel and Christianity are so incompatible that in actuality to embrace one is to reject the other!
Christianity forced me to abandon the Gospel of Peace and the Gospel of Grace as a young child. This heinous religion blinded me to the Gospel’s reality and thereby blinded me to my true identity in Christ.
And? Well now I am overjoyed to say that the Gospel’s freedom has been realized in my heart, mind, and soul and it has freed me from the shackles of a man-made religion call Christianity. Yes, I am no longer a Christian, because I am free!!!
Love,
Michael
P.O. Box 572
Olney Il. 62450
freedom@gospelrevolution.com
Phone – 352-569-4889
Hi Richard,
Your three primary issues with Christianity led me to think deeper. Here is some useful information I found on the internet:
1) The Doctrine of Hell
http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/
2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.
http://www.apocalipsis.org/difficulties/midianite.htm
3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
I read the following verses today and immediately thought about you and prompted me to write this message …
Romans 8:24-28:
“For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.”
Thanks for raising these questions as my faith in Jesus Christ has been strengthen in the process!
With love and respect,
Kit
I am looking forward to reading more of your insight on this wheel,
In terms of your beliefs of the bible, i think you are correct about religion and think it is right to hate it, it is too destructive, christian is a poor term as others have said but I think it is important to attempt to use the words of our culture in order for us to be easily understood, If you believe that God is all knowing, I hope that you will find that responses to prayer are not mere coincidence, you must be aware that the bible writes of both the spoken and written word of God (greek roots), I do think that the spoken word of God is the complete and whole truth but the written word has been in man’s hands for to long for it to still be 100% perfect, however this does not account for the example you gave of God getting His people to kill babies, we think that by our limited understanding we can know God fully, this is a lie too many people believe, we can only attempt to read His word in context and find the correct interpretation and know how to apply it to our own lives, I believe that the holy spirit is involved in this process giving wisdom and understanding,this applies for me with the idea of God condemning people to hell which I cannot accept to be true, the bible does say somewhere that God does not condemn, and I beleive that somehow God gives us all the oppurtunity to be justified by Jesus,
you do not need to answer these questions,
Does your worldview reflect God?
what leads you? your heart your mind or your soul?
Have you tried to hear God’s voice?
I want to encourage you to keep pursuing answers to your questions
I hope this thread is not dead
Zack
Hey there Zack,
I’m glad we agree that religion is all messed up and should be rejected.
As for the idea that there have been “responses to our prayer” that are not “coincidences” – yes, I admit that as a possibility, but only because I don’t know everything so I am not able to state categorically that they never happen. But I can state quite categorically that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers, and that’s enough to prove the Bible false since it promises that God does answer prayers. And this is the great irony. When Christians are first confronted with the fact that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers, they usually deny it and assert that he really does answer prayers. Then after some discussion, they begin to explain why he doesn’t answer prayers, (seemingly forgetting that they are now agreeing with my point).
I don’t see any need for anyone to be “justified by Jesus.” Why can’t God just forgive? You and I do that every day. I don’t demand someone’s firstborn be killed before I can forgive! Why can’t God just forgive?
As for my worldview: I tend to think there is a spiritual foundation of reality, call it the Cosmic Mind or simply “Consciousness.” I don’t think there is any personal God who goes about “doing things” like the God of the Bible. But even if there were such a God, I could not believe it to be the God described in the Bible because of the insane way that God acts. Genocide, KILL EVERYONE. Take 32,000 virgins and distribute them to the soldiers (Num 31). Afflict Israel a three year famine because of something a previous king did, but don’t tell them about it (2 Sam 21)? It all seems nuts to me.
Yes, for many years I tried to hear God’s voice. And for a long time I thought I was successful. But as the years went on, the “voice” became harder to hear. I finally concluded I was talking to myself. How do you distinguish between “God’s Voice” and you own imagination?
The thread is not dead. But if you want to talk more, it would probably be best to register on my forum. That software is better for extended conversation.
All the best,
Richard
Richard, whoever you are, the way you talk about the renunciation of your Christian faith gives the impression that you are celebrating a victory. It sounds as if you have recuperated from a disease. However, I’m worried you don’t realise that the disease of this world is the spirit of apostasy now dwelling within you.
For your information, anyone God orders killed, deserves it and you are nobody to judge it. Moreover, THERE IS A HELL awaiting those who reject Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God. And last, God is under no obligation to answer what you incorrecly call “prayers”. If you knew what a prayer is, you wouldn’t say he does not answer prayers.
You should, at least, be responsible enough to keep your repudiation of Jesus Christ to yourself and not divulge it to the world over the Internet. What a shame!
Hey there William,
Your assertion that “anyone God orders killed, deserves it” is totally absurd. You seem to forget that God ordered the murder of little babies. And he participated in the murder of every man, woman, and child in the tribe of Benjamin (except the 600 soldiers, for whom God helped in the kidnapping of 400 virgin sex-slaves and the murder of every other person, including little babies, of the tribe of Jabeshgilead, Judges 21). Your attempt to justify the moral abominations in the Bible only goes to show how fundamentalist Christianity corrupts both the minds and the morals of those who adhere to it.
Your assertion that I cannot judge the actions of God (as recorded in the Bible) to be evil means that you cannot judge them to be good since judgment means to discern between good and evil.
Your assertion that there is a hell means that you believe God has chosen to inflict an ETERNAL EVIL upon many people. How can you claim that ETERNAL EVIL is GOOD? Do you not see the madness of it all? And worse, it’s not even well founded in the Bible. It’s just a human doctrine that you have attributed to God. If you are wrong, you have committed the greatest blasphemy by attributed an eternal evil to God. Maybe you should think about that before you toss out your dogmas as if you were God’s own spokesman.
If it is true that God is under no obligation to answer prayers, but then no one would have any reason to think he would answer their prayer for salvation. And all Christians who tell everyone that they should trust God would be proven liars. So did you really mean what you said? We should not trust God to answer prayers? He doesn’t really care, and all the promises in the Bible are false? Is that what you meant?
And I have not repudiated Jesus Christ. I have repudiated the claim that the Bible is the “inerrant and infallible Word of God” and I have given good reasons for that repudiation which no one as yet has refuted. “Jesus Christ” is not even a well defined concept. Everyone has their own opinions about him – even amongst those who claim the Bible is the Word of God. God cannot hold anyone responsible for their opinions about Christ because he did not make himself sufficiently clear about what people must “believe” or why they must believe anything at all. On the contrary, if the Bible is “God inspired” then everyone must agree that God designed it so that no intelligent person could deny that it contains errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God. In other words, if the Bible was designed by God, it was designed to prove that it is not the “inerrant and infallible Word of God.” If God designed the Bible, he designed it to make Biblical fundamentalism impossible.
All the best,
Richard
Richard,
About 3 years ago, I conceived the idea that the Bible could very well contain much more than straight words, only if READ correclty.
How I saw it, was like a Rubik’s Book. Tri-dimmensionally so to speak.
Forget a Matrix, a ‘Rubik’s’ Book that contains not only words and values, but one that unraveled every piece of information in many different directions,levels and ways.
Looking for reliable sources to reach into the ‘meaning’ of each and every word and in trying to find some reliable data that somehow correlated our English Bible versions to the original Hebrew documents, I stumbled upon your website in early 2009.
Needless to say that finding the Wheel was a mind-blowing experience!
When I read (for example) that Bereshit is not only the very first Hebrew word in Genesis but that there is a whole explanation of purpose behind it (which by the way, could not be designed by people), I thought to myself… :”this is what I mean, this is the exact example of what I would expect in a God-given scripture”. Much more than… “In the beginning” in a single word. And what a meaning!!!
Now Richard, please pay attention to your own words…
Regarding the Bible Wheel Challenge, you said it yourself; “If you want something well done, there’s no two ways about it; you have to do it yourself”. Right? Well, now bear with God, he only had us humans do this for him, write the scriptures. And sure enough, he commanded that not a dot nor a coma be misplaced… but perhaps they did -get misplaced-, and then some. I believe that even so, the Bible holds much more than we know.
Having read your blog about turning from Christianity I sadly reflect upon it as pure frustration. I am not going to sit here and critique your decision, but wish -instead- to put this idea forward to you, as I presented it to an agnostic friend of mine some time ago;
If us humans, with our ever so limited brain capacity -as compared to God’s omnipotence- can dream of something, God surely can do it all. Agreed? You have to agree, just look around and see this world full of wonders.
So, before we begin passing judgement on his actions, why not give him a little credit for what he’s done and how he’s done it and deem it Holy in every sense, waiting to meet him and being enlightened to fully understand his ways.
You are simply not allowed to turn from him, to give up your faith for something that is not suitable to your liking/thinking.
Isn’t after all, the fear of God what brings you wisdom? Fear for a minute that you’ll be wrong in your assertions of his decisions and wait to understand how things took place.
Perhaps in this infinite creation, there are parallel worlds each of which, has a slightly different outcome for every soul and nobody is being harmed, but instead, a lesson is being conducted for each of us, while we are given a short (life span) opportunity to open our eyes and our hearts to his words.
Don’t limit the field of action of God to this planet. There’s evidence that the Universe is quite vast and possibilities for God are endless. Use your exceptionally acute gift to understand meaning and take it further.
I am sure that the Bible, using only 22 words, contains much more than we humans think. I know that it tells us in very plain language, how Creation took place and the origin of matter, the shape of the World, it’s History and Future.
We have inhabited the planet for thousands of years and science hasn’t even begun to understand the most abundant element in it (water).
Despite our human efforts to advance science, we only jeopardize the environment and science as we know it, only end up confirming the Scriptures.
God is light, the origin of all things. Isn’t that what CERN and the scientific community have brilliantly come up with recently? Findings that matter is bound by light (energy)?
In my humble opinion, you should look forward to applying your findings to further discover more and more in the words of the Book of God.
I am positive that they reveal a much larger (geometrically-spiritual) reality than what we manage to perceive with our eyes and our minds. It is a blueprint of Him=Word.
After all, in the beginning there was only the Word, the word Was with God and the Bible is the written word of God.
Accept the challenge to look further (deeper) into the coded messages, you have a gift and God gave it to you.
A wise man changes his mind. Putting this much together, has been brilliant, don’t stop now.
God bless you and your readers.
Shalom
Richard,
Thanks for your reply.
Indeed, Creation itself is fallen from the ideal state which God originally intended. There is a spiritual war in progress and all the moral abominations, violence and so on (which you attribute to God), are the consequence of OUR pride and rebellion. Good and Evil are at war. But remember, by the grace and sacrifice of God, the Seed of the Woman has already crushed the head of the serpent. (re: Genesis 3:15) at Golgotha (place of the skull).
Just think about what it took for the woman who crushed the skull of Abimalech to do so (re: Judges 9:53). It is a terrible fact of history which you count among the “moral abominations” of the Bible. If you start reading deeper than the surface, you will see the true nature of those events in preparation to the incarnation of God to save Humanity.
On the other hand, Hell is not a human doctrine; it is repeatedly described and explained by the Lord Jesus Christ throughout the Gospels. Not only that, He also attests to the fact that the Scriptures are the Word of God and invariably taught, instructed and corrected the people based on Scripture. Even when satan tempted Him, He would base his response and actions on the Scriptures; THE INERRANT AND INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD.
Jesus Christ IS the Son of God and He is the WORD.
Hi Victor,
Thank you for you very thoughtful letter. Much of it coheres with how I used to view things. But there is a problem. If I apply the same degree of intellectual rigor and honesty to the Bible as I do to all other subjects, I cannot merely ignore the problematic passages and doctrines. Your final comment is true – “A wise man changes his mind.” And that’s what I have done in response to the evidence as I best understand it. It was not an easy decision, but truth is truth and what man can live with himself if he denies what he believes?
For years I studied all varieties of “coded patterns” in the Bible. I found much that strongly confirms the message of the “plain text” – for example Spoke 22 on the Bible Wheel (the last Spoke) contains themes of consummation. The circle is “closed” with the Song of Solomon (Marriage Song), Acts where the Church was sealed with the Holy Spirit, and Revelation which consummates the whole story. I still think this is significant. And there are thousands of other connections that seem to confirm the Bible – and that’s what enabled me to make such strong proclamations of the truth of the Bible for over a decade. But now I see that I was “blinded by the light.” I failed to notice the many aspects of the Bible that are simply unbelievable, or worse, morally wrong. You say that I should not “pass judgment on God.” Well, if I don’t pass judgment, then I can’t say he’s good either because that is a judgment. Christian never say we shouldn’t judge God if we judge that he is good. So why the double standard? It is false judgment if the conclusion is given before the evidence is examined.
So this is the problem I am faced with. The Bible presents God commanding things like genocide and approving things like taking 32,000 virgins and distributing them along with the rest of the “war booty” to the soldiers who murdered their fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters and everyone they knew and loved. I cannot declare that “good” in any sense at all. And besides, we must ask ourselves why the True God would choose to present himself as if he were a Bronze age tribal war god. The obvious answer is that the people living in the Bronze age made up a god like all the other people living at that time.
And then there is the problem of hell. If such existed it would mean that God created an eternal evil. I am literally incapable of believing that God would do such a thing.
And there are other problems. It won’t help to look for more “coded patterns” because I cannot believe the plain text anymore. It doesn’t matter how much confirmation I might find in patterns or whatnot. The problem is that I simply can’t believe what the Bible actually states. There was no “Adam and Eve” some six thousand years ago. There was no universal flood that killed all the life on the planet some 4000 years ago. These are facts. The story of the Exodus contains many unbelievable things, like 6 million people wandering the dessert for 40 years. Have you ever tried to work out the logistics of that?
So it looks like there would be only one path back to the faith in Jesus. I would have to have answers to the problems I posted in this thread. But I’m pretty sure that is impossible, especially since every attempt to answer them given by Christians are often worse than wrong – they are typically absurd.
Again, I very much appreciate your comments, and if you think you have any answers to the issues that caused me to leave the faith, please feel free to share them.
All the very best,
Richard
Richard
I have no answers for you. Other than Faith. As much as we don’t fully understand the how or why of certain statements in the Bible, there are still, other signs that nobody can negate; the Holy Shroud is one such sign that Christ was here.
I think that trying to evaluate God’s word, is not our job. Trying to understand it. however, is a very interesting journey.
The way I view what we don’t fully understand is that his Kingdom belongs to the spiritual realm and that many of the happenings of this world take a context of purpose.
I believe that the word spoken by the Lord has to have a much deeper meaning and that we will one day, be in his presence where all Mysteries will be revealed to our limited intellect. Meanwhile, I think our Creator deserves our patience, devotion and respect.
Anything else, seems to me like an absurd challenge of wits.
In my view, people who ask why God orders this or that carried out, do so -apparently- from a perspective of equality. We are in no way equals to God.
As a very distant comparison, it is to me like a kid asking why his/her parents do things the way they do. We were all young one day and as you grow older, you get to understand those whys.
I will pray that as you received the gift of discernment for many issues dealing with the word of the Lord, one day, you will be revealed the full secret and be filled with joy.
Your findings have made some of us, extremely excited and I thank you for that.
God bless you.
Hi Victor,
I really appreciate your honest answer.
I am left mystified by your comment that “trying to evaluate God’s word, is not our job.” If we do not evaluate it, how can we come to believe it? If you were born Muslim, would you say the same thing of the Koran? How would you free yourself if you were indoctrinated in a false religion as a child?
When you say that “our Creator deserves our patience, devotion and respect” you are assuming that the Bible is the word of the Creator. The same assumption is made by Muslims and Mormons. If we don’t evaluate the different books, how can we know if we should believe any of them?
I agree we are not equal with God, but we are equal with all the people that have handed us the Bible and told us that it is God’s Word. So we are forced to evaluate the validity of their claims. I’m not such a fool that I believe something just because someone says so.
I agree it is a lot like parents. And some parents are very bad, and as the children grow they learn to discern between good and evil, and to make decisions for themselves. This is what I have done.
I know that the discovery of the Bible Wheel has blessed a lot of people and helped confirm their faith in the Bible. My rejection of the faith I once promoted must be very disturbing. But I am only speaking the truth as best I can understand it. I really don’t have a lot of choice in the matter.
Thanks again for you thoughtful responses.
All the best,
Richard
Ram; It is accepted that you most certainly have a clearer understanding of some parts of Scripture than most. But may I have just this moment to say. You have missed The G-d of the book you have an are studing and teaching.I show noe feel any disrespect to you for your views. But it is not G-d who sends any one to an eternal hell.It’s their choice’s. Whether or not we believe it or just discout it all together,does not alter the fact Hell is still there.It does not go away because we decide it’s not possible or effectual. It’s there!! Thank you for your time
Hi Charles,
Thanks for your comment. Your view of hell is very common amongst Christian apologists, but it seems entirely contrary to what the Bible teaches when says that God casts people into hell as punishment against their will. They did not “choose” to go to hell. They did not choose to be punished. But even if they did, what loving or rational God would fulfill such a desire?
In order for a person to be able to “choose” to go to hell, they must first believe the Christian doctrine about hell. But that’s exactly the opposite of what really happens, since the people going to hell (according to Christianity) go there because they do not believe! I’m sorry, but I find your explanation contrary to both the Christian doctrine and reason.
All the best,
Richard
I very much enjoy your site. I am glad that you have kept it up even though you have moved in a different direction in your spiritual journey. I think the questions you have are good. I am an esoteric Christian. It is a path the blends Gnostic texts, mystic meditation and contemplation, Kabbalah, and a personal journey into unlocking the metaphorical meanings of the Judeo-Christian texts. I hope that you find your Self and spiritual fulfillment on your journey, wherever it may lead you. I am an anthropologist with a dual specialty in psychological anthropology and comparative religion (a branch of cultural anthropology). My foci are ancient Near East religions, cultural psychology transference brought about by trade routes, slavery, and open cultural exchange, and the psychological anthropology of myth change in transference of religious texts and oral traditions. You may find more answers on your journey by learning more about comparative religion. It brings cosmology down to a very human level. A lesson learned and taught by Carl Jung as well.
Hi Jeremy,
I very much appreciate the insights provided by Carl Jung. I am inclined towards the idea that consciousness is the ground of being and that there is only one Self which manifests through each individual. But I am not certain about any metaphysical system so I’ve put all those questions on the back-burner for a while.
All the best,
Richard
Richard, I TOTALLY understand where you are coming from and why you have come to the conclusions that you have in your journey. There is a website and a gentleman who really knows how to dicipher the deep things of God and can explain all your questions and make sense of the things you don’t understand. The website is called Gods Kingdom Ministries. His name is Stephen Jones. He has a LOT of material so it will take a while to go through it all but if you take your time you will get all your questions answered. And Stephen will be happy to answer any questions you have personally. It’s amazing how he ‘understands’ the deep stuff that we have questions about! I know you’ll be happy you took the time to go through all of his stuff!
Take care my brother!
Robin
Hello Richard, maybe I missed it, but, what exactly is your persuasion? other than Satan’s, What do you believe? I also wanted to add that Jesus Christ, Yesu Chrestos, is the best thing that ever happened to Judaism. I use the Bagster’s Latin Vulgate, because Christianity of today won’t produce Bibles that are translated correctly that is a big problem too.
If you are saying you don’t believe in Yeshua, Jesus, or as I call Him, Yesu? you and everyone else you cause to loose their eternal lives will be in for a “BIG” disappointment, not just a big deconversion. Jesus IS REAL, and you know it.
Shalom to you,
The walk of Faith has nothing to do with christianity, judaism, or any other “orgainized religion”
It is a personal relationship with the Holy One, He is One, the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He came to earth in the Moshiach so that we may have eternal life with Him. Leaving christianity? Good. It has become full of deception for many reasons. The “Spirit” of scripture is true. The Holy Spirit leads us and teaches us as we read it.
If you or anyone else is depending upon deliverance through a book or through an organization…. the disappointment will continue always – for they all are deceiving and in erro.
Follow only the One who holds and delivers the truth. Leaving christianity only means you many now begin a journey on a “true” walk, as long as you keep Him in focus and ask for truth. I also left christianity – for I found it to be a false walk and had been based upon many lies. I have been walking by the Spirit since 2006 and have gained so much truth, that I now believe I can stand on the rock in these days.
I have proof that He answers prayers, whether yea, or nay. But He *will not* hear the prayers of a people walking in contrary to Him and in idolatry – which is the definition of the sect today called christianity. God Bless and I pray you keep your eyes on Him and Him only.
I just had time to ready some of the comments but I read you main article. Very good, lets be clear I left all the silly soul damnation crap years ago. It did not end my spiritual search. I stopped looking for easy answers and I stopped taking advice from currant sources. My story begins when I start searching the original sources. I read it and without blinders basically everything points to learn how to change my nature from for my self to the sake of others. From Reception to Bestowal. So the direct teachings of Jesus as a teacher does not conflict with this.
I have a great lot of respect for you, your work is amazing, the gematria portion of the site itself is the best and most exact on the internet. I start studying Kabbalah and I found it to be the most authentic and most scientific. I even found a teacher I think is authentic (Bnei Baruch and Michael Laitman), but the thing is you have to find to search, to wonder, don’t let anyone scare you, ask questions, demand answers.
I still love your work. I suggest starting looking into Kabbalah and the root words in Hebrew as everything has a deeper meaning. I also enjoy Aramaic and Hebrew and the profoundness between them.
I hope you find answers to your questions in the article, they are really profound and deep. Good luck
Hi Lora,
I am very familiar with your line of reasoning, but it seems utterly irrational to me. There is no logical distinction between all the various religions you mentioned and your religion. A rose is a rose by any other name. You have invented your own religion based on the “holy book” of Christianity. Even if it is true that the “Holy Spirit” leads you into truth, that “truth” is still based on the Bible (as is evident from your stated beliefs). Why do you trust that book if it was produced by a false religious organization? It’s like rejecting Mormonism while accepting the Book of Mormon as God’s Word. You may have your own private interpretation that differs from every other form of Christianity, but what makes you right and everyone else wrong? And what about all the points you and Christians agree upon? If you claim to be a true “Bible believer” then how do your claims differ from all the other “Bible believers” that call themselves Christian?
I very much doubt you have any “proof” that He answers prayers because religious people don’t apply normal standards of evidential proof. And I know that you have been deceived when you say that God answers “yea or nay.” How does his “nay” differ from no answer at all? You would get exactly the same results if you prayed to a mild jug. Watch this YouTube video and you will know what I mean. It shows that milk jugs always answer yea or nay just like God.
I really appreciate your comments. I hope you will feel free to answer with any followups.
All the best,
Richard
Hey Mark,
Did you just accused me of following Satan? Wow …
My “persuasion” is reality and truth, simple as that.
I don’t have any certain, verifiable knowledge about ultimate reality. I am inclined towards “idealism” which sees mind/consciousness as the “ground of Being” but I’m not committed to any particular metaphysical system because we are all ignorant about such things.
Your choice to base your religion on a Latin translation of the Greek and Hebrew Bible seems absurd in the extreme. The Latin translation introduced all kinds of errors. Why would you think it to be authoritative? If any Scriptures were inspired, they must they not be the original Greek and Hebrew?
No one’s eternal life is determined by anything I say or write. First, it would be ridiculous for any intelligent being, let alone God, to sentence a person to eternal damnation for failing to “believe” in Jesus! There’s no logic to that criterion, is there? I mean, most people have lived and died never hearing his name. How could they believe in him and be saved? Your believe that God is filling up an eternal place of torment all because those folks don’t agree with your religious opinion is about the most ridiculous and damnable doctrine that humans have ever invented. It makes God into an absolutely irrational moral monster.
When you say that “Jesus is real” – what do you mean? What is your standard for determining the “reality” of something you can’t see, touch, feel, infer from any facts or detect with any instrument?
And if I were to proclaim something that I do not believe and cannot prove in any way at all, what would that make me? A liar! Obviously, I can’t get saved by lying. So what would you suggest I do? Your religion doesn’t seem to offer any solution. You can’t prove your claims and I can’t lie to be saved, so what am I to do?
All the best,
Richard
Hi Richard,
I would like to at least respond to say that you perhaps are not as familiar as you think. For that, you and I would have to have a very long and detailed chat – but alas I doubt either of us have the time to type all that would need to be expressed or believe typing on an internet site would accomplish this!
One thing… please do not take down the Bible Wheel. Wherever your journey takes you, surely a compassion to others may remain… and I would count it a blessing if you would allow the Bible wheel to remain online for our continued reference in our studies.
Thank you!
ps – yes, the issue of eternal punishment is absolutey a lie set upon us by a deceived church. Just because man takes the Torah and twists it, does not make the Author of it untrue.
Hey there Geoffrey,
I love your admonition “don’t let anyone scare you, ask questions, demand answers.” Very well stated! That’s exactly what I’m doing.
I understand how you can read the Bible as a “spiritual book” guiding you into transformation from selfishness to love. But why choose the Bible at all? I know it is the foundational book of the Western spiritual traditions (both exoteric and esoteric) and so it has a lot of inherited “authority.” But when read carefully with open eyes, we see that it cannot be a guide as you suggest without radical reinterpretations of huge portions of the text. Therefore, we see that it is not I that is transformed, but I that is transforming the Bible into a “kinder and gentler” book that does not violate universal moral standards.
Thank you for your kind words concerning my work. I truly poured my heart and soul into it, and tried with all my strength to make it as accurate as possible. Even now in my state of “unbelief” the evidence appears to remain valid. The only difference now is that I don’t know what it means! It is a mystery to me. But that’s OK – the world is filled with mysteries.
As for the Kabbalah and root words in Hebrew, it was my study in those fields back in the early 1990s that led to my discoveries and conversion to faith in Christ. I don’t think it will help now, because I’ve “been there done that” and am no longer impressed with metaphysical systems like that.
All the very best,
Richard
Hi Lora,
I think an in-depth conversation could be very fruitful. That’s what the forum is for. Click on the link on the sidebar. Registering is quick and easy, and the format is a lot better for long conversations than this blog software.
I have no plans at this time to remove any material I have posted on the Bible Wheel site. I put a notice about my deconversion above every page so that I would not be guilty of deception, but I think there is a lot of value to leaving the material there. It shows how I was thinking at that time. And most of it stands as valid – the facts remain. It is only my interpretation of those facts that has changed.
Many folks would agree with you that the issue of eternal punishment is a lie set upon us by a deceived church. But if you don’t believe in hell, does that mean you are a universalist? Does everyone eventually get saved? Many early Christian believed that. But you can’t control the sheeple with fear if you don’t have a fiery pit to throw them in. This would be a very interesting topic to discuss.
As for the Torah – have you read Numbers 31 where Moses commanded that all the women and children be murdered except 32,000 virgins who were then distributed to the soldiers? There are many passages like this in the Bible that appear to me to be moral abominations. How can I believe in a God who would do such things? Why would I want to?
Great chatting,
Richard
Thank you Richard. You are very kind. I am attempting to register, I shall see how it goes. Yes, I have thought and studied much on both hell and Numbers 31! You are venturing into an area of life that comes to many of us: “Who is God?”
Chat soon I hope, and thank you.
Lora
Hi Lora,
I see you registered your name on this blog. That doesn’t let you in the forum because it uses different software. Click this link to register on the forum, and I will approve it right away and we can start the discussion. Given that you have studied hell and Numbers 31, it looks like it should be a very interesting conversation.
All the best,
Richard
It seems to me that what you have left is a mythic form of Christianity. The Scriptures represent a long theological conversation – a kind of trajectory of thought about the nature of the Divine. We, like the biblical authors, compilers, editors and so forth, can only talk about God from within our worldview – and worldview is a developmental process. I for instance do not believe, as the author of the Noah story did, that there is a God up there above the dome of the sky and that this God opens the windows of heaven to make it rain. Was the author wrong? Sure, about the physical process that makes it rain, but was he wrong about everything? I don’t think so. The author seemed to understand that, among other things, wiping out those you think “impure” won’t lead to a perfect world. Just a couple of chapters later the “descendants of Noah” (this is a story you know, not history), tired to take over heaven by building a tower to break through that dome. (Hey, not a bad idea if you think God opened the windows of heaven and wiped everyone out.) The biblical authors had an experience of God that they were trying to understand and so they described it in the only way they knew how. I do call myself a Christian, and when I do so, I mean that I’m interested in what the biblical authors were pointing towards; I do not believe have to accept the worldview that goes with it.
Oh precious Richard, I wont tell you who inspired me to tell you “Jesus is real” I’ll leave that up to your imagination. Happy Easter. What I understand is that you keep mentioning that God would make people suffer in fire for eternity,(this seems to be one of your ‘main premise’. I don’t believe people will burn in Hell “forever”, I believe it will happen very quickly,(they will be ashes under our feet, as the Bible says) because they refuse His Chrestos(goodness) and Light. If “all” scripture is weighed and understood correctly, your version of Hell does not exist. (see: Doug Batchelor, at “Amazing Facts”). I do believe That as Jesus stated that they will be in utter darkness, as the prisons of old had “no electric lighting as today they were very very dark places. I don’t believe Moses understood God correctly, that whole tradition pre-dated his birth,(burning someone) revealed in Genesis, concerning Judah. I believe God brought forth Jesus to put an “end” to the old covenant. And that what God truly wanted was “mercy not sacrifice, “as Jesus” said. In revelation what does John tell us to “Hold on to”, the (Spoken-10) “Commandments of God, they don’t mention harming anyone, only that they will not go “unpunished”, and the “Testimony of Jesus Christ”. Jesus told them in essence to “drop the rocks” concerning the adulteress woman, and “being without sin” didn’t even cast a stone Himself, but reflected His Father’s Mercies. As far as Latin is concerned, as recorded by the ancients, on the cross of Christ was His name written in Greek, Hebrew, “and Latin”. And I as many others believe The English versions like KJV is not “correct”. There are some serious problems like “adding” words that are not in the Greek. Have a “Good/Chrestos” day Sir, extreme love…Mark C. Vinson.
Hi. i get your sense of disappointment about Christianity. imo it is a cheap knock-off of the Nazarene faith; the original faith of Yashra’al/Israel re-established/re-confirmed by Yahusha/J-sus. While the “Hebrew Roots” movement is well-meaning i share your sense of the dubious about it. imo, the Messianics are Hellenistic and Pharisaical in nature; recall that the Pharisees were sworn enemies of Yahusha/J-sus. The thing is, the original Hebrew way and culture is largely based on the practical not the abstract Pagan/Greek understanding. It is easy to realize the errors in understanding which come from translating between these diametrically opposed cultures!!!
On the killing of women and children in K’naan/Canaan. Have you ever seen the movie Alien? The story involves the killing of alien children/hatchlings found in human stomachs and what amounts to a “woman”/mother alien. Many of the people of K’naan (Canaan) who were being destroyed were hybrid (joined with demons)/illegal entrants into humanity (human/demonic offspring); i.e., the Naphalym who were sworn enemies of natural humans; or humans that supported their existence at the expense of the rest of humanity.
i experienced a similar “loss of faith” when i couldn’t reconcile YHUH’s word with man’s; but i chose to throw out the bathwater of human religion, not the baby. Many others reject YHUH because they can’t reconcile why YHUH asks that certain things be done seemingly deemed immoral by YHUH or human understanding. But as i suggest, with a Hebrew understanding we understand, e.g., “Thou shalt not kill” (Greek understanding) is actually “Do no murder”.
YHUH doesn’t owe us an explanation; yet allows us to seek out things, learn of and prove YHUH’s righteousness. The Adversaries have done a thorough job of misleading the people of this world especially the suspicion of YHUH we inherited from our first two parents which led to the downfall of all of Adam.
The common belief of Hell and torment is a bastardization of the writings of Hanwkh/Enoch (yet more pagan interference); i encourage you to read 1Enoch (the Ethiopian to English translation) to learn about the receptacle for the spirits of the dead which the text suggests is inside this earth not in “heaven”. Yahusha/J-sus even referred to Eliazar/Lazarus and the Rich man and the states of their souls at death; their spirits maintained the imprint of their last state–one comforted in YHUH/bosom or faith of Abraham and no longer suffering, one in torment; the persons from which those souls came from were “asleep”. Also, Revelation speaks of Hell on horseback. Hell is a part of living reality not a place where your soul is tormented by demons. The idea of going to heaven is a wish of the Fallen Ones to regain their former estate. And the lake of fire/bottomless fire is a final deal (forever is in terms of loss of survival and forfeit of life of the ones going into it as there is no escape from it); not eternal torment.
As for the answering of prayer; prayer can be seen as an abomination to YHUH because the asker has a misunderstanding as to its purpose and method of doing it. From personal experience i know that getting an answer requires my willingness to accept the answer (which is sometimes not what i want). YHUH is not a vending machine that we can buy favour or gifts. YHUH being the El/G-d Yon/Most Beyond (Paleo Hebrew)/Most High (Modern appellation) can see beyond our limited vision and knows ultimately what is best for us. YH is after all Father/Mother (function not gender) of those who accept the gift of Salvation through YHUShA (Yah Saves)/J-sus (or “H-sus”, “the Horse” mixed with “Zeus” or “Djeus” the highest pagan deity of Greek Paganism) which should actually be transliterated as “Joshua” or more properly “Johusha” in English. It’s interesting that the translators got “Shatan” or “Adversary” right.
As you (or others) give up the Paganism of Christianity i encourage you to keep faith in YHUH-YHUShA the only Saviour of this world and our souls by the personal testimony of YHUH. His Ruach/Spirit can lead you into all truth. But it takes trust and faith and a willingness to obey.
Shalwm.
oh awkward… i meant to say “As you (or others) abandon* the Paganism of Christianity…”
Hi Mark,
Thank you for your comments. You wrote:
So now your are claiming that your comments are directly inspired by God?
Your position is known as “annihilationism.” I explored that as a solution to the problem of hell for some time but finally concluded that it didn’t really help because it is rejected as heresy by the vast majority of Christians and I had no reason to make up my own religion. After trying to “fix” the many problems with Christianity, I finally realized I was no longer a Christian. Doug Batchelor is a Seventh Day Adventist which is one of the thousands of splinter groups with all sorts of curious doctrines that are contrary to historical Christianity.
If Moses got it wrong, then why trust the Bible?
I agree that “the English versions like the KJV are not correct” – but neither do I have any reason to think that the Latin version is “correct.” The only documents that really matter in this discussion are the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts as witnessed by the surviving copies. The translations are useful to help understand how folks interpreted the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts, but are not “authoritative” in any way at all.
Thank you for your love. Same to you.
Richard
PS: Why do you constantly refer to Christ as Chrestos? Those are different words. The one means “anointed/messiah” while the other means “good.”
Hi Sam,
You appear to have a very nuanced and intellectual approach to Christianity. I think that’s great, but it gives me no reason to think that the Bible is “true” in any sense that would demand a “faith response” from me.
Your said that the “biblical authors had an experience of God that they were trying to understand and so they described it in the only way they knew how.” Why should we make that assumption? Why should we believe that they had any “experience of God” at all? It looks more like they were experiencing natural events like storms, earthquakes, wars, and famines and were trying to understand those events as if there were a god behind it all, just like all the other primitive and ignorant people of that time. Is there any reason I should think their fantasies about their god are any more real or relevant than Zeus or Baal?
Thanks for your comments.
Richard
Yes, the Hebrew roots movement is full of folks who have invented their own ridiculous religion.
But I don’t see any solution to the problems with Christianity could be solved by merely updating the translations. That’s not where the problem lies. And besides, your assertion that Greek is “pagan” doesn’t make much sense in light of the fact that most if not all the NT was written in Greek.
I’m sorry, but your “science fiction” explanation doesn’t work for me. There is not a word in the text that supports your speculation and it seems utterly absurd from my point of view. The idea of fallen angels having sex with humans was imported into the Bible from the pagans. For example, Jude quoted from the Book of Enoch which is filled with pagan mythology about fallen angels having children with women.
The problem has absolutely nothing to do with any “human religion” or “human understanding.” You and I have no other form of understanding, because we are humans. I see no value in inventing my own religion to “explain” every problem with the Bible. The real question is this: Why should anyone begin with a belief in the Bible at all?
And there is no “Greek understanding” vs. “Hebrew understanding” of that command. The Jews themselves were speaking Greek in Palestine at the time of Jesus, and had translated their scriptures into Greek.
I agree that the book of Enoch is pagan, and the concept of hell too. But those pagan concepts found their way into the pages of the Bible, so you can’t believe the Bible and reject those pagan beliefs..
It looks like you have invented your own religion.
And why do you write J-sus? That looks like a silly imitation of the silly Jewish practice of writing “G-d” which is all based on silly superstitions. The Bible never writes names that way.
As for prayer – you would get exactly the same results if you prayed to a milk jug rather than to god. Check it out: The best optical illusion in the world.
The Bible is saturated with paganism. The seven headed dragon of Revelation looks just like the Greek hydra which predates it by hundreds of years. God chained the fallen angels in Tartarus just like Zeus chained the Titans there.
And the big question is this: Why do you think your newly invented religion is true? If God really did inspire the Scriptures, why has no one ever understood them “properly” as you do?
All the best,
Richard
Richard, I’ve followed your research on the numeric organizational structure of scripture since 2005. I’m interested as to why you’ve decided to archive your life’s work, as it is quite useful, important and informative, in particular, for prophectic, apocalyptic studies and deeper understanding of the meaning of the word of G-D from its Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic origins. Why, at this juncture in the history of man and biblical time have you made the decision to archive the biblewheel site, probably at the time it will be most needed? NOTE: This question is NOT related to your decision for deconversion from christianity. I have learned much from tis work. Thank you for your time, effort and research. It is appreciated.
Hi Lisa,
Thank you for your kind words. The “archived” site is identical to how it was before my deconversion. I didn’t want to change anything so there would be an accurate record of what I used to believe. I put the “archive” notice so folks would know that I no longer consider myself Christian because I don’t want to misrepresent who I am.
All the best,
Richard
Hi Richard, I have come to the place where I do not know what is true anymore, I feel so grieved and lost. I was born again over 22 years ago..been to bible college, ministry training among over things.. I had gone back to the Hebrew.. learning about the meaning of of the letters ect..I found your bible wheel about 5 years ago.. What I want to know is after all your research.. the journey that has gotten you to this place..do you still believe there is a God? Did you ever have answer to prayer and if so was it God? Also did you ever hear him speak to you.. Is there a bigger picture than all this thay we know? And where does the bible ie all the books.. the scroll.. verything that seems to fit so perfect.. in order..is this just chance? Is any of what we thought we knew even true…I would dearly love to hear back your thoughts all this.. thank you.. Tess..I feel like Solomon at the end of his life.. “all is meaningless”
Found your site and spent much time reading.
Very interesting esoteric comments about your studies from 1990, certainly not one usually hears for a springboard into Christianity.
Did you know the Chick tracks are still around?
Regarding your 3 points:
Contradictions – I did a word search here and did not find any mention of Marcion, and his supposed heretical anti old testament stance. Cutting out such old testament passages would seem to satisfy this question for you, but this you cannot do, as you have invested so much in the Bible Wheel. I sense that your esoteric entrance into Christianity brought with it oppression, and over the past 6 years some sort of ‘disappointment with God’ at a time of testing hit you harder than it should have, because of this esoteric cloud, that hardly anyone else understands but you.
Hell – this one is easy, with all the splendid lads who over the centuries have carried the torch of universalism – George McDonald, etc. The hard part is holding the tongue around the weaker brothers so as not to appear as a heretic and to be ostracized onto the list for prayer.
Prayer – ‘If I have sin in my heart, the Lord will not hear me’ – not what anyone wants to hear, particularly myself. I would tell you about the answer that stunned me, but you would probably chalk it up to chance. On this matter, i wish you would abandon probability and embrace the fates. You mention Crowley, how about this for the guardian angel:
The Guardian Angel’s Lament (by anonymous)
Thou hast sorrowed the spirit that loved thee,
And watched o’er thy footsteps for years:
Thou hast made me at last sigh o’er thee,
In secret, in silence, and tears.
For my Father in Heaven I loved thee,
For His sake have I guarded thy ways.
Return, O return, I implore thee,
Him to love, to serve, and to praise.
O’er thy pathway through life still I hover.
Thee to comfort, to solace, to cheer;
With the love of a fond, saving brother,
Through this desert of trial and fear.
Oh! When shall I clasp thee—how fondly
And bear thee, all dangers no past,
To the arms of God Who dies for thee
To our home in the heavens at last!
Doesn’t Hebrews 6 terrify you as much as it terrifies me?
I hope you find time to respond. “Be of good cheer”, and, sing it with me, lads:
“…until we build Je – ru – sa – lem…..in England’s green and plea – sant land!”
Richard, did it not occur to you that you convinced yourself that there was only 66 books in the Bible. You know as well as I, that it is Satan’s number not God’s number try 73. By the way there is a purpose for the killing of the young and old, especially when you know the future of this sinful world. Get back to the original church of Christ. Keep your eyes focused on 1 Tishrei, 5773
Yours in Christ
Hi Gerard,
I didn’t “convince myself” that the Bible has only 66 books. I simply received the 66 book canon from history and noticed that the Bible Wheel pattern gave convincing evidence that it was correct, and strong evidence that the apocryphal additions were incorrect. A good example is the apocryphal additions to Esther which directly contradict the message of the canonical part which also is confirmed by the Bible Wheel pattern.
If the number 66 is “Satan’s number” then I guess you are saying that God created the world in 6 days because he is Satan? I do believe your logic could use a little refinement.
And you want me to focus on a date? Christians have always believed the end was nigh – and they’ve always been wrong, for two thousand years! A perfect record of error.
All the best,
Richard
Hi George,
Thanks for the very thoughtful comments. You wrote:
Your solution wouldn’t work at all. If we reject the OT, then the NT falls with it. That’s why Christians rejected Marcion’s solution. It has nothing to do with my supposed “commitment” to the Bible Wheel. I am not committed to it – I’m simply mystified by it because the evidence for it remains even though I cannot believe the Bible is inspired by God.
You presumption that I had “some sort of ‘disappointment with God’ at a time of testing” is entirely false. I rejected the Bible for the reasons stated. It contains contradictions, errors, and moral abominations attributed to God. We cannot just toss out the OT because Jesus and Peter and Paul and Matthew and others all endorsed it and the Gospel is based upon it. Your “solution” makes no sense at all.
Matt Slick allows anything and everything to be discussed on his CARM forum except two things: Satanism and Universalism! That shows how very contrary the idea of Universalism is to traditional Christianity. If Universalism is true, then God has utterly failed to guide his people (in any meaningful way) to understand the central truth of the Bible. On the contrary, he produced a book so faulty as to lead people into doctrines of hell and the need for “personal salvation.” If Universalism is true, then I don’t need to worry about Christianity – it has become irrelevant. It was when I became a Universalist that I finally realized I was no longer Christian.
Anecdotes about answered prayers would never convince me of anything because they can’t be confirmed, and they are contrary to the general FACT that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. Indeed, the whole universe operates in a way contrary to what we would expect if the Christian God were real. Just think about it – if God is real, then why does he do everything in his power to behave as if he doesn’t exist? If I had the power to notify the 200,000 Hatians of the impending earthquake and did nothing, I would be morally culpable for their deaths. There is no “theodicy” for the kind of evils that God allows. The nature of those evils are direct proof that there is no god who fits the description of Biblical theism.
If you’re gonna let Scripture scare you, try Hebrews 10:26 “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” What Christian has not sinned willfully after being saved?
Or if you think the Calvinists got it right (they seem to have the best Biblical arguments) then you have some real terror to consider. According to them, no one can do anything to get saved. No one can even “believe” unless God takes the initiative and regenerates them first. So we are utterly and totally subject to the arbitrary will of God. He chose who would get saved and who would be damned before anyone was born, and no one can do anything about it. The ultimate implication of the Bible is that we should just eat, drink and be merry, because God sealed our eternal fate before we were born. And the fate of the unsaved? ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT! If that’s not insane, nothing is. Such a God would be the Devil – in a most literal sense.
Pretty much everything in the Bible would terrify me if I thought it were true because it would imply that God is an utterly insane and immoral monster. He inflicted three years of famine on Israel without telling them why, and when David finally got around to asking, he was told it was because of a sin of the previous king Saul! How INSANE is that? What intelligent God would punish a whole people with famine because of a sin of a former king … and then not even tell them about it? But it gets worse – God would not lift the famine until seven sons of Saul were murdered and “hung up before the Lord” for months while their bodies decayed. The Bible God is simply insane. It would be the most terrifying thing in the world to believe the true God behaved as described in the Bible.
You have introduced some interesting ideas. I hope you find time to respond!
All the best,
Richard
Hi Tessie,
Those are really good questions. Thanks for taking time to write.
Concerning God: I have become convinced that there is no God of the kind described in the Bible and traditional Christian theism because all evidence is against that concept. I am agnostic about the nature of ultimate reality. I think “consciousness/mind” is probably the “ground of being” but I am not committed to any metaphysical system because I have no real knowledge about such things.
Concerning prayer: Yes, I had a nice collection of “answered prayers” and times I felt I had “heard God’s voice.” But they were notable for their scarcity. The idea that we should “trust God” to answer prayers seems quite absurd to me because no one can actually TRUST that God will help in times of need. Think of disease. If we trust antibiotics we live. If we trust God we die. Nothing could be more obvious.
Concerning the Bible Wheel: As far as I know, the evidence remains that indicates the patterns could not have been consciously designed by any humans. I used to think this proved it was designed by the God it proclaims, but I no longer see this as a possibility. So it is just a mystery to me.
I do think there is a “bigger picture” and the Bible may well be important. I mean, it is the primary book that defined Western civilization for two millennia! That means it’s important, if for no other reason than as a revelation of the human psyche. But there could be authentic spiritual implications (the evidence of the Bible Wheel remains valid) but it won’t be a confirmation of traditional Christianity, that’s for sure!
As for “all is meaningless” – that doesn’t follow from recognizing the Bible as false. People of all cultures and times have found life to be very meaningful without knowing anything about the Bible.
Thanks again for the very interesting questions. I hope you have time for followups.
All the best,
Richard
Thank you for your fast response!
Suppose Marcion was right, or mostly right? And the Christians who rejected him were simply following their leaders, who were, as I read, his economic competitors in shipping? Weren’t the early Christians concentrating on what we now have in the gospels? Didn’t those early guys have the same questions you and I have about the OT, I’ll bet they viewed the OT more as history and literature than as holy writ.
Just because Jesus and the NT references the OT, does that mean they are holy writ? I was approaching where you are now. But I have reconciled the NT quotes of the OT – whenever I read them, I make note that Jesus and the NT writers use the OT quotes more as ammo against their Jewish listeners. I do not think the NT falls with the OT. I wish someone could trace a path through history for me from Marcion to the Cathars, and so on.
I hesitated when I typed ‘your commitment to the bible wheel’. By commitment I refer to your time and efforts, which appear substantial. From what I have read so far, your efforts began following a penetration from another plane.
My reference to ‘disappointment with God’ is a reference to a book by the same name. What you refer to as my false presumption about you, I prefer to view it as a sense, sort of like taking the auguries. Something had to have happened.
You say my solution makes no sense at all; it’s not my personal solution, I find it historical. I find it fits with history of the true church – a persecuted minority, condemned to infamy as heretics, but persevering unto the end, ‘even if it be by fire’.
I have not read everything on your site, but I notice a common theme of rejection of the OT. Yes that stuff is insane. No one can deny that, if they do they are blind. Admit it, you are a budding Marcionite!
I have read that a true Universalist still evangelizes, one reason is to prevent the condemnation of the unbelievers, which will be painful, although not eternal. Jesus was a Universalist – shall bring ‘all things unto myself’. What is your view of ‘weeping and gnashing of teeth’ – are those references to unbelievers or believers who failed?
One of my favorite stories is how in 1550 or so Michael Servetus, as he was about to be murdered by Jean Cauvin (CALVIN!) refused to recite ‘Jesus Christ, the eternal son of God’ but instead, as the flames rose around him, he said, ‘jesus Christ, son of the eternal God’. Servetus believed that the Pneuma penetrated our systems through the lungs, then into the blood, where the Pneuma stays.
The pneuma is impervious to presumptions, adamant statements, sequences, serotonin levels, and disappointment. The guardian angel is not. Let not your heart be troubled.
Hi Gerald,
Jesus claimed that his father was the God of the OT. Jesus said that Moses wrote about him. I don’t see how the NT could stand if we reject the OT. If we clipped out all the references to the OT, the NT would be left in shreds and make no sense at all. Why should we accept such a fragmented document as the “Word of God” in any sense at all? It just doesn’t make sense to me. Why should we believe the “Gospels” if the Gospels are filled with references to a faulty OT? The problems generated by trying to follow Marcion seem insurmountable to me.
Thanks for clarifying that. You are correct that I invested over a decade of my life to that project, and I believed it quite sincerely. But now I am happy to live with the mystery that the evidence remains for the Bible Wheel though I have no explanation for how it came to be.
As for the “penetration from another plane” – that well could be. But I’m not inclined towards exploration of metaphysical systems at this time because there is no solid foundation for such speculations, and I don’t feel like believing things without good evidence.
That’s not the reason it doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t make sense because the NT is totally dependent on the OT, and if we reject the OT then we shred the NT and make it into a meaningless document.
That theme came only after my rejection of Christianity. When I was a Bible believer, I accept the entire Bible as “God’s Word” (though I never once said it was the “inerrant and infallible Word of God.” I knew that was false from the beginning, if for no other reason than textual variations made it impossible).
I totally agree when you say “that stuff is insane. No one can deny that, if they do they are blind.” But I can’t believe in Marcionism for the reasons stated above. And besides, I reject traditional Christian theism that presents God as an agent who goes about doing things like any other bit player in the cosmic drama. I reject theism because there is no evidence for such a god, and much evidence against that concept. For example, any AGENT would be morally responsible if they knew that an earthquake was going to kill 200,000 people in Haiti and failed to notify them. The universe simply shows no evidence whatsoever that there is a god who goes about intervening in human affairs. Thus, I reject both the OT and NT on that ground alone. And I reject the “gospel” which says that personal knowledge of Jesus is necessary for salvation. So what’s left?
That makes sense. It’s what I would have said when I was a Universalist. But if Universalism is true, why push Christianity? People don’t need to be told how to be good. All people that would be good “because of” Christianity would be better if they did good for its own sake! And besides that, Christianity often corrupts the minds and morals of those who try to adhere to it, so wouldn’t it make more sense to just reject it all?
And that shows the evil of religious dogmas. A man burned alive because of which noun be modified with the adjective? Religion is the source of great madness and cruelty. And by one of the leaders of Reformation? And look at Luther and his vile hatred of the Jews. Why anyone would take either Luther or Calvin as religious moral leaders is insane. The tree is corrupt from its very root.
As for Pneuma – that’s nice. But it’s just more speculation.
Great chatting George! Thank you for your very interesting comments.
Richard
I should say I am not 100% marcionite, more like a Thomas Jefferson marcionite, one who would say this part is ok and this is not. That way I always have the upper hand, as the ebb and flow of rejected parts fit the occasion. Not really, don’t know enough about the Septuagint and the history of the records.
About the earthquake model – carry the model one step further, and it is God’s obligation to prevent every death on the planet, all should live forever. N’est ce pas?
These questions are very troubling. I was dumb struck when it was first shoved in my face some years ago, not knowing what to say. I was ashamed.
Just recently I was reading on Lazarus, when Jesus wept. The question is why did he cry? I believe the best answer is he knew Lazarus would rather stay where he was. Or, ‘there are worse things than dying’ with a twist. That Russian Jewish writer Andreyev, his short story on Lazarus, describes how Lazarus lives out his life in regret.
Wouldn’t it be interesting if the physiologic interface between inhaled air and the blood, in the lungs, if one could chart the decline in that interface with the probability of the indwelling of the pneuma?
Hi George,
I have no problem with picking and choosing the “nice parts” of the Bible. But when you do that, you eviscerate the Bible of any authority. It becomes nothing but a reflection of your personal moral intuitions.
Is it God’s obligation to prevent every death on the planet? I don’t know – it’s hard to define what the moral obligations of an omnipotent and omniscient being would be because our moral intuitions are based on our humanity with all it’s weaknesses. And that’s my primary problem with Theism in general – it mixes human attributes like agency with divine attributes like omniscience. It doesn’t make any sense to think of God that way – as some sort of “superman” Zeus style agent who goes about doing things like any other bit player in the cosmic drama. But if I must believe that God is “like” a human in the sense that he loves and cares about us, then it is absurd to think that he would allow so much gratuitous suffering. The only answer that makes any sense to me is that such a god does not exist.
I think Jesus sobbed to show his love for Lazarus. That’s what folks said when they saw it. When I was Christian, I wondered if he cried because he accessed the suffering he would have to endure to overcome death. The idea that Lazarus lived the rest of his life regretting his return doesn’t make any sense to me. If heaven was so great, and he saw it, then should he not be thankful that he could return to help others find their way there? The Russian view seems typical of the depressed Russian pessimism. But don’t get me wrong, Russian authors have written some profound works.
As for the “indwelling pneuma” – has anyone ever measured such a thing? I think not …
Congrats to joining us, Richard!
I too became an atheist after reading the bible. My middle-school knowledge of science and history violently clashed with many biblical passages, and my sensibilities as teenage girl hoping the bible would support me in my times of worry (I was viciously harassed by this group of older boys). Imagine my surprise when I learned the Bible took their side. I could ignore the inaccuracies, as the book was written by humans, but that was too much. I forced myself to be a hardcore Christian, in hopes that I was just mistaken, that everything would resolve itself. It was a few years later when I realized that deluding myself was more painful than accepting that I really disagreed with the Bible and everything in it.
Stay happy!
Thanks for joining the conversation. Your experience sounds a lot like that of my wife Rose. She was a Christian for thirty years, but the only way she could deal with the male bias of the Bible was to dismiss those passages as the opinions of mere men. When she finally found the freedom to really think about the implications of those facts, she quit the religion. It’s a “miracle” (LOL) that it happened to both of us at the same time. She has documented her transformation on her blog God and Butterfly.
I don’t generally refer to myself as an “atheist” because there is too much baggage and confusion around that word. There are two definitions:
1) A person who has no belief in a god. E.g. Christians are atheists with respect to Zeus.
2) A person who asserts that there is no god.
I am an atheist according to definition #1. There is no god that I believe in. But there could be a “god” that I don’t know about so I am agnostic about that. To assert that there is no god of any kind is too absolute to be supported with logic and facts. But on the other hand, it makes perfect sense to assert that there is no god of the theistic style (Allah, Yahweh, Zeus) since the existence of such a god would have implications that contradict observed reality.
And yes, I will stay happy … that’s the fruit of true freedom.
Great chatting!
Regarding measurement of the pneuma – I read once that the weight of a body before and after death was found to drop several grams or something like that. Kevorkian was said to examine the retina of nearly dead patients, something about retinal vessels looking like box cars. The Egyptians painted the Ba (or was it the Ka?) as leaving the body after death. All morbid stuff. I was trying to steer the chat into a ‘hardening of the lungs’ as the equivalent translation so to speak of ‘hardening of the heart’. I saw your pictures out in the mountains, you look like your lungs are healthy, and ready for the pneuma to attack.
Andreyev’s Lazarus does touch on Russian pessimism, but mostly instructs that nothing exists after the grave, denial of the resurrection, eternal life, hope, very sad.
I try to keep my ‘personal moral intuitions’ out of the picture when looking at the old testament and try to find a historical pattern of others who doubt the canon. I don’t doubt the new testament, like the Jesus seminar people do, but I do wish I knew more about the excluded books of the first century. Your writing on this page seems to focus on the old testament problems, which I just keep comparing with Marcion, and what he did. You are right, I guess, about personal intuitions. Hey, I can’t help it, it’s the synapses fault!
Caspar David Friedrich is one of my favorite painters. A Rasputin appearing individual once explained his pictures to me, how the evergreens meant eternal life, or that people looking into the picture rather than out inferred mortality, ships sailing meant the final departure, on and on it went. (OK, you guessed it, I’m trying to appeal to your right brain here.) Every dawn a promise of the resurrection, etc.
That is all.
If there is no reply button on the top right corner, am I to take that personally?
Hi George,
The “reply” button is missing because you and I have responded so many times to the same post. It certainly was not a hidden message to quit posting! LOL. Each time we respond with “reply” it indents the reply. After five responses, you need to scroll up to the last post that shows the “reply” button and click that one. It will then be shown in the right place, but will not be further indented. This is called a “threaded mode” to display comments. It’s the style used on HuffingtonPost.com for example. The alternative is “flat mode” where it shows them in order they were posted with no indentation. The threaded mode makes it easier to follow “sub-discussions” whereas the flat mode is cleaner since it has no indentation. I am debating which is best.
In general, long discussions work better on my forum which uses software with a lot more features (posting pics, videos, etc.). It would be great if you wanted to continue the conversation there. It’s fast and easy to register.
Concerning the measurement of the weight of the soul – the evidence is ambiguous and disputed.
It is probably an error to think that the lungs are literally hardened – the hardening of the heart is figurative language. I know there are folks who have made up the idea that hard-hearted people have literally “hard” hearts, but that’s just another example of the most prominent problem of fundamentalist religion – the taking of things “literally” and the inability to understand figurative language.
Why would you keep your “personal moral intuitions out of the picture” when looking at the OT? Isn’t that the reason you reject it because it violates your “personal moral intuitions”?
I don’t understand what you mean when you say you “don’t doubt the NT.” Marcion rejected most of the NT. And if you reject the OT, then you must reject must of the NT since it refers to it.
All the best,
Richard
About not doubting the NT – as Marcion points out the God of the NT seems completely different than the God of the OT. Is that termed dualism, with the Demiurge? Anyhow, I take it no one knows exactly what he taught, we only have the writings of his opponents. I don’t embrace what Marcion supposedly taught, but the idea that there is a historical precedent for doubts on the OT are intriguing to me, and probably for these reasons I have avoided studying the OT as much as the NT. I should be more exact on this, rather than a ‘Jonah is in, Esther is out’ approach. As for rejecting the NT, It certainly seems that the Greek for aeon has been corrupted. I agree with your comments on eternal hell, it seems satanic. I noted your comments about Jude and the reference to Enoch, have read parts of Enoch, but not what you brought up. I admit that is bothersome, the reference to Enoch. The Melchizidek references I don’t understand, and they reference the apocrypha, is that Enoch also? I can’t think of any other NT controversies, I like the gospel harmonies, the harmony of the resurrection appearances. I adhere to a Thursday crucifixion, to soul sleep, that Mary and Joseph were probably Essenes, and am interested in Lazarus, secret Mark, and archaeology of the SW corner of the temple mount. I admit your comments on Christianity having a perfect record of 2000 years of being wrong, that strikes a sad chord. When I read that, I recognized the feeling I had. I have had that feeling before. I don’t like that sensation.
I still think Servetus was on to something with the pneuma entering the body through the lungs, I want to think that through. I have not found that idea elsewhere.
I am planning on buying your book. I will first work on a write up about pillars that might interest you, and send it with the order.
I notice you always close your comments with pleasant salutations. My wordperfect templates do that for me at work, and I am in the habit of not thinking about that. So,
“Ride, boldly ride (the shade replied)
If you seek for El Dorado!”
Dear Sir,
I do feel for you. The best thing I can offer is did “Jesus” (I call him Yeshua) say alpha to omega or did he use Aleph to Tav. It is the greek vs hebrew filter. I hope this will help. I did my deconversion about 30 years ago. It started with very similar questions, it ended with going back to the “Fathers.” Not the early church fathers but Abraham,Issac and Jacob. Since there is no “j” in hebrew, Im sure you see my point. Go back to the beginning of the book and you will find answers that will point to a more practical elohim. I hope this will help in some way. You didn’t spend all this time for nothing. Thank you for all your hard work.
Robert Devine
Hi Robert,
The only record we have of Christ’s words to John in Revelation are in Greek, and it says “Alpha and Omega.” But this is symbolically equivalent to Aleph Tav so it doesn’t seem very important especially since there is no way for us to know which was actually said.
As for the letter “J” – of course that doesn’t exist in Hebrew, since Hebrew doesn’t use the Latin alphabet. But I don’t see why that is significant at all since the “J” was introduced in the name “Jesus” at a time when it had the Y sound. And besides, it’s just a translation/transliteration, so it doesn’t matter.
I don’t feel like I spent all the time developing my website and writing the Bible Wheel book for “nothing” – but then again, I have no idea at this time what the purpose might be. The evidence for the Bible Wheel remains, the only thing that has changed is my interpretation of that evidence. I can’t believe that the Bible is “true” in an traditional sense and I can’t even believe that Yahweh is the true God (given his bad behavior in the OT).
Thanks for your comments. I look forward to any follow ups.
All the best,
Richard
I am as logical as they come (ask my family), and through logic, the Bible does not make sense. I am sure you are familiar with Pascal’s Wager. This is a good answer for trying to take a matter of faith and make it a matter of logic. The wheel is very logical, but please do not discount the matter of faith. Your prior testimony states, “I am a man saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesian 2:8).” Is this what you have turned your back on, or is it the external evidence of anything else around you that causes you not the “grace through faith” you once claimed? I know about your logical conclusion in prayer, but by my faith I will be in prayer.
Hi Gary,
I don’t make a distinction between faith and reason in the sense that they are “contrary” in any way. For example, I have faith in my wife because it matches my experience. If it contradicted my experience (if she lied to me, for example) I would have reason not to believe her. The same goes for the God of the Bible. There are many statements in the Bible that don’t match reality, so I can’t have faith in those statements.
Now when I was a Christian, I believed that both my feelings and reason bore testimony to the reality of God. When I said that I was “a man saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ” I believed it, but now I see that I was really just parroting the standard Christian dogma. I have no objectively verifiable reason to believe that there even is a God like the one described in the Bible. On the contrary, I have strong reasons to believe that the God of the Bible does not exist.
You say your faith will be in prayer. Why is that? God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. And he never answers the prayers of amputees! Why is that? Why can’t any of the “miracles” that people think are answers to prayers be verified? Have you seen the Benny Hinn $alvation and Healing Carnival? He’s had thousands of people on stage claiming that God healed them of all sorts of ailments. Hank Hanegraaff (The Bible Answer Man) asked him for the three best miraculous healings that could be verified by evidence. Not one of them panned out. Folks would get the same number of answered prayers if they prayed to a milk jug.
Thanks for taking time to comment. Don’t hesitate with any follow ups.
All the best,
Richard
Hallow, I would like to attempt and enlighten you a bit on one simple fact that is both shocking and deeply hidden within human consciousness. That is the true fact of separation of the light of God from humanity. The only possible reality to exist without God is to exist apart from the light of God. In other words, if we as humans create excuses to not believe in the the Word of God(the Bible), we immediately create our own hell. The Bible in the old testament should be used only by its relevant references. To cal ourselves Christians is to adhere only to the New Testament. The Gospel of Jesus. So human brother, you are gravely mistaken to reject Cristianity because of the Bible as a whole. God Bless You.
Hi Steve,
When you refer to the Bible as the Word of God, I am assuming you mean the whole Bible, including the Old Testament. Does that not mean that the things it says about God are true? When it says that God commanded the Israelites to kill every man, women and child, did that happen or not? If so, then we have a problem. The God of the Old Testament gave immoral commands. This means that the God of the OT cannot be the true God. I can’t ignore what it says because Jesus said his father is the God of the OT.
Is there a flaw in my logic? If so, please explain.
Thanks,
Richard
Hi Richard,
I have visited your site a few times in the past, and found it enriched my study of the Word. I’m an artist, and being a visual thinker, your site provided a rich tapestry of connecting strands which gave glory to God and gave me a “mind map” to see the relationships between words and their meanings which deepened my prophetic understanding. Today I was looking up meanings of “ayin” (eye, fountain, etc.), and your site popped up in the results.
I have wrestled with the same issues in Christianity which you shared above. I have not “arrived”, but I do continue to grow in intimacy and relationship with God. And I know He answers prayer. I see miracles and prayers answered every day. I hear from Him daily….well, as long as I choose to keep my ears attuned and my heart open to receive. He speaks through “coincidences”, events which some would say is merely synchronicity. Yet these everyday miracles become the tapestry of my life which was already written before I was born…strands of DNA in my unique story woven and knitted together by Him.
I do not get overly concerned by the hype of some TV and radio ministers. But I do believe in healings, miracles and the supernatural. I have learned to find His Voice and not focus so much on the sheep. Like a child, I try to simple love Him and experience Him however He chooses to manifest. Some may call that childISH or naive, but I honestly do not care.
Yesterday on the way back from a trip, I saw a steering wheel in the pink clouds of the sunset just over the mountains of PA. It was very clear, and I pointed it out to my husband. It had three “spokes” (if that’s the right word), like a sporty style steering wheel. It reminded me of the Trinity. I meditated on this, and also through of Ezekiel’s Wheel within a Wheel. So…is it an accident I visited your site today? Perhaps this was a message for you….a signpost to not give up on your relationship with God b/c you do not understand everything logically or perfectly.
I have long admired the work that went into creating this resource, and I am also pleased that you have kept it for others to study even though there are doubts in your mind concerning your faith. That in itself shows a great maturity and wisdom, and a generous spirit that pleases the LORD. I pray that He becomes the “driving force” in your life once again, and that your eyes would be open to the supernatural in a new and living way.
Many blessings,
Sandra
Why bother? If you have concluded that the Bible is not a valid source for truth then why even maintain this site or keep discussing these things? It doesn’t matter does it? Just live as you see fit and not worry yourself or anyone else with theology from a Christian perspective.
Hi Jesse,
Beliefs matter. People make choices depending upon their beliefs. Those choices affect them and everyone else for good or for ill. We have very good reasons to continue the discussion. The Bible has played a central role in the development of Western civilization as well as the psychology and worldview of countless believers, so there is every reason to continue discussing it. The fact that it is not the inerrant and infallible Word of God does not mean that I should simply take down the site. On the contrary, this site is very valuable as a witness to how beliefs and perspectives change over time. It gives insight into the mind of a believer. And besides that, the evidence for the Bible Wheel remains. I see no reason to remove the information.
All the best,
Richard
I have been a believer for many years, but it is in the last couple of years, that I really became a Beliver, a Jew, at its TRUE, original meaning: worshipper/follower of Hashem, the Most High… I stumbled upon your website sometime last week and it answered SO many questions on things that I KNOW the LORD had been showing me, but I had no source, per say, to ask and get answers from. This morning (Monday, April 16, 2012) as I am having breakfast and listening to Hillsong, I was on your website and I noticed this link. After reading and looking at the date that you posted this, I realized a couple of things…
1) The very reason to why I was looking into the wheel was because I knew that the LORD was speaking to me in reference to someone who had walked away from the faith, literally, 2-3 days (give or take) from when you originally worte this post…
2) My friend walked away from the faith for the same reasons (to name a few) as the ones that you stated, this seems to be a guy issue (just kidding!) =)
To your statements:
A) The doctrine of hell… Like you, it IS something that I put on the back burner because I have my personal thoughts about it. (Other religions in particular, but like I said, that’s a COMPLETELY other topic)
Biblically, hell WAS NEVER created for us. It was created for the enemy and his demons, PERIOD. YES, NOT believing in the LORD and walking in the WORD leaves you vulnerable, completely agreed. But from what I have gathered in the Word and in the Spirit, it is the disbelief of the Spirit that WILL open the flood gates to a personal hell (blasphemy of the Spirit is the unpardonable sin); but again hell was NEVER created for us. The WORD says that each and everyone needs to be saved; we need salvation personally for the presence of G-D, for the intercession of the Son and guidance of the Spirit. BUT at the same time, the WORD says to be saved so that “you AND your household” can be saved, like the Passover in the Torah. The people were instructed to take a lamb for their HOUSE AND if their house was too small, it COULD be SHARED with a neighbor. Since the Torah is the forshadow of the Brit Chadashah, and Passover is a foreshadow Christ the Messiah, what does that say? G-D never intended hell for us, and if G-D is the same today, tomorrow and forevermore, the unchanging One, then He hasn’t changed on what hell is and what the purpose is. In essense, to me, it solidifies that hell was made for the demons and Lucifer. I know that there is still a lot that I have to read on but for the moment that is where I stand.
B) The example that you gave of the people of Canaan and the Isrealites destroying all of them and leaving NONE behind, I believe this to be true. Anytime that we leave ANY fragment of sin in our lives, we are only giving it room to come back later on in our lives and come back stronger, I’m sure that there are areas in your life where you saw this to be true.
I believe that they NEEDED to be destroyed because it was SO clear that the people of Israel would take their customs and traditions and neglect G-D and all that He has done for them (needless to say they did it regardless). Everytime Israel kept the things of the other nations, the consequences were grave. In turn, the Canaanites were a people who despised G-D. Humanly, I do not believe in “ridding” a people because of their beliefs, it just doesn’t seem ok, you know, BUT you and I both know that the thoughts and ways of the LORD are NOT like ours and He knows best. Think of Joseph, yes G-D showed him that he would be elevated BUT He did not show him that all that would happen in order to get there. A tragedy: what happened, his father becoming sad, the jail time, etc, BUT the GREATER picture: the ending, his position, how he was able to help his family, so on and so forth… We may not understand or know why He does what He does, but He does and He ALWAYS keeps our best intentions.
C) Answered Prayers… You and I both know that He does. It may not be HOW, WHAT or WHEN we wanted it, but they are answered. The fact that you may have not gotten EXACTLY what you were asking for, does not mean that it was not answer. No answer IS an answer, not the one that you want, but an answer nonetheless. “Sit still and know that I am G-D.” In the era of i-This and i-That, lightening speed internet, google and such, I believe that we miss out of SO many things. We no longer have time to slow down and just look at the things that the LORD is doing and has done, we’re too busy, even though it is available in so many ways. I believe that He is MORE than just “a still small voice”, He is also in everything and because He created everything, He DOES respond, the question is, did we stop to listen?
(The crazy thing, is that I know that my friend walked away from the faith because they did not receive the answer that they wanted or were looking for. They did not understand how they could want to do something so grand, so great, so impactful for the LORD, yet He would still say no (or not reply for that matter)… But again, His ways are NOT our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts…
I do not know you personally, let alone know anything about you. I don’t and haven’t read any of your blogs and again, I stumbled onto your page, “not by coincidence but by a ‘G-D-incident'” (as my mother would say, lol), but there is something that I know…
You love the LORD MORE than you or any else knows (even today). I know BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, that you do understand that the LORD loves you in such an immense way and it is that love that compells you to love Him with ALL that you are and are not and with all that you have and have not… I believe that although you say and perhaps even “show” that you have walked away from the faith, you ARE His. I believe that salvation CAN NOT be lost, you CAN NOT loose that which you NEVER HAD to begin with, therefore I believe that you are sealed in and with the blood of the Lamb UNTIL the Day of Redemption.
How am I so sure… There is NO way that you can gather, put together and receive revelation of the Word and be so obedient to post it accordingly, (YES, the LORD will use even a donkey, BUT you took it to a different level; you did it with excellence because you serve a G-D of Excellence). I believe that the Ruach Ha-Kodesh lives in you.
I believe that it’s like, doubt blew out the flame but the wicker (you) is in tack but there is STILL a spark (the Spirit), dim but still present. I know that that spark will grow back into a flame, and it WILL BE A FLAME that will NEVER be blown out again, I KNOW THAT FOR A FACT. You are drawn to Him like no other, He is in you and you are of Him, whether you admit it or not. You are His and have been set apart for Him, His stewardship. I know this because YOU TASTED G-D IN A WAY THAT ONLY FEW HAVE… HE ALONE QUENCHES YOUR THIRST, HE ALONE SUSTAINS YOU, HE ALONE FILLS YOU. You can’t expect a Coke to quench the thirst that ONLY WATER HAS quenched and CAN quench.
I know that the LORD will be with you as you move forward “without ‘blinders'”… “For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away…” 1 Corinthians 13:9-10
Blessings,
Geraldine Eusebio
PS – “The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you, And be gracious to you;The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give you peace.”’ – Numbers 6:24 – 26
Hi Richard,
I have really enjoyed your website. I take it for granted you know what you are talking about since I am not a “number” person and the Lord brought me to it and I trust in Him.
I don’t think you have left Christianity. You have left organized religious thought and are thinking for yourself. This is the first step toward God, frankly.
As for the points you brought this is what the Lord has taught me.
1) If you listen to me (the Lord) then I will listen to you. You come to me and I will come to you. Most people do not listen to what the Bible says (they listen to what other people tell them it says). There are only 10 commandments with one Commanding you REST one day. What a pain, right?! (facetious)
Love Me (God) and Love your neighbor as yourself is the summation of it all.
LOVE.
I have had all my prayers answered because I listen to Him. Every one (not right away mind you).
2)Hell- I don’t worry about it. People that rape 5 years olds and cut them into pieces belong someplace don’t you think? No Hell means no righteous judgement.
3)As for God commanding the Israelites to kill whole groups of people including children I understand that numerous high ranking men of the Gestapo applauded themselves as being descended from Amalek right before they were publicly hanged for war crimes. So, Saul allowing the Amalekites to live caused death to thousands and millions of Israelites in the future. God knows the end from the beginning.
If you cannot say to another person that you have been in the actual
Presence of the Lord YH’Hshua then you have not been Born from God.
Christians say they are born again all the time because they have been told that is
how it is, but they do not read and understand for themselves what to expect.
People do not know who they are in God’s eyes and what God sees.
The first Christians were Jews and proselytes who kept the commandments and
believed that the Messiah was YH’Hshua.
So to be honest you cannot leave where you have not been.
When the Lord said He would be IN YOU He meant it.
When Paul said if the Lord does not DWELL in you you are not of His he meant it.
Keep searching if you truly care about Truth.
Cynthia
Hi Cynthia,
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I agree completely that “thinking for yourself” is very important. Indeed, it is what freed me from the shackles of Christianity. It also is the reason I reject the Bible as the Word of God. I’ve received a lot of responses like yours in which folks continue to advocate belief in Jesus and the Bible even as they reject the “organized religion” of Christianity. That doesn’t work for me because we got the Bible from the “organized religion” that you say is false. If I can’t trust the “organized religion” that gave us the Bible why should I trust the Bible it gave us? And besides, the Bible contains many errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God and it is so confused that everyone must make up their own interpretation (or blindly follow another) so it can’t be trusted as a moral guide. It’s more like a Rorshach Test (ink blot) upon which folks project their own ideas. It reveals a lot about the believer, but not so much about God.
Now as for your responses to my numbered points:
I love love. But it’s not enough to save the Bible from all the violence and hate it contains.
What do you mean when you say “listen to God?” When I listen, I hear nothing. How do you distinguish between your own thoughts and the things God is supposedly saying? I’ve asked this question of many believers, and they never can answer. The reality is that folks just let their imagination go wild and they think they are hearing from God. I’ve seen this happen many times. If there is no way for you to discern between God and your own imagination, then how would “listening to God” differ from a delusion?
If you’ve truly had all your prayers answered, then I can only surmise that you didn’t pray for anything that could be objectively verified. Or you’ve never met an amputee that you cared about enough to pray for. The simple fact is that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. Everyone knows this, but few are willing to admit it. You would get the same results if you prayed to a milk jug (see this video).
Don’t worry about it? That’s impossible. I cannot believe in a DEVIL who would keep people alive forever just so he can torture them. That seems utterly insane and entirely wicked to me. Hell is not any kind of “righteous judgment.” On the contrary, it is absolutely unrighteous to created ignorant people as “sinners” and then punish them for being exactly what you made them! The doctrine is insane and unjust and wicked to the core. And besides, the Bible says everyone is a sinner. If God can save some sinners he could save the one that raped and killed a five year old. Where was the “righteous judgment” on all the sinners who were saved? The Christian answer is that God’s “righteous judgement” was poured out on Jesus but that makes no sense at all because there is no “righteousness” in punishing the innocent and letting the guilty go free.
So you think that hatred of the Jews is transferred genetically? If all the Amalekites had been killed by Saul, there would have been no holocaust? Such speculation does not help me understand why God would command genocide. Indeed, ti is the typical kind of excuse that denies God is God because it implies that he could not stop the Nazi Amalekites from committing those crimes, but depended rather on mere humans to do his work for him.
There is justification of the genocide in Bible. And there many other problems too, such as the fact that the Bible presents God as a Bronze age tribal war god.
How would anyone know if they were in the “actual Presence fo the Lord YH’Hshua”? Are you talking about seeing with your physical eyes? Or are you talking about just a feeling you get when you think you are in the presence of the Lord? Is there any way to objectively verify that you were in the presence of the Lord? If not, then how does your belief differ from any other religion?
All the best,
Richard
Congrats on your clear and critical thinking, Richard. Thank you for keeping the site alive. I am not a Christian, though this site has been an invaluable resource in my mystical studies. Though the bible is socio-political propaganda, it does contain certain hidden transcendental truths. Well, so does Moby Dick. If you are still interested in Spiritual Truth, I highly recommend these books at http://www.wisefoolpress.com
Hi Morton,
Thanks for the good words, and thanks for the link. I hadn’t heard of that book series before. I’ll check it out.
And yes, the Bible is an invaluable book because it played a central role in the development of the Western spiritual traditions – both exoteric and esoteric. And familiarity with it is required for any proper analysis of the psychology (and psychopathology) of the Western mind. And finally, all the evidence for the Bible Wheel remains, so there is a deep mystery about how that came to be. It looks curiously like a dream mandala produced by the collective unconscious .
All the best,
Richard
Hey there Morton,
I did a little research on Jed McKenna, the author of the books you suggested. He looks like a fake with a massive ego who goes around proclaiming the he’s enlightened. I found this article which says the books are written under a pseudonym and that Jed McKenna does not even exist:
And here is another quote I found on this page:
Wow … I can’t imagine a more ridiculous assertion. And I read some reviews of his books on Amazon which confirmed my sense that he is just another wanna-be guru who is either deluded or deliberately deceptive.
What do you think about him? Do you have any reason to think he is legit?
I do hope you intend to leave this up, there are many students of qaballah both following a religion and not that find the databases indespensible. I have a copy of Strong’s, but the ability to search by gematria number and obtain results both in the Hebrew and the Greek saves quite a bit of time when researching a specific number.
Don’t worry, I have no plans to remove anything from the site. I think it is very important for folks to see where I was at so they can understand the depth of my former commitment to Christianity and the reasons I quit the faith.
excellent keep it up
it will lead you back where you began but without the lies which are not GOD’s but ours
Will do!
and I have never considered myself a Christian. But I do follow Jesus. Big difference.
Christians follow Paul.
http://www.amazon.com/James-Brother-Jesus-Unlocking-Christianity/dp/014025773X
excellent to read if you have not
If you reject Paul, why do you accept anything in the NT?
and they said he was GOD to cripple them all
and it worked
anyway Blessings on you
and I will visit again
I am interested in only the words of Jesus and the attendant stuff that I can corroborate in the “OT” or in historic sources
well not entirely true I am interested in the Gospels of John and Matthew and the book of revelation and the book of James
most of the rest I have little use for
Geza Vermes
Ok Bye now
Thanks. It looks interesting, but ultimately irrelevant to me personally because it only proves (yet again) that the traditions around Christianity are not well-founded and should be rejected, which I’ve already done.
Why would you trust a Bible that you largely reject to give accurate “words of Jesus”?
And why would you use the OT as any kind of standard? It’s filled with mythology, errors, contradictions, and worse – moral abominations attributed to God.
this is long conversation I want to have it with you but I can not right now
stop by my place soon remind me please
Christianity has shit to do with Jesus. Can I say shit here?
anyway I have said the same and worse, I want to speak to you more – I can’t now, please, come back to me someday soon at my place remind me
thanks
blessings on you keep it up always question but never turn your back to GOD because he is there and you have something in your hand that is true and he put it there guard it do not be angry he has not forgotten you
ok bye
It would be best to have the conversation on my forum since the software is better for long conversations.
yes we do not have to have conversation at my place
what I mean is that the nature of my life at this moment makes me think I may forget to come back here
come by when the mood hits you and remind me to come back here
thanks
Yeah, you can say shit here. Folks need to get over their prissy attitude about words.
It sounds like you are inventing your own religion from bits and pieces of Christianity. How is that different than making a sculpture from dog shit? It doesn’t matter how nice the sculpture is – it’s still made of shit.
Well, it’s probably best if you leave yourself a note and remind yourself to come back. I’ll almost certainly forget since I get lots of messages.
you assume much with little
and i invent nothing
especially out of Christianity
I simply do not belong to any of the isms
and I was born a Jew
anyway i will try to remember to come back
and you try to remember as well that arrogance precludes insight
stay open
it is not GOD’s fault or Jesus’ that they got it all wrong
you have your hands on something right
stay with it
go through it
but keep GOD in your heart
because you are in his
sometimes smart is an impediment
see you soon iHope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXEtR6B-6kA
There was nothing arrogant about my comments. You need to remember that admonitions against arrogance tend to reflect back on the speaker. I simply said what I think, just like you do. I encourage free speech.
Your assumption that I assume too much assumes too much. I was simply responding to your comments that indicated you believe some of the books of the Bible but not all. You said you “follow Jesus” and that “Christianity has shit to do with Jesus” when the truth is that you wouldn’t know shit about Jesus if it weren’t for Christianity. So it seems pretty evident that you are doing something like making up your own religion. I’ve seen this a million times. Most people who comment this blog say things like that. They congratulate me for quitting Christianity and then proceed to tell me to follow their version of “Jesus.”
I can’t agree with your assertion that “it is not GOD’s fault or Jesus’ that they got it all wrong” – on the contrary, if God had anything to do with the production of the Bible, then it most certainly is his fault.
I couldn’t watch the video you linked. It is blocked in the US.
I look forward to chatting more when you have time.
All the best.
I want to address your three issues above. Before you are too hasty, let me give you a look into what the Holy Spirit has laid on my heart.
1. 1) The Doctrine of Hell is an interpretation of symbol based on the consuming fire of God. There are four baptisms. Earth, Air, Water and Fire. The final baptism is Spirit. Baptism is our immersion into the water of reality. When Jesus said, “You must be born again, he was referring to our transmigration to raise again into new life. The denial of this risen life is told in Matthew 24 by John the Baptist. Notice who Jesus and John condemn. The “Experts” in the law. They will be denied the water, which cleanses the temple, and instead, they will be baptized by fire. I can confirm this if you just read 1 Kings 17 when Elijah shows us what the symbol of water and baptism means. You will not be able to follow this fully until you read my blog post on the subject. Search for Superiored Blogspot.
2. There is a reason for the surface of the document to be waves on a tossed ocean. The truth is in the symbol. This can only emerge from the depths. Symbol is where the true Word is locked. Once you define the symbols, what you have provided on the Wheel then allows the symbol to emerge. Please to not be hasty. Email me or even call me. I can show you where you are going wrong. The Bible is Hermetically sealed. This is Hillel’s Seven Rules and the process of locking truth in symbolic meaning. The only way it can be preserved from the other side of truth is for it to be under the spiritual umbrella of the Holy Spirit.
3. The voice of God is locked in the Word / Wave of the Son. Light is a duality of particle and wave according to Science. This is a denial of the third element of spirit (Consciousness). Find the Trinity in the quantum world. There is no voice that is audible with the Wave of Genesis. Light is Particle, Wave (Word) and Holy Spirit (Information / Consciousness). We are INSIDE the Image. Check Genesis 1:27. The image is created by the Wave (Son / WORD).
Genesis 1:1
In the Beginning (Time), God created the heavens (Space) and the earth (Matter). Let there be light (Energy).
Email me brother. You are not lost. Your prayer is answered by the one who finds the lost sheep and brings them back.
One more thing.
666 is Carbon. 6 protons, 6 neutrons, 6 electrons.
777 is Nitrogen
888 is Oxygen
You already know the numbers by name. What is the breath of God? What is the mark of mankind? What is the fruit of knowledge? TECHNOLOGY! What is Satan doing?
999 is Flourine
Flourine enriches uranium. It is in our drinking water and toothpaste as an agent to harden Calcium and the Pineal Gland. Add it to Carbon and get fluorocarbon? Your website is the key to knowing why this is important. Don’t give it up at the edge of truth. Do you realize why you are being tested in the fire right now. Fire refines.
Email me.
Dear Mr. McGough,
“Hath not the potter power over the clay,
of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?”
– Romans 9:21
The reason you once believed in Christianity was because you understood that
God gave his son as payment for our sins.
But that’s a simple concept in a complicated world, and can be ultimately unsatisfying to us, if we continually question our own worth, and the worth of others.
Does the Bible really contradict itself? I have faith that it doesn’t.
I became a Christian in 1979, while I was in college. I remember taking a keypunch course that required us to compile about 50 or so cards just to get the desired printout; if even one character was wrong, the program wouldn’t run correctly!
Similarly, if we can’t justify something in the Bible, it can seem like an apparent contradiction; but, I believe, it’s infinitely more likely that we have overlooked something.
You and I were made into vessels of honor… and, as undeserving as I am, I don’t question the “potters” wisdom in so blessing me. I praise the God of all creation, and am humbled to tears, that He notices me … a speck in a sea of 7 billion people.
God created YOU_to_be_with_HIM — try to comprehend all that that means!
What profiteth a man to gain the world, yet lose his soul?
Let God BE God
Let us be humbled!
– Bill
Hi Bill,
Thanks for taking time to write. I recall in my college days (early 80s) using punch-cards to program computers, and yes, an error in a single character would crash the program. I find it ironic that you would use that as an analogy for the Bible since we know, with perfect certainty, that there are many errors. How do we know this? Simple – we don’t even know what the original documents said, and ALL COPIES differ from each other. Therefore, we cannot have any certainty about what the Bible even says, let alone that it is perfect.
I think you have misplaced your faith. The Bible no where says that you should believe it has no contradictions. That’s a logically incoherent man-made doctrine. The Bible doesn’t even define itself, left alone as “inerrant and infallible.” And it is an absurd proposition since there are many errors and contradictions in the Bible. It doesn’t matter if you can “explain” them as scribal errors or whatnot. They are errors none the less. And besides, which Bible are you talking about? Do you reject the Catholic and Greek Orthodox Bibles that have the Apocrypha? If not, why not? But no matter what Bible you accept, you had to make a choice to think it was perfect. Why would you do that without any evidence?
Thanks again for taking time to comment.
Richard
Hello Richard,
I have your book and have visited your website a number of times. The information is great. I had come to some of the same conclusions, but there are things that you took much further than I did. Great stuff.
I was raised a southern Baptist and use to call myself a “christian.” Sometime back in the late 90’s, I started studying the Bible from a more Hebraic perspective. I identify with the way you think. We don’t get to the truth without asking honest questions and then being as honest and objective as possible in viewing whatever evidence that we find. I’ve never been too much on labels. Now, I normally refer to myself as a “truth seeker.”
Me and another guy do a weekly internet radio program. I think that you may enjoy some of our shows. We did a series of shows a while back on the subject of “hell.” The first one is called “Hell: A new Paradigm.” We also did some shows around that time that began with one called “Forever: How long is that?” If you get a chance, give them a listen. Christianity has had a habit of changing the meaning of words from the way that they were understood in the 1st Century. You can listen to many of our full radio programs as well as various teachings here:
http://www.yeshuacast.com/paradigm-radio.html
Here, you can listen to the archives of all of our radio programs: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/paradigm
Thanks again for all of your research. Sometime, I would really enjoy visiting with you about certain concepts.
Thanks,
Keith
If you eat from the tree of good and evil, you shall surely die. I believe God sent His Son so that the world would know His love and that He made a way so they wouldn’t have to die for their sin.
Canaan, God says, that is their exceedingly great sin that is why he took the land from them, this is a picture of the flesh for us, we must die to it, completely. God as creator of the world is able to wipe out who He will the punishment for sin is death, whether its today or tomorrow it comes, but we also know that God desires none to die being exceedingly good and merciful waiting for us to repent.
Jesus told the Pharisees you believe you have eternal life because you search the Scriptures and they testify of Me. Look for Jesus in the Scriptures, not what you must DO. Israel tried to DO what God said was necessary and failed miserably, remember it is the tree of Good and Evil. Knowing each choice causes us to be accountable for it.
But if you are a believe you have died to it. You have gone through this for a reason, but remember the wisdom of the world is foolishness with God. I pray for Him to open your eyes so that you may continue to fulfill what He is calling you to do. Watch out for bitterness.
Thanks for the very interesting website. Especially the 42nd chapter of Isaiah matching with the 66 books in the Bible. That’s how I found you.
Be blessed in Christ,
C.
Hi Keith,
Thanks for the good words, and the link to podcast. I do a lot of long distance bike riding and enjoy listening while I ride.
It sounds like you recognize that the philosophical concept of “eternity” is not well-represented in the Bible. The words relate more to the idea of an aion, not an endless eternity. Understanding this is very important for any discussion of hell. But it doesn’t really matter to me because I already knew that when I was a Christian. I explored annihilationism and then began to think that Christian Universalism gave more glory to God and was a better fit to the idea of the reconciliation of the whole word, Christ the savior of all people, and so forth. But then I found out that this put me very far outside the “pale of orthodoxy.” Indeed, some Christians think it is a terrible heresy. Matt Slick, who runs CARM, will allow anything to be discussed except Satanism and Universalism. That’s how far out of touch I am with “traditional” Christianity.
But hell is not the root of the problem. It was just one symptom. The root is the idea of theism as taught in the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam). I simply do not believe in that kind of God. This is tied to my conclusion that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers, and so cannot be TRUSTED in the way that the Bible and Christianity teach.
I’ll write more after listening to your podcast.
All the best,
Richard
Hi Richard,
Just a thank-you for the Gematria section of the website – it is a very useful resource — one that I use semi-regularly. Fingers crossed from this side of the Pacific that you are able to stick with your intention to keep it all on air despite your ‘de-conversion’.
Re your de-conversion:
Unanswered prayer (something I think I can claim expert status on) is both an absolute bummer, and a very complex issue.
For fully paid-up, bible thumping, born-again Christians, especially new converts, unanswered prayer is an even more complex issue — because their prayers place God in a real bind viz. 1) answer the prayer and encourage further stupidity and almost wilful disobedience, or 2) ignore the prayer and the often desperate need, and hang the person praying out to dry.
Christians especially “thems wot” see themselves as “saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ” and “non-denominational blood-bought Bible-believing Trinitarian Christians” generally have plenty of knowledge about salvation through the blood of the Lamb, and about receiving things by faithm positive confession etc — but their ignorance about the rest of the Bible is almost mind-numbing.
If God answers their prayers, their “infallibility complex” grows even stronger, and they rush out to recruit even more converts to their stupidity and ignorance.
Their instructions were very clear – “MAKE DISCIPLES” – ie disciplined students of God’s word — but they will not do it — they want to make CONVERTS instead. Ask them to study the Bible in depth, and to use their brains, and the excuses start immediately:
“Oh, I am just a simple soul saved by grace. . . I just want to trust in the Lord ..” — they will do anything to avoid having to think.
Abraham studied for decades, Jacob was hidden in Shem’s school for 14 years, Paul, even with all his rabbinic training, went off to Saudi Arabia for another 14 years — but not our modern lot – one day they are taking drugs, and 6 weeks later they have seen the light, been born again at the local happy clappy fundamentalist circus, and then they are out on the street “witnessing” as an expert of the Bible.
If they had done the sort of study they should have, then the “contradictions” in tey Bible would be seen for what they really are — signposts to some of the best nuggets of information in the Bible.
Similarly, they would understand that some of the “moral abominations” attributed to God were not acts where God chose evil over good, but acts where God chose teh lesser of two evils eg
God ordered Saul to murder a whole race of people down in the Sinai – no doubt about it, clear as day, the order was straight-out genocide. Saul took to heart the good old Australian adage “Near enough is good enough”, and went home having wiped out around 99% of the intended victims. God, and Samuel spat the proverbial dummy at him for not being the sort of genocidal maniac that Himmler would have wanted to emulate.
So in the eyes of the non-believers, and the happy-clappy wonders who suddenly get doubts, or start to think about the crap they are hearing from the pulpit, God must be a homicidal maniac. But a little extra knowledge changes the picture — Himmler was an apt name to mention — if Saul had done what he was told, there would have been no Hitler, no SS, no World War I, no World War II, no holocaust, no 100 million deaths in those two wars — and no large crowds listening to a gifted orator while they hold their arms in the air — yes, 1930’s Nazi rallies, and 21st century mega-churches — all mind programmed by the same agenda — and that agenda is world domination and control of people’s thinking and NOT their spiritual development.
And yeah, some of those Bible genealogies are contradictory, often on the same page — because the Bible is talking about incest, but was too subtle to mention it – so the same name comes up indifferent positions in the family tree. God expects the reader to have enough brains to figure it out. But no, most Christians WILL NOT use their brains when they read the Bible, and they WILL NOT listen to the people who had the book for thousands of years before them.
The crucifixion / Passover week stories are riddled with contradictions – times / hours especially .
“Ooh – see you can’t trust it! It is just different and conflicting eyewitness accounts”. Yes, that is what you think when you learn your bible from someone who graduated from the “Dirk Suave School of Marketing”, but then decided to found an evangelical mega-church while he gets his MBA. Converts = Bums on seats = $ etc
Those conflicting times are pointers to some of the deepest secrets and treasures in the Bible, the sort of pearls that Jesus did not want cast before the proverbial swine. So the swine dutifully trample all over them – and the poor ignorant spiritually malnourished Churchians do not know enough to refute the swine.
The true “faith which was once delivered unto the saints” has been something that has been deliberately hidden, especially over the past 500 years — especially by one of those groups that God was so keen to be rid of way back in the OT — they are still around, and have inflicted horrendous pain and suffering on the world — if God had gotten his way and seen them exterminated as ordered back in the OT days, they would not be still running loose molesting children all over the planet — God made a choice when he ordered the extermination of the Canaanites – viz. killing off a couple of million of that bunch of paedophiles c 1300BC was a better deal than having them molest a billion children in the future, and create empires that would cause billions of deaths.
I could add much more, but that is probably plenty for what was intended to be a brief comment tacked onto a thank you for the gematria database,
Regards,
Peter
Peter,
Thanks for the fascinating post. It will take me a little while to digest it.
Richard
Hi Richard;
I am an attorney and as such have learned through the years that the same event can be viewed from different perspectives. I interpret the verse that says “all scripture is inspired by God” is qualified by the next phrase which states ” and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, instruction in righteousness, etc.” In other words, not all scripture is inspired by God. The only scripture which is inspired by God is the scripture which is profitable for doctrine, etc.
There are replete passages in the Psalms where the psalmist is wishing the worst evil on his enemies. I don’t believe those passages were inspired by God. I believe they were inspired by the psalmist’s pain. The reason I believe they are in the canon is because they show that God is willing to listen to any expression of paid we wish to express and is not bothered by it.
As to the resurrection contradictions, I also do not have a problem. I have heard the various testimonies of various witnesses concerning an accident for instance and they are never exactly the same. I witnessed an accident myself where a man was killed. I remember seeing the driver who caused the accident try to break before the accident happened. The other witnesses did not see this, but the accident did happen and the person who was the victim of the accident did die. I saw them put the white sheet over his head at the scene of the accident. The question to me is not whether the hearsay testimony which is recorded in scripture exactly jives with each other. The question is whether Jesus Christ actually rose from the grave or not. I think He did and that is why I believe He is the Messiah and God in the flesh. That is why I believe I will also rise from the dead someday and receive a spiritual body like His.
As to hell, I am an evangelical universalist. I believe the Bible is accurate ( not necessarily inerrant) and God speaks through it. A close study of the Bible and the Greek words reveals the word “aionios” translated as “eternal” does not mean perpetual but rather age-specific relating to the age that God resides in. After studying the idea of hell for quite some time I have come to the conclusion that hell is an age specific place for age specific judgment. It is a baptism of fire meant to cleanse the human soul and bring everyone who has not already believed in Christ for salvation to belief in Him. I believe Jesus is the Savior of all men and someday all mankind (past, present and future) will agree with Him that He is Lord and bow down to Him. The path that they end up taking to get to that point may be different for each person, but the conclusion will be the same. Therefore, I do not have a problem with the God of the OT annihilating a people group because that same people group will be saved someday and will be praising Jesus in front of the same throne along with me. Since every human is a creation of God, why does God have to be fair? I didn’t elect Him to be God. He is God whether I like it or not. In fact, I think He makes it plain in scripture that He is not fair. He chooses some persons to be vessels of honor and some vessels of dishonor. He does not owe us an explanation, since we wouldn’t even be around to complain if He had not created us in the first place. What gives me comfort is the fact that someday he will reconcile all to Himself and will abolish death even the second death which is the lake of fire. I know my views do not coincide with mainstream Christianity, but I wouldn’t have them if I had not studied the Bible with an open mind and not the theological filter I was raised with.
I am open to your thoughts on the subject.
Thanks
Jon
Hi again Jon,
Thanks for the very interesting comments. It sounds like we would have had a lot in common when I was a Christian. I too called myself an “Evangelic Universalist” just before I deconverted. That position has a lot of Biblical support, (your analysis of aionios is spot on) but it is unfortunately so contrary to the mainstream of traditional Christianity that it pretty much put me outside the “pale of orthodoxy.” Many Christians think it is an outright heresy. So finding a “solution” didn’t really matter – it felt more like I was making up my own religion, especially since there were so many other points where I differed from traditional Christians. I now have come to believe that there is no single religion called “Christianity” but really a diverse set of “Christianities.” This is another reason I reject the whole thing – it seems obvious that this confusion is not from God. I concluded it would be irrational for God to use my opinion about the Christianity or the Bible as any kind of standard for anything, especially “salvation.”
Another point we have in common is that I never thought of the Bible as the “inerrant and infallible Word of God.” I knew this was impossible because the textual variations in the manuscripts make it impossible for us to even know with certainty what the original text actually said, let alone the problem with all the errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God. But the Bible Wheel gave strong evidence that the Bible as a whole was in some sense “God’s Book.” That’s pretty much where I left it. I was fine with the problems because I felt they were trumped by the evidence for the overall design. Unfortunately, you solution – to pick and choose which parts were “inspired” and which were the product of mere humans – reduces the Bible to little more than a mirror that reflects your own morality. Why not just toss it all and go with your own intuitions? What is it about the Bible that makes you think it is a revelation from God?
I don’t find your solution to the contradictions in the resurrection account compelling. The differences are much more than mere variations in perspective can explain. A careful analysis of Scripture shows layers of contradictory traditions and textual sources. If God is removed as the author of large swaths of Scripture, why should I believe the stories of the resurrection? Stories of miracles were as common as dirt back then. They give me reason to reject, rather than accept, the accounts in the Bible.
If Jesus is truly the savior of all men, then great! We’ve got nothing to worry about. Since God has not given us a Bible that tells the truth with sufficient clarity for rational men to believe, I am quite confident that he would not expect me to believe if he is rational.
I am disturbed by your comment that you “do not have a problem” with the genocide commanded by God. If your argument were correct, then there are no moral standards of any kind. I could kill anyone I want, knowing that they will be resurrected, so no harm, no foul. If any action of God is defined as “good” then we have destroyed the meaning of that word.
Yes, God is God. But that does not mean that he is the God described in the Bible. Why would you begin with that assumption?
And I agree that God does not “owe us an explanation” – but why then did he give us the Bible which purports to explain so much?
I can see why you would be comforted by your interpretations. But for me, I have found much more comfort in rejecting the whole mess of confusion and opening my mind to consider everything in light of reason and intuition. I feel like I’ve been “unshackled” from the chains of dogmatic religion. I can’t imagine ever going back to such bondage, especially since I now see that there is no universal understanding of Christianity or the Bible. So now I’m just a free thinker, and loving it!
Thanks again for taking the time to write.
Richard
I am no bible theologian, but I found your Bible Wheel fascinating. I was just reading Ezekiel and came back to your website to check something on the wheel and was quite dismayed that you no longer believe in God? the Word of God? Not quite sure if you’ve abandoned the faith or continue to search for the TRUTH in God’s Word.
I do know personally that God answer prayers. And, I know that hell is real. Call it an experiential revelation or whatever you want to but God does still talk to His people and He will reveal the TRUTH to you just as He has revealed it to me. God is a God of righteousness and justice so it makes perfectly good sense to me that He is able to judge that which He created. It will take more than the mispredictions of man regarding Christ’s return to make me give up the Word that became flesh. I pray that God will again reveal Himself to you in a personal way so that your doubts will be put to rest.
I have enjoyed visiting your site for many years. It has really helped me find new layers of meaning that have enriched my study and understanding of the Bible.
I would like to comment on your announcement that you have quit Christianity.
I think much as you have discovered the wheel within the Bible, so much of our universe has patterns, especially circular paths. I have felt at times in my spiritual development I have often found myself “in the dark”…and yet, eventually I come around to finding “the light” once again. Just as night passes into day, or season into season. And often, when it seems we are the farthest away from understanding or accepting God or Christianity, there is something happening beneath the surface we are not able to see…like seeds waiting to germinate.
I grew up Protestant, in a family that went to church every Sunday. I believed in God. But, I was imitating what I had been taught, my heart had not yet truly been converted. I went through a time of rejecting Christianity, because of the behavior of “Christians”. I sought truth elsewhere. But I believe the Holy Spirit was still ministering to me…for my spirit was still seeking….seeking truth, seeking peace….and in my studies I picked up some books by a Buddhist author, Thich Nhat Hanh, one of which was “Living Buddha, Living Christ.” That book helped me realize that everything I was looking for was already there in the Bible I grew up learning. I just needed to read it again, with fresh eyes and a new spirit.
I came back to being able to identify myself as Christian. Just because there are a lot of “Christians” that really don’t seem to understand Christ, does not mean Christ was wrong. It only means we are humans, we are sinners, and most of us have not met our full spiritual potential yet. In that light, I think the whole Bible can be viewed in the light of man’s awakening spiritual consciousness and awareness of God. We see through the Bible a change from the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament. I would think, it is that are inter-relationship has grown and changed. Has God changed? Has God possibly evolved? Or, could it be that it is our collective spiritual consciousness changing? And, obviously, collectively we still have a long ways to go….
Nothing wrong with being a free-thinker! I ended up converting to a historic Peace church with anabaptist and radical pietist heritage. It is a wonderful fit for me as they have no creed, and believe strongly there should be no force in religion. Baptism is for adults and ideally the external ritual should be the outward expression of the inward conversion of the soul.
I may be wrong, but I would guess that with all you have put into this website and your book, that you probably have exhausted yourself. You probably are very much in need of a “spiritual sabbatical”. I hope in your time of detachment, that your spirit will be renewed.
In time, all things will make sense, and we will see God’s purpose was at work all along even if we couldn’t see it at the time.
Peace and blessings….and many thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.
Deborah
Hi Deborah,
Thanks for the thoughtful comments. I own some books by Thich Nhat Hanh. I think Buddhism has a lot of insight to offer. Have you read Autobiography of a Yogi? He believed that Christianity (properly understood) was fully compatible with Hinduism. His book read like a Christian devotional, largely because he was trying to reach Christians, I suspect. But in any case, I have a lot of appreciation for the universal aspect found in all religions. I tend towards the Perennial Philosophy as explained by Aldous Huxley. But I’m not committed to any particular path because I have no certain knowledge about metaphysical things.
All the best,
Richard
i chanced upon the Bible Wheel and found it very interesting (though I didnt read all you wrote or understood everything).. wow you must be some intelligent person! And when I read you quit Christianity – I feel sad for you.
I believe you must have spent alot of time studying the Bible to discover the wheel but I think you forgot one very important thing – you forgot to look for Jesus in the Bible and study Him.
May I suggest you study the Bible again – but this time to look for your saviour, Jesus. He is on every book, every chapter, every verse. He is Beautiful!
New Testament is in the Old Testment concealed. The Old testament is in the new testament revealed. One cannot understand the OT without the NT and vice versa – together they make one book. And Jesus is on every book.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bqorbcBasU&feature=relmfu
God bless you, Joyce
Hello, For most of my life I claimed to be a man’s whose faith was in God. But about 14 years ago I discovered that my faith was in what I believed about God and what I believed was true, as opposed to really having faith in God. Therein my faith was in the Bible and my understanding of it, as opposed to having faith in the one who gave us the Bible. The Bible being a tool, and depending on whose hands that tool has gone through…
So, 14 years ago I told God I can’t keep going and that He was gong to have to step in, and I started to question all my beliefs with the idea of simply wanting to be in God’s will. And after that I went from living the life of a hypocrite, fighting an ongoing and losing battle with sin, to being a man who actually started to experience the Fruit of the Spirit growing in his life on an ongoing basis. Yes, I still fall on occasion, and sometime take a real tumble, but that is a whole lot different than when I was wallowing in those things which were not of the spirit. Again, I thought I believed in and had my faith in God and as such it appeared that God was not acting true to my understanding, therein I could dismiss God as not being true, could think that I was still not being good enough, but in reality it really was a misplaced faith. The result of which meant that I lacked what I told others they would find if they would surrender their life to Christ. Problem was, as I said before I believed in Christ, but I was actually trusting in and having faith in my own understanding and in my ability to understand, including what I understood about the bible, as opposed to really having faith in and listening to God.
Sound strange but I now have less confidence in my own beliefs then I have ever had in my life, but I am equally more secure in my relationship with God.
The Bible I have found is a great tool which God uses to reveal things to me, provided I do not make it into my God, or make it into something it is not.
Best with your journey, Curtis
Dear Richard,
There is no one single religious person in the world. What we have here on earth, there are institutions in the name of religion. To motivate my assertion. I have been doing individual research on comparative religion and anthropology for about 14 years. The concepts created and uncreated, are the two faces of the same coin. This is knowledge revealed in the process of enlightenment. To be short. What could be understood from this knowledge is that life is uncreated. However, the process of creation refers to what we see in the manifest world, which is transient. And yet to maintain this spring of life in the “open” one needs to know all that is in the universe and have the power to structure it in such a way that could be in accordance with the immutable laws. In this context it means that the one who creates could either transced the laws or it makes them dependent on his power. The other problem is that in the process of enlightenment is revealed only information concerning human beings. Nothing else.
Hello Richard. I stumbled onto your Biblewheel site two days ago. I am fascinated to the core of my being, about the perfection that is found in everything that GOD does – specifically His Word as given by the Holy Spirit.
Surprisingly though, that was overshadowed by my bewilderment in your self confessed “deconversion.”
After statistically determining the probability of such a mind blowing revelation of GOD about the Scriptures (which you yourself said that GOD showed you) to close enough to being impossible (unless it was divinely inspired), “I THEREFORE HAVE ANSWERED THE QUESTIONS IN THE SIDE BOX TO REVEAL THE ABSOLUTE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY THAT THIS STRUCTURE COULD HAVE OCCURRED BY CHANCE OR EVEN DELIBERATE HUMAN EFFORT.”
I fail to understand how you can suddenly deny it all.
As far as I can determine, nobody has been able to disprove any of the Biblewheel formulas or even present a convincing argument against its validity since you first presented it. Your own quoted words state; “IT WOULD BE MUCH SIMPLER IF THE SKEPTIC WOULD MERELY ASK GOD TO OPEN HIS EYES – LIKE THE BLIND MEN ENLIGHTENED BY CHRIST TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO.” And yet you have willingly chosen to close your own eyes to the very facts that you have shown us all!!!!
Even from a non-Christian perspective, this defies all logical (and illogical) train of thought.
Please understand that I am not judging you in any way – just pointing out the oddity in your choice from my own outside perspective. You give testimony to the absolute power of the Word of GOD; “THE LIGHT I SAW IN THE BIBLE. ANYONE WHO HAS ENTERED IN TO THE BIBLE WITH BELIEVING EYES KNOWS HOW IT CAN CAPTURE THE SOUL. IT FEELS ALIVE. IT TOUCHES CHORDS THAT RESONATE DOWN INTO THE DEEPEST PARTS OF OURSELVES. IT SEEMS TO BE FILLED WITH LIGHT EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK: THE GOSPEL MESSAGE SHINES WITH ITS NUMINOUS SYMBOLIC ELEMENTS LIKE THE ALPHA OMEGA, THE CROSS, THE DOVE, THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF CHRIST, AND ON AND ON IT GOES. WHO WOULDN’T WANT TO BELIEVE SUCH A STORY? INDEED, THE BELIEVER WONDERS HOW ANYONE COULD RESIST SUCH AN AMAZING GOSPEL MESSAGE. AND BEYOND ALL THAT, I HAD THE OVERWHELMING WITNESS OF THE BIBLE WHEEL WHICH SEEMED TO CONFIRM EVERYTHING ABOUT THE BIBLE AS THE VERY WORD OF GOD.”
Then you list your reasons for ignoring and rejecting the absolute power of the Word of GOD. My heart sinks deeply. Somehow you have decided that you are sovereign and that you should judge GOD – not allow GOD to be sovereign and accept that He will judge you (and me). You have completely “Humanized” GOD and are rating Him on equal footing with His fallen creation. You have exchanged the truth for the lie.
ROMANS 1:21-23, “BECAUSE THAT, WHEN THEY KNEW GOD, THEY GLORIFIED HIM NOT AS GOD, NEITHER WERE THANKFUL; BUT BECAME VAIN IN THEIR IMAGINATIONS, AND THEIR FOOLISH HEART WAS DARKENED. PROFESSING THEMSELVES TO BE WISE, THEY BECAME FOOLS, AND CHANGED THE GLORY OF THE UNCORRUPTIBLE GOD INTO AN IMAGE MADE LIKE TO CORRUPTIBLE MAN…”
COLOSSIANS 2:8 SEE TO IT THAT NO ONE TAKES YOU CAPTIVE THROUGH HOLLOW AND DECEPTIVE PHILOSOPHY, WHICH DEPENDS ON HUMAN TRADITION AND THE BASIC PRINCIPLES OF THIS WORLD RATHER THAN ON CHRIST.
HEBREWS 13:9 DO NOT BE CARRIED AWAY BY ALL KINDS OF STRANGE TEACHINGS.
Richard, GOD never promised His people an easy life. In fact the scriptures emphatically state that we will suffer along with Christ. We can expect trial and tribulation our entire life – even when we are born again. GOD does promise that in Heaven our life will be a reward. But as with every reward – it takes time and effort and endurance to reach it. Jesus then promises that HE will be with us forever to help us through the trials and to make it to the finish line.
I turned my back on Jesus for the last 11 years. I didn’t stop believing in HIS existence – I did worse – I simply ignored HIM. I can honestly say that the whole 11 years that I tried to walk away from HIM, He pursued me feverently. HE spoke to me directly in my thoughts, through people in my life, and through circumstances that I went through. My life spiralled deeper and deeper into darkness – almost to destruction. But GOD called me back early last year. I needed HIM and HE answered. HE answered my prayers. I will never again stumble and fall away from Jesus. I have an inner joy that is so deep and strong that words can’t express it.
I guess my point is Richard that GOD is there wether you choose to believe that HE is or not. You know HIM, as your own testimonies confer. You know that in the end you shall stand before HIM and give account of your choices, and your words. Wouldn’t you rather hear, “WELL DONE MY GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANT,” or “I DON’T KNOW YOU OR WHERE YOU COME FROM. AWAY FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS!”
May I respectfully suggest to you Richard, “It would be much simpler if THE SKEPTIC WOULD MERELY ASK GOD TO OPEN HIS EYES – like the blind men enlightened by Christ two thousand years ago. This has nothing to do with blind faith – on the contrary, it is the unbeliever who suffers blindness! The evidence is shining like the noontime sun in a cloudless sky!”
Hey there Marco,
I really appreciate your comments. Very few people, out of the hundreds who have taken time to comment, even mention anything about my work when they try to convince me to return to some form of Christianity. Many begin by agreeing that “Christianity” is false and corrupt, but then tell me that I should follow their own idiosyncratic variation of the religion. The one thing this has proven to me is that there is no such thing as “Christianity” but rather a large body of conflicting “Christianities” as diverse as each believer. Now you wrote:
Well, it wasn’t “sudden” in any way at all. The questions began some years ago. And just as I was honest about the wonders I saw in the Bible, so I am compelled to be honest about the problems with it. And the truth is I haven’t denied it “all.” As far as I know, all the evidence that I have presented on my site and in the Bible Wheel book remains valid. The only thing that has changed is my interpretation of what it all means. There really are errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God in the Bible. What’s a man to do? How should I understand the evidence? I have a tremendous paradox here. On the one hand, I have objectively verifiable evidence of some kind of “supernatural” design to the Bible, while on the other hand I have objectively verifiable evidence that the Bible is not true! What’s a man to do? I can’t act like a child and simply “believe what I’m told” by the traditional dogmas in light of all the contradictory evidence. And worse, I have seen that ALL CHRISTIANS who attempt to justify the Bible as the “inerrant and infallible Word of God” have corrupted their minds and their morals! They make God look like a fool when they try to “fix” all the obvious errors in the Bible with their abysmal arguments. For example, William Lane Craig, one of the most famous apologists in the world, said that God did the children no harm when he ordered them slaughtered because all babies go to heaven. Well, that means that abortionists have done no harm to the babies they killed. On the contrary, abortionists have saved all the souls that would have grown to be unrepentant sinners! By Craig’s logic (shared also by other apologists), abortionists have saved millions of people from suffering eternal conscious torment in hell! Probably more than Billy Graham.
You are correct that no one has found any refutation of the Bible Wheel. Nothing. Nada. Zip. And that’s after more than a decade of presenting the information on the web. But the sad fact is that very few people have ever tried. Especially amongst the small-minded ignorant “Christians” who are the most consistently abusive people I’ve ever met. I tried to discuss the evidence on the “Christian” forum TheologyWeb.com and was mindlessly mocked, ridiculed, abused, lied about, and spat upon in every way conceivable. It didn’t matter how much I tried to “humble myself.” On the contrary, humility only provoked them to abuse me more. Christians are like chickens that peck to death anyone who shows any sign of “weakness.” But if you stand up for truth and dignity they will accuse you of the greatest crime in Christendom – pride – even though that is what describes them best. They are a wicked lot. And it wasn’t just TheologyWeb. I encountered the same mindless abuse on the “Christian” ASA (American Scientific Association) forum. They would ignore all the evidence and simply mock what they did not understand. It left some pretty deep emotional scars, and convinced me that religious people generally have severe mental and emotional disorders, and are fundamentally anti-intellectual, irrational, and cruel.
Now none of that was the cause of my changes, but it did make it easier to think for myself. If my work had been accepted, I probably would never have been able to get the objectivity required to see and admit the errors in the Bible. I would have been too busy promoting my work and “proof of Christianity.” The real cause of my changes was simply the truth that the Bible cannot be believed in the way that Christians say it must be. If the Bible really is from God, then we must accept it as given. But no Christians do that. They twist words and deny the plain truth in an effort to conform the Bible to their preconceived dogmas. Sure, there is much that is good in the Bible. But it is mixed with much that is bad, such as the sexism that saturates it from beginning to end. God is presented as totally male – indeed, a Trinity of males. And woman is blamed for causing all the sin in the world which is why Paul commanded women to be silent, using the creation story as justification because “the woman was deceived.” Such oppression against half of humanity could not come from the Mind of God.
It’s not accurate to say that I “judge GOD” – I judge what I read in the Bible about it’s purported God. There is no way to avoid that – anyone who reads and interprets what is written must “judge” the words, to understand what they mean. When I do that, I see that the actions and commands of God are utterly absurd in many instances. For example, why would God inflict a three year famine upon all Israel (2 Sam 21) without even telling them why? Think of all the suffering that caused. And for what purpose? When David finally got around to asking, God said it was because of some crime of the previous king Saul whom God himself had set up as king over Israel. And God refused to lift the famine until seven sons of Saul were murdered and “hung up before the Lord” for months. It’s all nuts. No rational being would act that way! The Bible is filled with things like this. Consider the genocide he commanded. He is supposed to be the sovereign God – if he wanted the Canaanites out of the land he could have accomplished it himself without commanding the Israelites to become brutal baby killers! Why is God so enamored by violence? And why did he choose to emulate a typical Bronze age tribal war god? if the Bible really is from God, and God was free to inspire whatever he wanted, why did he choose to write such things? Why did he choose to present himself is such a bad and unbelievable light? How is it supposed to build faith? All the excuses made up by the apologists begin by implicitly denying their fundamental premise that God is sovereign. They write as if God had no choice, no other way to accomplish his desires. It is not I who has “Humanized GOD” – it is the BIBLE that presents him as an irrational, primitive, Bronze age tribal war god.
So that’s where I’m at. The evidence for some sort of “supernatural” design in the Bible remains, but it is countered with an equal body of evidence that the Bible was written by primitive and ignorant men, and that it contains errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, pagan mythology, and moral abominations attributed to God.
If you think you might have any insights into my dilemma, please share them.
All the best,
Richard
Richard, I wrote to you about this article earlier; I was somewhat surprised to read your blog. Then, I kept thinking about other wonderful websites containing the TRUTH of our Lord, such as Barrie M Schwortz’ (www.shroud.com) and couldn’t help but speculate that we are living troublesome days, therefore, it is more than likely that you have been forced to published this. Barrie’s website was maintained for close to 16 years with the firm idea to provide information about studies on the shroud and to NEVER sell nor promote commercial goods. Sadly, 9 out of 10 collaborators died (all in 2009) and suddenly, the website suffered a 180 degree turn. It was taken over and a store link immediately uploaded.
Reason, observation and intelligence indicate that there are evil forces acting upon good people, to undermine the spirit.
However, Christianity provides more than comfort to the soul, assurance in faith and strength of character. It also teaches you that fear of God is true Wisdom and acquired wisdom, happens to open your mind and elevate your spirit. From the spiritual heights of the wisdom of our Saviour I can tell you that many people that found a great inspiration in your work (bible wheel), continue to praise the Lord and realize that evil permeates any and everything that is earthly. Whether you are still at the front of the ‘writing pen’ at your blog or not, I for one (and am sure many followers will also feel the same way), pray for your eternal salvation. You have made a great good and laboured in pro of Gods word which is a sacred activity. If you truly turned from Christianity, may God put you back on track, and if this was a result of an unwilled act -forced upon you-, please know that our intellect goes as far as to understand.
God Bless You and may all Christians reinforce their Faith daily.
Victor
Hi Victor,
Thanks for the very interesting comments. I can assure you that I am, to the best of my knowledge, the same person who produced this website over the last eleven years. The only thing that has “forced” me to write about quitting Christianity is my own integrity. What do you think of the reasons I gave? Do they make sense to you? Have you dealt with similar issues? Can you understand where I am coming from?
I agree that Christianity can provide “comfort to the soul, assurance in faith and strength of character.” But then, so can Islam, Buddhism, and even Mormonism. I still think that Christianity is superior in many ways – the symbolic system is particularly rich and numinous. But I can’t see any evidence that there is a God who matches the Christian descriptions. I use the plural because there are a variety of descriptions of God in the Bible, and a lot of what Christians believe does not even come from the Bible but rather medieval philosophy and pop spirituality. The idea that God is absolutely unchanging and omniscient, for example, directly contradicts the idea that he has human feelings like love, pity, anger, etc. If God is truly omniscient then he never had an opportunity to make any choices of any kind, because he already knew what he would choose. He never really “chose” you or me or anyone or anything – he’s more like an impersonal force of nature and so all the words in the Bible become vain.
But beyond that, there are huge problems with the idea of theism found in traditional Christianity which portrays God as a moral agent who goes about doing things in the world. This means that every act of evil was witnessed by God as if he were standing right there next to the woman who was trapped in a rapists basement for 10 years. He stood there, close enough to touch her, and yet he did nothing but ignore her pleas for mercy and salvation, year after year he listened and did nothing. But we are to praise him for helping Aunt Sally find her dog Fluffy even as he doesn’t bother to tell any of his prophets that an earthquake is going to kill 200,000 Christians in Haiti. If a human moral agent acted this way, we would be horrified. We give God a pass because we have been programmed to believe without questioning. I say all this to explain why I find the concept of theism totally unbelievable. The world simply does not operate as if there were a God behind the scenes intervening in human affairs. If there really is such a God, he CANNOT BE TRUSTED for any specific promise. Christians constantly teach that we should trust God for everything. But what happens if we really do that? We die miserable deaths. Only when we stood on our own two feet and began taking care of ourselves using logic and science did we begin to progress. Think of antibiotics. Take 100 Christians with the plague, and 100 atheists. Let the Christians pray and the atheists take antibiotics. Who lives? Who dies? Where’s God in all this? And worse, Christians OPPOSED antibiotics because they had learned the pathetic doctrine that it was God’s will for us to suffer. Christianity made people sick, both physically and psychologically.
I’m sorry if you find my change disturbing, but I am speaking from the integrity of my heart. If you think I have erred in any way about anything, I encourage you to comment more.
All the best,
Richard
Richard, I have visited your web site a number of times over the last few years and have so appreciated your insights. I truly thank God for you and the gift he has given you. It has been some time since I have visited the site. Now, I see this forum and your statement of deconversion. What I think you don’t need are more words. I am dumbfounded, devastated, I mourn.
Lynn
Richard,
Thank you for your reply. Learning about Buddhism has helped me immensely in my spiritual journey. Yes, I have read the “Autobiography of a Yogi” – wonderful book. What helps me is to realize I am on my own spiritual path, which I feel intersects with Christianity but with an interest and tolerance for other paths. I am grateful that coming from a more liberal Protestant background (Disciples of Christ), my early religious background was more open-minded, ecumenical, inclusive, and less dogmatic and legalistic than other churches. When I left the church it was because of the actions of individual people – a bad preacher – that left me questioning my religion and feeling disillusioned.
On my journey back to Christianity, I have tried to let a spirit of love, peace, and reconciliation guide me (I believe this is the Holy Spirit). I have visited a Buddhist center, a Sikh gurdwara, a Hindu temple, a Jewish synagogue, a Unitarian-Universalist congregation, an Episcopalian church, a couple of Baptist churches, the Community of Christ Temple, Wiccan/Pagan gatherning, Methodist, Disciples of Christ, and Church of the Brethren – as well as listen to speakers of various faiths, including Islam, and reading many, many books. I, for the most part, greatly appreciated being able to meet people of various faiths and to learn about their spiritual practices. I probably am a Universalist….I believe we are all children of God.
It is unfortunate that you have had the experience of hateful Christians denouncing all of your work in forums. You have the discipline of a scholar.
You have denounced Christianity…
Denouncement – it is quite a bit like “detachment”.
Ask yourself, if you were to let go of being a disciple of Gematria and Bible scholarship, what would it be like if you studied what it would be to have a discipline of Christ?
When we can “let go” of our mind and our ego….detach ourselves from intellectual debates and logical/analytical understanding, then we leave space for our heart to open. Let God find you. “Be still, and know that I am God.”
And regarding unanswered prayers….I can only say I try to trust in God to know what is best for me and for his will and his purpose to be at work in my life. When I try to steer the ship, too often it is about to wreck. Better to let God be my guide….
Peace,
Deborah
Hi Lynn,
I understand where you are coming from. My changes took a lot of thought and a lot of time over a few years – it must seem like a sudden, unexpected shock to see how a person can change so much. But it wasn’t sudden for me or my wife. It all began in the fall of 2010 when we started our “fireside chats.” The first question we asked ourselves was “Why should we care what others think of us?”. One question led to another, and as we became more and more comfortable speaking our minds to each other and able to freely express the truth of what we really thought, the more it became evident that there were real problems with the Bible and the Christian faith.
You are correct, I don’t need more words. Indeed, I don’t feel like I need anything. And I too am dumbfounded – dumbfounded that I was blind to all the problems in the Bible for so many years. When I think back to when I was a devoted Christian I realize I was never confronted by problems like the immorality of God’s commands to commit genocide, for example. And I ignored the errors and myths that are in the Bible thinking that they could be understood spiritually, or as metaphors. Basically, I was blinded by the light of the amazing things I was seeing in the Bible. But now I see that there is just as much darkness as light in the Bible. I don’t deny the light, but neither can I deny the darkness. I never believed the Bible was the “inerrant and infallible Word of God” – I knew that wasn’t true and I was content to think of it as “God’s Book” and had no trouble letting God be God. He was under no obligation to produce a book with no errors. That’s just a man-made doctrine that directly contradicts reality. And I thought that the obviously supernatural design was enough to trump any errors. But as time went on and I tried to find out what I really believed about doctrines like Hell, Salvation, and Prayer, I found that I no longer could call myself a Christian because I simply cannot believe many things that define Christianity.
I wish there was something I could do to make you feel better, but that’s impossible as long as you believe that a person must hold a certain set of opinions about the Bible in order to be right with God.
Don’t hesitate to write if you have anything more you would like to say.
All the best to you,
Richard
Hi Deborah,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments.
I wonder how many Christians would think your faith authentic, given that you are so eclectic and consider yourself a Universalist. Most fundamentalists see Universalism as rank heresy.
It is interesting that you quote that verse. It was one of the favorites for both my wife and myself.
But I don’t think it accurate to suggest that there is a distinction between being a “disciple of Gematria and Bible scholarship” vs. a “discipline of Christ.” I was both. They were not in conflict with each other in any way that I can see. On the contrary, I received a profound sense of “seeing Christ” in my studies of Scripture. That’s why I became a fundamentalist. It seemed like the Bible was the “very Word of God.”
I very much understand that thee “left brain” mode is very limited, and it needs to be balanced by a “right brain” holistic view. But if I detach myself from “from intellectual debates and logical/analytical understanding” then I detach myself from Christianity, because that’s all there is to the religion. If you toss out the intellect, all you have left is a vague, broad, universal spirituality. I wouldn’t know a thing about Jesus if not for the words written in the book. Yes, there must be a balance, but that includes the intellect.
And when my heart opens, I become a universalist and see no need for Christian dogmas. Indeed, I find them very difficult and contrary to my heart which sees no one as “sinners” in need of “salvation.” Now there might be some beauty in the Biblical metaphors, but there is so much that has hurt so many people (e.g. Biblical sexism, exclusivity, condemnation, etc.), that I don’t really want anything to do with it right now. Maybe in the future I will find a balance.
How exactly does God serve as guide? We both know that you are speaking only of “inner guidance” – God never really does anything that you could say with certainty was done by him. And how do you discern between you own intuition and “God” speaking? You cannot. I know because I thought God was speaking to me too. But in hindsight, I see that I was all in my own imagination … or if it was really God, he left no way for me to discern between my own imagination and him. Or it could be that there is some sort of mystical union where God speaks to us through our imagination. That would be fine … but it also would have nothing to do with any particular religious expression. And that’s what it all comes down to now. As a Universalist, I would say I am a Hindu, Moslem, Christian, Jew, etc. … which means I’m really none of those. And since I don’t believe in the God of traditional Christian theism, it all becomes moot.
Thanks again for your thoughtful comments,
Richard
Thank you Richard for your response to my response (?). I deeply respect your honesty and openness in these discussions. That is a good thing. I have pondered over your words and am compelled to add some more of my thoughts – not to condemn you, or mock you, or anything of the sort. I am feeling “lead” to talk to you plain and simply. I am going to try to leave “Christianity” out of my perspective, but I cannot leave Jesus out of my perspective (if that makes sense?)
My first point of discussion is that “Christianity” should be judged by Jesus Christ alone. Relationship is the essence of following Jesus – not religion. You are correct in what you say about religion – it is self contradictory, proud, arrogant, misleading, destructive etc etc. Can you remember what Jesus said HIMself of religion? HE agrees with you Richard. Jesus condemned the Pharisees/Scribes/Teachers of the law over and over again – exposing their hypocrisy time and time again. Nothing has changed in 2000+ years. Religion is defined as man attaining to find GOD – man trying to effectively save himself through his own “goodness” (good works, good words, good thoughts). The Bibles obvious theme is that man can do nothing to attain GOD. Nada. Zilch. The Bible says that all of mans “goodness” is as filthy rags in GODs eyes. Instead, it is GOD HIMself that does the work to fix the broken relationship between creator and creation.
Can you remember what the disciples of Jesus did? They spent 3 precious years with the Messiah – hand in hand, face to face.They saw HIS miracles first hand, heard HIS words first hand, experienced HIS presence first hand. They saw HIM love everyone, and what did they do? They all messed up badly – time and time again. They doubted, they judged, they criticized, they argued, they denied, the abandoned Jesus in HIS most desperate time of trial. They were the 12 closet people to Jesus, taught by Jesus and loved by Jesus and they all left HIM when HE needed them most. Paul says himself, ROMANS 7:13-25 “WE KNOW THAT THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL; BUT I AM UNSPIRITUAL, SOLD AS A SLAVE TO SIN. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I DO. FOR WHAT I WANT TO DO I DO NOT DO, BUT WHAT I HATE I DO. AND IF I DO WHAT I DO NOT WANT TO DO, I AGREE THAT THE LAW IS GOOD. AS IT IS, IT IS NO LONGER I MYSELF WHO DO IT, BUT IT IS SIN LIVING IN ME. FOR I KNOW THAT GOOD ITSELF DOES NOT DWELL IN ME, THAT IS, IN MY SINFUL NATURE. FOR I HAVE THE DESIRE TO DO WHAT IS GOOD, BUT I CANNOT CARRY IT OUT. FOR I DO NOT DO THE GOOD I WANT TO DO, BUT THE EVIL I DO NOT WANT TO DO—THIS I KEEP ON DOING. NOW IF I DO WHAT I DO NOT WANT TO DO, IT IS NO LONGER I WHO DO IT, BUT IT IS SIN LIVING IN ME THAT DOES IT.” Even Paul did the wrong things that were contradictory to Jesus’ teachings. People are not infallible. People are imperfect, broken, fallen. I know that I am.
I guess that my point is to hold Jesus as the benchmark – not mankind. If you can find fault in anything that Jesus said or did then by all means, you may have a legitimate case in doubting the Word of GOD, but if you are merely comparing the scriptures (and more specifically, GOD HIMself) against the behaviour of people – then your case is built on unstable foundations to begin with and is destined to fail.
My second point is in regards to your statement that prayers are not answered. I am sure that you have already heard much about this from people with all kinds of experiences and opinions on the matter. I am simply going to ask you if you remember Jesus in the garden on the night of HIS arrest? HE prayed 3 times for GOD to “remove the cup of suffering before HIM.” But HE then relinquished authority back to GOD by saying, “be it your will not mine.” Firstly, GOD did answer the prayers of Jesus – HE said NO!
Being humans, we ALL hate to hear the word no. For some reason we feel that all we should ever hear is the word yes – and things should always go our own way (because we know best, right?). Often, however, being told no is for our own betterment. As an analogy – when a child asks a parent for something, the parent can only give 1 of 3 answers – yes, no or later. The parent generally has had more experience and has more knowledge than the child and (should) give an answer based on that “authority” for the best outcome for the child. More often than not, that answer is (and should be), NO. At the time, and because of a lack of foresight and experience/knowledge, the child can’t see the reasons behind the NO, only the negative effects of not getting what they wanted. This is the case with us and prayer. As clearly displayed in the garden of Gethsemane, GOD the Father knows best. HE said no to Jesus FOR THE GREATER GOOD. Like the child, our inexperience, lack of vision, selfishness, lack of knowledge only directs us to “blame and accuse” GOD when HE says no (or even when HE says “later”) instead of trusting HIM and relying on HIS care and love for us all. GOD “sees” what we can’t. GOD knows what we don’t.
Romans 8:28 “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.”
As an outside observer, I am truly convinced that GOD HAS answered your prayers Richard – just not in the way that you expected. GOD has answered your prayers by blessing you with the precious revelation of HIS Word, through the Biblewheel. GOD has rewarded you with Heavenly knowledge and charged and trusted you with the responsibility to share that knowledge. What an absolutely amazing answer to ALL doubts and questions regarding HIS existence, HIS authority and HIS intimacy with those who love HIM. Know that you are blessed among the prophets Richard !!!!!
Moving on, I would like to address “the doctrine of hell.” Many people stumble on this subject – especially “religious” people. From my own perspective, it really does just make plain common sense. Please allow me to present my thoughts. Jesus speaks more about hell than anyone in the Scriptures, therefore in HIS words – hell really exists – it is an actual location (debate rages on whether it is physical, emotional, spiritual or all 3. I am not going to go into those discussions at this time). It makes logical sense that there should be a separate place for lawbreakers (GODs law). As with the penal system on earth – “lawbreakers” are judged and if found guilty are imprisoned and separated from society to prevent them from continuing to disrupt and harm others. As imperfect as our judicial system is, it is a type for the system of GOD.
Now, basing my case on the fact that our spirits exist for eternity (as the Scriptures indicate) we must look at the eternal implications. GOD promises that those who love HIM will spend eternity with HIM in Heaven. HE gives us images and pictures and descriptions of heaven through the revelations to HIS prophets and more specifically through the life of Jesus Christ. The impression is that Heaven will be perfect, glorious, and complete love. Now why should those who hate GOD, deny GOD, abuse GOD, twist GODs Word, mock GOD, blame GOD, accuse GOD, reject GOD, and do the same to those who confess to love HIM, get to spend eternity doing the same terrible things to HIM and His people in GODs own house (Heaven)? Why should “haters” receive the rewards that the “lovers” receive. Do we give murderers, rapists, child molesters, thieves etc. rewards and blessings? No. We seperate them from society by imprisonment. Then how can we seriously expect GOD to NOT remove them from the society that HE is creating? As Heaven is GODs own establishment, shouldn’t HE have the exclusive rights to determine who (and how) “gets in” and who doesn’t. I don’t see any problem at all in this logic.
An analogy would be; me deciding who gets to live in YOUR house with you and your wife. They might hate you; be violent towards you and your wife; smash up your furniture; abuse you both – but because I chose them to live there, you (who built/purchased your own house) have no say in the matter. Shouldn’t you have the right to set and govern the laws of your own house? Shouldn’t you have the right of refusal to entry of your house? Yes, you would demand that, and yet you deny that legal right from GOD by saying “I can’t accept the doctrine of hell.” This is the statute that you are holding against GOD. It really doesn’t make any sense to hold that point of view at all.
Most importantly Richard please remember that Heaven isn’t “free.” It cost GOD absolutely everything to establish it and to have you and I there. HE bought it at the highest price. HE payed for it so that we don’t have to – because if we had to – we would never be able to afford to get in. We can never provide the required debt. Because of this, GOD holds heaven and HIS Heavenly society dearest to HIS own heart. HE bought us all with the blood of HIS Son.
The other thing to remember is that we all have the CHOICE as to how we spend our eternity. Whether we spend it in Heaven or not is OUR OWN CHOICE. GOD presents us with an offer, a gift – found in Jesus Christ. It is our choice to accept or reject it. We cannot hold GOD responsible for our own actions and choices. Surely you can see that Richard. If you had a son, and he brutally murders someone, should the accountability for his actions fall on your shoulders? No – because he made his own choices. You raise him right – teach him right from wrong; give him love, honour, respect, provide everything that he needs to survive (not necessarily everything that he wants) but by his own decision he becomes a murderer. Therefore because of his own decision, he and he alone owns the responsibility for that decision. As it is with us and GOD. Our actions are our choice – not GODs. GODs choice is for everyone to be saved (join HIM in HIS house). We accept or reject – but it is us alone that makes that choice.
Finally, in relation to your personal journey I would like to have a quick look at Simon Peter. Simon Peter was personally chosen by Jesus HIMself. He lived with Jesus, walked with Jesus, learnt from Jesus, talked with Jesus, participated with Jesus etc etc. He was chosen by Jesus as part of the elect 3 that were closer and most trusted by Jesus. He was present with Jesus at the transfiguration (Peter saw Moses and Elijah with his very own eyes!). Peter was one of the very first people at the empty tomb. On Peters own confession, Jesus laid the foundation for His church.
My point is that Peter and Jesus were tight man!
What did Peter do? He denied the Messiah. Not once. Not twice. 3 times denied. He loved Jesus with all his heart – as you do Richard. But fear, doubt, and trial and the threat of persecution (witnessing what was happening to Jesus) changed his mindset and suppressed his faith to the point of denial.
From an outsider looking in, this is where I see you. But take courage and hope Richard, in Peter, for when the irrefutable evidence (the risen Jesus) appeared to him, his faith returned and the truth set him free from all doubt and skepticism. He could no longer deny the facts before him.
Richard my friend, you have the irrefutable facts before you. You have GODs Word (the scriptures) and you have the blessing of the Biblewheel (GODs revelation about the scriptures).
May I suggest that you step back and reflect on the blessings that GOD has given you in your life as a Christian. Did you keep a prayer journal? A diary? If so, then read through them, meditate on the Glory of GOD and remember what GOD has done for you over time. Don’t focus on the part, but the whole.
Look at what GOD has done for you, not what life has done to you.
Be encouraged Richard, because I am certain that you will find your steps lead you back onto the narrow path. For Jesus prays the very words, “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.” John 18:9.
GOD bless you.
Hi Marco,
Thank you for your heartfelt response. Our conversation is getting a little deep for this blog software. If you really want to dig into these questions with me, it would probably be easier on my forum since the software is better for long conversations. Registration is fast, easy, and free if you are so inclined.
I think I understand what you mean – Christians have offered this “solution” more than once. The problem is that it makes no sense to me because we wouldn’t know anything about Jesus if not for the religion of Christianity and the Bible that it has given us. To say that “Christianity should be judge by Jesus alone” sounds like empty words to me. You say that “”Religion is defined as man attaining to find GOD.” If that’s true, then there is nothing for me to do. If I try to do anything – pray, read the Bible, believe in Jesus – I am trying to “find GOD” which you say is antithetical to finding God. Your advice seems self-contradictory.
You say “The Bibles obvious theme is that man can do nothing to attain GOD. Nada. Zilch.” Then what is there for me to do? What change in me are your words intended to make?
Again, I am at a loss to know what you think I should do. How can Jesus be a benchmark? He is not here in any way that you or I can perceive. The only thing we really have is the Bible and our own private interpretation of it because everyone reads it differently. I don’t understand what you mean when you say “if you are merely comparing the scriptures (and more specifically, GOD HIMself) against the behaviour of people.” I’m not comparing the Bible or God with “the behavior of people” – the problems are with what the Bible says. It contains errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God. How then can I believe it is the Word of God?
Concerning prayer – of course I understand that God could have good reasons to say “no” if I asked for riches or beautiful women or many other things that might not be good for me. But that’s not what I was talking about! I am talking about the fact that the Bible and Christianity exhort people to “trust God” to meet our needs here in this life. But God has proven himself entirely UNTRUSTWORTHY when it comes to our earthly needs. We must take care of ourselves or die. God simply does not, as a general rule, answer anyone’s prayers. The proof seems obvious: Take a 100 Christians and a 100 atheists and give them the plague. Let the Christians pray, and give the atheists antibiotics. Who lives? Who dies? Case closed. I can’t see any reason to believe that God intervenes in human affairs. I think this is totally obvious just by looking at how the world works. Just look at history. God was perfectly willing to let millions of people die by diseases and he did nothing no matter how much they prayed. What “GREATER GOOD” comes from him saying “no” to all those prayers? If God exists, he has chosen to do everything possible to convince people that he does not exist.
I would have said the same thing myself a few years ago. But that’s not the kind of prayers that we are talking about. I’m talking about the Christian exhortation that we are supposed to TRUST GOD for our welfare in this life. We are supposed to trust God in everything. But how is that different than trusting my pet rock? Can anyone actually RELY on God to do anything? The answer seems totally obvious to me. The answer is no. God has chosen to prove himself entirely UNTRUSTWORTHY with regards to all our needs down here on earth. If I break a leg, prayer won’t heal it. If I get sick, I will trust in antibiotics, but not God. And why not? Because I can look and see that God let’s people die like flies even in the midst of their prayers. This is just reality Marco.
Concerning hell:
The emphasis upon “law” makes no sense to me at all. Laws are just a human invention to control society. I doubt anyone has ever hated “God.” Indeed, the problem I’m having is that I don’t believe there is a God like the one in the Bible, so I certainly can’t “hate” him. But your doctrine says that I must go to hell because of my opinion about religious dogmas that I’ve been taught? That seems completely crazy to me.
I’m sorry, but your scenario makes no sense at all. I don’t know anyone who goes about hating “God” – nobody can even find him! The problem is that he apparently does not exist. And that’s the problem with the doctrine of hell. It seems insane to suggest that God sends people to hell because they reject religious dogmas about a God that doesn’t even appear to exist. The world is filled with contradictory religions. Ten thousand varieties of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and most people who have ever lived never heard of Jesus. But even if everyone had a chance to believe in Jesus it makes no sense to send them to hell because they didn’t agree to the dogma. It seems to me to be completely insane. Why would God determine anyone’s eternal fate based on their opinion about some religious dogma? It makes no sense to me at all.
Now it seems like you are contradicting the essence of the Gospel. All have sinned, remember? Who are the “lovers”? Did they choose to be God lovers? Then they were able to get saved by their own works. See the problem? The whole Christian dogma is logically incoherent, or utterly fatalistic (Calvinism).
But even if there were those who “loved God” and so earned their way into his heaven, why would God cause the “haters” to suffer eternal conscious torment? That sounds like what the Devil would do. And who would hate God anyway? Why would anyone hate God who is love? The only reason people reject Christianity is because the dogmas are unbelievable and the God seems to be purely imaginary. When we die, then who wouldn’t want to go to the light?
It’s not much of a choice when the Almighty God says “Love me or I will cause you to suffer forever in hell.”
And I have no “choice” to accept something that I don’t believe is true. And what kind of perverse person would insist that I believe something I can’t prove, or they will cause me to suffer eternally? If ever there were a doctrine invented by the twisted minds of men, this is it.
I get the impression you have never really thought about what it would mean to be eternally damned by God. Spend some time meditating on that. Imagine you are the one who is damned. Think deeply on this. If you still hold to the doctrine, then you have yet to perceive the depth of its perversity.
I’m really sorry, but your interpretation is contrary to both Scripture and logic. Scripture plainly teaches that God judges people and throws them in the lake of fire if they are not written in the book of life. They didn’t choose to go there. And if God really wants them to get into heaven, then we can all repent when we finally get proof in the afterlife that God is real. But NO! The Christians says it will be too late. I’ve always that that was so perverse – we are threatened with hell fire if we don’t choose to believe dogmas we can’t prove, and are told it will be too late to change our minds when we finally get proof! Who would invent such a perverse set of doctrines?
I appreciate your advice. I do have a small set of “answered prayers” I collected over the years. But when I look at the whole I see how small the set really is, and given that God is not trustworthy to answer “real prayers” they mean little to me now. They look more like immature credulity. Emotional projection. Selective memory. All the classic ways that people delude themselves into believing that God answered prayers.
If you want to know what I’m talking about, take a few minutes to watch this video. It shows how the answers you say God gives for prayer – Yes, No, and Wait – are the same answers you get when you pray to a milk jug.
Thanks for working with me on this.
All the best,
Richard
What are you trying to achieve with this blog? You win; you quit Christianity.
William,
What are you trying to achieve with your comment?
As for my blog, I am “achieving” self-expression. And hopefully it will help others free their minds from mindless dogmas. If so, I will have done my small part in helping the world be a little better.
I know it’s frustrating to see that there are no answers to the problems with the Bible and the Christianities it has spawned. But that’s just reality. Sorry.
Have you ever studied the actions of the Canaanites? They were homosexual, bi-sexual and practiced beastality, their unhibited sexual habits put a curse on all their cities and a curse on the land and the people. They had intercourse with babies to all the animals. They cast their babies in the fires of Moloch, the played drums to cover the screams of their innocent blood shed by their children by the hundreds minthly. That is why God in His Holiness had them destroyed, they were so lewd – vile – licentiousness ~ they corrupted everything around them! If you have never been raped like I was you would understand the revolting and feelings of the word “Abomination of the sexual sins totally.” And today America is headed down the same pathway!
I can understand why God’s judgment is necessary for ALL EVIL. That kind of personality is so revolting to you from that point on that Judgment is absolutely necessary!
Hi R E Van Osdol,
Where did you get those facts about the Canaanites? Please let me know the source so I can verify the information you have provided. I will then comment more.
Thanks,
Richard
Hello again Richard. Pardon my delay in responding to your last comments to me – but I took this all before The Lord in prayer. It is interesting and very very simple what I was shown.
Please consider this deeply, as it really should stabilize your doubts.
GOD the creator of the universe gave you are dream about rolling up the Scriptures like a scroll. You applied this insight and developed the Biblewheel. The Biblewheel (given to you by GOD) shed knowledge and understanding about the Scriptures (the Word of GOD) and confirmed the authenticity that the Scriptures (the Word of GOD) were given by GOD.
To simplify this even more;
GOD gives scripture – GOD gives Biblewheel – Biblewheel confirms Scripture – Scripture confirms GOD.
I think that is termed – self-authenticating!
From what I can discern from your previous posts, your “questioning” began about 14-15 years ago? You say that you began this website in 1995? Well that is 17 years ago (if my maths is correct)
Think about that for some moments please Richard.
******* GOD GAVE YOU IRREFUTABLE PROOF THAT HE EXISTS AND IS SOVEREIGN AND DIVINE 2 YEARS BEFORE YOU STARTED QUESTIONING IF HE EXISTS AND IS SOVEREIGN AND DEVINE !!!!!!!********
That is amazing !You must be able to see that for what it is Richard. That is GOD covering you in HIS amazing grace.
For GODs Word says;
“I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.”
ISAIAH 45
“For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.”
JEREMIAH 29
“Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever;
wisdom and power are His. He changes times and seasons; He sets up kings and deposes them. HE GIVES WISDOM TO THE WISE AND KNOWLEDGE TO THE DISCERNING. HE REVEALS DEEP AND HIDDEN THINGS; He knows what lies in darkness, and light dwells with him.”
DANIEL 2
“O LORD, You have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways. EVEN BEFORE THERE IS A WORD ON MY TONGUE, BEHOLD, O LORD, YOU KNOW IT ALL.”
PSALM 139
“While Your Majesty was sleeping, YOU DREAMED ABOUT COMING EVENTS. HE WHO REVEALS SECRETS HAS SHOWN YOU WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.”
DANIEL 2
Please meditate on what I have written Richard.
GOD Bless.
Hi Marko,
Thanks for the thoughtful post.
First, I need to correct a misconception. God did not give me a dream about rolling up the Scriptures like a scroll. I got my inspiration for the Bible Wheel by reading the Sepher Yetzirah which said that God placed the Hebrew alphabet in a circle. I then used that circle of letters as a grid to place ideas relating to each letter. For example, I put everything relating to Aleph and “beginnings” and the Number 1 on Spoke 1, everything relating to Bet and the Number 2 on Spoke 2, and so forth. I then began to notice that the content of the first few books corresponded well with the first few letters, and it dawned on me that I could put all the 66 books on the wheel of the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet.
I did have a series of dreams that proved very significant in the fall of 1990. I explained them in the post called Looking for Dumbo.
Now more to the point – I long believed that the Bible Wheel confirmed Scripture, and Scripture confirmed God. But now I have a problem. When I read Scripture, I see that it contains errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God. So now I have a paradox. No one has yet found any fundamental flaw or systematic error in the Bible Wheel. So the evidence for it remains as valid as ever. But neither has anyone been able to find a believable resolution of the errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God in the Bible. So I am stuck with a paradox. And a very strange one at that!
I don’t know where you got those numbers. I discovered the Bible Wheel on May 12, 1995 and founded this website on Feb 11, 2001. I did not begin seriously questioning the Bible until a few years ago after intense discussions with folks on my forum caused me to look at things that I had overlooked previously. Basically, I was “blinded by the light” of the amazing patterns I had discovered, and the numinous Biblical symbols like Alpha Omega, the Cross, etc., and all that was topped off with the light of the Gospel. I always knew there were things in the Bible that didn’t seem right, but I didn’t feel a need to explain them since I had so much “confirmation” that the Bible was “God’s Book.” But now that has all changed, and I find myself perplexed by a paradox of grand proportions.
I have meditated upon it, but it doesn’t address the things that have convinced me that the Bible is not the “inerrant and infallible Word of God.” There are many issues that you probably are not aware of. One of the most pressing is the whole concept of “theism” – the Biblical image of God is incoherent and therefore literally unbelievable. He is presented as a mix of a Bronze age tribal war god with limited knowledge and a lousy temper with the philosophical God of medieval scholastics who said he is absolutely unchanging, omniscient, and eternal. But if he is really unchanging, omniscient, and eternal in an absolute sense, then he never had a chance to make a decision about anything because he already would have known what he was going to do. He could never change his mind or learn anything or choose anything. Therefore, he did not choose you or me or anyone, and the Biblical picture of a God who is like a person who goes about doing things and cares about people is entirely false. Therefore, I have concluded that theism itself is unbelievable. There could be a “God” something like the “Ground of Being” but the traditional God of Christian theism is impossible as far as I can tell.
And that’s on top of all the errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God in the Bible. So I really can’t see how I could ever believe any of it again. Of course, things change (myself being a case in point) so anything is possible I guess … except the simple-minded anti-intellectual blind faith of any fundamentalist form of religion, of course.
Al the very best,
Richard
Richard,
Thankyou for all the work you put in on the website. It’s an amazing website and I have learned a lot that I would not have known otherwise.
I could get into a lot of discussion about the first two reasons you listed above. Hell and seeming contradictory commands. Neither one of those is something I have studied or have come to any great aha conclusions about.
The third reason you list about prayer is where I have to strongly disagree with you.
I have had many prayers answered in a timely manner. They have ranged from a situation where I was trying to get out of debt to many answered prayers when I was adopting a child. Seemingly impossible situations have been turned around 180 degrees. Prayer is the only answer I can give as to why it happened that way.
It has not always gone according to MY plans either.
I can absolutely say that heart motive has a lot to do with how prayers are answered. But it ultimately has to do with God’s plan and Will.
All things work together for good to them that love God, who are called according to his purpose.
When I was a teenager, I would ask God to let my basketball team win. It almost never worked. God was not a genie in a bottle that would grant my wishes as I saw fit.
One passage that points this out:
James 4
1From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Gregg
Another thought on a seemingly unrelated topic.
I came to your website this morning looking to see if there was a pattern in the scripture that locked in a numerical check sum. (Actually Google brought me here)
It appears that in Genesis 1:1 there is: 73*37.
Have you found other verses that are as perfect as genesis 1:1?
My meaning is that by finding those perfect verses, you could see the ones that are missing the perfection.
In digital binary code, there is normally a check sum bit that you get when add up all of the bits. If the sum is even it is a zero. If the sum is odd, it is one. by this you can tell if the Byte has been corrupted.
Linus Torvolds came up with a file management system called GIT. He used a Sha1 algorithm to come up with a cryptographic hash. This allowed him to see if code had been changed. All he had to do was run the algorithm, and compare it to a hash value that he could write down and keep in a safe. That way he could see what code had been tampered with.
Could God have encoded in the text an error correction that could be run to see where errors have entered into the text? Could it even be such that there is enough redundancy in the text that those errors could be corrected by math?
If humans can come up with this concept in things like QR codes, God could easily have placed this error correction and redundancy in scripture.
I have read writings of Rabbi Akiva. He is truly evil. He twists scripture and he lies to people. He hates gentiles. Rabbi Akiva had a lot to do with the masoretic text that we have today. There are new testament passages that refer back to Old testament passages that are in the LXX but are not in the masoretic text. These scriptures are mainly references to the messiah. Could there be other passages that he changed to justify his hate of Gentiles?
Christ told us to Love our enemies multiple times, but he was quoting proverbs.
I have studied the life and ministry of Christ. I have found that John 6:4 can not be true. Christ and 5000 Jews would not be out in the wilderness during passover.
I found that one Greek text (Miniscule 472) does not have John 6:4 in there while all of the other verses in John 6 are there.
I found that Mathew was originally written in Hebrew not Greek.
You are an extremely intelligent guy. God has used you. He has prepared you for a time in the future where you could make sense of these contradictions.
The average Christian knows nothing of Hebrew and Greek. He knows nothing of the contradictions. He sits in church on Sunday Morning and complains if the sermon is longer than half an hour. He does not read the Bible for himself.
You are in a position to throw the gauntlet down to challenge the Christians and Jews to solve these apparent contradictions. You are in a position to identify error correcting code if it exists. I have never seen anything like your gematria database before. It is really a breakthrough in studying by the numbers. Think about it.
My gut is telling me it has something to do with the Aleph Tav.
God if You are real, Restore your Word.
I believe He will in His timing.
Gregg
Hello Richard,
Just wanted to say to you thank you for this site. I am sure now that this is where i was lead. i wanted to tell you to remember that God said, my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways, they are higher and inconceivable to us. we have finite mind and serve an infinite God. Because we do not understand does not mean that he is not. This is why it is faith. As another posted before, i do not believe for one second that God is finished with you, you are a blessing and your open mind and need for truth is a gift. God bless you and keep you in your seeking.
Hi Trey,
Thanks for your comments. Many people offer the verse about “my ways are higher than your ways” as a reason to ignore the problems we see in the Bible. Unfortunately, there is nothing “higher” about those problematic passages. On the contrary, there are problematic because they present God as commanding things that all normal moral people find abhorrently immoral.
I know I’m not a “finished product” but I think the real issue is that Christians need to rethink their opinions about God, the Bible, and their traditional dogmas. Why should we believe things in the Bible if they are clearly wrong? Maybe it is a test from God to see if we put truth over dogma. It makes more sense that God would reward me for rejecting falsehood no matter where I find it than that he would cast me into hell for failing to believe some religious dogma.
All the best,
Richard
Hey there Gregg,
Yes, I have found a number of verses that have amazingly coherent alphanumeric structures. Take a look at my Gallery of Biblical Holographs where I list the main results of my research.
I guess he could have, but I don’t think that is what’s going on here because we don’t know what the “check sum” should be and I can’t think of any way we could use the alphanumeric values to “fix” an erroneous text.
Yes, that’s possible, but I haven’t really researched it. Do you have a link to the material you have read? I know that folks on both sides of the debate (Christians and Jews) have had reason to alter the text to support their side of the argument. This makes it all the more difficult to sort out the truth.
That’s fascinating! I didn’t know about. If it is an insertion, it would help fix the chronological contradictions between John and the synoptic Gospels which have only one passover, and hence, only a one year ministry of Christ. John has three passovers, which is why folks believe that Jesus had a three year ministry. Oddly, they rarely seem aware that this is a huge contradiction.
Actually, I think he was quoting Leviticus 19:18, and unfortunately that verse was speaking about how Hebrews were supposed to treat other Hebrews. It was not a command to love gentiles.
That is all too true. I searched for intelligent Christian fellowship for well over a decade and never found it. And when I went online to “Christian” forums to discuss my discoveries I was met with utterly mindless moronic mockery and wicked abuse. I think the reason is pretty simple – intellectual inquiry is the primary threat to dogmatic religions. They are taught that blind faith is a virtue, and to doubt a sin. That’s why dogmatic religion is a mind killer. It corrupts both the mind and the morals of those who have been indoctrinated.
That’s possible, but I don’t see how it is very relevant since God did not preserve it or include it in the Bible in that form.
I enjoy throwing down the gauntlet. But I’m pretty well convinced that there are no solutions that will allow the traditional Christian interpretations to stand. But now I’m stuck with a profound paradox. All the evidence of “supernatural design” of the Bible remains, but I can’t believe the book is really from God since it contains errors, contradictions, and moral abominations it attributes to God. So I’m in a very interesting position. But I like it!
Thanks for your good words and interesting comments,
Richard
Hi again Gregg,
The problem with hell touches the essence of the Gospel since that is what people supposedly need to be saved from. And the problem with contradictions, errors, and moral abominations make it impossible to believe that the Bible is true or that it accurately describes the true God.
As for prayers – I was a Christian for two decades, and I believed that God answered some of my prayers. But upon further reflection, I found I could not justify that belief. The problem is that folks are very subjective in their assessment of answered prayers. They pray, and wait. If nothing happens, they think God answered their prayer by saying either “no” or “wait more.” On the odd chance that something happens that somehow approximates what they were hoping would happen, they declare the prayer answered. But that’s all subjective and not verifiable. And worse, it can’t be correct because that would mean that God is going about answering trivial prayers for believers while completely ignoring much more important life and death matters like the Haiti earthquake. He could have sent a telegram or a prophet to tell the Haitians to get out of town for a day and no one would have died, and everyone would have had proof that God not only was real and answered prayers, but also cared about people. But nothing like that ever happens in the world. It’s just not how the world works. Hence, I have concluded that there is no God who actively intervenes in human affairs. This contradicts the fundamental doctrine of Christianity which says that we should TRUST GOD for all things in this life. If God has proven anything, it is that he is not trustworthy in these matters.
Thanks for taking the time to work with me on these questions.
Richard
Absolutely, i agree with you. I am not as learned, and i find it hard to understand many things of the Bible, but it does not mean that i do not believe in Him. Neither were the apostles learned it was the very attitude of the religious that the Lord criticized and cursed, saying that they were of the devil. i agree, in spirit and in truth wherever it may lead us. When He promised the Spirit of Truth and said follow me, I understand this as following Him only and He will reveal those things that i must know, in His time. Christians today are the pharisees of yesterday, and with the Bible, it has gone through so much, and so many hands and interpretations and controversies, that i can see inaccuracies being possible as we are humans, but gods word will prevail (that is my faith)
Again, thank you for this page. i am looking forward to what you find, as i am seeking the truth too.
I hope u don’t mind,
God bless you.
Hi Trey,
It’s great to meet another person seeking the truth. Don’t hesitate to write with any other questions or comments.
All the best,
Richard
On Loving enemies.
Proverbs 25
21If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
22For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.
Christ spoke of the loving your neighbor as yourself . When asked who was your neighbor, He gave the good Samaritan parable to demonstrate loving your enemy.
Its the same concept. Even Leviticus 19:18 is talking about enemies. Paul says “we wrestle not against flesh and blood”: Which means anybody that you think is your enemy is not really your enemy.
The Jewish leadership was in opposition to this and thus would twist it to mean only other Jews. That is why Christ spoke to them in parables. They were wrong and their authority was taken away.
Hey there Gregg,
Thanks for reminding of that passage in Proverbs. I wasn’t thinking of it because it has a very different sense than “love others as yourself” since it speaks of heaping coals of fire on their heads. And when Paul quoted it he said “avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord” (Romans 12:19). That has a lot of unloving overtones to my ear.
I agree that Christ expanded the law given in Lev 19:18 to include all people. I don’t see how you can say that it was talking about Gentiles since it specifies “the children of thy people” –
Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people [fellow Israelites], but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Richard
You wrote:
“That’s possible, but I don’t see how it is very relevant since God did not preserve it or include it in the Bible in that form.”
Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew is a text based upon the original Hebrew version of Matthew. Nehemiah Gordon wrote several books on it. There are several videos out on the web that go into great detail what was so important about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tddCNY6U77Y
It is fascinating stuff. You are very much like Nehemiah Gordon.
I love it when people are really smart and really trying to live out their faith and see issues. Martin Luther was one, but he did not go far enough. While Luther started out as a Catholic, Nehemiah started out as a Pharisee. Nehemiah’s understanding of the problems with Orthodox Judaism is amazing.
I find that the more I look at inconsistencies with the text, I find that it is:
1. I don’t understand the text.
2. The text has a bad translation.
3. The text has had mistakes in Copying.
4. The text has been deliberately falsified or changed.
I only go to number 4 when I rule out the first three.
John 6:4 is such a verse. Its possible that 1st John 5:7 is as well, but I have not studied the trinity in enough depth to make an opinion.
Anyway, I wanted you to know about Hebrew Matthew. The hebrew roots folks consider it important because Christ told them to Do as the Scribes and Pharisee’s told them when they sit in moses seat. Don’t do what they say and don’t do what they do.
It is not clear in the Greek. Nehemiah explains it all with great demonstrations using props and photos that bring the text alive.
Gregg
I saw Nehemiah Gordon with Michael Rood when they gave a presentation here in Yakima. I have big problems with Rood since he falsely predicted the day of the Lord would happen in 2000 (amongst other problems). I don’t know that much about Gordon.
I agree that the Shem Tov manuscript is interesting, but it’s pretty late (14th century) and there’s no way for anyone to know if it is based on the original Hebrew version of Matthew or if it is just a Rabbinic translation of the Greek or Latin version of Matthew. The wiki says “Most scholars consider all the rabbinical versions to be translated from the Greek or Latin of the canonical Matthew, for the purpose of Jewish apologetics.” The same article also says “The Shem Tov Matthew (or Shem Tob’s Matthew) consists of a complete text of Gospel of Matthew in the Hebrew language found interspersed among anti-Christian commentary in the 12th volume of a polemical treatise The Touchstone (c.1380-85) by Shem Tov ben Isaac ben Shaprut (Ibn Shaprut), a Jewish physician living in Aragon, after whom the version is named.”
Martin Luther was a curious case because he was horribly anti-Semitic.
I have a fifth option that I begin with:
5. The Bible was written by ignorant superstitious people with primitive morals (genocide, slavery, sexism).
Therefore, the errors, contradictions, and moral abominations attributed to God are easily understood.
Of course, this doesn’t help us understand how the patterns like the Bible Wheel and the Holographs got in there. It is a mystery …
I think the “Hebrew roots” movement is largely a cult. They have a huge problem with the Bible, and freely change what is written. For example, they change the name of Paul to Rabbi Sha’ul even though he never refers to himself that way in his letters. It’s just another splinter group from the Protestants who split from the Catholics who split from the Greek Orthodox. This is one of the reasons why I KNOW that the true God could not care less what I believed about the various religions that have split off from Judaism under the name of “Christianity.” There really is no such thing as “Christianity” – only thousands of “Christianities” each with their own idiosyncratic beliefs. So I don’t believe any of it, and can’t imagine that any God could judge anyone for rejecting it all.
Here are a few links on Akiva and the LXX.
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/septuagint.html
http://www.homb.org/resources/docs/Septuagint-Verses-Masoretic-Translations.pdf
http://www.setterfield.org/Septuagint_History.html
Thanks for the links. I’m pretty familiar with the history of the LXX. The second link you gave is quite polemical and makes a number of oversimplified statements that aren’t really accurate. Yes, the NT often quotes the LXX, but not consistently. And the LXX has many problematic passages where it seems apparent that the translation was very poor. So it’s not a simple matter and it can’t be said that the LXX is always right when it differs from the MT. Textual criticism needs to take into account all the information.
It is true that the Jews began to reject the LXX when they found themselves arguing with Christians because there were some readings that supported Christianity. But on the other hand, it is the MT that has the evidence of the holographs supporting it. But this introduces new problems. Case in point: The second link complains that the word “light” is missing from Isaiah 53:11 in the MT. Well, I think he is correct that that word should have been there because it is in preserved in both the LXX and the oldest copy of Isaiah. But this throws a wrench in my gematria because I was very impressed by the fact that Isaiah 53:11 MT sums to 3168 which is the value of LORD JESUS CHRIST in Greek. I thought it was amazing to find that number as the value of the verse that so clearly prophesied of Christ:
LORD JESUS CHRIST = 3168 = He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. (Isaiah 53:11)
I think this is an example of how random chance can be mistaken for design in gematria. I don’t have any confidence that the value of that verse was really pointing to Christ at all. It was probably just a coincidence.
This all brings up another fundamental problem with the Bible. The Bible is a religious text and the folks involved with it have been highly biased in favor of their own doctrines and inclined to changed the text to fit their preferred dogmas, so how could anyone trust it?
I agree that Michael Rood was wrong multiple times about the day of the lord, As is everyone else who makes the prediction setting a date. Michael worked for the Way International. His historical doctrine….meaning the Jonah Code 70 week ministry came from the Way international. I know because I found a pdf of their working manual from the early 80s on the web.
He differs from the Way international because they are pretrib and he is post trib. He goes into great detail about that in one of his videos.
He also claims some ownership of the work of Ron Wyatt who claimed to have found the Red Sea Crossing and Noahs ark. Rood is just good at story telling. He is also “good” at claiming others work as his own. When he goes off on his own he is always completely wrong.
I never trust one source….I always check to see if I can find two or three.
Nehemiah Gordon is very insightful and as close as I can tell, he is truthful. He does not make grandios claims and he does not try to predict the future.
He is not completely on board with Shem tov hebrew matthew. He is able to read and tell where the commentator’s notes start and stop. He is not a christian even. He is a Karite Jew.
If you have the time, watch his video. It’s very good.
Yes, date setters have a 2000 year record of perfect error. They make a mockery of the Bible and Homo Sapiens (supposedly “wise man”).
I knew Rood was a member of the Way International cult, but I didn’t know that’s where he lifted his “Jonah Code.” It just goes to show how charlatans get into religion because that’s the biggest population of gullible people who have been programmed to believe without thinking. And that’s another reason I reject the Bible and all dogmatic religions. Corrupt leaders lobotomize people and make them into fools who soon lose their money, minds, and morals.
And Rood has been LYING about being a “Messianic Rabbi.” He’s not a Jew. He was never raised as a Jew. He just made that up to bilk people of their money. Yet Christians gave him a big platform for him to proclaim his lies. That’s all the proof I need that they are not really don’t have anything like the “Holy Spirit” that “guides them into all truth.”
“5. The Bible was written by ignorant superstitious people with primitive morals (genocide, slavery, sexism).”
The Bible was given to Ex slaves. It has a sincerity in that it lays all of their problems and sins out there in a record. David was a man after God’s own heart. He was a lying, Adulterous, murderous fornicator. He had over 700 wives. But he was repentant for his sins. I find hope in the fact that his sins were forgiven him. His salvation did not depend on his actions: Only his belief in God and his Savior to come.
Honestly. Genesis 1:1 has the plan of salvation right there in the Hebrew.
Christ is right there in the center of it. If that was all we had, it would be enough.
Richard,
I hope you understand that nobody needs YOUR answers to what you consider “problems with the Bible”. Do you really believe that the faith of a Christian will be shaken by intellectual arguments? Or that the apostasy of the whole world will move a true believer? On the other hand, I’m sorry to tell you that the only reality here is the FACT that you epitomize 2 Peter 2.
To answer your question, I’m trying to wake you up since it is evident Satan got a hold of you and, from your own comments, your wife. I just hope you don’t make others trip on their faith as that will have grave consequences on your eternal existence. Just remember that the Son of God died on a cross to save human souls. Your “self expression” is enmity to that sacrifice and should not be taken lightly. I hope you repent and go back to your Creator in true worship and praise. Life was not given to you to have fun or “freedom”. You are here to serve and glorify God Almighty and his Son, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
Hello Richard,
Thanks for sharing the knowledge the Lord has been willing to give & reveal to you. Really appreciate this. Hope and expect (if you really love truth & His righteousness, Mat. 6:33) that you sooner or later will be convinced of~/ or recognize the full Truth.
[~ since Truth is still, ‘from the beginning till the end’ what the Bible/Christ/Christianity is all about. (.. “everyone on the side of truth listens to me” John 18:37.) ]
Well what can I say; certainly regret that you seem, or are ‘inclined to’ give up..[~>..if you would have given up totally, you would have certainly ‘closed the case’ & all further discussion.]
Whether you will believe, (again) or not, is, ‘I guess’ all up to the Lord and really something between you and Him.(~>Rom.9:14-18). ..believe the Lord is still the One who ‘knows & reveals’.
‘Seems’ though that you haven’t met yet one of His disciples; who would have certainly inspired/taught and (Lord willing) baptized you. (~>and if necessary again) ; since the Holy Spirit is only received at the baptism(Acts 2:38) =>..when the Word is offered (and accepted) in “it’s fullness” (Col1:25-26).
And since it is plain to see that first century ‘Christianity’ [Acts 2:42-47/ Eph.4:4-6] is a ‘little different’ than ‘christianity’ today, maybe the discussion should shift to “how to really ‘define’ ‘Disciples/Christians’..; or the Holy Spirit..: who truly leads and inspires them to really use the complete Word; to ‘teach, correct, rebuke and train in righteousness’..(2 Tim 3:16)
Whatever you may think of Jesus, as the “son of Man”, the Holy Spirit is and remains for ever Holy. As the Teachings in the NT are undeniably Holy.. (hope you don’t disagree..)
First century disciples had knowledge and had truly received His Holy Spirit..
(=>so they won’t deny/distrust any command in the NT)
And instead of many “christians’ today, they will not only talk about the LORD, but truly come in His Name; since they personally received the authority to baptize and teach in His Name.
As also today, only ‘disciples’ will really keep the Lords final command. [Mat 28:19-20 => to baptize (in the Name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit) and teach people (‘of all nations’) EVERYTHING the Lord has commanded us.].
This ‘everything’ (the full truth , John 16:13) really defines all commands of the NT; including (how ‘shocking’ this may be) the prayer-commands (for women 1 Cor.11, for men 1Tim 2:8) and the only complete natural/ pure Way (1 Tim 2:15 => no birth control).
I wouldn’t trust any ‘priest/minister/Christian’ who disobeys/ignores (these) clear commands: the Lord really means what He says. (Hebr.4:12/ Rom.12:4/ 2 Tim3:16). This requires/implicates sincere repentance for almost all ‘christians’/churches; exactly as described in the ‘7 Churches/Spirits’ in Rev. 2/3: ..as they truly reflect the status quo of the many ‘churches/christians’ in (also) our days.. ; [only ‘Philadelphia’ (Brotherly Love, maybe next to Smyrna) gets not rebuked and is really loved by the Lord: being encouraged “to hold on to what he has/they have”.] [NB:=> even Cain& Abel shared not a “brotherly Love”]
The Holy Spirit – who teaches and guards true unity and thus keeps & teaches ALL the commands, is certainly not of this world: this is the only Spirit that will ’cause’ and receive the hate Jesus is talking about (Mat 10:22).
Disciples will really challenge/correct/encourage & rebuke (=>or rebuke & encourage) ‘all people’ incl. the ‘prince(s) of this world. (John 16:11) (Rev 11).
Since you have not received/ ‘met’ yet this Holy Spirit, (=>’guess you were ‘not blinded’ by the Light Paul met on his way; Acts 9) I hope you still feel invited to ‘the struggle to get in’ (Luke 13:24/Hebr. 4:11).
Lord is really able to surprise – as He is really still alive – and very well able to lead/reveal.
[=>the concept/ truth about hell by the way, is related to righteousness and free will: ..”all who draw the sword will die by the sword” (Mat 26:52); next to this principle people are still free to believe whatever they want and may think Jesus is not serious when He warns them.(Luke 19:27).. or even that is a liar. ..(~ if He not a liar, it is simply true.)
He will always leave us a free choice..
Doubting seems – at times – inevitable and certainly needs to be expressed [=>eventually all his ‘apostles’ doubted/were unfaithful; and even John the Baptist (Mat. 11:2-3)] ;
believe though there are some very crucial decisions/moments (Judas, Annanias/Saffira) in a man’s life, with in fact/ indeed eternal consequences..
Talking about ‘eternal’ :
It is just a fact that there will never ever be another ‘Mr. R.A. Mc Gough’ in eternity, so your choices will always have eternal consequences: .. it’s really either eternal Life/ Kingdom of Heaven: being connected, one with the Lord/Truth, or not.. when you not accept acknowledge Him as Lord & Savior.; as the only Way, Truth & real Life.
Christ/ Love would not be Love.. if He would not have given you a free will..]
The Lord promises though to protect and guide us, if we truly trust and obey Him..: really take Him/truth serious.. ; [=>and let’ s not forget: He still was really willing to go all the Way….=> also for us “tax-collectors and ‘prostitutes’ (Mat 21:31) (John 8), ‘musicians and scientists’]
=> It is really Love if one lays down his own life in order to save the life of his friend(s) (John 15:13)=> as He can completely see where sin eventually will lead to..: He knows hell is a reality.
Not being connected to Him, will, (according to Bible?Jesus) not lead to eternal Life/ entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven. (see also Gen.3:22b/ Gen. 3:24b)
This will I’m afraid implicate that climbing ‘the mountain of the Lord’ will, – for sure – make all people, who have other guides/no guides, fall, (Ps 24:3 / Rev 2:5, Isa 8:12-18) [=>since only a Living Christ knows, instead of guru’s/Pharisees etc., the Path till the very end (and thus can truly prevent us from any sudden/serious (pit)fall..) next to the fact that only Jesus, truly accepted as Christ and Lord, can offer us forgiveness..],
=> it’s up to His disciples to make this as clear as possible; .. to everybody the Lord decides to call.
Christ will hopefully, as ‘Logos’, always convince us that we can better focus on Him/His Love/Sacrifice/Perfection, than on temporary or eternal ‘hell’/imperfection, which is simply not worshipping/trusting the Lord, the Author of Life:
Better seek the ‘Kingdom of Heaven’ and praise the Creator for His perfect and stunningly beautiful Plan, than focus at the consequences (or reasoning) of people who violate/have violated the everlasting ‘Golden Rule’: Truth, Love and forgiveness. (=the NT)
Most of the time (if not always) out of ignorance.
Knowledge is great (and necessary) but keeping His commands is what truly matters/counts; only this will liberate people/us and makes us truly experience His guidance and Love.
(NB: really every true ‘accepted’ Christian disciple/ member of the Body is commanded to make/baptize disciples) (see also Isaiah 8:12-18/ 8:16=> “bind up the testimony and seal up the Law among my disciples”);
This makes it clear to me that only Christians who are really known and behave as disciples (they do not hide themselves) will fully experience the guidance/promises of the Lord.
[=>Catholics/ protestants etc who have not been taught ‘everything’ (and certainly do not teach everything) have therefore for sure not yet received the Holy Spirit.. (~>have not died at their baptism (Rom6) and thus are not really save(d) yet as intended..]
A/’the’ truly united Group/ true unity, true ‘brotherly love’ among disciples, will eventually/ certainly surprise, shock and challenge the world.. (including all ‘churches’)(Rev. 11). (Rom 8:18-25)
We can only pray and fast, wash our robes and be prepared:
As Christ did walk on this earth and not only demonstrated to us His complete knowledge of the Tenach, but also proved us that even Proverbs 12:28 is really true.
Hope you ‘simply see(k) Him (ps 24:6/ Mat 5:3/ 2 Cor 10:5) (Mat 6:33) and never, never give up. (Luke 18:1/ Hebr.6:10-12/ Hebr.10:22-25).
“that we may truly have ears to hear and eyes to see. (Luke 24:16 / Ps 119:58)
Success with the search; (Jer. 29:13)
Kind regards,
Harold Habers
Hi Richard, I saw your bible wheel book about a month ago when I was reading proverbs 9:1-18. I wanted to know why seven pillars and in short I looked up seven on the internet and found your bible wheel information. Now I see you are quitting Christianity. I didn’t know that there was a membership offered. I hope you got a refund. Hey Richard all humor aside you are not the first to go what your going through and because of the type of person that you are you will chase after God til He answers you. Keep chasing and asking questions, but don’t forget to humble yourself before Him, The Great I Am, so that what you hear is loud and clear. Blessings brother.
Hey there Ben,
I appreciate your humor. And yes, I did get a refund – my mind was given back to me! I now can think freely without those constricting little dogmas chaffing my thoughts all day. It feels great. LOL
Concerning your suggestion that I humble myself before God – how exactly is a man supposed to do that? When I reflect on how I prayed in the past, I see it was just me talking to myself. Just me seeking to hear from God. Me, me, me. Thoughts might enter my head and feelings my heart – but how was I supposed to discern between my own thoughts and feelings and those given by God? When I talk to other Christians, especially those that claim to hear from God on a regular basis, I find that they appear to be totally deluded. They think God said this and God said that, but the stuff they attribute to God sounds much more like their own vain self-serving imagination. So what’s a man to do? This is a very sincere question – I was a Christian for two decades and I witnessed every kind of craziness attributed to “God” when I knew it was just their own imagination.
All the best,
Richard
Hi William,
I agree no one needs MY answers to the problems in the Bible. But by the same logic, no one needs YOUR unfounded assertion that the Bible is God’s Word. It’s all just the potsherds clashing with other potsherds. You have your opinion and I have mine. But my opinion has one small advantage – it is based on sound logic and verifiable facts.
Of course not! If a person accepts a belief without reason, they cannot be argued out of it with reason. But I find it curious that you so freely admit that your beliefs have no intellectual foundation.
I find it quite revealing that you think it is “evident” that “Satan got a hold” of me. And your use of the word “evident” is quite comical given that you reject all evidence contrary to your unsupported beliefs. And your implicit assertion that authentic reasonable doubt of Christian dogmas can only be evidence that I am under the influence of Satan reveals that your religion is a cult that demonizes thinking. That’s how all cults work – even Scientology lists “Doubt” as almost the worst of all ethical conditions. This is why I never fit in with Christians. They tend to be small-minded, ignorant, and arrogant. They fear new ideas but think that have direct knowledge of Ultimate Truth. But in fact they fear reality and truth. They attack free thinkers as if they were ruled by Satan. They fear one of the most ennobling attributes of Homo Sapiens – the intellect. They know that the only way their cult can survive is to stop people from thinking and asking questions. Blind belief is the royal road to salvation. Thinking for yourself puts your soul in mortal danger and anyone who asks real questions or points out real problems with the Bible must be demonized. This exemplifies how Christianity corrupts both the minds and the morals of those who believe it.
And there is a great irony in your warning that my honesty will have “grave consequences” on my “eternal existence” if it happens to “make others trip on their faith.” You already believe I’m going to hell if I don’t repent – I guess you are warning me my eternal suffering will be made “worse” if I caused others to lose their faith? Is that it? Is that what you are telling me? It sounds like you have developed a theory of transfinite suffering in hell. Some people only suffer a simple infinity of torment, but God has created a higher order of infinite suffering for people that influence others away from the faith? I get the impression you have never really thought about the implications of the Christian Doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell. I recommend that you spend a few minutes meditating on what that doctrine really entails. Personally. Imagine you are one of the damned. Eternally.
If the Doctrine of Hell is true, then God is the Devil and all the promises of heaven are tricks designed to suck more pain out believers when they find they’ve been duped.
Your homework
Genesis 3:5
Psalms 118:8
1 Corinthians 1:18
Job 11:8
Matthew 18
Greetings,
First of all, let me say I found your sight when searching for information on the TNK.
Second, I am an evangelist, husband, and father of nine children.
Third, I accept your invitation to answer you on your deconversion, which I found on another post.
Please forgive me if I do not understand your situation fully.
HELL: If there is no hell, there is no heaven.
OT DESTRUCTION: Justice. This is the reason for it. God is just. He will not let sin go unpunished. Hence, Jesus, our punisment. The things that were written of old were written for our learning, that we may not crave evil things. God’s full justice will return when Jesus returns, dealing out vengeance on those who are troubling us. Consider abortion. The greatest form of murder today. This will bring the justice of God. It has to. Sins in the Old Testament were written to warn us of God’s justice.
PRAYER: At least with me, as a general rule, indeed even specific, God does answer my prayers. The last stray with me is my sin. That is why I believe in God. He is holy, I am a sinner. That is why I believe in God. It’s the last straw.
If disunity among Christians destroys your faith, well then we would all be unbelievers quickly. But as Peter said when everyone left Jesus, to whom shall we go, you have the words of life. The messiah Jesus Christ has the words of life.
I urge you to read this tract below, which I wrote, not for the title of it, but for the content in it. I want to encourage you to continue with Jesus.
http://www.freebiblestudy.org/You_Shall_Not_Die!.pdf
Thank you for letting me discuss this with you. Bless you.
Rick David, an Evangelist and Author of FreeBibleStudy.org
Hi Rick,
Thanks for taking time to share you insights. I very much appreciate it.
HELL: What version of Christianity do you follow? The vast majority teach that sinners will suffer eternal conscious torment in hell.
OT DESTRUCTION: You assertion that God “will not let sin go unpunished” is entirely false. He lets sin go unpunished every day in this world, and has been for millennia. Also, what sin did the babies commit? The Israelites could have taken them in and raised them in the “True Religion” just like they took the 32,000 sexy virgins after slaughtering all the other men, women, and children (Num 31).
PRAYER: Yes, almost all believers claim that God answers their prayers. But when their claims are tested we find that there is no objectively verifiable evidence. And your comment indicates that you’ve never had the heart to pray for an amputee, or that you accept the odd fact that God will perform all sorts of miracles (like in the Benny Hinn $alvation and Healing Carnival) but refuses to heal amputees for his own “mysterious reasons.” But even if you were correct, it would only make the problem worse because that would mean that God really is interacting with the world in small, relatively insignificant ways (healing headaches, helping TBow win a football game) while totally ignoring massive suffering like the Haitian earthquake in which all the deaths of many Christians could have been avoided if he simply sent a prophet to tell them to get our of town for a day. Simply stated, the way the world works is proof enough that there is no God who intervenes in human affairs in any discernible way. If God has proven anything, it is that he is entirely untrustworthy if we rely on him for our daily needs. Case in point: God was perfectly willing to let people die by the millions until humans invented antibiotics. It seems pretty clear that we are on our own.
I will read the tract you wrote and comment more.
Thanks for taking time to work with me on this.
Richard
Thanks! I love homework.
That’s a very curious verse. Why would God want Adam and Eve to be ignorant of good and evil? And if they didn’t have any knowledge of good and evil, how could they have known it was wrong to disobey God? And if there was no death yet, how could they know what death was? And since they didn’t actually die in the day they ate of it, God’s statement was not literally true. And why does the rest of the Bible praise the acquisition of knowledge as one of the highest values if it begins with the Tree of Knowledge as the source of all problems? That one verse sure generates a lot of questions. Now you have some homework to do.
If that’s true, then I can’t trust it is true because it was written by a man and is found in a book produced by men. Dang. Logic can really mess with dogmas.
Don’t you realize that your entire faith is based on the opinions of fallible MEN who produced the Bible and the particular version of Christianity to which you adhere?
Very comforting to those who think they are being saved. Unfortunately, if is true it can’t have any meaning to those who are not already saved. So why preach it to me? If I’m saved, I would understand it and wouldn’t need to be reminded.
There’s that “perfection” word – the great bugaboo of Christian morality and metaphysics. Haven’t you noticed that there is nothing perfect in this world? Least of all our minds. Therefore, you can’t have perfect knowledge of anything, even your salvation. You could be deceived. I know I was.
The whole chapter? That’s too much homework for me right now. If I had to guess, I would think you were referring to verse 3 “And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
Googoo. Gaga! Hummm … maybe I’m not trying hard enough. Googoo! Gaga! Dang. I’m still the same, the gates of heaven didn’t open. Something must be wrong … like the fact that I must use my adult intellect to read and understand that verse? Yeah, that’s probably it.
Thanks for the interesting romp through a few Scriptures.
Hi Harold,
Your post is rather large and will take a little time to answer. It is easier to have long conversations over on my forum since the software is better. It’s free and easy to register if you fell so inclined.
All the best,
Richard
Hi Richard,
You can take this anyway that you wish, but as much as i try, I can’t get you out of my mind, heart and prayers. I hope that you might review the book of Job.
God bless you,
Trey
Hi Trey,
I take it as indicating that you are a sincere and caring man. Thanks.
I’ve thought a lot about the book of Job in the past. I had to write a whole section about it for the Bible Wheel book. I still think it fits with Spoke 18 in an amazing way (see here). But without the presupposition of the truth of Christianity it loses all the meaning I once saw in it. Remember, God gave no answer to Job at all. He basically said “I’m God, you’re not, so shut up and worship me.” I don’t think that’s really going to help.
Thanks for taking time to share you feelings. Please don’t hesitate if you feel led to comment more.
Richard
The whole chapter? That’s too much homework for me right now. If I had to guess, I would think you were referring to verse 3 “And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
“Googoo. Gaga! Hummm … maybe I’m not trying hard enough. Googoo! Gaga! Dang. I’m still the same, the gates of heaven didn’t open. Something must be wrong … like the fact that I must use my adult intellect to read and understand that verse? Yeah, that’s probably it.
Thanks for the interesting romp through a few Scriptures. ”
No, you err again, what is wrong is that you are an IDIOT. Now, if you liked the romp through the Scriptures, go and fetch this:
2 Peter 2:22
I love it! You are really exemplifying the true spirit of Christianity. I am a very reasonable man, and I have good reasons for the things I say. You, on the other hand, have nothing but hand-me-down dogmas and primitive superstitions that have been passed to you from ignorant people that thought the world was flat and had a dome over it!
You didn’t reply to any of my comments in an intelligent way, but chose only the one thing you thought you could use to justify your mindless assertion that I was an “idiot.” You have placed yourself outside rational discourse.
Don’t bother commenting anymore. You are just another example of how dogmatic religion tends to corrupt both the minds and the morals of those who adhere to it.
Your intellect is rubbish!
Now I understand why you avoid people who put you in your place. You are no match; you do well to avoid them.
I heard stress makes pigs lose weight; reading the Scriptures will be your diet from now on.
Ha! You think you have presented any intelligent challenge to me? What a joke.
I have never avoided an intelligent challenge to anything I’ve written.
You say my “intellect is rubbish” because you cannot present any intelligent response.
This will be the last post I approve from you unless you choose to present an intelligent response. That’s my challenge to you. Present an argument that deserves an answer, and I will answer.
As long as you side with satan, you’ll be on the losing team, ok.
I’m approving this comment to show the moral corruption and depth of delusion of Christians who think they have the “truth” and the “spirit of God.”
You become so soft, pure and moral when presented with the filth of your worthless intellect. Wake up and repent. Time is short.
I just had to approve this one because it’s so funny. “The time is short” – ha! Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, I remember now. I read it in the Bible which was written TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO!
Grow a brain dude. Folks have been falsely proclaiming that the “Jesus is coming soon” for 2000 years. They’ve always been wrong. That’s a perfect record of 100% error. But you can’t understand something so obvious because your mind has been corrupted by dogmas.
If you represent the winning team, I think I’ll take my chances.
You remind me of Charlie Sheen “WINNING!”
Sorry, I don’t know who Charlie Sheen is. I’m from Latin America. But in any case, don’t let satan blind you with the suppossed value of “human intellect” and the possibility of becoming like God through its exercise.
And, YES, thanks to the grace of God and His Son, Jesus Christ, I am on the winning team now. Through God’s power and the blood of Christ, I have obliterated satan. satan’s head has been crushed; nothing left.
Your anti-intellectualism makes a mockery of your claims to knowledge. You exemplify the essential error of dogmatic religion.
Without the “human intellect” you wouldn’t have the computer you use to spew your godless ignorance all over the planet.
You don’t know who Charlie Sheen is? I guess you’ve never heard of Google, eh? At least you are consistent in your rejection of the “human intellect.” You obviously have rejected yours.
Richard, you ask me if the reasons you gave for turning from Christianity make any sense. I can not say (on your behalf), but I can say that it really doesn’t make sense that someone who put so much time into the word of God, ends up so confused.
You keep saying that God allows this and that to happen. I think that we lose perspective of our life on earth, versus Heaven. Time as we know it is not universal. For God, our lives are a mere moment. I don’t think that your assumptions of God roaming the Earth watching everyone is correct.
But most importantly, it doesn’t jive to hear someone who studied -literally- each word from the Bible, say what you now say.
You are free to do so, but it doesn’t make sense to see you build this site, then flip and remain with your audience to blaspheme left and right.
The right thing -in my opinion- would be to offer a decent excuse and say so long and wish a good life to everyone.
Why maintain the website and go against what people come here to read?
Not a wise move Richard.
I know for a fact that everything Godly will be attacked, one way or another.
A swift movement has begun and it is perceivable in politics, the economy, the Law,even in the arts, entertainment, science. You name it.
People with firm beliefs do not need websites, speakers, preachers, writers, critics, teachers, etc to approve of God. Time will tell whether your questionable remarks have any foundation or if you simply didn’t have the necessary conviction and in fact turned from Christianity.
Someone on Youtube has been posting very popular videos where he questions God’s morality just like you have been doing now for some time.
My question to him and to you is simple;
He argues that God kills and that killing should be considered immoral because it causes pain and suffering to others while you also terminate their lives without their consent. Then, he goes on to say that Morality should be consistent with God’s Nature and he acts like “Oops!”… the Bible is loaded with instances where people die.
For one, we are not Gods, we are human and the Commandments instruct us not to harm each other. This Commandments, do not apply to God. If he gave us both a physical life and a Spiritual one, I believe he can decide to terminate it without your consent without committing murder. But then again, this guy in YT thinks he is God, he must know better.
What I am trying to say here Richard, is don’t make the mistake of judging God.
There are MANY mysteries we don’t even begin to grasp, which are very basic concepts of God’s nature. You have to fear him, respect him, honour him, love him, trust him and believe him as well. He will not disappoint anyone, on the contrary.
Like the guy in YT I ask you; If God gave you life and decides to terminate it, while giving you an eternal Spiritual one, where is the murder???
While his Kingdom is not of this world, I don’t believe he will answer prayers for mundane wishes, I think he will answer prayers of Spiritual nature specially like the Bible says, when two or more gather to pray.
Another curious example of what is going on in this world is what happened to Coast to Coast AM’s radio host (Art Bell), when he started asking people to use their powers by praying for the same thing in unison… are you familiar with the outcome of the experiments and his personal experiences during such time???
You are very close to witnessing what the Mayas expected for this 2012, which has nothing to do with the End of the World, but rather, with a huge change in Consciousness. After the events that we -as a society- are going to be experiencing soon, the collective consciousness will have to be modified. This world will soon not be the same -as we know it-, I hope you stick around and let us know what you think then.
I have read some of your replies to your followers and it seemed that you were mocking Scriptures. Ironically, you’ll be witnessing many prophecies in your own lifetime which should open your eyes and your heart to the truth.
While you are in total freedom to believe what you want, saying it out loud or publishing it where the opinions of others gets shaped, is a very touchy and different matter.
All I can say at this point is that God is the Word, the Bible as he commanded it written, must be a marvel which this Bible wheel -in my opinion- just barely begins to explore. I love the various concepts it brings about because I have always thought that with only 22 letters, God imprinted everything that is and that will be in a single book. This book, doesn’t only explain our origin and our future, our nature, our options, but I am sure that it also contains much more that we haven’t even got to understand -as of yet-.
If Man could device computer software based simply on a binary system of 0s and 1s, I am sure the source code of the Universe is in this 22 character creation of the Lord.
I would have loved to see you going in the direction of unveiling more toward that. Few people invest their time into anything that does not produce as an objective, MONEY. And yet, I think that not even all the money in this world, can buy you the entrance to Heaven.
There are more elevated things than money, much more important than power and fame. They are not material and we don’t really understand them.
I long for the day when we don’t live under the pressure of time and earthly worries and when we finally get access to the understanding of the wonderful significance of the Word of God.
I want to thank you because your Bible Wheel concept not only allowed me to confirm that other people also see more into Scripture than just words, but it also sparked new ideas; inspiration into its divine conception.
I pray so that you may be gifted with more insight into God’s true Nature which is all Love, all Intelligence, and all Purpose.
Hi Victor,
You wrote:
I don’t really know what you mean when you say that I am “so confused.” I don’t feel confused, and I’m not aware of anything I have written that would be deemed as “confused.” You will need to be a little more specific if you want me to understand what you are getting at.
It is not “my assumption” about God “roaming the Earth watching everyone.” On the contrary, that is the fundamental assertion of the Christian religion. The Bible constantly exhorts believers to trust God for everything in their life. If God is not paying attention and/or refuses to actually do anything, then the promises in the Bible cannot be trusted.
Could you please specify what I have said that was blasphemous? YOU are the person who has denied that God is “roaming the Earth watching everyone,” so it is you who is implicitly denying that the promises of the Bible can be trusted. If I have misunderstood your point, please correct me.
As for why I maintain the site – many folks have asked me to do just that, and I think it is important because I have presented a lot of information that no longer represents what I believe so I want to correct the record. I have been publicly proclaiming my beliefs for eleven years. I see no reason I should stop now. I think the real reason you say it is not “wise” is because you would prefer I was not doing it. I see no reason I should just take down the site without giving any explanation. And besides that, I enjoy the intellectual interaction. I think I am doing good in the world by helping free people from dogmatic religion which has very deleterious effects on the human mind.
There’s no need to wait for “time” to tell. You can judge the validity of my comments with your own intellect.
It appears you have not been paying close attention to what I have written. I have not written anything about things like the Flood where God himself has taken the lives of people. The real problem with the morality in the Bible is that God commanded his people to commit genocide which not only killed innocent babies, but also brutalize the Israelites by making them baby killers. God instituted laws for slavery. God inspired a Bible that is totally sexist from beginning to end. God acts like a “man of war” and filled his Bible with war from beginning to end. Therefore, the God presented in the Bible is not any kind of “moral standard” as far as I can tell.
Your argument that morality does not apply to God means that we cannot call God “good” or “righteous.” You have emptied those words of any meaning.
You are judging God when you say he is good and righteous, else your words are empty.
Then all the promises of the Bible that say we should trust God for all our needs in this life are vain and false. And if we can’t trust God to actually answer any prayers that can be verified, why should we trust that he would answer “spiritual prayers” for things like salvation?
Yes, but that is not proof of God at all. At best, it is evidence that there is a spiritual power in people independent of the God of Christian theism.
Your comment totally confuses me. It is not what I would expect from a Christian.
I was mocking the person who was explicitly rejecting the “human intellect.” I don’t need to mock the Scriptures, Christians do a fine job of that on their own.
What prophecies are you referring to? If I had to guess, I would say it is the foundation of the secular state of Israel in 1948. If so, then you should know that event has encouraged more ridiculous and erroneous date setting than anything that has ever happened. And they’ve all been wrong, just like all date setters for the last 2000 years.
You really shouldn’t bring up “fulfilled prophecy” as a reason for me to “believe.” No field of study is more ludicrous and filled with error. Indeed, it is eschatology that helped free me from my false beliefs in the Bible. Countless Christians came to my forum pushing their own idiosyncratic interpretations until I finally realized that they were all not only wrong, but nuts and totally disinterested in the truth.
That’s exactly correct. And since I have been very publicly proclaiming the truth of the Bible for over a decade, I owe it to my fellow man to very publicly correct the record. And besides, if I am wrong, my errors should only strengthen the faith of believers as they witness spirit filled Christians trashing my weak arguments and making me look like a fool. Of course, we both know that’s not what’s been happening.
The evidence for the Bible Wheel still stands. That’s another reason I leave the site up. It is a profound mystery how a book with as many errors as the Bible could have such an amazing pattern embedded in it. I used to think the pattern was demonstrably perfect because no rearrangement of the books could improve upon it. But then Rose mentioned that it was as perfect as I thought, because God could have written much better books to use in the pattern. I had to admit she was correct. The Bible Wheel is only optimal GIVEN the 66 books. But those books could be much improved.
I find it amusing that Christians get upset when I speak the truth about the Bible. It’s so ironic! If the Bible really is God’s book, then it should be received as given. But no, Christians don’t do that. They try to fix it to conform to their man-made doctrine of “inerrancy” and so make God look like a fool when they use their weak minds to try to “fix” his book. It’s really pathetic, and a strong proof that they are wrong.
Thank you. But I must also say that you have stated the reason I MUST continue to speak publicly about my beliefs. I would be guilty of spreading deception if I let people think that the Bible Wheel confirms their own small-minded interpretation of the Bible. In effect, I would be empowering their delusions. I am not willing to do that.
Thank you. I appreciate the time and effort you put in to your comments. It would be better though if you tried to address some of the issues that I have actually written about, and the reasons I gave for my conclusions.
All the very best,
Richard
Written by William on May 2, 2012: “Through God’s power and the blood of Christ, I have obliterated satan. satan’s head has been crushed; nothing left.”
Typical, unenlightened pseudo-Christian EVIL!
Nearly all proclaimed “Christians” nurture their delusional beliefs about the Master Jesus rather than actually STUDY & PRACTICE what he taught.
Does it not say in Luke 6:27-28
[27] “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.”
Most of these FOOLS calling themselves Christians can’t seem to comprehend that God would be a psychopath if he demanded of us what he himself is not willing to do. If we are instructed to love our enemies (which takes STRENGTH & WISDOM) then doesn’t it make sense that God does the same…and perfectly?!
No, FOOLISH ‘CHRISTIAN’…you don’t CRUSH your enemy’s head…you don’t obliterate him…the instructions are to GET OVER YOUR MORONIC EGO & start learning how to LOVE, LOVE, LOVE…with NO conditions!!!
You, and most of your fellow ‘Christians’ better get started on the task. It takes a long time of consistent effort to achieve such an exalted level of SELF-MASTERY, and GOD KNOWS how far most of you are from it! History is proof of that.
Good luck to all of you!
Much Peace & Many Blessings!
Hello Richard,
Thanks for the invitation. ‘ll think about it. Small question for now, that can easily be answered here.
Just curious.. ~ though very likely won’t be ‘telling you any news’ ~..but just like to know:
imagine yourself in the first century..
and you have been witnessing for a while what is going on..[people get healed, etc;]
Could you describe me (if you picture yourself in the scene) how you would feel /react if the “Son of man” would (- just like with Zachaeuss -) pass by, call you by your name, and accordingly would invite Himself for a dinner at your place.. ; `please: do not react ‘to soon’ and ‘from your mind’; but first really place yourself (100%) in the scene as you – deep down – really are; without the ‘baggage’; with a pure unbiased (childlike) heart..
..
[..As for now..: I ‘d rather – ~>if you feel inclined to – like to continue the conversation via e-mail..] Very best wishes, Harold
Hi Harold,
Your question contains an implicit assumption that the Bible is true. But if that were the case, then I wouldn’t have reason to reject it.
Now to answer your question, if those events did happen and Christ really was the Messiah who went about doing miracles like the Bible says, then I almost certainly would have believed and followed him just as I did when I thought I had good evidence for the truth of the Bible.
Thanks for the interesting question,
Richard
I really appreciate your candor and your courageous willingness to let the truth take you wherever it leads. If it means anything, I apologize for the comments here from people who (I assume) are my fellow Christians who are trying to bully you or shame you or scare you back into the fold.
Hi Phil,
Thanks for the kind words. They are very meaningful to me.
Most Christians who comment here are pretty reasonable and understand that I am speaking from the authenticity of my heart and mind. But fundamentalism causes some pretty ugly behavior, whether it be of the Christian, Muslim, or even political variety. I try to find a way to have a mutually respectful conversation with all people, but fundamentalists don’t really want two way communication between equals. They want converts who will mindlessly obey their dogmas.
All the very best to you,
Richard
Hi Richard,
I have quite a bit more I could add to your list of material to digest — so much that it is probably best broken down into “digestable chunks”. My plan is to start with a couple of “easy contradictions”, ie bible contradictions that can be easily explained, and gradually work my way through the background to some Bible stories and characters, with the end goal being to work those stories through to explaining the horrors of Numbers 31.
Those “topics/characters along the way” will include consciousness & the guru, the ancient Middle East A-list and the best educated chick on the planet, the former beauty queen living as a beggar, sex on “the Love Boat”, Jesus having an “off day” with His prophecy, “ET” (no not the Spielberg version), a baby girl sold off / adopted out by her grandfather, a slightly hilarious conversation between God and Elijah, and the Periodic Table.
But before I get into all that, I thought I would start with a couple of comments:
One of the themes under the list of topics I will work through, is that (very much so), God expects us to use our minds when we read the Bible. That becomes apparent very early on – and heavily so as soon as we reach the Garden of Eden story. The Sunday School version might seem simple, but as soon as we start asking why there was a devil running loose in a place that was supposed to be perfect, we realise that there is way more in the story than western society gives it credit for, We were meant to THINK, and think very deeply when reading that story.
What you are doing now, questioning, and reasoning through what you have learned, trying to resolve the conflict between the supernatural structure you found in the Bible and the moral ambiguities and contradictions you see in it, can bring you closer to God than blindly listening to sermons from a pulpit. So best wishes on your search, and for your being insulated from the barbs and insults hurled your way by “the devout”.
You concluded that most prayers do not appear to be answered – which , I believe, jives with what many of us have experienced. But, I presume your experience is also, like mine, that SOME prayers do appear to be answered.
If we can find ways to lift the percentage of answered prayers, whether it is from 1% to 5%, or from 5% to 10%, or 10% to 20% etc, we can ease / take away a lot of the suffering in this world, and make it a much better place to live – so again, best wishes pn your quest, and thankyou for devoting the time to your website, and answering the many comments that come in on it – often with more patience and courtesy than some of the comments deserve.
I will add some comments about the “easy contradictions” in the next reply I post.
Regards,
Peter
Hi Peter,
You wrote:
I totally agree that we should use our minds when reading the Bible. And the Garden story is a great place to start because it only takes a little thought to realize that the normal interpretations are filled with holes.
I would agree completely if the God of the Bible were the true God. But there seems to be many reasons to reject that idea. And even if true, then by the time I finish reading the Bible and thinking for myself, I will find I have a unique religion all of my own. I’m not really interested in that. Unless, of course, that’s the real purpose of the Bible – to guide people to invent their own religions. But if that’s the case, then there are no moral compulsions about heaven and hell and all that, so I think I would be inclined just to make up my own religion out of whole cloth. Building fresh is almost always better than remodeling.
Yes indeed. But now that I reflect on them I see there could be other, more likely, explanations like synchronicity and/or tuning into the Cosmic Mind. The problem with prayer is that it is based on the assumption of THEISM – that’s what I find unbelievable.
Great! I look forward to our continued conversation.
But for the record, it would go better over on my forum where the software is more suited to long involved conversations. So I invite you to register and continue the conversation there.
https://www.biblewheel.com/forum/forum.php
All the best,
Richard
Richard
I am a person that was created by God.. which learned about the path of intiiation which is very real.. When I reached the higher levels of light – your website came across to me.. The most amazing thing is in my soul adventures God had shown me the spokes 1 by 1 from exactly what you wrote.. When I took the 22 initiation The TAV really made sense – and I no longer needed this information because life just expanded. I can see God is spokes of all wheels and not just one. The hindus, the buddhists, the muslims all have equal spokes to reach to God. learn all to become all. You had the pages of enlightment and I thank you.. One day soon, the world is going to see the masters come back this is what we are training right now as we speak, but your word was valid, just it expands just like consciousness does. Amen to you. Check out IAMUNIVERSITY and read the courses and maybe one day Lord Buddha and Shamballa will come to you and you will become an Ascended masters to transform this planet. All you need is the eyes to see and ears to hear!
Hi Richard,
I will sign up on the forum, and hopefully get something posted before the weekend is over (already halfway through on this side of the Pacific),
Regards & שלמ,
Peter
Great! I look forward to our conversations.
Hello Richard,
Ok. Different setting. Imagine: you are a judge. and am a witness of e.g. a car accident on a cross-roads. (=>saw the accident from an eastern point of view). Other witnesses viewed it from the north, south, and the west-side of the scene..)
All the four of us tell you the very same story, the truth: ” a red car, high speed etc ” (..why would we be not be telling the truth..?)
…
Think any judge, [even if some details would maybe slightly differ or even contradict (~>none of us is infallible and has perfect memory)] would – still- be very happy with four times “a red car – high speed..etc ”
[~ If all them declare in essence the same, then there is not any logical reason to assume that even one of them would be lying; ~ or you being hindered by doubts in your verdict. (especially if all the witnesses are known as ‘normal/respectable people’ ]
Harold
ps:
If you would seriously doubt me telling the truth, how do you think I would feel.., as a sincere witness..?
[NB:still the very essence of (at least 1st century) Christianity:
disciples rather died, than deny.. /lie. (~>after they truly had received the Holy Spirit).
31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
(~>Mat.12:31-32)
Dear Brother,
We have to learn to see with new eyes!? “Be transformed by the renewing of your mind”
Is it not written “study to show thy self approved unto God”? Not Man?
Does the Word (Jesus) not tell us “be wise as serpents and harmless as doves”?
If you go back and you study “diligently” you will discover that the people God commanded to be destroyed came from lineages that committed great offenses either against natural laws (homosexuality, or sex w/ animals, or sex w/ angels cast out,etc.), or idolatry (sacrificing children by fire, etc.), or they committed offenses against Abraham’s family/ Israel which would have corrupted them or they (Amalek=Amalekities) sought to destroy them Exodus 17:3-*8,9-16; Deuteronomy 25:17-19! God’s Word is not preached from mans intelligent or eloquent speech, but by the power of God’s Spirit within us. Baptism by fire (the Holy Spirit) is to remove all impurities and present us as Gold purified 7 times by the Word in God’s refinery!
A quote from a web page from a quick google search for “nations God commanded to be destroyed and why?”
The Canaanites: How Could a Just God Command His People to Destroy an Entire Nation?
“THE CANAANITES- Degenerates Some find it hard to understand why God would use Israel as his instrument to annihilate an entire race of people like the Canaanites. Why did he? The answer is simply this. The nations which Israel destroyed had degenerated dramatically. In fact, archaeologists have given us a glimpse of how evil the inhabitants of Palestine had actually become. They were involved in bestiality, incest, molestation, homosexuality, prostitution — and if that’s not enough, they even sacrificed their children to idols. In fact, the entire land had become so contaminated that God, who truly sees the big picture, decided for the good of mankind that they had to be destroyed.THE CANAANITES- No Argument from Ignorance And let’s not forget that the Canaanites and Amelikites couldn’t claim they didn’t know any better. They were fully aware that God had chosen Israel to be a tool in His hands in bringing judgement to the nations.THE CANAANITES- God’s Justness in Perspective It’s clear from history, God gave them ample time to repent, but they refused (Gen. 15:16; Deut. 7:22). And as a consequence, God used Israel to bring judgement upon them. And lest anyone accuse God of being unfair, there is ample Biblical evidence that if there were any righteous in the land, God would have spared them just like He spared Rahab when Jericho was destroyed (Josh. 6:25 df. Gen. 18:22f; Num. 31:35).”
By: CRI 2009/ Hank Hanegraaff
Link: http://equip.org/perspectives/the-canaanites-how-could-a-just-god-command-his-people-to-destroy-an-entire-nation/
study aids: download “E-Sword” & KJV+ (shows Strong’s ref. # for every word), Books: “Meredith’s Book of Bible List”, *Dress To Kill* By:Rick Renner (put on the whole Armor of God, our fight is not against flesh and blood but spiritual wickedness in high places…!!!), *In Pursuit of Purpose* By: Myles Monroe.
Remember to SEEK God first in all that you seek to accomplish! Proverbs 3:5-15!!!
The Concepts revealed in the Wheel have been of great assistance to me, and I pray this will be of great assistance to you. May God Bless you and lift you up Brother!
you little one you were on the right path. O how much you have helped me. now please listen to me, there are many things in the bible that are hard to understand. carnal men twist and distort those things. they think they have the mind to comprehend the parables and similitudes and dissimilar similitudes that God has given us. now human logic that does not know God will call me insane and my ways weird but you should very well know that YAH is called “Father” not in vain, but he is called by that name so that we may search more deeply into what YAH has said. now a father is one who would never throw his children in eternal torments and would never delete his own children. now what about the things spoken about that speak of eternal hell and torments? they are parables and ect ect. but people don’t want to admit that they don’t understand what the word “vision” means. and they apply all kinds of wicked thoughts to the character of God and judge God was wicked and so they themselves become blinded to the Truth.
but God lets you see the things that appear to not be within his character for many reasons, one being that you must see that the word of God is deep and truly written by YAH. the word of God is a very complex and divine work that is not like mens works. only God is good, remember that. we look at the words of God and think we understand their meaning and yet we see all kinds of wick things done in them that do not align up with the character and nature of God. it is because we do not comprehend what God is saying. I suggest you read the works of true followers of God such as Origen who devoted his entire life to clinging to God.
and as for prayer not working, this you should know not to be true at all! please my dear brother, abandon human reasoning and logic, because God can not be contained therein. but if you keep searching out God then you will see the unity of the scriptures even more, and origen really helped me to see that the words of the bible are form God who is only good, and not men who judge wrongly that god is evil. do not let the seeming contradictions or the seeming evils done in the bible detract you from jesus Christ, who never threw a stone at any man. and so I say, we men do not comprehend the words of God, but Jesus did, and he never hurt anyone. so too is Father this way, but his light is hidden in narratives and ect ect. if you would just read origen and not judge him, you would quickly see that most people do not comprehend that god is love, but apply such wicked things to him that should be applied to the devil himself instead.
http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/
Visit this site and get your answers, no charge if you read online – Stephen Jones will respond to you if you write to him…Jane
Dude,
Are you kidding me…
Your going to believe the big bang theory?
That has more holes in it than the hard sayings in the scripture!
Shalom!
I’m new on this site, only one other post on your main topic of deconversion.
But your statement that Yahweh isn’t God, based on his bad behavior in the OT supposes that the same God who historically led his people out of Egyptian slavery (no small feat), and enabled them to totally conquer all nations they wiped out or relocated in the new land that they conquered, and raised them up to become the wealthiest nation in existence within a few centuries is hit and miss concerning his direction, purpose, or wisdom!
Every nation that God had wiped out was in rejection of him, and chose Idol worship, and substitutes instead of worshipping the one true God, whom God knew was himself. And most of them instituted sacrifice of human life and/or goods, foodstuffs and water that could have been used to helf relieve their own poor!
To show that even his lawful commandments (harsh as they were in judgement and penalties) wouldn’t work in maintaining a relationship with him, because of the fallen nature of mankind, and therefore establish the need for a saviour (predestined before time itself); God used the process of war.
And for the purpose of establishing sanctification initially in the very people who would later fail him, he eliminated all prospects of contamination.
When we clearly understand God’s purpose is simply to provide for himself a family to live with him forever, and his standards for this (now clarified to be a walk of love with your fellow man, and even praying for your enemies); who are we to say that he was wrong to condemn them to death at the time when they were in rebellion to his purposes?
In his mind; they are eternally lost anyway by their poor choice, and therefore they are refuse (chaff for the fire)!
In all the wars ever fought, and all the reasons for them, I personally compute the loss of life as tragic, and I cringe when I think that under other circumstances I, or my family could be victims, but death isn’t the scariest thought in my mind.
The thought of missing spending eternity with the God who has supernaturally changed my life and direction, answered numeorus prayers, and has proven unconditional love for me is more than I want to bear.
But that doesn’t exclude God from the right to work disobedience to the favor of His divine direction or provision, and well being of his chosen people.
When you said elswhere that God doesn’t answer prayer, you proved out that you personally didn’t come to the place of meeting the requirement of prayer..childlike faith! Simply believing God loves you enough to answer you just out of his love!
Many who have stepped away from christian faith have done so because either they..
1. only found religion (shallow, ritualistic, sacrificial, and legalistic; judgemental, faultfinding, supreme feeling.. but dead as a doornail), without finding the love relationship with the Father, and the true fellowship of christians generally concerned for their well being; or
2. because they were hurt or offended by the people in the church (many of which are at varying levels of growth, and have little love to offer, because they’ve not been yet freed of baby christian religion); or
3. because their reason for approaching God in the first place is because they were hurting and either need a mother (to kiss the booboo’s) or Santa Clause (to bring them all the presents on their wish list);or
4. They came in with such a strong mental capacity (genious IQ, strong intellectual) that they presupposed that they could figure it all out using their natural mental talents and abilities.
The Lord promises he will not deny a broken (bankrupt,out of order, beaten)
heart and a contrite spirit (one who is remorseful of wrong, repentant).
In other words: when a person has come to the place where they are sorry for their wrong choices in life, and see the ruin it created for them, and are genuinely sorry to the point where they are now ready to abandon their own way of thinking for God’s way of thinking.. Then they are candidate for the help of God which includes answered prayer.
If I took the time to tell you all the lessons I learned, and all the times my own christian walk was empty, and producing no results.. It would be another book. But through it all God loved me and didn’t give up on me, and (sometimes a long time afterward) fixed my messes, and then moved me back to blessings and answered prayers, and a relationship where he actually talks to me in my mind, and confirms in my heart!
Hi Earl,
I noticed you comments on my new blog too. It would be much better if we could conduct our conversation there. So could you copy your comment and paste it in the comment section of this article on my new homepage? That software is MUCH better for a long and detailed conversation. We can use quotes, highlights, smilies, and even Hebrew! If you would be so kind as to do that, I will reply as soon as possible (rather busy today).
All the best,
Richard
Mike,
Are you a astrophysicist? If not, why do you feel qualified to tell thousands of scientists that they are all fools?
I would love to discuss this with you over on my new blog. The software is much better there. Just go to my homepage and you can comment there.
Thanks!
Hi Jane,
Many folks have suggested I read Stephen Jones’ material. It seems we might have a fair amount of agreement on a number of issues.
Thanks for the tip. If you want to comment more, please visit my homepage at
https://www.biblewheel.com
The new software is much better for long detailed conversations.
All the best!
Richard
Hi again Richard,
Which came first.. the chicken or the egg?
The egg answer is based on what>> Who laid it?
If the chicken answer is used.. Where did it come from?
Really the question is evolution or creation!
Remove God and the supernatural, and you have evolution, but that still don’t answer the real question; which should actually be..
Where did the chicken or the egg (whichever one was first) come from!
Ah! Now we have a true premise for scientific investigation!!!
Let’s take it back to the beginning. If creation is not true, and evolution is true; then.. What was the catalyst that started it all?
If it was a star that exploded, or imploded the where did that come from? Another galaxy? Where did that galaxy get it’s original explosion from, another star? Let’s take all that back to the very first whatever in the beginning of the universe.
Where did the whatever come from? IF EVOLUTION IS TRUE.. What was the catalyst that started the existence of a universe filled with galaxies, that generated the event which lead to our galaxy (the milky way galaxy), and flourished on down to our solar system, and generated our world from which life (in millions of years) evolved into humankind and all the other species that thrive on our planet?
What started that?, and where did the thing that made what started that come from? Ask the question a million and one times and you still come back to this fact.. IN THE BEGINNING there was either a creator of the very first thing that started all the wonders of the universe, and structured it to his/hers or whatever’s liking.. OR there was NOTHING!
Scientific fact is you can’t get nothing from nothing!! So that brings us back to the only logical conclusion!
Some kind of something more glorious than you or I could ever imagine got the whole ball of wax going. And I submit to you that a being with that kind of creative power and ability most definitely fits our modern definition (as well as ancient definitions) of what is considered to be a God!
Even the best story tellers can’t come up with a God even close to that kind of greatness.. But religion (the search for understanding of this being) can? I doubt that!
I’m switching gears for a moment to another issue of which came first.
A man has 2 paintings for sell, they seem to be identical to each other. One is the original painting done by a now disceased artist, and the other a forgery, but identical replica of the original; worth far less. Another rhetorical question: How do we establish which one is the original?
Answer: The original can be established by testing the paper and paints used, to see which is the oldest.
In religion; the best way to test for truth is to determine the oldest.
Since you yourself are in agreement that the Hebrew language is the original (at least I conclude this by the way you’re presenting books about the supernatural value of the hebrew alphabet); then It should follow to reason that the Semite language was the first!
In fact; scientists are in agreement to this! But what is cleverly hidden by the term semite (coined at the turn of the 19th century) is a derivative of the Greek name “Sem” which is the greek rendition of the name “Shem” who scripturally is one of the sons of Noah!
The first language known to mankind who winded up from this universe, all the way down to our planet earth was passed on BEGINNING at the Boat.. the flood! (This fits what Moses wrote in scripture, but there is a lot of unbelief about a flood, yet.. SHEM’s language was first).
Steven Hawking (a well known theoretical physicist, cosmologist) says “We believe we have the creation of the universe worked out down to within a split second of it’s origin. We believe it was started by pure energy.”
The purest form of energy is light, and the 1st book of the word of God; written by Moses (an ancient who didn’t have our scientific knowledge) says God (which defines this creative being I spoke of earlier) said let there be light!
There is a deeper scientific understanding today about the atom. When Darwin , wrote his book that birthed the theory of evolution; he operated on the limited knowledge that the atom was a mall blob of matter, with the nucleus as a blob within the blob.
Pictures I saw of the atom as a child resembled a small egg, with a pea inside of it.
Today, thanks to increased technology, we are told that the complexity of an atom is to be compared to 4 city blocks of factories that produce high end electronics!
And there is even a scientific speculation that the nucleus of the atom, it is being theoreticall reported that the catalyst (nucleus) is sound waves!
Moses also said this God spoke the light into existence, and all things were created beginning with this (sound wave) command!
SO WHATS MY POINT? The word of God (bible) is accurate historically, scientifically and spiritually! It also proved itself out through the years prophetically!!!
When Jesus was on the cross and said, “Father why have you forsaken me?” he wasn’t whineing, he was quoting the start of the passage of scripture in Psalms 22 where it prophesied exactly what he would go through.. right down to them casting lots for his garment(verse 18), and piercing his hands and feet (in verse 16); hundreds of years before what was now occurring before the eyes of the people he was dying for!
And Daniel accurately prophesied future coming kingdoms; and the book of revelation prophesied the end time coming of a one world government; and although we’re not there yet, it’s being talked about by our government officials, and we’re already locked into the one world economy!
In 1998 Germany (who we bailed out of debt) purchased America’s largest bank, and then the next year it was stated that 11 nations (the beast with the 10 horns.. let him who reads understand) came together under the EURO!
And guess who was one of the original nations to sign on with the euro? GERMANY!!! And the American dollar has been devalued ever since! We’re already in the euro!
Man.. the word of God is true, and flawless in it’s record of God’s dealing with man; no matter how you could judge those dealings.. scripture recorded the good, bad and ugly! And even further scripture prophesied the good, bad and ugly to come, including hell fire for those who reject the living God.
You’re attacking a book far greater than you are; inspired and dictated to writers by an author far greater than you are.. in the vain attempt to justify your own failure to stay committed to christianity.
This is possibly due to divorce, and some legalist telling you that you don’t get another chance! Maybe it was something else, but since this first comes to my mind.. I’m going with the hunch!!!
If I’m correct, I just want to finish with the fact that the Law wasn’t written to lock us into past mistakes, but as a remedy of restoration to relationship with God. And Jesus overrode the law by taking all the penalties himself.
Jesus is the restorer of the breach.. accept forgiveness move an and rebuild without the law, and learn to love again.. God first and then you can love yourself, and then you will be able to love others as you love yourself.
If you continue in your present state you will become mentally more bitter, physically unhealthy, and emotionally unstable.
I suggest you give up your running from that voice of conscience inside of you that rises up from time to time to lovingly invite you into admitting you are wrong, and turn around! Come back to the Father who will demonstrate his love once you have fallen in love with his word enough to know whos saying what inside your head!
God can, and will use the talent he has given you for rhetoric for his purposes, instead of you using it to tear him and his word down in your vain attempt to make yourself feel better in a backslidden state of being.
I’ve been there, and I remember how I was always miserably divided in my own gut, and how unhappy I was on the inside, while I was raging on God, and pretending to have it all together on the outside!
When you asked Jesus to be Lord.. HE meant it! So you will NEVER be happy on the run from that commitment. Keep trying and you’ll see!
I’ll be praying for you (maybe not by name, but grouped into all those who are running away from the God they once tried to draw close to), and hope you find your way back in time not to make too many eternal victims with the poison of your hurt.
Earl
Hi Earl,
It would be great if you copied and pasted your comments to my article posted on the home page http://www.biblewheel.com since the software there is better for long and detailed conversations.
Thanks!
Richard
Hello Richard, I maintain a Bible blog at my website, tosinsbibleblog.com where I am translating an open copy of the New Testament and also write on topical issues, especially controversial ones. I stumbled acoss your blog while doing research for this website. I am a born again Christian, and I believe my persuasion is similar to the one you describe that you used to have.
I intend to address the three main points you present for why you quit Christianity, but permit me if I may to explain why I am happy I came across your site.
In my researching I have come across sites that are very pro-Christianity and some that are very anti-Christian. I have come across sites written by people who used to be Christian but who have now decidedly rejected their faith. However, yours is the first site that I have come across that have crossed the spectrum from faith to rejection of faith within the life of the blog – and I have to admit that that strikes me very deeply. (Other post-Christian blogs were started after the “deconversions”, to use your term.) I hope you will forgive me for using your account of your deconversion to affirm my own faith, but I feel almost as if the Spirit of God in a way led me to this site. Like with many people who work for God in some way or the other, I have been so busy with translating the Bible, supporting myself financially, exploring ambitious projects etc -that I have felt a very obvious cooling in my own intimacy with God that has now ranged for months – or even years. However I am currently trying to take some time out to get deeper with God -and it just so happened that I came across your site. It is as if God is telling me that I SERIOUSLY need to get back into genuine intimacy with Him, and that I can no longer afford to make excuses to myself. So that is why I am happy that I have come across your site.
Now, to address the main reasons that you said you quit the faith: firstly, I will agree with you that while I utterly believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible as the Word of God, there are many things that seem absurd or contradictory. Pragmatically speaking, the way I handle these is that where these things can be attributed to miracles – then I attribute them to miracles; where they concern seeming doctrinal inconsistencies, then I attribute these to contextual requirements, and where they concern seemingly factual contradictions – I tend to shrug my shoulders and ignore the fact that there are inconsistencies, figuring out that at the very worst, the perfect word of God has been handed down to us imperfectly. That may sound like a cop-out, or it may seem as if it would prove the point of post-Christians and other non-believers. However, to me the Word of God, the truth of God, the teachings of Christ are like a towering sculpture, and these inconsistencies are like a few seemingly scuffed parts on the edges. The truth of the Bible and its teachings is still so overwhelming and resounding that I can overlook a few inconsistencies, and even trust that they will be resolved. (As a Bible translator, I have also found that a few inconsistencies were due to Bible translation – like “It is shameful for women to talk in church” – the actual Greek says “It is shameful for women to *chat* in church”. Similarly “I do not permit a woman to have authority over a man”. I believe that a better and more correct translation would be “I do not permit a wife to have authority over her husband” – in Greek the word for woman was the same as the word for wife, and similary the word for husband was the same as the word for man.)
Now onto your 3 specific points. Please note that these are not based on the thinkings or writings of Biblical scholars or theologians past or present, but are mainly due to my own thinkings and considerations. They could very well be wrong, or there could be gaping holes in my reasoning – I will not be at all offended if these are pointed out.
1. HELL.
Hell was never intended for humans. Rev. 20.10 tells us that the Lake of Fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. However, when humanity fell at the Garden of Eden, then human beings by default fell under the authority of the devil. The devil had the right to claim us to “enjoy” his punishment with him. God sent Jesus at great expense to redeem us from an inevitable fate, so that this would not happen. This is why John 3.16 states that if anyone believes in Him (Jesus) they might not perish – because if Jesus had not come then we would not have a choice. So Hell is the default destination, Jesus is the wonderful rescue package. If you reject God’s expensive and lavish declaration of love, then there is absolutely no other way that you could be redeemed from this inevitable fate. What other package could God offer? This is why it had been prefigured so many times for so long throughout the Old Testament. It is magnificent. It is incomparable. It is the only possibility for our rescue. So it is not that God condemns people for failing to believe in Jesus. It is that we are ALLalready condemned – but Jesus is the one rescue package that could redeem us from an otherwise inevitable fate.
2. MORAL “ABOMINATIONS” COMMITTED BY GOD
Errors, contradictions, logical absurdities – as discussed above. Moral abominations written by God: I have written a blog post on my website dealing with the fact that God ordered mass killings in some parts of the Old Testament. This blog post is called “The Love of God and Genocide” I will summarise the main points here:
God loves us, yes. However, to Him we are comparatively less significant than flies, or rats are to human beings. How many of us have killed even “innocent” flies, or small animals such as rats without the slightest qualms whatsoever? None of us has ever created as much as a single cell of life. And yet God created all of us. If we can kill living creatures that we did not create, that we could never hope to create, then how much more can God act just how He wishes towards His own creation? How many of us have “destroyed” our own blog posts – deleted our own creation? If there is a difference between human beings as divine creations and blog posts as human creations, it is actually because of God Himself – because HE made us in His own image, HE endowed us with feelings, HE created us to have worth; it is precisely because of what HE has given us that it causes a sense of outrage that humans could be wilfully killed – even at the command of the God who created them.
I do on my post describe the reason why I believe God ordered these killings. On reading the Old Testament passages, I now see that it is overly simplistic to say that it is because of the sin committed by the civilisations which He ordered to be destroyed. I intend to update this post with more Biblically accurate reasoning. In the meantime, the paragraph above still stands, and so do other points made on the post.
3. PRAYERS
I have personally received countless answers to prayers. However, I have also experienced many devastating times when prayers were emphatically not answered, at least not in the ways that I asked for. By the grace of God I have persevered in God and in prayer, and over time I have come to understand that : prayer is not primarily about asking for “things” and seeing them granted. There is absolutely wrong with this kind of prayer; it is totally biblical and endorsed by Jesus Himself in Luke 18, the parable of the persistent widow. However, I have come to understand that prayer in its most essential form is about intimacy with God, spending time with our minds and hearts submitted to His word, His truth, His presence, and, crucially, crying out for the mind of Christ and the character of Christ. In my experience this kind of prayer is always answered. But that does not mean that I instantly become like Jesus. It is a gradual process of being shaped day by day; learning lessons, making mistakes – sometimes making the same mistakes over and over; sometimes stubborn holding on to certain attitudes; learning to want the heart of Christ etc. As it is with this kind of prayer, so I have also discovered that in making requests of God prayers can be “cumulative”, and bigger things require more prayer! Once again, just like in Luke 18 Jesus tells us to pray over and over until our requests get answered – it is not always that we pray once, and then the answer arrives. In fact, in my experience it is almost never like that -except for when I’m looking for my keys, and I shoot up a quick prayer – and then the next instant my eyes alight on said keys in a highly improbable location – these kind of prayers account for probably 50% of my prayers, and while they don’t get answered all the time either, I can confidently state that in at least 50% of cases, they do get answered, within a minute of making the prayers.
We have to remember that God answers things in accordance with His will and His character, which is love and world salvation. Also, some prayers are necessarily timebound – so if we do not offer up “enough” prayer within the necessary time frame, then it seems as if the prayer goes unanswered. How much prayer is “enough”? Well it depends on what the request is, on our relationship with God, on the confidence with which we make the prayers. Another thing with prayer is that while I am just trying to spend time with God, the Spirit of God will reveal aspects of my own life to me, drop ideas, grant me some mindblowing understanding – just like today when I read your blog. To everyone reading this I can assure you; prayer works, Jesus is real, and God is good. The end 😉
Hi Tosin,
Thank you for taking the time to share your insights. I really appreciate it. But it would really help if you could take a minute and copy and paste your comment into my new blog since the new software is much better for long and detailed conversations. I have copied this post to the new blog, so you only need to click here and paste your comment in the comment box and I will answer. I am intending to direct all comments to my new blog soon.
Thanks again!
Richard
Why are you mocking these people? You claim to be a nice guy further down in the comments, yet you mock them for questioning your betrayal?
What an utter hypocrite you are McGough, if you were here I would punch you in the face for being such a douchebag.
If being a douchebag hypocrite is intellectualism, then you can have your tommyrot. Because that’s what you represent douchebag hypocrisy.
Hi Antisocialist,
First, could you please specify which comments you found offensive? Otherwise, I won’t know what you are talking about.
Second, how can you think you can condemn me when you are calling names and making threats of violence? Don’t you see that you are a textbook example of the hypocrisy you accuse me of?
Richard
PS: Fitting name you chose for yourself! Though simply “Antisocial” would probably have been better.
Maybe you quit Christianity because you failed to see that other gods exist. I believe the Bible was put together by God bc He allowed it that way. The fact that its a mandala and your study of they became scrolls is fact that a higher entity put it together. But all entities are under Gods reign. God did put the bible together as it is now bc maybe we aren’t yet ready to accept the truth about the fallen angels and the nephilim.
They could very easily have put it together bc God allowed it that way. Hence bible codes mandala etc.
But its not to say that the book of which and the hook of jadher arenr true either.
I’ve always said, why would God and how could God possibly.explain creation to a caveman. He can’t. Hence the simple truth of one day He did this another He did that.
But again 1000 years are a day and a day a thousand years.
So evolution is probably true. So is Atlantis. Who knows what happened from creation til now.
Because I see in the Spirit, I know it up be true that salt water creatures were fallen angels that got punished, probably the atlanteans.
I wouldn’t give up on Christianity and Jesus if I were you. But I would consider that God isn’t going to tell us everything. The fact that Jesus is love and the fact that people know and feel that love
is enough. Because onceyou know love you know live and you can’t turn your back on it.
I’m going to pray that His open your eyes to new revelations about Him and who He is. And I bet you anything that you’re going to bring about some new discovery to encourage us again.
Thanks for the research you’ve done now. I’m going to check out the bible reading plan.
And I follow you on Twitter. @delightedinme So keep us updated on where God is taking you.
Just bc you decided to leave Christianity doesn’t mean He’s left you or not going to use your time off and the new experiences and knowledge youve gained.
Love you dude.
Eunice Kwon
Oops…. Phone typo. I meant the book of jasher and the nephilum.
Hope you got that.
Be of Good Cheer!
I have but a few words regarding the faith which has left you.
The Hope in the Wisdom you received and shared kindled your Faith.
Where was your turn along the straight and narrow path?
Has your Journey come Full Circle?
These things you speak of now I’ve heard before in the hearts of Good Men, men chosen of G*d. Samson, Judas & Solomon were favored and yet were deceived. Which of them had Victory in the End?
Seek to answer these questions from a True & Honest Heart. Discern the root cause & timing of your troubled mind, lack of Hope los of Faith.
Renew Your Mind, as G*d’s Greatest Revelations & Outpourings have begun!
What greater Victory has been Won and by Whom? You or the Deciever of this World?
tcb
Do you stand by the math you used to calculate all probabilities of this wheel? I totally understand the agnostic perspective given the inconsistencies of the Bible. I also understand the questions of why would a good God allow bad things to happen to innocent people. However, if there is a supreme intelligence does it not take a bit of intellectual arrogance to assume our minds can think and perceive on his level. It seems possible to me that we may not be able to understand his way,we may not approve of what we think his way is and yet we did not create the universe. As a geologist I see rational intellectual reasons (evidence) that suggest a much greater intelligence at work than what we could possibly perceive. I do not believe that random evolution produced our current world. I do believe intelligent evolution produced our world. Yet I still have many questions…but I’m not God.
Hey there Interested,
Yes, as far as I know, all the probability calculations are accurate. Indeed, as far as I know, all the evidence provided on this site and in the 412 page Bible Wheel book stands.
The only people I know of who act like they believe they can “think on God’s level” are the fundamentalists who assert that the Bible is the “inerrant and infallible Word of God.” The Bible does not say that. They are attributing things to God of their own imaginations.
I have not problem with the idea of a great intelligence underlying reality. I just don’t see how it could be the God described in the Bible.
As for “random evolution” – please tell me the titles of the last three books you have read that were written by evolutionary scientists to explain the theory of evolution. If you haven’t done that, please get back to me with your question after you do.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Richard
As far as Books:
Origin of Species
Evolutionary Creation (Denis Lamoureux)
Darwin’s Finches (David Lack)
The Blind Watchmaker (Dawkins)
Climbing Mt Improbable (Dawkins)
I’m not really interested in an argument and I believe the search for truth is never ending. When I happened on your site I was fascinated with the Bible Wheel. I’m also intrigued with your words after your conversion compared to your words since you’ve denounced Christianity. I know this happens all the time and I know personally that doubt is often or weaved between our beliefs. That doubt is on both sides of the belief in God equation. But at some point faith (for either side) has to prevail. It boils down to which side do we think has the best evidence for our faith. I’ve been on both sides of the equation and I seem to have enough rational, intellectual and spiritual evidence to support my faith in God. It’s not perfect and I still have questions but my search will continue. Good luck to you on your search.
Hey there Interested,
It’s good to know that you have studied the subject. Have you read any of the more recent books that show how DNA supports evolution? I recommend Sean Carol’s The Making of the Fittest.
Your assertion that “faith must prevail” doesn’t make any sense to me because science does not require “faith” of the kind that believers put in the Bible or their religious dogmas that cannot be proven. And whether or not there is some sort of God is irrelevant to this debate because evolution does not address that question and it is fully consistent with the possible existence of some sort of God. The only real issue concerns specific dogmas derived from religious books that directly contradict the evidence, such as six days of creation or the idea that all the species were simultaneously created.
Personally, I am inclined towards the idea that there is a metaphysical ground of being in Consciousness or Mind, but I’m not committed to that view since it is beyond my knowledge.
Great chatting!
Richard
Hi there, just thought mabe I could save you all that reading. Read all the books you want your never going to go farther than one mule. There are hundreds of examples that evolution is only for people desperatly hoping that the GOD of the Bible is not true. They can’t see the forest for the trees, so they blind themselves and give up their common sense so they can believe a lie. Same thing you have done with the BIBLE. I can see you need help badly so more help soon. It may hurt a little but it gets better. Wait until we start talking about JESUS, it really gets good. God really is not what you say He is and it’s my pleasure to show you that. At your service…Mild Bill
Hey there Bill,
The idea that anyone believes evolution because they are “desperately hoping that the GOD of the Bible is not true” is as absurd as it is false. First, there are many Christians who understand the reality of evolution. Have you never heard of Dr. Francis Collins, the former head of the Human Genome Project? Second, there are many reasons rational people CANNOT believe in the God of the Bible because he simply is not true. If you think otherwise, all you have to do is produce evidence that would convince a rational skeptic (that’s me, and any person with a healthy mind).
You say it is your please to correct me … so let’s get to it!
Have a great day,
Richard
Hello bro Richard,
Found your website today after God gave me the strange word “Allee” which I assumed to be French, which it is, but also English, a proper name of a biologist who discovered a strange phenomenon in nature (henceforth known as the Allee effect). Something about genetics, but that’s getting off the point a bit. Then the spirit led me to look up 111, significance thereof, which led me to you. Your Biblical numerics work is amazing to say the least. Right up there with E. W. Bullinger.
Um, I was somewhat surprised to find that you had so called left the faith, but it sort of sounds to me like the way Bob Dylan sort of left the faith. I think he just got wise to Christians. Anyway, I read your above contentions to Christianity and would like to give my two cents worth of an opinion.
Basically, you are right on all three accounts. These are conclusions that I also have come to, especially the first 2.
Hell, as you know, is biblical, it’s there, but not in a Dantean way, that’s mainly church tradition. It’s spoken of in several contradictory ways–Gehenna, the lake of fire, the grave, sheol, whatever. They can’t all be the same thing. As Jesus said (wisely) “all things shall be salted with fire.” Take your pick, salt or fire, one or both is a metaphor.
Secondly,the contradictions, oh the contradiction, yes, the contradictions. Stumblingblocks, flaming swords, and contradictions. Praise the Lord.
Lastly, God of course answers prayer. “He’s not a dumb idol” a brother once said to me. But he is by no means obligated to, nor does he “generally.” But faith he cannot resist. We see this principal in the gospels. Christ never turned away someone who came to him wanting him to so something, a healing, water into wine, etc. But a theological argument, a justification, a reason–that person went away be-riddled and bemused.
There are many things I would like to talk to you about. If you want email me. I know your super busy. Peace to you and yours.
Nick
Hey there Nick,
Thanks for your interesting comments. Given that you agree with my first two points, I wonder what your take on the Bible is. It seems like you think of it as something like the “authoritative” Word of God? Could you elaborate a little on this?
As for prayer, I agree that the God of the Bible should not be thought of as a “dumb idol” or as a servant that simply gives a believer whatever they might want. But that’s not the problem. The problem is that it looks like there is no God that answers any prayers at all. It truly looks like we are on our own down here. The most obvious example is disease. God was perfectly willing to let his people die of diseases that now are easily treated with antibiotics. As long as people relied on prayer, they died. We had to discover the solution ourselves. Likewise, the whole world operates apparently by natural law. There is no sign of any God that controls the weather or events or takes care of his people like described in the Bible. Another example: why doesn’t God ever heal amputees? All the “prayers” that believers say God answered look like the same kind of answers they would have gotten if they prayed to a milk jug. Click the link to see what I mean.
If you want to discuss any topic with me, you could register on the forum and start your own thread.
All the best,
Richard
The reason God wanted all the people dead in Canaan land was because they weren’t human as you know them. The Nephilim bread with these people. I think if you looked at a real study you will find this to be true. I love intellect as much as anyone, take a look here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgZ5lotVm4I
Hey there Joe,
So you are saying that one of the sons or daughters of Noah was infected with non-human “Nephilim” DNA?
It sounds like you are saying that God preserved the Nephilim DNA on the ark, let them grow large in Canaan, and then ordered his people to slaughter their babies. Your god sure puts on quite a party, dude!
But seriously, there’s a big bad bug in your interpretation. If one of the people on the ark was a carrier of Nephilim DNA, then everyone on earth would soon be infected because every person is supposed to be a descendant of the people on the ark.
Your theory seems quite ridiculous in every way. There was no flood of Noah. There were no Nephilim. But even if there were Nephilim and God saved them on the ark, then everyone would be Nephilim by population dynamics and you excuse for God’s genocidal command fails. And even if they were “inhuman” God could have killed them himself rather than brutalizing his people and making them into BABY KILLERS.
It’s all seems entirely nuts to me. I don’t understand how anyone could believe such things. Perhaps you could explain more. Why does the Bible make God look like a cruel, irrational, genocidal monster?
Richard
I pray that you may appreciate what perspective I may offer. I’ll provide a response to the three points you have listed. I do not mean to refute your arguments so much as provide the understanding which has been revealed unto me as of yet. I pray that they will provide understanding unto you.
1. The greatest problem for man is the nature of God; God is just and God is good. God is holy. Man is sinful in nature and because of this nature we would never survive to be even in the presence of such a being of perfection. We would burn up in the presence of His light as we are filled with many imperfections. A good metaphor is to imagine the way objects falling into the atmosphere or reaching the sun would burn upon reaching a certain speed or proximity, relatively. Christ willingly sacrificed Himself as a form of atonement and justification for us so that we might overcome sin and then purify ourselves unto holiness to enter into the presence of God in the afterlife, rather than eternal banishment from God (which is hell). Hell is a place where no light enters into and no light emanates outwardly from within hell, either. This is both true, physically and spiritually. Because God is good, He is both just and righteous. In His judgment His true righteousness will be known. Human justice is corrupt, so it is common to misunderstand justice. God does not give respect to person and will judge all according to the motives of their heart and every word which we utter. For example: Did you know that there is an angel recording every word which you speak and both of these will be included in the body of evidence which will be provided upon the day of our individual judgment. God has done the work of atonement and offers salvation unto man. Whether we choose to humble ourselves and purify ourselves will determine much of our character and our eternal destination. Pride has no place in the Kingdom of Heaven and is the most common affliction to humans. Think about it: If God did create man (and not vice versa, as some believe) what use would a God of perfection have for beings which he created that were arrogant enough to believe that they were self-righteousness enough to enter into the presence of God. There is a logic to the ways of the Lord and it all of which can be revealed to us, but only if we humble and purify ourselves. Our pride and sin will forever separate us from God if we do not address it.
2. While I have read portions of the Bible which do no immediately seem to agree with one another I find that these portions do agree in a way which is not first recognizable. I believe that this phenomenon is a demonstration of the omnipotence of the Lord. As He states, as the heavens are higher than the earth are My thoughts higher than yours. Do you really expect for everything to be understood by us? That is like a painting be able to understand and critique itself and the painter which created it. Of course, to us, that is preposterous. And, likewise, I’m sure God laughs at the absurdity of humans. We must accept that some things are not meant for our understanding. For example, humans are capable of experiencing four dimensions (the three dimensions of space and time). But, humans can calculate, using science, that there are far more dimensions than four. I believe that it has been calculated that there are a total of 24 dimensions according to humans. Yet, just because we know of them does not give us instant access to them. God reveals Himself to us in many ways, but only so much that it does not contradict the logic and will of God or the limitations of humanity.
On the issue of Canaan: I have not yet read to this subject in the Bible, but I believe that the Canaanites were all wicked people which were entirely corrupt, steeped in worship of Satan. In Genesis 6, Noah is described as “perfect” in his generations which states the reason for which he and his family were chosen to repopulate the planet. I believe that one of the underlying themes of the Bible is genetic corruption. If you’ve read your Bible, you will know that Satan knew of Christ before his incarnation and attempted to corrupt the lineage of man through fallen angels copulating with human women, which produced the state to which God felt the need to wipe out every living creature on the planet in the flood. Genesis 6 is quite revealing.
For example, think of Adolf Hitler: Would you want to enjoy the presence of such a person eternally? God grants us sovereign will and we choose our own fate. We do reap what we sow. The same is true for angels (Lucifer), humans, and all of the creations of God which are granted sovereign will.
I cannot be certain, but you (like many Christians) may not be completely aware of the dire state we (humans) live in and what may be at stake in our individual lives. We are much like the pieces which are being viciously fought over by God (our creator) and Satan (one who accuses by the words we utter and the motives in our heart). Satan is only allowed into our lives as much as give him a legal right into our lives.
Some might ask: Well if God is good, why does He not just destroy Satan? Because God is merciful–both towards Satan, but most importantly towards humans. Imagine a conversation between Satan and God: Satan says to God, “Look God, I’m a rebel; You know it and I know it. And that lake of fire over there is where I’m headed; You know it and I know it. But, because you’re just [which means he judges without respect to person but according to nature], I’m going to take all these humans with me.” Thus, the setting is set. We have free will to choose to be obedient to God or continue to rebel against God and worship Satan.
As I pointed out earlier, there are some things which humans simply cannot know in our state of existence. To presume that we should, could, or do know more than we actually do is presumptuous and prideful in and of itself. This is the first issue which we must uproot to understand our true place in reality.
3. God does answer prays as a rule. He may not be answering your prayers or the prayers of others and there are simple reasons as to why He does not do so. “But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear” (Isiah 59:2). Remember: God is holy and perfect. For us, as imperfect beings to call upon the Lord, our prayers would never reach the throne of heaven if we did not purify ourselves in humility (which, for example, means fasting) and repentance which does purify our intention and motives so that our prayers more closely align with the will of God so that our prayers may be heard and responded to. God will not simply respond to every prayer, willy nilly. There is a divine design which God is bringing to fruition.
Richard, your work is appreciated and has brought me to the understanding of why you have left the faith. I believe you have been used for a beautiful evil. I would only ask that you re-evaluate your purpose as a creation of God and repent from your decision to abandon truth.
This is what your book has done for me so far. It has made quite clear who the false prophet is and how satan’s plan is unfolding right before our eyes. The age of grace is clearly coming to an end.
The Nephillum did exist and do exist, it is proven. However they were not on the ark, nor was their DNA. Please reference the work of L.A. Marzulli, I promise you will not be disappointed as a scientist and skeptic.
As well, there was a global flood, evidence of it is all over the world. It is just a matter of choice to believe it or not. It is a fruitless battle to try to verbally ‘prove’ it to you.
The cruelty we see in the world and that we have seen in the world is the doing of humanity and the responsibility of humanity in communion and unification with the evil works of satan and his minion. The spiritual world is real and evident in where the worship of the world lies, in both self and created gods. Genesis 6 explains the condition of humanity in slavery to those that abandoned God in their rebellion against His boundries. There is (much) science that explains this in full in the works of many Christian scientists such as Douglas Hamp, Chuck Missler and the transhumanism studies of Tom Horn. These are only references if you have any desire to explore the research of others in reference to the subject matter of the comments.
Your book does do a great service to both sides of the fence, as it defines the uniqueness of the Scriptures and that it, by your own words could not have just put together without a divine designer. However, there is an underlying theme connecting (not dividing) the anti-christ movement throughout history with true christianity. There is a double-minded undertone to the whole thing, although very eloquently written and somewhat of a ‘musical’ tone. Scripture attests to this as the very work of Satan, as you are not a believer by your own admittence. It is brilliant as it is Scripturally sound teaching, but with insertions of subtle twists that have an occulitc message.
I hope and pray that you would be willing to reconsider your stance on the goodness of God. He has mercifully cleansed this earth of evil works of Satan once, He’s getting ready to do it again. The spiritual battle is a fight for your thinking. Ephesians speaks directly to this. Man is fallible. Our worship is what our Lord desires. We must worship in spirit and truth. We are spiritually dead if we do not reconcile our relationship with Him. It is He that makes us spiritually alive, we cannot do that for ourselves, but to submit to Him. Many mistake their souls for their spirits and are led by what they feel and what they experience, instead of truth. I would ask that you compile all the facts and then submit to how the Lord would use the truth of His Word to convince you. He says, seek and you will find. The truth will set you free.
Hey there Christina,
Alien Conspiracy theorists like Marzulli and Tom Horn take religious delusion to a whole new level. Their assertions are utterly insane and easily refuted.There’s too much to say to fit in this combobox – your comment has prompted me to write an article on the many different forms of religious delusion.
Your comments on the Bible Wheel don’t make any sense. They are too vague. What “subtle twists” do you think “have an occultic message”? And your criticism seems a bit odd given that you believe the most outrageous occult teachings about demons pretending to be aliens impregnating women and other such delusional conspiratorial superstitious nonsense.
Richard
On the subject of the Mystery of God
To try and understand the so-called “Mysteries of God” is a huge endeavour and has caused many a spiritual downfall. We are told to “study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman that need not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth,” 2 Timothy 2:15. The mistake that many of us make is to study the Bible, God’s Word, to prove God to us. Instead, we are to study to seek God’s approval. God has no need to prove Himself to us, what He demands of us is faith, even when we can’t see the proof. It is faith that pleases Him, not our often misguided intellect. We answer to God, He does not answer to us. The Word of God is only powerful in our lives when we step out in faith to believe it. The mysteries of God can only be revealed through faith, certainly not by any human understanding or logic. If you have more questions than answers when it comes to understanding God, don’t worry. Faith will fill in the gaps, after all, that is the way God planned it.
Hi Sharilyn,
What would you think if a Muslim or a Mormon told you that they know their religion is true through “faith.” Would you agree with them? Would you say that evidence doesn’t matter?
I agree that the human intellect is often misguided. But the solution is not found by “faith” in a book or what someone tells you! The solution is to use your intellect all the more.
How would you know if you have properly understood the Bible if you don’t use your intellect? How do you discern between truth and error if you don’t use your intellect?
If your intellect is totally misguided and completely untrustworthy, then how do you know you are not totally deluded? It doesn’t work to say “by faith” because people who have faith don’t agree with each other so we know they can’t all be correct. Therefore, we must use our intellects to discern truth.
There is only one way to know the truth. You must use your intellect, understanding, and logic to the best of your ability. If you fail to do this, how will you know if you are just another deluded cult member in false religion?
Your phrase “human understanding and logic” is redundant because there is no other kind of “understanding and logic” available to any of us. And your claim is self-refuting because it is a conclusion based on your own fallible “human understanding and logic.” Where did you get the idea in the first place? It was taught to you by fallible Bible teachers. And why do they teach it? Because they don’t want believers using their understanding and logic. They don’t want believers trusting their own minds. They want BELIEVERS not CRITICAL THINKERS. They know that their false teachings would be exposed if people used their intellect to evaluate them. They know that the Bible itself cannot stand under the light of reason.
Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind. Don’t let your mind become a septic tank by uncritically accepting religious dogmas!
All the best,
Richard
Of course you shouldn’t believe the doctrine of hell because there is no hell.
The Bible appears to contain contradictions but once you think through them logically, the contradictions disappear. It may contain some errors because humans have inserted their own theology into the bible.
And the only prayers that God answers are those according to his will as stated in 1 John 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
Mr.McGough,
Thank you for your study , a real treasure to me, of beauty & truth.
You wrote,
x-
I agree that the human intellect is often misguided. But the solution is not found by “faith” in a book or what someone tells you! The solution is to use your intellect all the more.
-x
1.
Why “use your intellect all the more” considering what you have just said about “human intellect”?
2.
Do you find anything wrong with, say, Proverbs 3:5?
x–
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
–x
http://bitly.com/pro0305
You have written to someone from Latin America (but he/she could have come from anywhere else in the world):
x—
You don’t know who Charlie Sheen is? I guess you’ve never heard of Google, eh? At least you are consistent in your rejection of the “human intellect.” You obviously have rejected yours.
—x
Praying for you
hoping to see your response soon.
i7sharp
Hey there i7sharp,
You wrote:
Because it’s better than any alternative. Faith leads directly to delusion. Just look at all the crazy things people believe by “faith.”
Absolutely! That verse is the root of the primary delusion of Christianity – the delusion that God is trustworthy. Everyone knows that God cannot be trusted. If he were only half as trustworthy as the average dentist there would be no debate about his existence.
Great chatting,
Richard
Thank you for your prompt response.
1.
Can you please respond to the other part of my post?:
x-
You have written to someone from Latin America (but he/she could have come from anywhere else in the world):
x—
You don’t know who Charlie Sheen is? I guess you’ve never heard of Google, eh? At least you are consistent in your rejection of the “human intellect.” You obviously have rejected yours.
—x
-x
2.
What do you believe about Jesus Christ now?
Praying for you,
i7sharp
ps do you consider it condescending of me to say I am praying for you?
Hey there i7sharp,
I don’t know what you are asking in your question #1 about my response to the person in Latin America.
As for question #2 – I don’t have any opinion about Jesus Christ because I have no knowledge. I think it would be foolish to have an opinion about something I don’t know. But I do know that lots of people make lots of claims about Jesus, but they all disagree with each other so I don’t worry about that stuff.
I don’t consider condescending that you say you are praying, but I don’t think it makes much sense either. Prayer is between you and your concept of God. Why would you tell me about it?
Great chatting,
Richard
(I could not find the “Reply” button.)
“I don’t know what you are asking in your question #1 about my response to the person in Latin America.”
I was trying to make a point – i.e., you should not expect someone from Latin America to know Charlies Sheen.
Or, for that matter, even your next door neighbor unless you know him really well.
x-
As for question #2 – I don’t have any opinion about Jesus Christ because I have no knowledge.
-x
You “have no knowledge”?
Should I infer you doubt if Jesus even existed?
Please elucidate.
What do you think of this?:
http://www.av1611.org/resur.html
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ
i7sharp
Hey i7sharp,
1. I wasn’t expecting the person from Latin America to know about Charlie Sheen. But I was expecting any internet user to know about search engines like Google that would have given them the knowledge they were asking about.
2. The actual existence of the Biblical character “Jesus Christ” is entirely a matter of faith. There may have been an historical person the myth was based on, but there certainly was no Jesus as described in the Bible (walking on water, turning water to wine, casting out demons that cause illness, etc.). That “Jesus Christ” seems quite obviously the stuff of myth. We know now that demons do not cause disease, etc.
As for the link to the hyper-fundamentalist page arguing for the resurrection – that page is filled with logical and factual errors. For example, it presumes that the Bible is a factual record written by eyewitnesses. There is no evidence for that, and besides, if you start with the assumption that the Bible is true then there is nothing you need to prove! Folks lost in faith tend to have no understanding of what really constitutes evidence. And they have double standards. They would not accept their own arguments if presented by Muslims, for example.
All the best,
Richard
Richard,
You wrote:
x-
We know now that demons do not cause disease, etc.
-x
1. Who are the “We”?
2. Please quote the passage(s) where you infer the Bible says demons cause disease?
Thank you.
i7sharp
Hey there i7sharp,
1. By “we” I meant folks familiar with what the Bible teaches.
2. Here are a couple:
Matthew 10:1 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.
Matthew 8:16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick,
The casting out of demons is stated in parallel with the healing of diseases and this coheres with the near universal superstition of pre-scientific people. Modern Christians debate whether the Bible teaches that “demons cause disease” because it contradicts science. There is no need to debate this specific point since I gave it only as a mere example of the superstitions in the Bible, which are legion.
Richard
Richard,
OK, let us not debate on demons causing diseases.
Or on, of all subjects, Charlie Sheen!
One can infer from your “Why I quit Christianity” that you claim to be previously a Christian.
Why did you think you were a Christian? What is a Christian?
For no particular reason, I wish you would read or listen to Spurgeon’s sermon, “Vessels of Mercy.”
And see if it applies to you.
btw, what did you think of Vernon Jenkins’ take on the Bible then … and what do you think of it NOW?
http://www.whatabeginning.com/Wonders.htm
Thanks.
i7sharp
ps I won’t keep saying I pray for you; God knows I do pray for you.
Hey there i7sharp,
Yes, I was a serious Bible-believing Christian for about 15 years. I was a Christian because I believed it was true.
What is a Christian? Good question. There are probably as many definitions as there are believers. I don’t see any value in debating the definition.
As for Spurgeon and his sermon – thanks for suggesting that. It is a good reminder of the gross insanity from which I have broken free. Spurgeon was a Calvinist who taught the utterly perverse doctrine that all humans are born deserving to suffer eternal torment in hell. And his teachings were utterly incoherent. He taught that the saved are saved by God alone, whereas the damned are damned by their own will. It’s all totally nuts.
As for Vernon Jenkins – his work is almost unique in the world of gematria in that most of it is valid and compelling. I derived similar results and extended them well beyond anything Vernon discovered. I called the results Biblical holographs. They are still valid and compelling, only now I don’t know what they really mean since I cannot believe that the Bible is the “Word of God” in any traditional sense since it contains contradictions, errors, absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God which imply that even the God it describes cannot be real.
It would be great if you registered on my forum since we could start a thread devoted to these topics.
All the best,
Richard
Hi Richard:
I wonder if you could elaborate on the notion that the sequences found within the holographs are genuine but the GOD model is not. Perhaps the GOD model should be created around the holographs and NOT the sentence structure of the KJV or the language of the Bilble itself,
Just a thought…
Namaste,
Mystykal
Good morning Mystykal,
The holographs have evidence supporting them, so they are “genuine” whereas there is no evidence supporting the “God model” (whatever you mean by that).
I am not interested in creating a new “God model.” If God can’t do that himself, then he’s not much worth worshiping, is he?
Richard
Hi Richard:
You said: “I am not interested in creating a new “God model.” If God can’t do that himself, then he’s not much worth worshiping, is he? ”
================================
By GOD Model I mean the ability to create a true concept about the intelligence behind the holographs. You seem to be stuck in the “Christian” superficial mythology created by the Fundalmentalist “talking heads”. I suggest that their ideas are false simply because they are not in accord with the basic structure of ideas imbedded in the Word – concepts themselves.
So, perhaps it is not a question of creating a “new” GOD model but rather discarding the old models which have no basis in fact and looking for the truth imbedded in the holographs/gematra themselves.
The truth although hidden is knowable!.
Namaste,
Mystykal
Sharilyn Anderson
Posted March 31, 2013 at 6:11 pm | Permalink
On the subject of the Mystery of God
To try and understand the so-called “Mysteries of God” is a huge endeavour and has caused many a spiritual downfall. We are told to “study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman that need not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth,” 2 Timothy 2:15. The mistake that many of us make is to study the Bible, God’s Word, to prove God to us. Instead, we are to study to seek God’s approval. God has no need to prove Himself to us, what He demands of us is faith, even when we can’t see the proof. It is faith that pleases Him, not our often misguided intellect. We answer to God, He does not answer to us. The Word of God is only powerful in our lives when we step out in faith to believe it. The mysteries of God can only be revealed through faith, certainly not by any human understanding or logic. If you have more questions than answers when it comes to understanding God, don’t worry. Faith will fill in the gaps, after all, that is the way God planned it.
My observation of these comments is that one – the use of the word Faith is NOT by any definition from the Bible. Once you begin to assume the meaning of a word like faith it changes the logic used with the word. So that the word faith is not really faith anymore. faithlessness is presumption cloaked as faith. The Bible without a doubt is the most misinterpreted book in the the world! Of course if you just accept any old notion by “faith” well then the world by “faith” is… FLAT!
And Two…Faith never “fills in the gaps”. The mystery of GOD is just that. A mystery! To think that faith will somehow “explain the need to be completely irrational is IRRATIONAL! I am ashamed that there are so many so called “Christians” out there who act like in order to believe in GOD you must give up logic. GOD says, Come let us reason together”… The system of truth found in the Words of GOD can never be twisted to just be “faith rubbish”. GOD is not the GOD of confusion! Christianity deserves better!
Namaste,
Mystykal
Hey there Mystykal,
You wrote:
I really can’t think of any meaningful “God model” to make at this time. No matter what I come up with, it will just be my own speculation. How would I ever know if I were right? And what difference would it make if I were? Most folks are hung up about God because they have been brainwashed to think that they must have the right “God model” or they will go to hell. With that error out of the way, what does it really matter what model a person makes up? You see, I’m highly allergic to metaphysical speculation. The holographs are deeply intriguing, and maybe they require a “God model” to be explained, but maybe not. Maybe they are a mysterious subconscious manifestation of archetypes or some other psychological phenomenon. The thing is, I have no way to know, and since we inherit the whole “God model” along with ten thousand crappy dogmas like hell, why pursue it? Obviously, you see value in it, so maybe you could enlighten me by sharing the value you see?
Great chatting,
Richard
That is the root of all the religious delusion in the world. Some human makes up a dogma, writes it in a book, and tells that God Almighty demands that we believe their man-made dogma.
**That is the root of all the religious delusion in the world. Some human makes up a dogma, writes it in a book, and tells that God Almighty demands that we believe their man-made dogma.**
I not only disagree with the statement you quoted about having “faith without facts”, since biblically speaking, faith is rooted in facts, but I disagree respectfully with your counter, Richard.
The humans who made the dogmas of all the major and most of the minor religions of the world have a God, a Satan, a judgment, a flood, a Heaven and a Hell. What (who?) do they all know?
Hey there Matt,
I appreciate you “respectful” disagreement. But I cannot agree with your assertion that “biblically speaking, faith is rooted in facts.” First, John quotes Christ as saying “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:29) That’s faith without facts. Second, the things you call “facts” are mere assertions. Is it a fact that Jesus was born of a virgin, walked on water, and rose from the dead? Nope. Those are not facts supported by any evidence at all. Your faith is in what you have been told, not in facts that you can demonstrate.
They didn’t “know” anything. They were primitive pre-scientific people who believed in superstitions that have long been proven false. For example, we know with great certainty that there was no global flood that killed all the land animals in the last 10,000 years. If there were, it would show up in the genetics – there would be a bottle neck. And besides that, the story is absurd in the extreme because there is no way that all the animals could have fit on the ark, and they would not have survived after the flood because a whole species would have gone extinct every time the carnivores had a meal. And there are a thousand other reasons.
Great chatting!
Richard
The holographs are deeply intriguing, and maybe they require a “God model” to be explained, but maybe not. Maybe they are a mysterious subconscious manifestation of archetypes or some other psychological phenomenon. The thing is, I have no way to know, and since we inherit the whole “God model” along with ten thousand crappy dogmas like hell, why pursue it? Obviously, you see value in it, so maybe you could enlighten me by sharing the value you see?
——————————————–
Hi Richard:
Thanks for the comments… I agree with you 100% Now….
The reason to pursue the idea of a “god model” is because of the unknown questions and psychic phenomenom which actually exist. It cannot be ignored. The holographs could be caused by ANYTHING? No! You yourself have narrowed the field by stating that they could be mental archetypes
The FACT is that “intelligence” at the level of these types of numerical sequences requires a “god model”. Which in turn requires intelligence! Do not limit your options when delving into the unknown. The ancient wisdom keepers all experienced things which never could be explained.
So that wisdom comes from understanding. Understanding comes from somewhere out there. The facts as we know them today do not answer for us the mystery of intelligence. By that I mean the interrelated facts cannot be simply unrelated chance mental gymnastics! Thoughts are not random! they have some kind of connection. So that the human mind and the mind of “GOD” may have the same intelligence substance….
This is the conclusion of the wisdom keepers, An experience worth having!
Namaste,
Mystykal
Hey there Mystykal,
Your comments are intriguing as always. I agree with a lot you say, but I don’t know anything about the “ancient wisdom keepers.” Can you name one or two so I can know who and what you are talking about? I’ll answer more after that.
Great chatting,
Richard
Richard,
I recall discovering your amazing bible wheel some years back. I even helped publicize to folks!
I’d like to clarify something. When you oppose doctrines like eternal hell, do you believe Jesus taught these things and therefore you oppose Him? Or do you think they were introduced by the institutional church?
Do you think Jesus was an historical figure? Do you believe he rose from the dead? How do you separate legend and lore from life?
This is something I just posted on Amazon. Perhaps you would like to comment?
http://www.amazon.com/review/R2XNHME0KCHEEB/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?ie=UTF8&asin=1878026097&cdForum=Fx14WQT04EQ1CQ7&cdMsgID=Mx1M0P5ELXNXU8B&cdMsgNo=356&cdPage=36&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx155TQC2EHLIH5&store=books#Mx1M0P5ELXNXU8B
DARWINIAN EVOLUTION AND BIBLICAL CREATIONISM AS A FALSE DICHOTOMY
After perusing a long collection of ICR articles a friend sent to me, I have come to a startling conclusion. I believe that both evolution and creationism are myths created to avoid the obvious conclusion that we were created by a malevolent Spiritual Entity that delights in competition, suffering, violence, and murder.
I have reached this conclusion reluctantly, after spending the last 30 years of my life engaged in a deep search for spiritual truth. I will lay out my case briefly in order to elicit comments from the public.
The mythic quality of the biblical creation story is more a product of logical thinking than empirical evidence; while that of Darwinian evolution is a product of logic inherent in science and the laws of nature.
The biblical creation story illustrated in Genesis chapters 1-3 is full of obvious logical inconsistencies and absurdities:
1. The rabbinical commentators agree that there appear to be two separate creation accounts of the “first woman.”
2. The time scale in Genesis 1 differs from that in Genesis 2. While the former presents an orderly six day progression of Creation, the latter suggests that the “first man” labored in the “Garden of Eden” for much longer than one 24 hour day before being expelled due to the “Fall”.
3. God could create reality in an instant. The six days of Creation described in Genesis 1 seem to be an artifice and anthropomorphism. It is especially absurd that Creationists labor to “prove” that these six days are 24 hour days and not long periods of time, since regardless of the true time scale of the universe, the author of this account clearly had a polemical goal in mind.
4. It is utterly implausible that God would create man (and possibly animals too) with immortality while living on a planet of finite resources. Such an objection is so glaringly obvious that it defies all rational explanation.
Based on these points, it seems clear that the “Tree of Knowledge” is a metaphor for man’s awareness of his own mortality that always has reigned on this suffering planet, subject to immutable laws of entropy and decay, as Creation scientists themselves point out. For some unknown reason, around 10,000 years ago man began to recognize his mortality and to develop culture and religion to cope with his tragic self awareness. The Christian notion of original sin is particularly pernicious, since it blames man for being the victim of these unalterable physical forces that he is powerless to control. Since Jesus of Nazareth speaks of Adam and Eve and Noah’s Flood, it must be concluded that he too was immersed in the popular mythos of Jewish Creationism.
Concerning Darwinian evolution, it seems clear that the many objections raised by Creationists are valid. It is not plausible that advanced organisms could form autonomously through random and undirected processes. Life exhibits far too much complexity to attribute it to mere happenstance. And indeed those who advocate such ideas seem truly ignorant and foolish and in defiance of the very laws of nature they claim to respect.
It is possible, however, that Darwin originally intended his theory to help alleviate the oppression of theocratic violence that marred European society. Michael Ruse demonstrates the disillusionment with religious warfare that had overwhelmed many Europeans just prior to Darwin’s time. Ruse presents Matthew Arnold’s famous poem, On Dover Beach, as a prime example of this process. Whatever Phillip Johnson argues about the violence and malevolence of atheistic regimes in the 20th century, the fact is that up to Darwin’s time Europeans had their surfeit of religious warfare. And indeed, almost all the casualties in both World Wars, that Johnson blithely attributes to atheistic ideologies, were Christians who had been blessed on their mission of murder by military chaplains including priests, ministers, and rabbis on both sides of the conflict:
http://www.amazon.com/Michael-Ruse/e/B001IR3OHA/ref=la_B001IR3OHA_pg_1?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_82%3AB001IR3OHA&ie=UTF8&qid=1367719845
http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/arnold/writings/doverbeach.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dover_Beach
http://www.hamiltoninstitute.com/darwins-theory-of-evolution-and-the-victorian-crisis-of-faith-a-critical-reading-of-dover-beach/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2006/dec/23/featuresreviews.guardianreview2
It also is known that Darwin dropped out of seminary due to a growing depression and despondency. Perhaps he recognized the stench of wicked hypocrisy and was impelled to reject it. Darwin may have hoped to avoid the painful conclusion that we were created by a spiritual force(s) that relish ruthless competition and murderous violence by postulating a mechanism for life to arise without need of a Creator of any kind. Unfortunately for Darwin’s best intentions, advances in modern science demonstrate the overwhelmingly intricate nature of not only biological life but the very structure of the atom and all material substances and the universe as a whole, all of which make a mockery of his idea that all arose due to blindly random and accidental forces of nature.
So the evidence for some form of Creationism seems scientifically inescapable, validated by the very laws of nature that evolutionists claim to respect. But it also is clear that the record of theocratic control over humanity is appalling: religion is characterized by the basest corruption and most savage and ruthless mayhem that people like Richard Dawkins rightfully condemn. Religion serves as a tool of social control and repression and also a powerful instrument of psychological and sociological warfare in the ongoing clash of civilizations of which history is replete. But to avoid the nasty implications that such malevolent behavior has been programmed into us by the forces that created us and all the universe, religion postulates its fairy tale “perfectly benevolent” God and brazenly places the blame for all human and naturalistic suffering on the supposed sinfulness of humanity itself. Religion also can exploit the base nature of humanity by directing it against the eternal enemy in the endless struggle of good vs evil. Rather than truly perfect human nature, religion simply invites people to direct their murderous behavior against those who will not accept their particular religious paradigm. Thus all stand condemned of utterly hypocritical depravity. Religion becomes just another tool in the ongoing struggle for survival in the world ruled by the cruel constraints established by its “Creator”.
What was the role of Jesus? Assuming he even existed, then either he was as deluded by the prevailing creationist paradigm as anyone else of his day, or he came to teach people that there is an eternal spiritual component of their being and that they should not fear death at all. However his frequent intimations in the Gospel stories about the inherent sinfulness of humanity makes him suspect as another religious huckster preying on the guilt, fears and insecurities that mar the human psyche in its struggle to survive in the harsh conditions prevailing throughout the created world.
These are my preliminary conclusions, and I welcome your input.
URLs that helped develop the thesis that Darwinism- Creationism is a false dichotomy:
http://www.creationsd.org
http://www.icr.org/article/295
http://www.icr.org/article/theistic-evolution-day-age-theory
http://www.icr.org/article/earth-unique-all-universe-updated
http://www.icr.org/article/117/
http://www.icr.org/article/radiohalos-significant-exciting-research-results/
http://www.icr.org/article/new-rate-data-support-young-world
http://www.icr.org/article/evidence-for-young-world
http://www.icr.org/article/ice-age-genesis-flood
http://www.icr.org/article/1062/
http://www.icr.org/article/570/
http://www.icr.org/article/842/
http://www.icr.org/article/pantheistic-evolution
http://www.icr.org/article/early-church-defended-creation-science
http://www.icr.org/article/mr-bryan-evolution
Hey there Michael,
It’s good to hear from you. Your question “How do you separate legend and lore from life?” really hits the nail on the head. Even if there were a historical Jesus we know that many unhistorical myths like the Virgin birth and walking on water, were attributed to him. And since there is no way to separate the legend from the historical Jesus I don’t concern myself about that issue. I can’t know the truth, so what does it matter? The point seems to be moot.
Now you asked:
I don’t know if Christ taught “eternal hell” or not since that is a matter of interpretation.
In general, Christ gives a much better picture of God, but ultimately that’s irrelevant because he endorsed everything written in the OT including genocide and the kidnapping of the 32,000 virgins. Christ cannot be separated from these abominations any more than his Father Yahweh. Therefore, I cannot accept that the image of Christ in the NT is any more true than the image of Yahweh in the OT.
And how could there be such a transformation in my understanding? It was forced on me by honesty and integrity. I came to understand that most of the “ecstatic” thoughts I had about God were really the creation of my own imagination. I was reading my thoughts into the words of the Bible – vivifying them. If you are interested, here is an excellent YouTube series that explains the psychology of a believer and the process of deconversion.
Hey there Michael,
That’s quite a thesis you have there. I totally agree with your criticism of creationism and the Genesis mythology. But I think it is quite absurd to put the science of evolution in the same class as creationism. Creationism is a farce. Evolution is real science. Have you ever read any books explaining evolution written by an evolutionary scientist? If so, which ones? If not, then it is foolish for you to come to any conclusion like “both evolution and creationism are myths.”
Your assertion that the creationist have valid points is not true in my estimation. And worse, your criticism of Darwin as a failed and bitter theology student is both irrelevant and absurd as you would know if you actually studied the science.
I think a much more plausible explanation is that there is no theistic style god of any kind. We are on our own. That explains things very well in my estimation.
All the best
Richard
PS: You’ve got a lot of interesting ideas. If you want to explore them more, it would be good to register on my forum where we could start a thread devoted to your ideas.
Richard,
Thanks for replying so quickly and generously.
How do I register for the forum? Where is it located?
So do you also believe that there is no life after death and all ends in the grave (or crematorium)? If so, what motivates you even to try in this world? Why bring children into such a world? What about politics and warfare? Almost all societies are involved in a constant struggle to assert their ideologies over those of rivals. Do you oppose this process? Do you avoid paying taxes that contribute to the war machine? If there is no God, then why should we care about any of this? Why is the Holocaust abhorrent? Why be concerned about infanticide? Etc etc ad nauseum.
Thanks for your honesty.
Regarding your comments giving a free pass to evolutionary science, I have read some books on it. I was in fact reared and educated in the myth of evolution through college at Harvard. Regarding skepticism of this field, I have done extensive reading by scientists who oppose it. I rely on their information, since it seems both logical and credible.
Also it amuses me that you defer to the judgment of biologists and other supposed experts in evolution, when their patron saint and founder Darwin himself was a self-trained autodidact. And the other leg of evolutionary theory, geological uniformitarianism, was created by Darwin’s friend, Charles Lyell, a lawyer by training and another amateur scientist. So why the objections to Darwinism by highly trained scientists in disparate fields is “off limits” to you seems incredible!
Finally, how do you know that what you call “the “ecstatic” thoughts I had about God were really the creation of my own imagination”? Do you ever have ecstatic thoughts about anything? Are they ever real or legitimate? What if one day you conclude that the ecstatic thoughts you have about your wife are imaginary and choose to divorce her? What’s to stop you?
As for Darwin’s despondency, perhaps that colored his research and ideas? How do you know that his despondency is less imaginary than your ecstasy?
I believe that God speaks to us through our emotions as well as our intellects. Can you prove He does not?
Have you seen these:
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/02/over_500_scientists_proclaim_t001981.html
http://gazette.com/article/47918
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123724852205449221.html
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/04/did_an_antiid_wikipedia_editor003539.html
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/04/pseudodarwinism_dr_cartwrights003489.html
http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v15i5e.htm
http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/vol12-8.pdf
http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v12i8f.htm
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7iWDlYJRu2sAnuNXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGFvA2FvBGNzcmNwdmlkA0tpUUVZa2dldXJCMUd6M2xVUm5jeWdUb1IuMVFSVkdDbFk0QUEwWnQEZnIDeWZwLXQtNzAxBGZyMgNzYnRuBG5fZ3BzAzYEb3JpZ2luA3NycARwcXN0cgNpc29jaHJvbnMEcXVlcnkDaXNvY2hyb25zBHNhbwMzBHZ0ZXN0aWQDQUNCWTAx?p=isochrons&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701&vf=all&vs=www.scienceagainstevolution.org&pqstr=isochrons
I have found of great value the posts of Yoram Bogacz, a South African rabbi and professional geologist who worked in the mining industry.
See these for example:
http://torahexplorer.com/2013/04/29/random-and-undirected/
http://torahexplorer.com/2013/04/16/the-limits-of-variability/
Also his recently published book:
http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Respectfully-putting-science-place/dp/1598260251
http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/12/07/the-myth-of-the-almighty-scientist-genesis-and-genes-by-yoram-bogacz-review/
http://blog.dovidgottlieb.com/2012/12/genesis-and-genes-review-in-algemeiner.html
Finally, how do you explain the remarkable mathematical patterns you discovered in the books of the bible? Is it all coincidence?
Hey there Michael,
You asked “Finally, how do you explain the remarkable mathematical patterns you discovered in the books of the bible? Is it all coincidence?”
I don’t have an answer to that. First, the question is too broad. Which patterns do you think are in need of explanation? Most of the patterns are not “mathematical” per se, but rather alphabetic and thematic. It’s not too hard to imagine that the large scale structure which I call the “Canon Wheel” (which shows the sevenfold symmetry) could be the result of conscious or unconscious scribal selection. I talk about this possibility in my post called An Evolutionary Explanation of the Bible Wheel. But that doesn’t work for the Alphabetic KeyLinks which I think are the most significant. But on the other hand, there are not as many such KeyLinks as their could have been if God were really trying to “prove” something, and some folks would be inclined to say they are “just coincidence.” It’s a little hard to measure precisely because of technical difficulties relating to cross-correlating Greek and Hebrew texts, but it’s something I’ve been meaning to do.
The most impressive “proof” for me is that the traditional arrangement seems to be truly optimal. Any rearrangement degrades existing patterns and does not make for new better patterns as far as I can tell. I call this the Bible Wheel Challenge and no one has ever attempted to answer it. So the mystery remains, but I don’t feel a need to figure it out because I have no sense of “urgency” since it is quite obvious to me that all the dogmas and threats of hell and such are pure poppycock.
All the best,
Richard
Hi Richard:
As you well know I am referencing “gematria” in general with my statement about the numerical significance found in the OT layout. Perhaps you are familiar with the Bible Code research by Ripps/Drosnin sequencing. In those projects it is made clear that the patterns found are numerical in nature. And these sequences are unexplainable as well.
The Alphabetic Key Links you refer to are similar in nature. I find that very fascinating. I do not believe that the sequencing has been found to any statistical significant degree outside the OT/NT writings. Making the field quite narrow for these types of findings.
I’m with you that the threats and dogma have to go!… I wish people would love life more than death! The possibility to aquire immortality intriques me as I have much to still learn in life. And like the Ancient Wisdom Keepers and the Bible state, “The living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing!”
So I think all those “Christians” hopeing to die and go to heaven are just kidding themselves! The truth is that the process for immortality is far more precise than that!
Namaste,
Mystykal
Mystykal
Posted May 4, 2013 at 12:03 am | Permalink
The holographs are deeply intriguing, and maybe they require a “God model” to be explained, but maybe not. Maybe they are a mysterious subconscious manifestation of archetypes or some other psychological phenomenon. The thing is, I have no way to know, and since we inherit the whole “God model” along with ten thousand crappy dogmas like hell, why pursue it? Obviously, you see value in it, so maybe you could enlighten me by sharing the value you see?
——————————————–
Hi Richard:
Thanks for the comments… I agree with you 100% Now….
The reason to pursue the idea of a “god model” is because of the unknown questions and psychic phenomenom which actually exist. It cannot be ignored. The holographs could be caused by ANYTHING? No! You yourself have narrowed the field by stating that they could be mental archetypes
The FACT is that “intelligence” at the level of these types of numerical sequences requires a “god model”. Which in turn requires intelligence! Do not limit your options when delving into the unknown. The ancient wisdom keepers all experienced things which never could be explained.
So that wisdom comes from understanding. Understanding comes from somewhere out there. The facts as we know them today do not answer for us the mystery of intelligence. By that I mean the interrelated facts cannot be simply unrelated chance mental gymnastics! Thoughts are not random! they have some kind of connection. So that the human mind and the mind of “GOD” may have the same intelligence substance….
This is the conclusion of the wisdom keepers, An experience worth having!
Namaste,
Mystykal
R. A. McGough
Posted May 6, 2013 at 9:25 am | Permalink
Hey there Mystykal,
Your comments are intriguing as always. I agree with a lot you say, but I don’t know anything about the “ancient wisdom keepers.” Can you name one or two so I can know who and what you are talking about? I’ll answer more after that.
Great chatting,
Richard
—————————————–
Hi Richard:
I included the above responses as I think it is hard to scroll so far up and keep commenting on earlier posts.
As to your question about the “Wisdom Keepers”…
The idea has been proposed by many anthropologists that certain information is universal and known within different cultures. The holders of this information are known as Wisdom Keepers. My personal tradition is found within the Native American cultures… Black Elk, Chief McIntosh, Ruby
Modesto to name a few. I also believe that Lao Tsu and the current Dali Lama of Tibet qualify as Wisdom Keepers. One must be very careful though how we hear the words of a spiritual guide. As the Dali Lama says “I do not see myself as anything but an ordinary man!” Yet he is revered by some as a god. He even carries the title His Holiness. Although most would say that the traditions of Tibet call for re-incarnation this in fact is NOT true. See: http://buddhism.about.com/od/karmaandrebirth/a/reincarnation.htm
Zen teacher John Daido Loori said,
“… the Buddha’s experience was that when you go beyond the skandhas, beyond the aggregates, what remains is nothing. The self is an idea, a mental construct. That is not only the Buddha’s experience, but the experience of each realized Buddhist man and woman from 2,500 years ago to the present day. That being the case, what is it that dies? There is no question that when this physical body is no longer capable of functioning, the energies within it, the atoms and molecules it is made up of, don’t die with it. They take on another form, another shape. You can call that another life, but as there is no permanent, unchanging substance, nothing passes from one moment to the next. Quite obviously, nothing permanent or unchanging can pass or transmigrate from one life to the next. Being born and dying continues unbroken but changes every moment.”
Thought Moment to Thought Moment
The teachers tell us that “me” is a series of thought-moments. Each thought-moment conditions the next thought-moment. In the same way, the last thought-moment of one life conditions the first thought-moment of another life, which is the continuation of a series. “The person who dies here and is reborn elsewhere is neither the same person, nor another,” Walpola Rahula wrote.
So that the notion of a soul as in Greek mythology and Roman Catholicism and other so called “Christian” religious traditions are not supported by the “Wisdom Keepers” or the Bible in general.
Namaste,
Mystykal
Hey there Mystykal,
You wrote:
When you speak of the OT layout I was under the impression you meant the layout of the books as in the Bible Wheel. I do not think of the verses as forming a “layout.” But no I understand what you meant.
I have never been impressed by the ELS Bible Codes. I don’t think there is anything that needs “explaining”.
I totally agree that I should not limit my options – and as far as I know I have not. But I don’t understand the term “god model” because it is not well defined. And even if I take it in its broadest possible sense I don’t see why it would be required by the holographs. All they require is a finite agency that (probably) transcends what any group of humans could have done (since it involves spans of time and culture that exceed any human lifetime and the earlier patterns would have had to anticipate the later patterns, etc.).
So maybe you are being a little “loose” with your term “god model”? What do you really mean by it? A clearer definition would help.
Richard
Hey there Mystykal,
You wrote:
I don’t agree that “understanding comes from somewhere out there.” In my experience, understanding comes from “in here” in my head. I don’t see intelligence itself as a great mystery. I see it grows pretty much in direct proportion to brain mass. The great apes have many characteristics found also in humans. Some even show rudimentary self-consciousness when shown a mirror. Now consciousness itself remains a mystery and that is one of the things that keeps me wondering about the metaphysical view that consciousness as the foundation of reality. But the more that I learn the less likely it seems that consciousness exists separately from brains in the sense of the classic brain/soul duality.
Excellent. Thanks for the clear answer. I agree with the Dali Lama. He was an ordinary man. And I read Black Elk and am convinced he was an ordinary man. I have never seen any reason to think that there are any “Wisdom Keepers.” That sounds rather superstitious and unwarranted to me.
The fact that common folk are inclined to deify famous people is another reason not believe they are really any different than anyone else. It’s just a psychological weakness common to humanity.
I think that is a very hasty judgment. I would be surprised if I could not find many “Wisdom Teachers” who clearly teach both reincarnation and the existence of the soul.
Great chatting!
Richard
Hi Richard:
Thanks for your comments. I will limit my comments here as I am not trying to change any of your ideas. However, you seem to miss the intent of my words and my quotations. The issue of definitions is clearly a sticking point with you. You seem to dodge my idea of “wisdom keeper” v/s “wisdom teachers”. In my opinion there is a huge difference. The foundation of any ideology should come from the true leaders and not from some so called teacher. Your mistake with Christianity is just that. You accepted as fact the leadership definitions for dogma and failed to see that in fact those individuals are not truely “Christian” in their teachings! So now when I lay down the definition of reincarnation from the Dalai Lama himself (“I can’t remember what I ate for breakfast yesterday”) you act like you can conjur up a different definition from some other teacher which says reincarnation is rebirth of one “soul” into several lifetimes of remembering and improving on the past experiences. That definition is NOT correct according to the Wisdom Keepers themselves. The notion of life after death as some long unbroken thought-train is not part of the definition of re-incarnation! No matter who says it. And the notion of re-birth is one which does not hold conscious anything from re-birth to re-birth. No “soul life” exists. Period. So all that mumbo jumbo tossed around by so called “teachers” is laughable.
As to the idea of consciousness being something shared outside the brain by many people at the same time…and that understanding comes from “out there” – Are you familiar with Dr.Goswami Professor of physics at the University of Oregon’s Institute of Theoretical Science? (now retired) Dr. Goswami has done some very interesting studies into intelligence and thought formation. At Bastyr University several studies have shown that two individuals not connected in any physical way experience the same stimulii when only applied to one of the individual test subjects. Suggensting that thoughts originate outside the brain! He refers to it as Quantum consciousness.. Nonlocality, tangled hierarchy, and discontinuity: these signatures of quantum consciousness have been independently verified by leading researchers worldwide. So when I say that perhaps ideas and “understanding” comes from out there somewhere I am in good comapany. Physics, specifically Quantum theory says that such ideas are correct. Please refer to http://www.amitgoswami.org
We can agree to disagree but I think its time to look at all the facts!
Namaste,
Mystykal
Hi Richard,
Thank you for all your work on the Bible Wheel. I have found it very interesting and very useful.
I was saddened to learn of your decision to “quit Christianity”.
Based on your earlier statements, I believe you are still a Christian in reality.
There is much about God and His plans that we do not understand. After all, He is infinite and we are finite. Fortunately, He has given us a teacher and guide — the Holy Spirit. He guides us into all truth.
I believe the Bible in its entirety. It reveals God to us. There are two key aspects of God. God is love. God is just. Since God is just, He will punish evil.
This may seem simplistic, but I believe it is accurate.
I hope you will continue to seek truth and understanding — just be sure you are looking in the right place.
All the best.
Curt
Hey there Curt,
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
What makes you think he has given us the Holy Spirit? It seems to me you could take a hundred people who think they have the Holy Spirit and they will disagree on a thousand points about what the Bible is supposed to mean. I have seen no evidence that there is anyone guiding Christians into “all truth.” On the contrary, religious dogmas like “the Bible is inerrant” tend to corrupt the minds of believers because it forces them to try to defend falsehood.
What does it mean to “believe the Bible in its entirety”? Do you believe there is a solid dome “firmament” holding up the “waters above”? Do you believe the universe was created in six days? Do you believe in a global flood? Those are things that many Christians believe the Bible says. But other Christians know they cannot be true so they “reinterpret” them which is why your comment is not only “simplistic” but false. No one can “believe the Bible in its entirety” because there is no way for anyone to know what it really says or which interpretation is correct. So all you are really “believing” is your own fallible interpretation of the Bible.
Truth is not found in a “place” so much as in a methodology. How do we know the truth of anything? By many independent mutually confirming witnesses. I can’t totally trust any of my senses. I could discover that something I thought I saw was an illusion by trying to touch it or ask someone else what they see. It is when many witnesses of my different senses and those of other people cohere that I begin to have confidence that I am approaching the truth. Nothing like this is to be found in any theistic style religion that I have encountered.
All the best,
Richard
2 Peter 2:22
Richard, even though your blog intends to weaken the faith of believers, you do just the opposite. Thank you! On the other hand, after a year away, I just came back to see how you are doing. I guess you are still astray. It seems to me that an evil spirit has got a hold of you; crying and begging to be free to be gay and homosexual. It is obvious. Fight and pray so that you don’t fall into their (fallen angels) trap. They are the root of apostasy, homosexuality and all perversion. Fight hard man; I can see your struggle.
William wrote:
Don’t be ridiculous William. My purpose is not to weaken anyone’s faith. My purpose is to help folks discover and articulate truth. Therefor, if their faith is true, then it will be strengthened by my blog, not weakened. My blog is a threat to no one except those committed to falsehood.
Now your assertion that my blog is strengthening the faith of believers like you is, of course, a sad fact. I say “sad” because if your faith is strengthened after talking with me, then you prove that you are lost in a strong delusion because I have shown where your arguments fail and you have not been able to respond intelligently. Therefore, if you feel that your faith is strengthened then there can be no conclusion but that you are one of those people so deeply deluded that you interpret evidence that proves you wrong as evidence that proves you right! In other other words, your world is entirely upside down and there is no way for me to help free you from your delusion. Your malady is known as the Backfire effect. I hope you will choose the path of truth and find your way to freedom. Good luck. I’m here to help if you desire it.
This is from the article you refer to: ‘Backfire Effect’.
“This is why hardcore doubters who believe Barack Obama was not born in the United States will never be satisfied with any amount of evidence put forth suggesting otherwise.”
The imbecile who wrote the article still believes obama was born in the USA. He will never be convinced otherwise. No matter what evidence is presented to him, he will always be certain of his stupidity. Likewise, you – Richard – unless you repent, you will die in your sin.
Write me a note, I am willing to help you understand the truth and open your mind.
Richard, you would not believe the sadness that grips my heart to see a brilliant mind like yours, with all the knowledge and insight about God and Jesus Christ, going completely in the opposite direction. Instead of following the Truth towards Life, Beauty and the spiritual world, you are heading towards darkness, chaos and evil. If that is what you call ‘freedom’, I don’t want it.
Since you wrote so well about Jesus Christ in the past, I feel you deserve a second chance to get back on track. (Note: there is not much time left. I wish you luck).
Richard,
I’m shocked to see someone who knows the Bible so well make the same terrible mistake that Adam made in the Garden. You are at risk of losing Paradise for listening to your wife!!!!
Hello Lucia, I’m Richards wife. I was just wondering where you got the idea that Richard woke up to the truth because of me? I would love to take credit for it, but the truth is we woke up together, which is quite a wonderful thing. I’m sorry there are people like you that are so quick to jump to conclusions and make judgments, before they know what they are talking about.
Hey there Isaac,
I’m sorry you’re sad, but I think that’s because you are committed more to the dogmas of your religion rather than to truth. I am not “going completely in the opposite direction”. On the contrary, I am going where I’ve always gone – towards an articulation of the truth that can be supported with logic and facts. Did you read my post before commenting? If so, how can you say that I am going in a different direction? Can’t you see that I gave REASONS for what I believe, just like I always have? The only difference is that I’ve come to a conclusion that you disagree with. Why is that? Do you have any REASON to disagree with what I wrote? Do you believe a good God could create an eternal evil like hell? Do you believe that God can actually be TRUSTED to ever answer any specific prayer? If so, then I fear for you children, because the children of people who REALLY trust God die horrible deaths.
When you say you are sad, I get the impression you are sad that you have no rational answers to the facts I presented in my post.
It’s pretty ironic that you ended your comment with the idea that “there is not much time left” because that is one of the crazy teachings that helped me escape the shackles of Christianity. I started my forum back in June of 2007 in the hopes of finding like-minded Christians to discuss what I thought were the “wonders of Scripture” but I found no one. The only thing any Christians wanted to talk about was the end of the world. The Rapture! Eschatology! Daniel’s 70th week! The re-desolation of the re-built Temple by the re-vived Roman Empire. Etc. Etc. Etc. And the more we discussed what the Bible actually says, the more I realized how frequently Christians ignore what it actually says in favor of making up whatever they want. The most fundamentalist “Bible believing Christians” were the least likely to admit what the Bible really says. They would twist words so that “this generation” (referring to Christ’s first century audience) became “that generation” speaking of whatever generation the interpreter happened to be in. Thus Martin Luther thought the end would happen 400 years ago, and in the 70s everyone followed the ludicrous Pied Piper of Lunacy Hal Lindsey, and on and on it goes, every new generation claiming to be the “last generation”. It’s all insanity. It never mattered how often they were proven wrong, they would make up new interpretations to fit the new generation. That’s how Harold Camping made 80 MILLION DOLLARS off gullible fundamentalist Bible believing Christians.
And as I discussed these things more and more with the most sincere Christians the more I learned that there is no such thing as “Christianity” but rather a diverse set of “Christianities” – Catholic, Protestant, Greek Orthodox, Pentecostal, SDA, Mormon, JW, an endless cacophony of pot shards clashing with pot shards. And each thinking that they have GOD’S OWN TRUTH without which they would be destined to an eternal suffering in HELL. What a load of codswallop!
And then there are the LIARS that rule evangelical Christianity, as revealed by the leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention, the leadership of Liberty University, the leading apologists like Norm Geisler, and all being led by Ergun Caner, the LIAR EXTRAORDINAIRE who still teaches at a hyper fundamentalist Christian school despite the fact that he was exposed as pretending to be a former terrorist who came to America “to do what was done on 9/11”. Bottom line: the evidence is overwhelming that dogmatic religions like Christianity tend to corrupt both the minds and the morals of believers. I want nothing to do with any of it.
Now all this to say that I escaped a PIT OF DARKNESS when I broke free from Christianity. You know the teachings. The fruit of the Christian tree is corrupt. And worse, it corrupts good morals! Any healthy normal person knows the difference between right and wrong, but not Christians! They say that there would be no morality if there were not a God to tell them what to do. And this is the teaching of the most prominent Christian apologist, William Lane Craig, so it is parroted by countless Christians. He has corrupted their minds and their morals in an attempt to prove the truth of his God. Pathetic.
And finally, what have I written that makes you think I am “heading towards darkness, chaos and evil”? My experience is the precise opposite. The world is opening up more and more as I see each person as a brother and sister, rather than as sinners deservedly destined for eternal punishment by an omniscient demon-god who created them for that purpose.
I would be delighted to discuss this more if you feel able.
All the best,
Richard
Hey there Lucia,
Your comment raises many questions.
1) What makes you think I came to this understanding by listening to my wife? It is true we talk a lot every day, but we are both free adults who make our own choices for our own reasons. And though we do agree about a lot of things, we don’t agree about everything. If I still believed Christianity were true, I wouldn’t deny it just to please her.
2) Did you read my post before commenting? If so, then you know that I think the doctrine of hell is perverse. Why then would you threaten me with “losing Paradise”? What am I to believe, that the True God sends people to hell for NOT BEING AN IDIOT and failing to believe ancient superstitions, mythologies, and dogmas made up by ignorant people? Is that what I’m supposed to believe? Give me a break.
3) How in the world could you believe there really was an “Adam and Eve”? Don’t you know any science? Are you a Young Earth Creationist? Do you believe in a literal global flood? If so, I have another series of questions, such as: A) How do you explain the continuous annual layers in the Antarctic ice going back 750,000 years? B) How do you explain that fact that there was no global extinction of all land animals in recent history? C) How do you explain that there is no genetic bottle neck 4000 years ago? D) Do you know anything of the DNA evidence that shows common descent? E) Have you ever read a single book on evolution written by an evolutionary scientist? F) How do you explain the diversity of species now, since they could not all have fit on the ark? Do you think they all evolved super-fast in the last 4000 years?
I would be delighted to discuss this more if you think you are able.
All the best,
Richard
Hey there William,
If your are trying to demonstrate how dogmatic religions destroy minds, you are doing a superb job! You do not strengthen your case when you align yourself with the Birthers.
But it looks like there is hope for you, since you at least give lip service to evidence and intelligence (in a backhanded sort of way). So let’s get to it: As far as I know, you have not presented any evidence that challenges the factual truth of anything I wrote in my OP or in any comments. So why not give it a try? If I have erred in anything, why not demonstrate it with logic and facts, rather than lunatic ravings like when you said “Your intellect is rubbish”?
Looking forward to seeing you wield the sparkling sword of your powerful intellect,
Richard
Richard,
What I notice from reading your comments to other people is that you have a trauma or an unjustified apprehension about being “dogmatic” about anything. Someone in your past made you feel bad about your convictions. If I insist that 2+2=4 ; am I stating a truth or am I dogmatic about my calculation? Once you know the truth, you should not be moved by anything or anyone. IF (and that’s a BIG ‘IF’) you are the same person who wrote the Bible Wheel book, I don’t understand how you could be moved from your faith. Only a wife with a satanic spirit could move a man from the truth. It reminds me of Eve; Job’s wife; King David’s wife; Moses’ wife; Jezebel; Salome and so on and so forth. Sometimes the Devil places ‘his’ people close to the ones he wants to get badly.
Anyway; I don’t believe in intellect at all. The exercise of human intellect began at the transgression of fallen angels who then became Nephilim and after their death, their spirits, not being able to go back to Heaven, became demons that roam the Earth trying to devour anyone who is not dogmatic about the Truth.
Jesus Christ is the Truth and you know it.
By the way, don’t tell me you believe in Jesus Christ but you quit Christianity. You deny there’s a Hell; thus making Christ a liar, since he talked about it as truth. You deny Adam and Eve, who are in the genealogy of Jesus. You deny creation and now adhere to the evolution theory. You deny the Scriptures and consider them abomination and full of aberrations. So, at this point, don’t say you believe in Jesus Christ.
Richard,
May I recommend this presentation to you; I hope you like it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76onHqQSAtI
Hello William,
I am Richards wife, this response is in reference to your statement:
“I don’t understand how you could be moved from your faith. Only a wife with a satanic spirit could move a man from the truth. It reminds me of Eve; Job’s wife; King David’s wife; Moses’ wife; Jezebel; Salome and so on and so forth. Sometimes the Devil places ‘his’ people close to the ones he wants to get badly. Anyway; I don’t believe in intellect at all.”
Your male bias is clearly revealed in your pathetic attempt to blame women for what you don’t understand. Just because it’s beyond your capabilities to comprehend how an intelligent man like Richard, can use his power of reason and knowledge to see the truth, doesn’t mean he was led astray by me. If you have any intelligence at all please use it and open your own eyes to the male bias of the Bible; everywhere one looks within its pages (written by men) one sees the desperate actions of men blaming women and seeking to control them, because they are too cowardly to take responsibility for their own actions. You are a shinning example of such behavior. In the future please refrain from making accusations about things you know nothing about, because you are the one who ends up looking like a fool.
To Rose,
First of all, this is Richard’s blog entitled “Why I Quit Christianity”. The very fact that you are intruding in the conversation is symptomatic of the sick relationship you have with your boy.
Secondly, I was not talking to you.
Thirdly, thank you for affirming that Richard is astray! That’s what I told him too!!
And last but not least, the Bible has no male bias or lack of responsibility. That is your ignorant and blind perception of Holy Scripture. You should be ashamed of your statements and repent of your stupidity. The Bible relates amazing stories of virtuous women such as Esther; Ruth; Naomi; Mary Magdalene; Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ and so on. You should read about them and learn something. Your existence is lacking the most important things in life. Stop being an intruder and a destroyer of your boy’s life.
Let me guess… Richard (the author of the Bible Wheel) no longer writes on “his” blogs. It is Rose – the intellectual feminist disguised as “Richard McGough”. It all makes sense now !
Richard and Rose,
This is from your own words:
“In late 2009 my wife and I began questioning our beliefs and have since left the faith…”.
Rose, are you going to take responsibility for Richard or not? Isn’t a virtuous woman suppossed to strengthen the faith in the family? What kind of woman are you?
Richard (??)
Red sweater = blood
Staircase = DNA
Blindness = Ignorance
DuMbo = 44 + 1
1 = Aleph (Mute or dumb)
Woman in white = false religion or doctrine = intellect = Sophism = Humanism = Satanism
6 = Universe/Creation
7 = Sabbath = Jesus Christ
“I am in a music store. There is a blind woman at the bottom of a one mile long staircase. She’s wearing a white robe. She said it took her over a year to climb out. She said the grace of God saved her. I climbed with her, reiterating her steps. I was then supposed to sit and meditate at the top of the stairs”.
Blind woman = wife
Bottom = BOTTOM
White robe = disguise = “…took her over a year to climb out” ????!!
” I climbed with her” = went astray
“reiterating her steps ” = following HER
It is clear from your dream that the woman in white is different from the woman in red from a previous dream. The woman in white is BLIND and is not covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. That’s why she is at THE BOTTOM of the staircase.
William – It looks like you need to be educated on the “open” nature of blog posting. If you want a private conversation you should email Richard, and besides that you brought me into your conversation with your false accusations. You are indeed a sorry example of a Christian.
You are the one showing your ignorance and stupidity, with your pathetic attempts to demean others, acting in a very unchristian like manner…you should be ashamed of yourself. The only one walking in blindness is you…trapped in a pit of religious dogma, unable to see the truth if it was in front of your face. All you have is lame insults that you hurl at people who do not believe the way you do…truly sad indeed.
Your denial of the Bible’s male bias truly shows your ignorance, just because Scripture mentions virtuous women has nothing to do with whether it’s biased or not…please grow a brain. Women in the Bible were treated as property and denied human rights that men were allowed, that my friend is the definition of bias.
Bias: “A preference for one thing over another, especially an unfair one.”
It would be appreciated by all if you would refrain from posting unless you have something intelligent to say instead of insults.
Rose, I know the truth offends and hurts; especially when it goes to the root of the problem. In this case, I’m just interpreting Richard’s dreams for his own benefit. I don’t gain anything from waking him up. I just want to tell him that from an objective point of view, it is obvious what is going on in his spirit, his mind and his relationship with you.
Richard used to “talk” and write like a Christian. Today, with your help, he has become one of the most arrogant, obnoxious, self-righteous, egocentric, pleasure seeking individuals I perceive. Your spiritual blindness, Rose, has been devastating to Richard. I hope you repent and OPEN YOUR EYES. You are the “blind woman at the bottom of the staircase” in Richard’s dream. You are so blind, you think you already “climbed out” of the mile-long staircase; when in fact you are at the bottom.
The sense of “integrity” Richard feels at the moment is laughable. He reminds me of certain people in the Vatican. Judgemental, self-righteous individuals. Blind guides of blind followers. Stop condeming Christianity, Christ, YHWH and the Holy Scriptures in public. Shame on both of you!
Rose and Richard, this is a quote from Richard’s response to a comment on this blog:
“Christ cannot be separated from these abominations any more than his Father Yahweh. Therefore, I cannot accept that the image of Christ in the NT is any more true than the image of Yahweh in the OT”.
This is but a sample of of your obnoxious utterances. Both of you are toxic. Repent and kneel before God and ask for forgiveness. Your “righteousness and integrity” are like filthy rags of a menstrual woman to God. Remember that.
This is for Richard; the obamabot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB9ETXbRxoc
Talk about backfire!
I am curious,what were you looking for when you discovered the Bible Wheel?
Richard, good to see you are back from your holiday. I’m looking forward to your response to all the messages I wrote to you since June!
Hey there William,
I haven’t been on vacation. On the contrary, I got a new job last June which has been taking up most of my time. And since my job is as a software engineer I’m at the computer most of the day already so it’s not often I find time to answer posts, let alone write new articles.
In reviewing your comments, I really haven’t seen much that is worthy of response. You spoke with excessive and entirely unnecessary rudeness to both Rose and myself, so I got the impression that you are not really interested in rational discourse. If that’s not the case, then ask whatever questions you like and I will answer.
All the best,
Richard
Hi Jennifer,
You had asked “I am curious,what were you looking for when you discovered the Bible Wheel?”. The answer is pretty basic. I was on a “spiritual quest” after spending about 5 years studying Physics and Mathematics at the university. After many years of “hard sciences” I became very interested in studying the whole gamut of esoteric literature – Astrology, I Ching, Bible, Tarot, Kabbalah. I began organizing my knowledge on the pattern of the ten sephiroth of the “Tree of Life” which are discussed in the Sepher Yetzirah (Book of Formation) which is one of the oldest texts of the traditional Jewish Kabbalah. The Sepher Yetzirah mentions the idea that God put the 22 Hebrew letters in a circle (galgal) and I thought that was a pretty good way to chart all the information concerning each letter. I correlated the ordered lists in the Bible, such as the Ten Commandments, the Seven Days of Creation, and the Seven Seals of Revelation, with the corresponding letters of the Hebrew alphabet on the wheel. Then one day I noticed good correlations with the first few books of the Bible, e.g. Genesis (Creation, beginning) naturally correlated with Aleph, Exodus, where the Tabernacle (God’s House) naturally correlates with Bet (second letter that means “House”), and so on. So I thought to put the books on the wheel, and noticed that I could place all 66 books on three cycles, and that’s how the Bible Wheel was born. It happened on May 14, 1995.
You can read a bit more about my motivation and “where I was at” in my post Why I Became A Christian. You also might find Looking for Dumbo interesting.
Please feel free to ask any follow up questions. I’ve been pretty busy so sometimes my answers are slow, but I do enjoy answering.
All the best,
Richard
Richard, you got the right impression. I’m not interested in what you call “rational discourse”. Is that what you think you have with everyone else on your blogs? LOL
By the way, you are no teacher, therefore I don’t have anything to ask you. Instead, I’m teaching you a truth about your mind and your dreams. Don’t get annoyed just because I interpreted your dream to your disadvantage.
Good luck with your new job.
William,
You did not “interpret” my dream so much as use it as a convenient way to spew your filthy hatred at me. And your interpretation is manifestly absurd from a Christian perspective because that dream played a very important role in strengthening my faith and led directly to the proclamation that Jesus Christ is Lord and remains as one of the strongest subjective reasons I would have to believe. It struck me as a miracle. For you to try to sully it with you perverse mind twisted by the evil dogmas of fundamentalist Christianity only encourages me to do all that I can to free more minds from the shackles of your pathetic religion.
All the best,
Richard
PS: I think I need to start a new thread. This one has over three hundred responses which makes the page over a MB and it sometimes doesn’t display correctly.
Hey Richard,
Bought a couple of copies of the Biblewheel I think already a decade ago. Time flies.
Read your blog, especially the questions/ struggles so many have and your current concept of God. What happened? Maybe this link puts (some, not all) things in perspective:
http://carm.org/god-of-old-testament-a-monster
All the best to you and Rose, especially in your quest to find God (hint: explore the clearest representation of God and Center Point of the Bible(wheel), Jesus Christ 😉
John 1:18; 17:3
Jer. 29:13
Is. 45
Hebr. 11:6
John 17:3
Gr. from the Netherlands
And last but not least:
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints…
Ephesians 1:17-23
Hi Richard
I could understand why someone would stop going to church.
I also did this many years ago, when I became disillusioned by the congregation.
I have studied the Bible in depth over a recent number of years,
and have placed my studies on my website to share with others.
If you have time please have a look at http://www.tangram.co.za/y7k.pdf
I would like to hear your comments on this idea.
I believe Hell is the place where unrighteous spirits are kept until the 2nd resurrection.
I also believe that the unrighteous will be destroyed in the lake of fire quickly and efficiently.
The time of torment will be from their death till the end of the 1000 year Sabbath described
in Luke 16 and Revelation 20. I believe that their torment will end in the lake of fire, as Jesus
stated in Matthew 10:28 also Revelation 20:13-14. This is the only scenario which I find fits
all scriptures.
Kind regards
leigh
Hi Richard, my honest and completely unsolicited opinion: I think you got burned out! The Bible Wheel patterns are unmistakable and can’t possibly be explained by cognitive bias if others independently notice them, but you may never again be in a headspace where you can accept the most clear explanation. You ever see when rock bands are interviewed about their last hit album and they always look like they want to punch the interviewer in the face because they’d rather talk about their new material? You were doing this for over a decade.
Also, having Christian beliefs is inherently stressful even if we don’t make them public. The bible makes it pretty clear that God doesn’t really like us and that we don’t really like him. It doesn’t matter if he occasionally loves us. If he flies off the handle on occasion and abuses us, but then turns around and lavishes us with generosity, this is too unstable to work around. If we feel obligated to witness, it creates resentment.
None of this has anything to do with the truth of his existence though. I don’t think your points above about doctrine of hell or abominations really have much logically to do with belief. I don’t disbelieve the existence of a lion because he mauls a gazelle. I just keep my distance from the lion. Even if you say it contradicts God’s own statements about himself, this doesn’t have much logically to do with belief. People don’t become nonexistent if they self promote.
I guess I’m saying I think you are somewhat confusing what you want to be true with what you suspect to be true deep down.
The quality of your life has improved. You’ve relaxed and you’re healthy. I’d take this over going nuts like Jeremiah or Ezekiel. How many of us visiting your site and posting with you actually cared about your well being? Seriously, what’s more important – proving the truth of existence in a heated internet debate or walking through the woods with your wife? I tried showing some of the Bible Wheel patterns to believers before, and I abruptly stopped when I didn’t get a reaction anything like what I expected. It’s not worth it – it’s too much. You either have the eyes and ears or you don’t.
If you revisit the Bible Wheel material someday, my honest advice is: Don’t cast your pearls before swine. Don’t feel the need to carry water for God. Screw the Christian community – too many scribes and Pharisees. Don’t feel the need to ignore science or hippie lifestyle or whatever else. It’s not about a grand system of beliefs, it’s about taking care of yourself. You’re only human. Best wishes.
Hi David,
I loved your comments so much I answered them in a post of their own called David comments on the Bible Wheel and Why I Quit Christianity.
Richard
David,
I find your comments about Christianity very interesting. I too was raised a Christian and have been both studying and teaching in what you might call traditional Christian environments. I too have found myself in a strange place. I really can’t be considered a Christian an longer for a variety of reasons which I’d be happy to share with you, should you desire to discuss them and chat.
However, my path has taken down a different path. I still believe the Bible is God’s word, I just don’t believe we have been reading it or interpreting it correctly. Let me give you just one example of this and please do respond and tell me your thoughts.
A key tenant of Christianity is that we are sinner, all because of what Adam and Eve did in the Garden, that we cannot have eternal life without two primary things, repentance and the payment of the price of sin. I have been writing a book, of which I have the first four chapters done, to unveil what the Bible really teaches. Here are the examples of what I’ve found that appear to contract modern teaching?
Can we have eternal life and be in SIN? Christians say no, but what do we do with Genesis 3:22 where the Bible tells us man was banned from the Garden of Eden so they could not eat of the tree of life and live forever? You may see this as a contradiction while I see it as our misunderstanding the entire book and what it’s trying to tell us.
Same topic, another example. We can’t possibly dream of living in perfect harmony with God’s laws or perhaps better stated, God’s way of life. Yet in Genesis 4:7, God is speaking to Cain, after the fall of mankind and just before he’s killed Abel, and God tells Cain that sin is at the door and wants him, then it says, but you must master it (or rule over it, depending on your version). How is that possible? Ah, but it is, even though Christianity does not teach it that way.
One more item, turn to Leviticus chapter 4:2. God provides Moses with the sacrificial system that all Christians point to as the predestined example of what Christ was to do on the cross. Here it says, When anyone sins UNINTENTIONALLY. Wow, if you look at all of the sin offerings, they all say that. Wow. So what happens with intentional sins? Oops, not covered by the sacrificial system, therefore not covered by Christ.
Most people will say one of two things, they will either say, I am misinterpreting the Bible, because here is says……… Time out people, the sacrificial system is the source. It is the shadow of what was to come. So we must look to the source to inform us of what is taking place and interpret the balance of scripture accordingly.
The Bible says the wages of sin is death. Is that an imposed value or a natural result of. And if it is a natural result of sin, yet the tree of life can override this natural state, what about sin causes death? We must look at the Bible in an entirely new way and be willing to go where it leads. A daring challenge.
Other will say, it’s full of contradictions. Perhaps it is and I’ll respect anyone’s opinion on that matter. But let me draw yet another conclusion to demonstrate that it just may be the way we interpret the Bible.
Sodom and Gomorah. A place that lives in infamy for many Christians, after all, that is the place where God really punished Gays and Lesbians. Or did He? Take a closer look. A city where news of strangers coming into town spreads like wildfire. Men come to the home of Lot and demand the strangers so they can have their way with them. Lot offers his daughters, virgins, and the people won’t have it. They’re struck with blindness and still they won’t relent.
But wait a moment. Did you notice how the news of strangers coming into town spread like wildfire. Don’t you suppose for a moment that news of the men being blinded might have spread as well? Lot goes to his daughters and their husbands only to have his warnings fall on deaf ears. I don’t know about you, but if something like that happened in my town and then a warning was being provided, I would probably leave, just to be on the safe side.
The next day the entire valley is destroyed, so much so people believe the Dead Sea is the site where these cities stood. Many people think this is the end of the story, but it is not. Lot’s daughters, remember the virgins he offered? HIs daughters got Lot stone cold drunk and then had sex with him to conceive children.
The daughters knew this was wrong or they wouldn’t have gotten Lot drunk. That is an admission they knew it was wrong. But notice this, God saved people willing to engage in incest, but not gays or lesbians? Hmm. Is it that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorah because they were sexual deviants? If so, answer the question of Lot’s daughters. Or is it that the cities were destroyed because they were a danger, a real physical danger to any person who might suppose to pass through the area. So violent, so determined to impose their will, so intolerant of others that they were willing to do bodily harm to any stranger who happened on their doorstep.
Why do I propose this? Because God saved sexual deviants from Sodom and Gomorah, therefore it can’t possibly have been about sex, sexual preferences or related topics. People, look at the story with an open mind. Look at what it is really saying, not what we have been conditioned to believe it is saying.
To that end, David, I agree with your move away from Christianity. While our paths are different, I respect yours and wanted to share these thoughts primarily to provide more color for those who staunchly hold to Christianity rather than studying and thinking for themselves.
I have four chapters of my manuscript completed and will continue my work until the Book of Genesis is done and I find someone to publish it. I would welcome your interest in reviewing what I have written and perhaps using it as a basis for further discussion. I learn every day.
Ben
Hi Ben, I’m responding here to keep the flow of the thread despite the large size of the page, but feel free to move the conversation to the thread Richard linked above if you wish. I wonder if either I’m misinterpreting you or vice versa, or if you meant to address someone else. Anyway, I will try to answer your post since I thought it was pretty interesting.
I am in fact not moving away from Christianity. I am still a believer with more or less the same beliefs for the last 18 years. Also, I was not raised as a Christian. Despite being baptized as an infant, I was raised in an atheistic culture and never attended church. I’ve been to church services only a few times in my life; once I was just playing organ. So I became a Christian by belief as an adult, but culturally feel more at home with atheists.
Your book sounds interesting – it looks like you’re pouring a lot of thought into it! I think several of the points you’re describing are very reasonable. I want to comment on a few.
I also believe the Bible is God’s word and being misinterpreted. I believe God intended it that way since he should be intelligent enough to understand its clarity in advance. I think he deliberately obfuscated most of it for reasons only he knows. I think we have a big hint in Luke 8:10: “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing they may not understand.'”
Regarding the doctrine of sin, I think God’s stance as revealed in the Bible is simply unfair. People are human. We make mistakes. Don’t create us and then get mad at us because we do what we were programmed to do. I have no idea why God’s stance is this way, but from our point of view as people, it’s an overwhelming burden. I keep in mind 2 Tim 4:1: “In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge” Jesus is judge and remember what judgment means. He gets to bang the gavel, or he has no power after all. Judges are interpreters of law, and Jesus gave fairly frequent descriptions of his relative sense of values during his ministry.
Regarding Sodom, the Bible actually has a verse explicitly addressing this issue. Ezekiel 16:48 gives: “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.” I’m not sure how closely this matches the description of Sodom you meant to convey, but that’s straight from the horse’s mouth.
Your other speculations sound fairly reasonable, but I have no idea whether or not they’re the best interpretation and I’m not really educated in that field anyway. My biblical understanding is just dwarfed by many of the posters here! My criticisms of God in these posts are firmly rooted in the basis that I believe he is my father in heaven and that he hears my criticisms and may punish me harshly for them.
Not sure if this answers any of what you were asking, but good luck with your book!
Your reasoning to discount the faith is based on a very restricted limited perspective .First of all your perception on the doctrine hell and it’s eternal punishment is based on your finite vantage point within this linear time space continuum . God has no limits and sees the end before the beginning that is why he is the I AM not the I was or the I will be. Eternity is not captive to time but time is captive to eternity and anyone who try’s to define eternity by there finite mind has really no idea what eternity really it is .
God is righteous and loving and will in no way cast out any who call on him .Punishment is for those who decide through their vanity that he does exist and if he does he his impotent at best. God does not send those to hell but rather those who do not love him will live eternity (whatever that is) without him.
He is beyond our comprehension but not our apprehension .That is why the just shall by Faith not sight, not cerebral conception , nor sensory usage . I will leave you with these scriptures Isaiah 55:8,9
and the 55th book 2 Timothy 1: 8,9
Isaiah 55:8, 9 NIV
““For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
2 Timothy 1:8, 9 NIV
“So do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord or of me his prisoner. Rather, join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God. He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,”
Hey there Mike,
Your comments seem to be self-contradictory. You speak as if you know all about “eternity” but then you say that “anyone who try’s to define eternity by there finite mind has really no idea what eternity really it is.” So if you didn’t use your “finite mind” to define eternity, where did you get your definition and how do you know it is correct? And if you can’t say anything about it based on logic and facts why do you bother speaking at all? If you words are not even defined they are literally meaningless. Think of me like Voltaire who said “If you wish to converse with me, define your terms”.
Your idea that God said he is the “I AM” rather than the “I WILL BE” is not actually true. The word translated in the KJV as “I AM” is the qal imperfect 1st person singular which is almost always translated as “I will be”. Indeed, that’s how it is translated in Exodus 3:12 (Certainly I WILL BE (EHYEH) with thee), just two verses prior to its mistranslation as “I AM” in vs. 3:14.
I am surprised you claim to have so much knowledge about “eternity” since your mind is no less limited then mine.
Hi Richard
I have also been troubled by the same things that you were with your Christian walk, my current understanding is;
The Doctrine of Hell
“I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment”
– Great, neither can I. The Doctrine of Hell is not true, there is eternal punishment but not eternal punishing.
2)”The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.
Killing of all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan”
– BibleGod made the human race with free will.
With that free will we all individually chose to Sin.
God is holy and righteous and Sin = death (body and soul)
But, God also loves to the extent that he allows us time to repent from Sin
In the case of the Canaanites it was 400 years.
In the case of you and I it’s our life time.
The potter can do what he likes with his pot (creation). Who are we, as the pot, get to say what is right and wrong?
3) “God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.”
– I don’t understand this statement – he either does or does not. You can find many people to attest to that he does. Are they all wrong ?
4) You also make mention of your dislike for some Christian religion(s)
– I agree.
– Christian Religion is man’s attempt to know God (or manipulate other men).
– Christian Faith is BibleGods attempt to reach man with the Gospel
Question.
Why do you stop at the Bible Wheel as being the only ‘mystery’.
The Christian faith presents many
– fulfilled prophecy
– evidence of design in all life forms
regards
Dean
Hey there Dean,
1) If you disagree with hell, then you disagree with orthodox Christianity. That’s fine, of course, but after a while it starts to seem pretty obvious to me that it’s all made up and there’s no reason to beleive any of it. Ultimately, there really is no such thing as “Christianity” but rather just a diverse and contradictory set of “Christianities.” Why do you believe any of it?
Your answers to point #2 don’t work for me.
2a) human free will is not an answer because I wasn’t saying there was any problem with the fact that humans sin. The problem is that God commands immoral things like genocide, slavery, and sexism in the Bible.
2b) It is true that the potter can do what he wants, but that doesn’t mean that he can do anything and call it good. If you say that we can’t judge him, then we can’t say he is good because that is a judgment too. Paul’s assertion in Romans 9 is just a “slap down” – he simply tells believers to shut up and believe whatever he says. Basically, he admits he has no answers to this question.
3) When I say that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers, I am saying that he may (or may not) answer a few random prayers here or there (as people claim). I allow for that because I can not prove it either way. But what I can prove is that God is absolutely UNTRUSTWORTHY in the most literal sense that he cannot be actually trusted to do anything for anyone in any situation. That was my point.
Your distinction between the “Christian Religion” and the “Christian Faith” seems like sophistry to me. They are the same thing.
Your suggestion that there are fulfilled prophecies is demonstrably false. See my article Two Thousand Reasons to Believe Dr. Hugh Ross Might Not Be Entirely Credible.
The argument for “intelligent design” of life is filled with outrageous flaws. The folks who push it just don’t understand the basic elements of biology and evolutionary science.
I stop at the Bible Wheel as a “mystery” because I cannot explain it, but neither can I believe it implies that the Bible and its God are true.
Great questions! Keep em coming!
Richard
I think you started a great work, however you became lazy. Stop being so emotional and go after the answers you cannot find. Also, stop looking for others to answer your questions, your smart, go after it and dig deeper.
By the way, the Bible Wheel is awesome! Thank you for making it.
#realtalk
Hey Richard,
I found this website through your comments on Sean Carroll’s blog. After learning about The Bible Wheel (TBW), I must say that I am fascinated! What an interesting concept!
What I am really curious about, however, is this: why leave TBW website up? Are you happy knowing that Christians can still use it to defend their faith? Or, do you have a hard time pulling it down because you spent countless hours on it? Maybe you leave it up in hopes that people will find “version 3.0” and leave the faith like you did? I am guessing reason #3 as you clearly go to great lengths to address all of the Christian comments that are clearly aimed at re-saving your soul. Maybe you are hoping to further introduce doubt?
Am I way off? Is there another reason?
Thanks,
Mike S.
Hey there Mike,
Your questions were so good I decided they deserved a post of their own to answer. Here it is:
If I am an atheist, Why have I left the Bible Wheel site up?
Your comments would be most welcome.
Richard
Hi. I have a copy of your book and, while I disagree with many of your conclusions since they are viewed through a ‘Christian’ doctrine lens, I still find the book worthy of study. I too, have walked away from ‘Christianity’ to discover the Hebrew Roots of my faith. Yes, I still believe, just not in the doctrines, holidays and interpretations of the Bible I grew up with.
I found it really interesting to see how you plugged the Bible books etc., into the Hebrew Letters. What a shame (if you have not, for I don’t know what you have done) that you haven’t taken that walk further.
I too, have shared your confusion and find it difficult to accept some of the directives (like killing all the men, women and children in Canaan etc.), but a conversation recently with one of my friends gave me a little ‘rest’ on that regard.
Much of the prohibition to not mingle with the ‘nations’ had to do with keeping the DNA pure and undefiled from disease causing genetics. Sounds absurd when I write it, but it is the only thing that makes sense.
If you have a curiosity, I would recommend reading or listening to some Torah Teachers. Not Rabbis necessarily, but to those of us who are trying to return to the original instructions given to us by the Creator. I am not in favor of any form of ‘churchianity’…but only the pure word (even when the plain translations have error that can be sought out for those who want to know the truth)
check out the Jonah Code (Michael Rood), or Words Mean Things (Agri-bio Linguistics) by Bradford Scott to begin.
If you think the ‘design’ of the Bible Wheel will blow your mind, check out how Yeshua (Jesus) accomplished a fulfillment of the Feasts of YHVH (found in Lev 23) and how understanding the Spring Feasts (His death/resurrection/Pentecost (Shavuot)) and the Fall Feasts (proclaiming his birth and his Return to come) are all prophetic shadow-pictures may return you to faith in the Word found in the Bible.
Just for fun, take Him at His Word and REST in Him on the Sabbath day. It is still in effect. We have found it to be a profound experience to have found this blessing in our lives.
You mentioned answered prayer: Pro 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
Yeshua told us He didn’t come to abolish the law, and that those who didn’t believe Moses wouldn’t believe him.
Torah observance is the key to being heard. Why do we think He will listen to us when we ignore His instruction? Yeshua said that all the Law and the Prophets hang upon Love of God and Love our Neighbor. Therefore, the Torah is based, teaches and personifies Love. It is our instruction book in righteousness. It isn’t ‘grace through faith’ as taught in the mainstream church….Challenge what you have been taught, but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
Did you know that by studying the Hebrew, the entirety of the Salvation Message is found in the very first Word of Genesis? That to me is another ‘mystery’ that cannot be explained away. Shalom.
Hello Julia Glattfelt
You said:
I fail to see how you could find any sense in the notion your friend suggested that the motive of slaughtering the pagan peoples was to keep the Hebrews DNA pure. If that were the case then why does the Bible say in passages like Numbers 31:15-18 and Deut. 21:10, that the Hebrew men are allowed to take captive virgin women from pagan nations for their wives? All the pagans have the same “disease causing genetics” as you say, so being a virgin would not change the makeup of their DNA.
No amount of justification can ever erase the blatant immoral actions that the Bible attributes to its god … it only makes the person doing the justifying look cold-hearted, cruel and uncharitable.
Regards,
Rose
Christianity is a beautiful word. The root of this word is Christ. There is no more beautiful and loving person than He is. He is our treasured Creator.
The suffix -ian means belonging to. A Christian is person who belongs to Christ.
A Christian upholds Christanity! The suffix -ity turns the adjective Christian into a noun.
Everything about Christ is honorable. It is Satan who seeks to discredit His name and one of his tactics is to attack the words Christian, Christianity and above all Christ! He is a liar. Resist and desire to reject his lies!
Come to Christ. He is pure love. Say “Yes” to compassionare Christ!
Josef Sefton
Hi Richard,
I found your site to be really interesting and informative over the years, and was surprised as any to read this page. I, too, had been a christian all my life, and then recently, in about 2011 or so, a friend turned away from the faith and it lead me to also deeply examine some of the preconceptions and my own beliefs about a book and religion I’ve had my whole life. I believe the bible does tell us to use our logic as much as we possibly can. “Come let us REASON together” it says. I believe that a God would not give us a logical brain if His point was that we simply not use it. So I think it’s really great that you are reexamining your faith and your beliefs as I did.
After much soul searching, I concluded that many of today’s christians just don’t know the true God very well, and much of what the vast majority of people believe, at least here in North America, is based on snippets and one liners they heard in Sunday school. As a result, this paints God in a certain light that is, quite simply, not all that accurate. Sunday school says God is good, just, kind, faithful, and full of love, and that is true, but they don’t ever mention that He is also vengeful, punishing, prone to changing His mind, jealous, and manipulative. I blame this on many of the church leaders who try to pitch God like a cheap used car – tells us all the great features about it, and none of the bad ones. So when a believer actually picks up the Bible and starts to read it and study it, they see this whole other side of God they’ve never been exposed to before, and their entire image of Him is ruined. God takes us just as we are, yet we try to cover up or dismiss some of His more shocking aspects. Because of this, I always put a warning out whenever someone says they want to read the bible through that the God you know right now may not be the God you like when you finally finish the whole thing. At times, I wonder if the is a God who is worthy of our worship.
Another belief I think a lot of christians hold on to is that the Bible is perfect. This is not true, and it is told through the interpretation of many different authors from many walks of life through many years of history. Like a game of telephone, they are going to report what they see through their own eyes and through their own prejudices, and of course it’s going to contain some inaccuracies. If the Bible were perfect, wouldn’t it be something worthy of worship? And if God himself wrote His entire word on a slab of stone or papyrus, people would begin worshipping that. I don’t think God really cares all that much about accuracy anyways, as he would’ve just told people Himself what He was going to do, instead of send intermediaries like Moses, Jonah, and other prophets to speak on His behalf. That being said, there is a consistency when these writers speak to God, and what I found to be a very distinct personality, style of speech, methods of getting things done, and even a type of sense of humor about God that would’ve been very difficult to pull off in that span of time and with that amount of varying authors. Another thing that made me keep my faith is the consistency and accuracy of dozens of prophecies in the Bible about Jesus, written hundreds of years before He was born, kept by the Jews, who hated him to this day and think He is a fraud. Where you find prophecy, you find the hand of Yahweh. And foretelling future events is something humans have been absolutely lousy at throughout their history.
In conclusion, I was left with many more questions about many more things than answers that I could possibly research in this lifetime, but in the end, I do believe that the Bible is a supernatural book, and it seems more logical to conclude that the God of the Bible is more likely to exist than not. The wonder of it all is that He cares enough to meddle in our affairs and try to redeem some of us. In the end, we only have one lifetime, and can never know 100% of anything, and it does require an eventual leap of faith. But not such a great one as many people believe.
I hope you continue to search, and may God bless and take care of you, regardless of which conclusion you finally come upon.
Hi Richard,
Maybe I can use some story, since a parable is always better than some kind-hearted encouragement or discouragement etc. Jesus used them for reasons:
One day you created a thing called “bible wheel”. You created a physical book for it and deemed it perfect and good and counted it an accomplishment. You gave “bible wheel” a free will and a commandment, telling it not to eat a bottle of ink, or it will be shredded up. You then commanded it to be published and multiply and sell its way to the bestseller top chart. Anyway, your ex-subordinate got wind of your coming best-seller and decided to create a mess out of it. He managed to convince “bible wheel”, and it did eat the bottle before it was published, and many additional words were added to it. Although now it is puffed up full of knowledge and insight, it distorted your original message and no longer exhibit your original idea.
Although it is now apparent you definitely need to shred the book for it will not display your original idea to the public, you decided to save the book by using correction fluid on the book’s ink, in the near future, as your love was too great for them. Nonetheless, with the help of your ex-subordinate, the ink in the duplicate copies of the “bible wheel” smudged so greatly that it grieved your heart to see that all your works came to something totally ugly and unreadable. Hence, you decided to cause a flood to make the books to be destroyed at the warehouse rather than be a laughing stock when released to the public. However, you found a book not smudged like others do, and it is called “bible wheel – noah edition”, and you decided to save it, and use it as your basis for correction to get back the original idea that you intent to publish later on. So you put it in a water-tight container and all was history.
About a few thousand days later, you decided to send your son to do the work of correcting the ink within “bible wheel” with correction fluid at the warehouse. But you do not want your ex-subordinate to accuse you of using your author authority to go correcting the books as the rule of the field is that free will was given by you to the books. Your ex-subordinate, now guarding the warehouse, would also not allow such correction to happen as it would dampen his desire to see your works in a mess. So, you sent your son through a special printing machine and he was instantly transformed into a perfect book that exhibit your original intent, successfully blending within the “bible wheel” community.
You decided to put your son to work for about 33 minutes and take him back to be with you after he has done what you intended him to do. Anyway, your son, being special and perfect, was envied by other books and was forced to be shredded in a cross-like pattern, as they could not believe he was sent by you. The correction fluid was instantly splashed on all the books and the smudged ink was covered by the correction fluid.
Now the last step in order for the books to be published is to go in front of a drying machine called “Believe & Follow in Jesus Christ”, before the correction fluid can take permanent effect to cover the smudged ink.
To answer your three question in your fallaway from grace, I got three questions for you as well:
1 & 2. You want to send the thoroughly smudged books to the shredder, and the shredded pieces to be burned until ashes in the furnace. Upon hearing this, one of the “bible wheel” books said bad things about you and said you’re evil for the act of shredding his kind and will not believe you, the kind author, would actually command the shredding of his kind and commit burning in the furnace, for they are too cruel acts. “bible wheel” knew nothing of your higher intent and only believe the acts of shredding and burning are cruel, so it decided to renounce you and will never believe in you. If you’re the author, what will you do?
3. The same “bible wheel” book also said you never flip his page or other smudged “bible wheel” books to attend to their needs before reaching the “believe & follow Jesus Christ” drying machine. However, you were always constantly looking at the books and adjusting them in the best possible angles in order for them to benefit the most from the drying machine and come out as the best product. If you’re the author, what will you do?
To cut the story short… Go figure the rest.
What’s up, just wanted to say, I liked this post. It was practical.
Keep on posting!
Searchers for truth, the LORD isn’t jealous!
How can someone who is sinless be jealous? That is an impossability.
But He is “jealous” that we understand His worth, for He knows how much He can bless us!
He isn’t prone to change His mind. His mind is settled on
every issue pertaining to life.
He isn’t vindictive but He does justly punish and take revenge!
God isn’t manipulative!
A manipulative person
exercises unscrupulous control or influence over a person or situation.
A manipulative person is sly and selfish!
T scheming, devious and conniving, unscrupulous, and disingenuous.
The LORD God is none of these things.
Satan, the rebellious one is manpulative.
The LORD is selfless which is the very opposite of anything associated with the word manipulative!
We can know 100% that the LORD exists because He reveals Himself to those who earnestly seek Him.
Faith is His gift to man. We don’t have to leap up and down for it!
If the desire of our heart is daily to trust Him then we will be assisted to trust Him, for He grows our faith!
You write that the Bible isn’t perfect, yet the Lord who is perfect teaches that it is infallible!
God cares about accuracy and His using man doesn’t make this inspired book inaccurate, but rather reveals the genius of Our Creator.
Richard,
I really appreciate your open heart on the subject of Christianity. What exactly does that mean? Christianity was identified as the culprit during the dark ages of Catholicism trying to stamp out Protestants who opposed the “True” Church with valid arguments against her (aren’t you glad you don’t live in that era). Personally I didn’t see that as “Christian.” Your arguments against the God you understand presented in the Bible have fallacies to them. The passage you have quoted attributing God to killing the men, women, and children, and requiring His chosen people to do this immoral dastardly deed, is taking it completely out of context. These same people in the promised land were given warnings prior to that time to change their ways. Their lives were totally all about satisfying their flesh, which took on all forms such as listed in the book of Galatians in the passage of the “works of the flesh.” The Amalekites and all the other “ties” are examples to us of the flesh, and is why Paul wrote that the flesh has to die (all of it) in order for the Spirit to live. It is a brutal thing, but necessary. I think some have confused Christianity with religion, and it is easy to do. I believe that religion is man’s approach to God, and Christianity is God’s approach to man. This is seen in God’s instruction to Moses in building the tabernacle. God first told Moses about the Holy of Holies (the last place the priest would visit), than outward to the gate (the first place visited) Naturally, man would come to God through the gate, then advancing forward, but from God’s perspective, he started with where God dwelt. I relate to you when you point out those that have insisted on certainties that were not found certain. Those that have spoken in the name of Christ, and have been found unreliable. The scripture that says, “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free,” the word, truth IS intellectual in the original greek, not spiritual. God gave us a mind and brain to use, and He is pleased when we use it. Keep using yours, it is too precious to waste. I was once in a church that claimed to be christian, but was more cultish (not cult) in behavior. People didn’t think for themselves, when I finally left after 26 years of bondage to it, I felt real freedom. One difference between us, and I am sure there are more than one, is I didn’t leave Christianity, just this local church assembly.
Thank you for your time,
Timothy
PS By the way I am one of those “answered” prayers you asked about. I was prayed for after I had been in a horrible car accident when I was 7 years old. I lived through it after months in a hospital, and a year at home with therapy. My parents were told I would not live, then I would not walk, then I would not walk without an aid. My parents prayed, and I am walking today, without any aids of any kind. I am 56 years old and have been through a lot of experiences, all of which I have to say that there indeed is a God that still answers prayers.
Hey there Timothy,
I answered your comment in a new blog post called Is the Genocide in the Bible Justified. Please answer there (if you are so inclined).
All the best,
Richard
Dear Richard Amiel McGough,
I’ve been reading through your blog posts just recently, and am not sure exactly where you stand. There is a bit of misunderstanding it seems to what the Gospel really means. I’m not saying I know more than anyone, however, I am saying that we all should continue to keep an open mind. I would like to introduce to you someone that you might not have heard of yet. His name is John Crowder. I have a challenge for you, which is this… Read his recent book “Cosmos Reborn” , and then tell me what you think. I’m not going to tell that you will definitely come back to the faith, however, I am asking you to consider taking the time to look and see if what John has to say, does not resound within not only you, but anyone else who reads. I am not a Christian, I am a son of Christ Jesus, big difference. I look forward to your response.
Lolgus
Comments on this thread are now closed because the number has grown too large (368). I have reposted the article here. Comments in the new thread are welcome.