When I first discovered the Bible Wheel in 1995, I soon became convinced that it was designed by “God.” My conception of God at that time was pretty much in line with with the “Guy-in-the-sky” style God of traditional Christian theism. I have since come to realize that I do not, indeed cannot, believe in that kind of God at all. I now identify myself as a “non-theist” and “non-Christian.” But this led to a big problem. All the evidence for the seemingly supernatural design of the Bible Wheel remains valid. Despite all the changes in my understanding of God and Christianity, none of the basic conclusions about the Bible Wheel have changed. So how do I explain its existence? How am I to understand how it came to be? After two years of seriously thinking about this, I think I am starting to get a basic understanding.
I’m beginning to understand that the Bible Wheel is something like a “collective dream image” produced by our collective cosmic consciousness. The universe as a whole is like a dream in the “Mind of God” of which we are all parts. There is no “agent” who “designs” things consciously any more than you or I “design” our dreams. They are a natural product of our minds, and so is all reality the natural product of the Collective Cosmic Mind. This strongly coheres with the insights of psychologist Carl Jung, especially in light of his observation that many patients draw circular mandalas with crosses in them when they reach psychic unity. This is an extremely exciting possibility since we could be witnessing the birth of the Cosmic Religion that will unite all humanity. The Bible Wheel looks like a Divine Dream Mandala representing the unity of all religions manifested by our unified Collective Cosmic Consciousness. I’m just beginning to understand this. It seems to be the best solution since the concept of a “personal God” that “intervenes” in the world (a “Zeus-style god”) seems impossible to me for many reasons which I will be explaining in future posts.
As you are no longer a “Christian”, Richard, Who do believe Christ is? Joel
Hi Joel,
Good question. First and foremost, Jesus is a literary figure. He is the central character in the literature of the New Testament. Beyond that it is anyone’s guess. Knowledgeable folks have been debating the historicity of Jesus for years without anyone coming to a firm conclusion. There is little solid evidence to settle the question, so it is really a matter of personal opinion and I don’t feel a need to form such an opinion either way at this time.
OPINION
Ever seen “The Companion Bible” of E.W.Bullinger? c.1890. Many appendixes on multiple subjects, but he seems to base much of his ‘opinion’ on the way Scripture is structured. Personally I couldn’t follow his logic there, but found his other subjects mostly contrary to what nominal Christians have to say. And his books on Numbers, Witness of the Stars, and Figures of Speech were helpful to me.
Just a suggestion.. you may find something I’ve overlooked. Hopeahope..
I own Bullinger’s “Numbers in Scripture.” It is interesting, but I don’t think his methodology is valid in general.
It’s funny; I just noticed tonight that this was NOT a Christian based sight – must have missed something before when I visited. Richard, try to imagine this in it’s entirety; Jesus Christ IS LIFE – everything else is an illusion. Please stop and consider the REALITY of this statement.
Take care, Dan
Hey Dan,
Thanks for your comment. This most definitely has been a “Christian based site” for the last ten years since I set it up in 2001. And the Bible Wheel book was written from a very “fundamentalist Christian” perspective. Here is how I stated my personal belief in my FAQ:
But in the last couple of years I have re-evaluated my understanding of God, the Bible, and Christianity. This led me to the following conclusions:
1) The Bible has many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations that it attributes to God (e.g. Num 31). Therefore, it cannot be the “inerrant and infallible Word of God.” But curiously, this does not contradict any of the evidence for the apparently supernatural design of the Bible revealed in the Bible Wheel. It only means that the traditional Christian interpretation of Scripture is wrong. “Something else” is going on with the Bible. I am only now beginning to understand what that “something” might be, as explained in the article above.
2) The “personal God” of traditional Christian theism who directs the universe, intervenes in human affairs, and answers prayers does not exist. I came to this conclusion by simply observing reality and noting that there is no sign of such a God, and that if such a God existed, there most certainly would be evidence. For example, all (non-delusional) Christians know that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. And neither is there any evidence of a God who could have warned the 200,000 (mostly Christian) residents of Haiti to get out of town to avoid the earthquake he knew was coming. Neither did he warn the Japanese of the scheduled tsunami. Such negligence would damn any moral agent capable of giving a simple warning to save lives. Thus, the universe obviously operates as if there were no personal God who intervenes and guides events for the good of humanity.
Now as for your request that I meditate upon the statement that “Jesus Christ IS LIFE.” OK, I’m doing that. Here is my meditation: if that statement is true, then everyone alive has Jesus in them (he lights every person), and all the Christian doctrines about folks being lost and going to hell are false, and all we need to do is live in the light of Christ (without necessarily knowing his name, of course, since everyone has life [= Jesus] but not everyone knows/knew his name). So all is good! Thanks!
Please feel free to write with any followups.
All the best.
I was just wondering how you even know what you are saying is true?? How can anyone know except with personal experience and since I have experienced a personal God then I just have to say that you just have not experienced truely the Christianity that you so beautifully write about in your book. Being raised a self-realizationist myself and searching for God for many many years I can testify that there is a “Father in Heaven” apart from the created universe..and a personal Heavenly Father, Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Maybe you just haven’t really known Jesus, that something blocked you from tht and created this seed of doubt and unbelief…I love your book and page 39 is extemely annointed but then your statements on your blog is very confusing to people that might really want to recieve the word into their hearts. Just wondering what happened to you??? Sincerely Renee
Hi Renee,
I really appreciate your questions! I am sure many others are wondering about the same things. You ask how anyone knows anything – well, that is an ancient question. But thankfully, the answer is not merely “personal experience” as you suggest. If that were the case, then there would be no way for anyone to have any confidence that their beliefs were true. Muslims have personal experiences that validate Islam, just like Hindus for Hinduism, and atheists for atheism. Indeed, consider the logical outcome of your suggestion. Very few people have any experience of God – so if everyone just went by their “personal experience” they would be atheists.
The reason you are a Christian is not because of “personal experience” alone, but because you have received knowledge from other people in the form of preaching, testimonies, and most importantly, the book known as the Bible. You then interpreted your personal experiences in light of what you were told about God in the Bible. Muslims did exactly the same thing. They were told about Allah in the Quran, and then they interpreted their personal experiences in light of Islam. And Hindus did the same thing … it’s all a matter of interpretation. We all have wonderful mystical experiences at times, and we interpret them according to whatever spiritual/religious categories we have been taught by our culture.
Now your suggestion that I somehow failed to really “know Jesus” is the typical Christian response when someone leaves the faith. But it’s not accurate at all. Just read my book again. Do you not see page after page of testimony about the wonders of knowing God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Just look at my old About page where I said this:
And what about this testimony that still remains (for historical purposes) on my old homepage of my website:
And here is how I described myself in my old FAQ (which remains on my old site for historical purposes):
I’m sorry, but my subjective experience as a Christian was every bit as real, passionate, and valid as any experience could be. I really believed the Bible was the Word of God and the Gospel was the Truth of God. I dedicated my life to proclaiming this truth. If you think you can discount my experience as a Christian, then why should you believe anyone else who says the same kinds of things I said?
So this brings us to the question of “What happened to you?”. Well, it’s really pretty simple. I have always had a passion for truth and for learning, and the more I learned the more I realized that I had been misinterpreting the Bible and ignoring glaring problems with it. The thing that really pushed me over the top is when I recognized that Christians have perverted both their minds and their morals in their attempt to prove that the Bible is the “inerrant and infallible Word of God.” I know this seems strange since I wrote a book demonstrating that the Bible contains a supernatural design, but here’s a surprise for you: nowhere in the Bible Wheel book do I ever declare that the Bible is the “inerrant and infallible Word of God.” I never once describe the Bible with those words. And there’s a reason for this – that doctrine is ABSURD in the extreme. It has destroyed the mind of every Christian who has attempted to hold it as true. The Bible contains many contradictions, logical absurdities, errors in science and history, and most significantly, moral abominations attributed to God (such as his command to kill women and their innocent babies).
So this is what happened to me. The more I discussed the “Faith” with other Christians, the more I saw that they were deceiving themselves about many fundamental things. Most importantly, I came to see that there is no “personal God” who intervenes in human affairs and answer prayers. We know this with great certainty because the universe is indifferent to our religious beliefs. There is no statistical difference between Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, or Athiests. The universe operates in precisely the same way regardless of your religious faith. There is no God that answers prayers.
It was after years of discussing the Bible with Christians of every variety that I finally realized that everyone just makes up their own ideas, or sheepishly goes along with the mindless crowd, and believes in a God that does not actually do anything. But don’t misunderstand me. I am not an atheist. I’m just a non-theist. There probably is a God best described as the “Ground of Being” or something like that, but there’s no need to dig into that right now. It’s very speculative and philosophical.
So what then about the Bible Wheel? Now that’s where things get interesting. All the evidence for the Bible Wheel remains valid as far as I know. And so I am left with a most intriguing dilemma. I have solid evidence that “something supernatural” is going on in the Bible, but I also have solid evidence that the “personal God” it describes does not exist. So what’s it all about? I don’t know yet, but I’m very actively trying to figure it out. Any help would be most appreciated!
All the very best,
Richard
PS: Don’t hesitate with any followups. The feedback is very helpful.
Dear Richard-
I am truly shocked, saddened, and very concerned about your emotional well-being. After carefully studying your magnificent discovery so profoundly laid out in “The Bible Wheel” text, I cannot fathom how you would arrive at the place where you have turned from the truth and the reality of a Holy God. I was raised in a Catholic home and by the time I was 12- I literally ran from ‘the church’ and became an atheist, and hardcore at that. When I attended UCLA I began to study psychology, philosophy, and comparative religion- and for a period of 5 years considered myself a Buddhist. I became adept in the ‘I Ching: Book of Changes’ and began forecasting (divination) for my friends, family, and peer students. I kept a daily journal of my many coin-tosses, the moving lines, and the cataloged predictions that were part of each hexagram. All who knew me in the early 70’s knew I had a gift for divination with this demonic tool. At the time I had a Mexican girlfriend who I intended to marry that was having serious drug problems. She agreed to allow me to forecast her situation using the ‘I Ching’ and she ended up with four ‘moving’ lines based upon four separate three-of-a-kind coin tosses (3 heads or 3 tails).
Anyway, bare with me a moment- while I make my point. In her particular hexagram she had these four statements based upon the four ‘moving’ lines:
1) The moon is nearly full.
2) Light rain will fall.
3) Perseverance brings the woman into danger.
4) Misfortune.
The next day she picked me up in her VW bug because my car was in the shop, and lo’ and behold there was a very brief cloudburst on an otherwise clear day! She only turned her windshield wiper on once… and I said to her “Light rain will fall… I wonder if the moon is full?” She laughed it off. Later that evening we got into an argument and she left my home in a huff. The next day which was a Saturday my college friends and I had an all day and night beach party (intoxicated beyond recognition… since we all had addiction problems as well). I noticed the biggest full moon over the water at Zuma Beach that I had ever seen!
The next morning just as I was falling into bed, she calls saying she was coming over. I woke up in a dark house to a phone call from her mother. She had been in a car accident, hitting a parked car- she hit the windshield and broke her neck dying instantly! All of this to say that there is another more-real realm of existence where spiritual forces are constantly at play- both good and evil. I have studied and was a clever expositor of evolutionary hogwash for many years. On my blog (zionsgate.wordpress.com) I posted my ‘testimony’ of a personal encounter with Jesus Christ (Make This Mountain Whole), the reality of which no one can convince otherwise.
In my last three posts on my blog I have devoted myself to presenting compelling and in fact what I determine as irrefutable evidence of the truth of biblical Christianity. One would need to separate the sadly large portion of the apostate church that rehearses ‘a form of Godliness and yet denies the power thereof’ which is all too pervasive in much of the western postmodern ‘church’. Richard, I recognize your confusion. I am not seeking to offend you in any way… but you are deceived! The adversary has seeded doubt in your heart via worldly wisdom, that God in His Word declares correctly as foolishness. There is compelling evidence not only in the fulfillment of many hundreds of detailed prophecies in the Bible, in the Messianic prophecies comprehensively fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ (see my post ‘The Messiah According to the Scriptures’), as well as in the scientific disciplines that have objectively confirmed the veracity of the Biblical accounts: see ‘Prepared to Answer’ and ‘The Signature of God’ that I wrote about in my last two blog posts… the first which I recommended with your book in the same post.
I have two family members that have likewise walked away from the faith. I love them both more than my own life… because they are my son and daughter. They were raised in a Christian home from birth, attended private Christian schools K-12- and then were polluted with antinomian heresy when they attended college at UCLA and Sonoma State University. Thankfully each has responded more openly to my gift of the book “Prepared to Answer”. It is the pilgrimage of an atheist/agnostic Darwinian evolutionist who after much very thorough investigation came to saving faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, and the reliability of the Biblical account- from Genesis through Revelation. He retired from a highly successful career in information sciences and now devotes himself to presenting the evidences to the Biblical Christian faith wherever he is led.
I would challenge you my brother, to study Rob Van de Weghe’s book as well as Grant Jeffrey’s ‘Signature of God’. I would like to dialog with you about your impressions after you do. On the windmillministries.org site there are also DVD’s on Intelligent Design that are compelling. I also appreciate the work of the Discovery Institute at discovery.org. I have committed to pray for you and Anne… I will not relent. After reading ‘The Bible Wheel’ I cannot help but love you with the love of Christ.
With a burdened heart, in HIM, Santos
Dear Santos,
I really appreciate your passionate message, and I understand why you would be confused by my changes. I will respond more after taking a look at your blog. Thanks for posting the link.
All the best,
Richard
Dear Richard,
I studied your work in 2004 and continue to admire it; I also purchased your hard-copy book years ago, to contribute to your endeavors and say thank you, because they are noble and well-thought out. I see you reaching a more transcendent view in your faith and knowledge, as you even question the authority of fundamentalist beliefs in the Christian arena, or so-called Christians.
You said in an earlier post here,
[Quote]
“So this brings us to the question of “What happened to you?”. Well, it’s really pretty simple. I have always had a passion for truth and for learning, and the more I learned the more I realized that I had been misinterpreting the Bible and ignoring glaring problems with it. The thing that really pushed me over the top is when I recognized that Christians have perverted both their minds and their morals in their attempt to prove that the Bible is the “inerrant and infallible Word of God.” I know this seems strange since I wrote a book demonstrating that the Bible contains a supernatural design”
[/Quote]
And what I believe is happening to you is exactly what needs to happen, just as what has “happened to me” as I have matured. You are growing and maturing to a state of a more perfect understanding of life, faith, and reason. You are wondering about discovering the Truth, not just blindly accepting a dogma. This is so commendable. I love how rational and honest you have admitted to being. When I first studied your works, I looked at them as useful and yet, as coming from someone of a type of “fundamental trinitarian” belief, which I was always skeptical of. However, I didn’t discredit the amazing things you discovered and wrote about. By purchasing and studying your work, I was being merciful in my opinion of you, because I figured how well-meaning your seeking was. I didn’t judge you, even though I figured you were pretty grounded in a particular denominational view, of a typical Christian dogma. However, you were to me, different, and seemed to have much more potential to grow into perfection, than those who simply don’t ask questions or investigate facts at all. You were a researcher, and I admired this quality.
People would ask “What’s happened to you?” When I speak about what I believe, since I also challenge what many call acceptable or divine. I hypothesize the, “If there is a God, then” He had better be good, and have a good reason for everything that’s been happening in this world from the beginning. It does appear this world is a type of prison, where some “pre-crime” has been observed, and many are here simply being “punished” in a difficult life, a hard world to live in, surrounded by pain and chaos — not even knowing “what I did to deserve this” in a way. Yet there are some who don’t feel this world is like a prison, and namely those who are wealthy and have a lot of things, and don’t worry about anything at all — and actually live out their days without any regrets or fears, or faith, or anything to disturb their well-being. There seems to be an inevitable injustice in the way this world works, and many wonder who God is or what He stands for. The Bible has been misinterpreted way too much, for me to agree with the inferior image of the God many choose to believe in. Mature minds ask the hard questions, and demand evidence. I believe what has happened to you, is a good thing.
Does the Bible reveal hidden things? I think it’s useful, but am often judged by Christians for not calling it “inerrant”, just taking the end of the book of Mark for example, or quotes from the book of Enoch found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, by Jude and even Peter. If God wanted to give us proof for everything, He would. I think part of our existence requires us to question why we exist, and if their is something eternal about our consciousness.
I think the change that has taken place in you, is one leading toward a better and more refined character, and a more noble purpose in how you believe, rather than “what you believe” concerning the historical accounts on many spiritual matters. When I returned to your site here, after a long time since I had studied on these subjects on the Bible Wheel, I was actually very surprised to see how you were talking, and how you had changed so much! But inwardly, I smiled and said, “This is great news!” I now see you as more trustworthy, and that much more reliable in your search for answers. In fact, a man who is as rational and honest as you, must reach a point where you say, “Have I believed anything incorrectly at any time, what do the facts show, what is the evidence, where is the proof, the benefit, the advantage?”
It doesn’t surprise me that your views have changed; it is in fact, something I rejoice to hear, because great minds and great rational thinkers always ask good questions and pursue evidences, and answers that satisfy the rational mind. Faith is often necessary in order to make those great leaps of the imagination, but then rationality and honesty come in to require and demand the evidence for such matters.
A Little Background, How I “met” your Research:
Your work on the Bible Wheel was something I was privately working on in my studies in 2004, when I happened upon your research online. I was fascinated someone else also was putting the books of the Biblical text in line with the Hebrew aleph-bet, as I had also taken up a task so similar, fundamentally different, but similar. Where I was lacking though, was in the fundamental reason this could provide useful in studying Scripture. I called my research, “A Great Discovery” because it seemed beautiful that God would “encrypt” even more secrets in His message to mankind. Your work was inspirational to me, and I ceased in my effort to make any “wheel” of this invention that comes off as surprisingly beautiful, and mysterious. It seems obvious that in the “if there is a God” He certainly hides Himself, and is very paradoxical in His methods.
I agree with you, that there are conflicts though, which require a thorough look. I am with you in the arena of being almost ashamed to say, “I’m a Christian” when I talk about how I believe and what I believe. What Christianity is today, is more or less absurd. But, I still hang my head when I conclude, “Yes, I do believe death was conquered, and that Jesus, or Joshua — is alive.” In fact, of all my research and studies, the only thing I see that really requires a leap of faith anymore, is that the dead come back, the resurrection of the dead, and that Jesus desires all to have life (contrary to the images of torment in hell, which I find even more absurd). I think justice is necessary, but would simply be shameful if there wasn’t some form of justice in the end. Life seems so vain as it were, and death even more vain. My honest and rational mind just “WANTS” there to be justice. Whether or not Jesus, or as I call Him, Joshua — is the Judge who will one day show us all things — I can only rely on a basic faith, saying, “Well, it would be reasonable more than the other religions I’ve studied; since Joshua’s desire is love and forgiveness, and who wouldn’t desire this more than anything else, leading toward eternal peace?”
Yes, the thoughts of most who question and who desire truth, who desire answers, and who want to see mysteries unveiled. It isn’t by fear of “death” or “hell” that I believe though, unlike many — it really is by faith. I have no fear. In fact, some fear that if they question what they believe about Christianity, that they might suffer a horrible fate.
Concluding Remarks:
I encourage you, brother, to continue using your rational mind and your honest conscience. It’s issues such as “fiery torment and agony” in concepts like hell, that really fly in the face of “mercy triumphs over judgment”. Einstein was brilliant as well, often given more credit than he would ever personally accept if he were living today; I think you have a brilliant mind as well, and your refining of how you see the world, faith, life, God, and the Universe — will eventually come to a better knowledge.
I see you like I admire Einstein, and want you to be encouraged by my words, as like a young man of twenty-five years, like a son to a father, saying that I admire your disciplines and your hard-work in life, and will always keep your name along with those other brilliant philosophers in history. I hope you understand, that I don’t want to hear you say, “I deny faith in God and faith in Jesus, and faith in the Bible” but if you have good rational reasons to conclude there is something greater, or something more enlightening — more power to you.
On a Covenant:
If then, my simple and almost “irrational” belief in Jesus as conquering the grave is all I hold onto, in hope of something more than the obscure “salvation” — if anything, I simply want not to fall into judgment, not hell, not hell at all — judgment — which means if I denied Christ, I likely wouldn’t feel the need to remain loyal to my wife, even amidst despairing times, and in fear, divorce her — without worry? But in faith, I love her, and even if she became my enemy — I would love her even that much more, and I think this is why I believe Jesus’ and trust His teachings, not what man teaches about Him, but how I couldn’t really justify doing good toward my enemy, or one in my own household, if my enemy was married to me! I would rather divorce. But I love my wife and she loves me. It’s unlikely we’d ever part. However, I use this marriage covenant example, because I haven’t been an adulterer nor do I plan on being one — and I think that faith in Jesus, has provided a stability in this “command” not out of coercion or force, but out of love and forgiveness. This subjective story, I share with you, because I think there can be found rational and honest conclusions in the teachings we are told are “the way, the truth, and the life” which often, are so difficult to live by, that few Christians are even Christian according to Jesus’ own words and commands! But I hope to live a noble and honest, and rational life as well, even if my most “pitiful faith” is in the hope of immortality, for being an honest person, for instance.
Closing:
It’s what Christ stands for, that I can’t deny in my heart though, or else I’d be as much an atheist as any other free-thinking man. He stands for love and peace and the image of a God most wouldn’t know or recognize, just by looking at the world. The distance and the mystery of God seems so hard to believe, just as the near 600,000 Hebrews who wandered in the wilderness, all died out there, in simply not trusting God, never entering into that rest? Well, Joshua and Caleb entered in out of all of them. They saw miracles beyond anything we could imagine today, and yet today, God wants us to believe without seeing, and then find evidence as a result of already establishing ourselves on some stretch of the human imagination.
I do believe in God, and that the Bible is very useful. I also appreciate how much you’ve worked in your faith, and how far you’ve come, to even challenge the way you were accustomed to seeing. I know a “Universalistic” view is often scorned, but if Jesus came to save the world, and only 1% were going to “enter His Kingdom”, it would logically seem like a huge failure if the other 99% were going to “burn forever”, billions of people, simply because the mind they had been created to use, wasn’t “good enough” to believe or trust in a very complex and hidden God.
I wish you the best, and thank you for your wonderful research!
— Jake
Peace.
Dear Jake,
I don’t have time right now to answer as your post deserves, but I really want to let you know how meaningful your words are to me. You are the first person who seems to understand what the kind of transformation I am going through. Thank you for taking the time to share so much of your life and soul with me and everyone else who follows this blog.
All the very best to you!
Richard
Jake,
I’m going to reply to your comment in pieces, since it’s so big. The first thing I want to respond to is this:
Not all non-scientific beliefs are “irrational.” Indeed, science itself must be established on philosophical rather than “scientific” grounds. This was the downfall of Logical Positivism in the 20th century. So never let the “rationalists” fool you into believing that they have all the answers.
If there is a witness in your heart to the Truth of Christ, then how could you think to deny that? Your choice of the marriage metaphor is wiser than you know because you don’t need and science cannot provide “scientific proof” that your wife loves you and that you love her. Neither do you need such proof for your conscience with respect to God. Sure, your adherence to Christ may be based on social conditioning and fear, or it might be an intuition speaking to your heart from the depth of Reality. Remember Nietzsche’s advice: “”Be careful, lest in casting out your demon you exorcise the best thing in you.” I do not reject Christ or the Bible – I only reject that which I know to be false, such as doctrines like those of the unthinking fundamentalist. I don’t know what I believe about Christ right now, but I do know that it doesn’t matter what I think, since if he is anything like the Bible says, then he will understand.
If you read my comments earlier in this thread you well get a pretty good idea of where I am at right now. I don’t call myself an an “atheist” because that word carries too much baggage and implies things that are not true about me. I am a “non-theist” but that does not mean “atheist” because I believe there probably is a “God” in the sense of the “Ground of Being” or “Universal Mind” underlying all Reality. There are no “proofs” one way or the other for these kinds of philosophical questions about the nature of Ultimate Reality, so we who aspire to be rational freethinkers need not hobble ourselves with a limited materialistic reductionist worldview. We must never forget that worldview should be dual – both rational and mystical – like the two hemispheres of our brain and the two eyes with which we gain depth perception.
Great chatting!
Hi Richard.
I knew you had abandoned your orthodox Christian faith, having read a discussion you had on your site recently. I was going to join in at the time, but then thought better of it. Congratulations! I often say to people that to join the Church you have to leave the church, meaning that the real church is our personal relationship with God, the other church being little more than a social construct (although it has its uses).You’ve struck out on the very brave but I assure you ultimately rewarding path of personal gnosis. You already know I’m on that path too, so perhaps that remark won’t surprise you too much. At the end of the path is Christ himself and he can appear as many things, most recently a door for me (‘I am the door to life..’). I’ve been through that door several times, but can’t sustain the energy or whatever it takes to stay there – meaning that I quickly fall back to a lower state of consciousness.
In my experience, the most accurate spiritual information available at the moment is A Course In Miracles. I recommend it. An intellectual guy like you will take to it like a duck to water. I have had dream after dream after dream showing me that this is as near to the truth as we can understand or accept at the moment. It’s a non-dualistic teaching, very like Christian gnosticism or the Advaita Vedanta. Please just read some of it before you make a judgment.
Anyway, I sincerely hope that this information is useful to you at the moment.
In Christ
Bill
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the good words! They are very encouraging. I hope they will help others see that fundamentalism is not the only way to be a Christian.
All the best,
Richard
To understand the secrets of God and be allowed wisdom and revelation of such magnitude and then choose to apply a veil of non biblical theology to explain it? How can you possibly experience the magnificence of a creator and discount him shortly after? What went wrong? Why are you choosing to define God in a new way that encompasses a concept of uniting all of humanity with a form of consciousness? Did you not grasp anything in the bible that you still state is of supernatural origin? Then again I guess the bible is full of examples of a people who experienced the wonders and power of God and chose to worship other gods. Hope your journey comes full circle and you return as in the end God’s people will as well. May what the enemy has stolen from you, be returned 7 fold! Blessing on your journey
Hi Kate,
I understand your confusion. My post was pretty brief, so it’s hard to tell exactly where I am coming from. Did you read my other comments in this thread? I explained a lot in them – for example, the question of “what happened” that caused my understanding to evolve. I will be explain more soon, but in the meanwhile, I will answer here as best as possible.
Christian theologians have been wrestling with the question about how to understand God for as long as Christianity has existed. For the first few centuries, there was a lot of confusion and debate about the relation between the man Jesus and God his father. And since that time, folks have been trying to understand what it means to say that God cares or answers prayers if he is omniscient. The problem is that an omniscient God never had a chance to make any decisions because he always knew what he would do. So that kind of God is not like any real person who can make decisions, and he is not like the God described in the Bible. Therefore, there is a HUGE contradiction between the God of the Bible and the God of the religion known as “orthodox Christianity.”
Are you beginning to see the problem? It’s not with me. The problem is between the God of the Bible vs. the God of traditional Christianity! And that’s a pretty big problem if you ask me.
So please, don’t jump to conclusions about what I believe or don’t believe. There are more problems in Biblical theology then popular Christianity is willing to admit. I’m working through some very difficult questions that do not have easy answers.
And that brings me to another issue. Have you ever dealt with the fact that God commanded the murder of thousands and thousands of woman and their little babies? Can you imagine what it would have been like to be a Hebrew soldier? To find a Midianite tent and to rip it open to find an 18 year old mother grasping her to babies to her breast, begging, pleading for mercy!, crying, screaming as her face is splattered with the blood and guts of her own children? The Bible says they did this to “every city” in the promised land:
Deuteronomy 3:6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.
Can you imagine how this BRUTALIZED the souls of the Hebrews? I do not “refuse” to believe in such a god – I have no option on this matter. I simply CANNOT believe in such a god! Therefore, the Bible has been horribly misunderstood. Yes, I have plenty of evidence that there is “something supernatural” going on in the Bible, but it is impossible to assert that it is the “inerrant and infallible Word of God.” And guess what? In the 412 page Bible Wheel book, I never once made such a claim! The doctrine that the Bible is the “inerrant and infallible Word of God” is false, and I’ve always known it was false, even when I was a fundamentalist Christian who believed and proclaimed that the Bible was “God’s Book.” That’s as far as I could go, because I knew that it contained many errors and contradictions (real or apparent). Anyone with a truly “high view” of Scripture will accept it as God gave it, and this means that they won’t lie about it or twist it or pervert logic to try to hide what it really says. And the sad fact is that most “fundamentalist” Christians who claim to believe the Bible is the Word of God are the very people who deny what the Bible actually states. What irony!
So as you can see, this is not a “sudden” change, and it is not without good reason. Anyone who really thinks about what the Bible teaches and tries to believe it will eventually discover that they need to go beyond the exceedingly fallacious and often absurd doctrines of “biblical theology.”
I very much appreciate your comments, and hope you will feel free to write with any followups.
All the very best,
Richard
Thanks for your response. I, like you, believe that God of the bible is not always the same god professed by people who label themselves Christians. However, I believe that God watches over his Word (as He says) and it is the way it is, and contains the things it contains, because He allows it and it accomplishes His purposes (errors or no errors). To deny that the Bible and it’s contents are His construct or design would render everything contained therein obsolete and thereby reducing it to “just another story–up for anyone’s interpretation.” Those who wish to pick and choose, run the risk of playing god themself–like people using their own interpretation of scriptures, or emotional response to form their biblical theology, much like you are doing. I fear it really may come down to an all or none principle, you either believe it’s God’s word He created or none of the contents are true. Just because we may not be able to understand or explain why things are in the bible and why He chose to have women and children killed doen’t mean there wasn’t a purpose that we could understand. I’m glad you are asking the hard, complex questions, though! But you are at risk of negating everything you learned with the bible wheel. Before looking to sources outside of the bible, please exhaust your search of the scriptures and God’s revelation therein of the secrets of God. To those who are willing to dig as you have, the layers of mysteries throughout the Bible will be made clear. Just don’t give up or become weary of searching the scriptures, is all I am saying 🙂 Just concerned for you, Kate
Dear Richard,
Thank you for your consideration and thoughtful reply to my lengthy remarks. You certainly don’t have to respond to all my sentiments, as I tend to really open up and detail my thoughts. My apologies there, as I amplify things where I get excited on subjects. I see you did get the gist. I really do understand where you are coming from, and I think it’s good that you have grown this way, to challenge the very difficult confrontations. I think it takes a lot of courage for you to do what you’re doing, and your openness about it is even bolder. I always admire when there is a man who challenges what is commonly accepted, and asks the hard questions. I’m sure you have good reasons.
I once heard a joke that a boy prayed to God for a bike, and never got one, and then learned that’s not how God works, so he just stole one, and asked God for forgiveness later. 🙂
I empathize with your views of fundamentalist Christianity. I don’t say you have “lost” anything in your journey. I don’t see you as having “fallen away”, as you might feel some are slightly accusatory, trying to persuade or convict simply by saying the Bible is the ultimate authority. I don’t consider myself a Christian, but I “am a Christian” paradoxically. I studied world religions. I’ve just narrowed my views down to one that is most to be desired. I’m not a Christian by the Christian’s definitions though, which really vexes me. I don’t believe in “trinity persons” or “raptures” or “hell” or other things that they consider to be expected.
In fact, when I tell Christians I follow the commandments, they just accuse me of being “legalistic” and I’m “trying to be saved by works” which is just more Christianese when I hear it. I’m not trying to do anything. It’s not that hard to not steal from my neighbor, I just don’t think to do it. It’s not that hard to not cheat on my wife. It’s not that hard to not murder, or to not make up false stories about people, just to spread conflict or rumors. Perhaps the hardest would then be “coveting” because materialism is tough for western society especially. But overall, I think many “lawbreakers” try to invent doctrines that ensure they can do whatever they want and still “be accepted” by their community, or by God. It often get’s to the point of ridiculous though, where rumors start, or judgmental words begin, or just an unloving or hateful group of people come off. I couldn’t believe my “good works” were being spoken of as evil, by the group who was supposed to be encouraging people to live moral and virtuous lives!
I just don’t find it that hard to pursue morality, even if I was atheist (which I am not), I would still have a conscience. Even my church leaders in the past condemned me when I married my wife. We had to go to the justice of the peace, because they were so judgmental of us (even though we were virgins, and loved God by the book). Why? That is a story that is so nonsensical, I don’t even want to say it, because it will make the church appear to be even more of a clown circus than it already makes itself to be!
Personally, I continue to trust what I believe, not blindly though, simply because there were experiences enough in my own life to support something that I never would have believed using logic alone. Like I said, I probably should be an “atheist” even by my own standard! But I feel I have found sufficient evidence, proof even, to keep me solid on this “Rock” that others pretend to be solid on. My life isn’t pretentious though, and more or less, I upset people when I tell them about faith — because I wish they were more like you, in challenging the conventional things, and challenging the acceptable things, and challenging things that they even dedicated years of service and faith to. It takes so much courage to do that, and courage, in my book, is the most commendable kind of faith, while faith, appears more like stupidity at times!
Anyway, I know I’m writing a lot, but I really want to emphasize again that I sympathize with you, and agree with you how churches are in error, and that the God they teach about is not really the God that could possibly exist through the ages. I don’t think the Biblical God is represented very well, nor is He understood very well, nor are His seemingly atrocious past “genocides” understood. For all we know, Enoch’s writings about “visitors” perhaps explain strange phenomenons in historical architectures, and very strange stone carvings (mind you, very large, some requiring a leap of the imagination just to say, “the aliens did it; there’s no other explanation”, even precision cuts and carvings, near perfect lines in granite without evidence of the tools used to do such “meaningless” designs, that not even masons today would be able to accomplish…
Who knows — I’ve seen a lot of strange historical evidences, that we clearly don’t know the half of it all. It would be lame to just say those children who were slain were simply “hybrids” of some perverted fallen angel/human race of “giants” or “minotaurs” or what have you, wherever these fairy tale-like legends come from. There are so many excuses used to justify things that are very mystical and things of legend even. I know I’ve read in 1 Enoch (for the sake of just literary knowledge), where the suggestion of demons being the result of such “fallen-angel hybrid humans” who died, or were slain. I admit, it sounds very much absurd. Still interesting to conceptualize, or gain insight on where the legends come from, at the very least! I can’t say with certainty I know what the answers are. I don’t think there are aliens, but I know some things are easier to explain by just saying, “God did it” or “the aliens did it” without any firm evidence to support such claims.
But sometimes, history shows us the strangest and most remarkable evidences, that there were at least some things going on here on earth, that lead people to believe in all kinds of conspiracies. Unfortunately, the rapture-type conspiracies fit right in with the UFO ones I’ve heard. The vast amount of non-sense that is out there, might one day culminate into complete 100% sense; which would be nice! Mysteries, mysteries. No one can possibly account for all the complexities and anomalies we are surrounded by in this vast world and universe. Therefore, I do commend your apparent “doubt” which I don’t call doubt, rather, a growing and maturing faith — which whether acceptable by others or not, who cares? You are a man, and you have acquired knowledge in your life; you are free to believe and to think, and to ask questions. I do admire your courage to come forward publicly, and allow forums for discussion as well. I really do.
Consciousness is a challenging subject; existence, unity, harmony, etc. I read your remarks about a collective consciousness, which I find fascinating as well. The metaphysics of spiritual things are so captivating, and obviously in your writing of the Bible Wheel, you demonstrate a very thorough desire to understand the world, and the metaphysical properties of “harmonies” and synchronicity, and unification. I also am with you in that mankind seems to be by nature and by design, intended to be part of a unified type of consciousness, and a harmonic symphony of life that leads to peace. I consider the Native Americans; they had faith, consciences, and knowledge about spiritual things — but they weren’t “Bible believing Christians” — and they’re just as much accountable in life for their actions, as anyone else. Some of them were described as “savages” while I wonder though, when I see how they believed in “The Great Spirit” and they way they believed. Their faith in many ways, far exceeded that of the Catholics who tried to convert them!
Closing:
I really enjoy your feedback, and seeing how you respond and confront these subjects. You have great boldness and courage, and I hope it serves you well in your quest for answers, and in your quest for understanding things that others may scorn you for, or even shake their heads at. I don’t. I am happy to be one to congratulate your efforts, and to show empathy in your metamorphosis.
Don’t feel obligated to respond to all my ramblings here, I know I said a lot! Just want to thank you kindly again, and to say I appreciate your openness and your responses here. So many people have so much to say, and I know you probably might feel overwhelmed by how much negative feedback you may be receiving.
I’m glad I could at least give positive things to say about your change, and about you, and for you. I hope it encourages you with all the heat you might be getting here! I did enjoy your book, and I learned a lot from you. I hope you aren’t discouraged at all by what people might say to you in this change.
Take care, and thanks again for your reply 🙂
— Jake
Peace.
Hello Richard-
In the interest of continuing research and study, I felt lead to recommend a particularly unique website: 8thday.org. The depth of provocative and yet comprehensive articles may add to your deeper understanding of the 66 books of Holy Scripture.
Stay well… continuing in prayer, in HIM- Santos
Kate is great!! and R.A.M. it appears that you are kicking against the goads.. may i suggest http://www.esword.net.. perhaps look on faussets bible dictionary look up. mystery, parable and proverb.. hopefully you will see that Christ is our High priest.. and sacrifice at the same time.. He is the torah. the door.. and no one can enter exept through God’s sacrifice.. He was also the ram with the crown of thorns.. ie… Issaac on the same mountain had to carry his wood up the hill too.. we too.. need to lay down our lives and God’s purifying fire will burn up all of our wood, hay and stubble.too. shalom to you..
Jake i like your writing.. i think you should be a writer.. I’m really loving going to http://www.forerunnertv.com and we are learning the mysteries of the kingdom… check this out.. the Hebrew way of thought.. not western.. is that your past is in front of you.. and your future is behind you. you cannot see the future.. but you keep running into the same things over and over from your past.. that is because God wants us to get victory over those things.. and be an overcomer.. when we are.. we go up in our understanding.. and He gives us a new name.. Name in the Hebrew is character and function.. when we overcome our fears, doubts, obstacles.. we get a new name.. and we walk differently in our walk.. that is what we learn.. To come in God’s name.. we are to not do it with vanity or lip service.. but we are to come in His character and function.. and therefore we have our hedge of protection and we do not blaspheme nor put disgrace upon His character.. If we have self mastery it will prove useful in discipling others. modeling.
oh .r.a.m.,
I too have had a lot of my old beliefs removed.. since going to the school of the prophet with forerunnertv.com . I now understand that there will not be this flying away called a rapture.. as i knew it.. before. as scripture says.. “corruption will not put on incorruption.” we need to be ready and prepare .. when we see Him as He is.. then we shall be changed.. in a moment. in a twinkling of an eye.. metamorphoo is transformation into our glorified body.. like Jesus.. Yashua.. that is a different situation all together.. and we must grow up.. be mature.. for He is coming in the clouds.. us.. yes.. i said us.. the scripture shows.. when Jesus on the mountain of transfiguration went up.. and the disciples all watched him go up into the clouds.. they all looked up standing there.. and the angels came and said to them.. “Why do you stand there looking in the clouds? Do you not know that Just the same way Jesus came he will return? He is coming in us.. His vessels.. Mary was a vessel too.. and we can be impregnated with his seed.. sperma.. the word.. in Greek.. in the loins of our minds.. impregnated into the soil of our hearts and minds.. it is spiritual not sexual.. as in the spirit.. spirit gives birth to spirit and flesh gives birth to flesh.. He spoke spiritual words..and the carnal people did not understand.. that is when they chose to leave him in one day.. John 6:66 they took the mark of the beast in their carnal mindsets and chose to not understand the spiritual words.. there are 4 different ways to know God’s word and God’s love.. the heighth, depth, length and breadth.. which in the Hebrew (overcomer) way of thought is the PRDS paradise.. Pashat,Remez,Drash and sod level of interpretation. we must understand what God is getting ready to do.. He tells his prophets a thing before it happens.. and He wants all of us to have eyes to see and ears to hear .. He does not want for any to perish.. but we must press in and purchase oil for our lampstands so that we have light in the dark times ahead.. we must build ourselves up on our most holy faith with understanding what God is trying to teach us His mystery language.. hidden.. God conceals and it is a glory for kings to reveal. revelation is what it is all about.. for the lover who wants to find the lover of our soul.God spoke through apostles of the faith.. saying.. “He wants us all to prophesy” to see things that we do not know of yet.. I pray R.A.M. that you will have open heavens in your mindset to understand the mysteries of the kingdom and that musterion in the Greek is the way God hides himself from carnal men but reveals himself to those who love wisdom.. get wisdom and understanding.. press in to know the heart of God.. and His language.. Hebrew.. (overcomer). He wants us to know him..
Hi Santos,
Thanks for the link, but I’ve known about that site for many years. Indeed, the owner has had a link to my site for a long time on this page:
http://members.cox.net/8thday/gemindx.html
But I think you misunderstand my position. No amount of additional “research and study” into the supernatural structure of the Bible will help because my cup already “runneth over” in that regard. The Bible Wheel is without doubt the strongest and most compelling evidence for the “supernatural design” of the Bible that has ever been seen in the history of the world. At least that’s how it seems to me, and no one has ever come close to refuting it in any way at all despite a decade of dispute in the most hostile environments in both skeptical and “Christian” forums like the TheologyWeb.com (The Swamp of Self-Mockery) and the pseudo-scientific ASA (American Scientific Association).
So that’s not the issue. The issue is this: The Bible is a very special book that has played a central role in the formation of the planetary mind, but it is not supposed to be interpreted literally, and when it is interpreted literally it becomes an absurdity and a prison for the mind. The endless publication of “apologetics” articles and books attempting to “explain away” the blatant contradictions, errors in history and fact, and moral abominations attributed to God prove this for any mind that really wants the truth.
I don’t have a clear understanding about how to interpret the “message” or the “meaning” of the Bible yet, but I do know that all the traditional Christian interpretations by Catholics, Orthodox, and every variety of Protestant groups are WRONG.
So, here’s the situation: I know the Bible is special and bears marks of “divine design.” But it also bears the marks of human error, superstition, and wrong ideas about God. Furthermore, the idea of God as presented in traditional Christian theism is false. There is no God that intervenes in human affairs and answers prayers as a general rule. The problem is that Muslim, Hindus, Jews, and Christians all claim that their God answers their prayers, but when we look at the statistics we find that they are all wrong. Pretty much everyone knows this – even Christians who begin by asserting that God answers prayers will usually end up “explaining” why he doesn’t when pressed for the truth.
So the “help” I need is this: How to understand the nature of God and the Bible. I don’t need “proof” that the Bible is from God, I need to know how to interpret it. One possibility is that the Bible is like a “divine historical novel.” It certainly is embedded in history, but the historical elements are only incidental to the story. It’s purpose is to convey a story that transforms the way a person thinks. Another possibility is that it is a “dream image” of the collective unconscious – the Universal Mind – and just as our dreams produce complex images that are not “consciously designed” by our minds, so the Bible Wheel may have been produced by processes that do not require a designer. Or perhaps there are “Higher Intelligences” classically conceived as “Angels” that influenced the people who put together the Bible without their knowledge. There are many possibilities.
Great chatting!
Hi Jessica,
Thanks for the advice – but it’s rather like telling a Mathematics Professor that he should go back to elementary school to find the solution to the Matrix-Valued Hypergeometric Equation. I’ve read the whole Bible multiple times in English, Greek, and Hebrew. I wrote my own Bible software not unlike esword, and I wrote a 412 page book called The Bible Wheel in which I reviewed the primary themes of each of the 66 books of the Bible and showed how they were all connected together to form an amazing design of divine unity. It is ironic that you suggest I use Fausset since the commentary by Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown was one of my primary references in my book. Furthermore, I wrote a whole chapter on Christ as the High Priest, and specifically discussed the fact that he was both Priest and Sacrifice on page 286 of my book, which you can download free here.
So thanks for the advice, but you are a little late to the party. I do not need any further knowledge about traditional Christian doctrines. I know them all and have found them wanting. Read the other posts in this thread and you will get a better idea of where I’m coming from and how I ended up here.
I hope you don’t take this as a “rebuke.” I appreciate your comments and hope you will comment more.
All the best!
Richard
Hi again Jessica,
Thanks for sharing your insights, but again, nothing you wrote is new to me. I knew about Jewish Kabbalistic interpretations like PRDS before I became a Christian two decades ago. I think there is plenty of value and truth to be found there, but that’s not the solution to the issues I am dealing with. Again, let me suggest you read my other responses in this thread so you will have a better idea of the facts that drove me to my conclusions, and then maybe you will have a better idea of what would be needed to “fix” me, if “fixing” is what I need.
And on that note – I would be very interested to know what you think a person MUST believe to be “saved.” I note that you believe we are in the “end times” because you say that there are “dark days ahead.” You do know, don’t you, that folks have been falsely predicting “dark days ahead” since the beginning of Christianity? And especially since the modern secular state of “Israel” was founded in 1948 – so false prophets popped up like mushrooms proclaiming the “end was near” and there would be “dark days ahead” really, really soon back in the 1970s, and the 1980s, and the 1990s, and especially in the Year 2000! DOOM DOOM DOOM! It’s false! Think about that for a minute. How many times do the self-proclaimed “prophets” have to be wrong before you will admit that they are not really prophets at all?
Great chatting!
All the best!
Richard
Hi Richard,
I clicked on your site to provide a link to your excellent find concerning the Bible Wheel and find you leading others into questioning a personal God. I’m shocked of course. I believe your discovery is probably the greatest proof of the existence of God, and now I cannot in good conscience provide searchers for God the link. How sad my friend. Is Rose with you in this straying from the faith? I pray not.
You wrote, “The reason you are a Christian is not because of “personal experience” alone, but because you have received knowledge from other people in the form of preaching, testimonies, and most importantly, the book known as the Bible. You then interpreted your personal experiences in light of what you were told about God in the Bible.”
How do you know this to make such a blanket judgmental statement like this? This is a statement of faith arrived at by your subjective observations. How can you say for sure that the Holy Spirit of God has not moved upon my heart to give me faith in God? One night I looked into the heavens and asked God if He was really there. Into my own mind came the word “YES”. And then words came that I could never know….”AND I LOVE YOU”. I was overwhelmed with a joy I had never known before. I could go on to testify how God revealed Himself to me subjectively, in nature, in the Bible, through prophecy, and more importantly through Jesus Christ.
You yourself know this. The Bible Wheel confirms Jesus Christ and His cross as the Capstone of Scripture. Go back my friend and read your very own evidence of why the Bible is God’s Word and Jesus is God’s Son. Why don’t you go back and dismantle all of the excellent proofs you have made PROVING the Bible is God’s Word, thus proving there is a God. You cannot do that with the Bhagavad Gītā, or the Koran or other holy books. These other holy books provide the peoples with one thing…’there is a GOD’. This prepares them to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ established in the only historical book, the Bible.
I don’t believe the Bible is inerrant. It was written by humans within their own historical context. I don’t allow errors, inconsistantcies or the pre-scientific world they lived in to affect the truth I find there. What I find in the Bible is a Creator who chose Moses and then Abraham and his descendents to make a revelation concerning Himself. When Moses asked God to show him HIS glory, God revealed that His GLORY is found in His heart/character. He made a seven-fold revelation about Himself: HE is the LORD GOD WHO is: Gracious, Compassionate, Longsuffering Patient, Abounding in Lovingkindness and Faithfulness, Who is merciful forgiving all manner of sin, and yet will not leave the guilty unpunished meaning he is also Just. I find this revelation of God throughout the Old Testament and then find it perfectly demonstrated in the Life/heart/character of Jesus Christ. All the rest of it…the errors, the science, the history etc. do not lead me to dismiss this revelation of God.
Look at nature Richard and the living cell. How complex. Where did it come from? Where does life come from? Is there a Creator or not? And is this Creator willing to be personal with humans? I say yes, there is a Creator. The living cell proves a Creator…to me. Since the discovery of nuclear microscopes, the complexity of the living cell has driven many scientists to restate Darwin and surprisingly many have opted to believe life was planted here by a superior race out there in space somewhere.
That God is personal, I only have to look to Jesus.
“Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you,’ declares the LORD.”
Only those who seek God sincerely and humbly because they really want to know will find God. He has chosen to reveal Himself only to those who seek Him with all their hearts. Then “I will be found by you”, declares the LORD.
I believe your journey into the other side of faith will lead you in a big circle…like a wheel…back into faith in God and His Son, who alone promises eternal life to those believing in Him. “He that has the Son has life. He that has not the Son has not life.” God bless my friend.
Bob Brown
Pastor
(one of your original supporters)
Hi Bob,
Thanks for taking time to speak with me concerning the changes I am going through. I don’t know how much of my other responses in this thread that you have read, but they contain many answers to the questions you have posed to me. For example, I have repeatedly stated that I have not found any errors in the evidence I have presented for the Bible Wheel. It all stands. The only thing that has changed is my interpretation of what that evidence means. Many, if not most, of the folks who have followed my work have taken it to imply what you deny, namely, that the Bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God. I never actually bought into that belief because it is obviously erroneous. But I did think of the Bible as “God’s Book” meaning that it could contain whatever errors or myths or whatever God wanted it to contain. I still consider this the highest view of Scripture possible. But now I am reconsidering even this view for many reasons. First, the idea of a “personal God” is logically incoherent with the doctrine that God is literally omniscient because the latter implies that God never had any opportunity to make any decisions because he already knew what he would do. In this view, God is like a frozen, abstract “brute fact” without any feelings for humanity or anything else. Such a God has no qualities that could be described by the word “personal.” And worse, such a God is utterly distinct from the God of the Bible.
Another problem is the doctrine of prayer. The truth of the matter is that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. Sure, most Christians (including myself when I was one) have a small collection of “answered prayers” that we treasure as “proof” – but those “answers” could be explained any number of ways (coincidence, selective memory, mind power, etc.), and everyone of every religion (Hindu, Muslim, Jewish) has their own collection of “answers” that they think “proves” the truth of their God. It is clear that the universe operates as if there were no God “running” things. We get random earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunnamis, child cancer, whatever, you name it. The world is indifferent (on a statistical level) to our prayers. It matters not if we are Hindu, Atheist, Muslim, Christian or Jew – we all suffer the same fate and our prayers are not, as a general rule, answered.
As for the existence of life as proof of God – that argument suffers greatly under the evidence for evolution. Do you deny that evidence? Now I will admit that there is no naturalistic explanation for the origin of life, but mere scientific ignorance is not proof of God. And even if it were, it would not prove Christ over Allah or the sentient Ground of Being of the Perennial Philosophy.
I trust you understand I have seriously thought about these issue in great depth. Simplistic answers that might satisfy those trying to hang onto their faith in spite of the evidence do not help me – on the contrary, they only irritate me and confirm that I have made the correct decision. And this brings up another BIG reason I reject traditional Christianity in general. Have you ever read the books produced by the Christian apologists? Most are truly an abomination of irrationality! Yet they are the big sellers. I do not know of any apologists supporting traditional Christianity who I respect as providing legitimate answers to the real problems with the Bible. You say that you reject the errors of the Bible – that’s great. Do you also reject the divine genocide (Deut 2:34) and killing of all the men, women, and children except the virgin girls (Num 31:17)? If so, then you are rejecting huge chunks of the Torah. So if I can reject huge portions of Scripture as obviously inferior of God, then what is to stop me from rejecting it all as “the Word of God” and seeking some other interpretation altogether?
I hope that helps you understand, and I am very open to any followup discussion.
All the best,
Richard
PS: You don’t have to stop recommending the Bible Wheel. Whatever truth it contains remains.
Bob,
You wrote:
You ask “How can you say for sure that the Holy Spirit of God has not moved upon my heart to give me faith in God?” The answer is simple – I never said that! I said that your faith is not based upon “personal experience alone.” And you know this is true. You know you had to get your knowledge about Jesus from the Bible and/or people preaching from the Bible. I don’t know why you didn’t understand this.
The idea of a “personal God” is logically incoherent with the doctrine that God is literally omniscient because the latter implies that God never had any opportunity to make any decisions because he already knew what he would do. In this view, God is like a frozen, abstract “brute fact” without any feelings for humanity or anything else. Such a God has no qualities that could be described by the word “personal.” And worse, such a God is utterly distinct from the God of the Bible.
I’m sure you have heard of the Openness of God. Clark Pinnock has done a lot of good work on this aspect of God creating creatures capable of making truly free decisions that makes the future open and not “known”. I reject the Aristolian view of a static God, the Unmoved Mover, who already “knows” everything. Love is best experienced by creatures free to love or not love. God desires personal relationships. You are free to choose not to respond. That is your loss and it saddens your Creator.
Another problem is the doctrine of prayer. The truth of the matter is that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. Sure, most Christians (including myself when I was one) have a small collection of “answered prayers” that we treasure as “proof” – but those “answers” could be explained any number of ways (coincidence, selective memory, mind power, etc.), and everyone of every religion (Hindu, Muslim, Jewish) has their own collection of “answers” that they think “proves” the truth of their God. It is clear that the universe operates as if there were no God “running” things. We get random earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunnamis, child cancer, whatever, you name it. The world is indifferent (on a statistical level) to our prayers. It matters not if we are Hindu, Atheist, Muslim, Christian or Jew – we all suffer the same fate and our prayers are not, as a general rule, answered.
You cannot say that “the truth of the matter” is that God does not answer prayer. That is as narrow minded and fundamentalist as those that irritate you. Of course your statement only makes sense if there is no personal God who hears prayer. You don’t know that. You can only ascertain He doesn’t answer prayer because He may not answer prayers the way you think He should or in the way most think He should.
Paul Johnson came to believe there is a Supreme Being based on his research on the four fundamental scientific laws of the universe. He is not a Christian or even a Theist, but he makes an excellent case for Supreme Intelligence.
You make some astounding dogmatic statements. Your mindset is really no different than a died in the wool pretrib fundie in that regard. I’m surprised that a person opening themselves up to a worldview without God could be so dogmatic. Your ‘doctrine’ that the randomness of nature and calamities prove there is no personal God is weak my friend. Sure, theodicy has always been a major argument to prove there is no God, but that is all it is. JOB is considered the first book of the Bible and what does it teach? It teaches that suffering can happen without our understanding why. The point of JOB is that no matter how difficult it is to understand our suffering, in the end God will have the last word and more than make up for it as Paul wrote, “I consider the sufferings of this world not worthy to be compared to that which is to be revealed to us.”
When confronted by the sudden death of worshippers at the altar, Jesus responded that God has permitted this world to exist in darkness with devils and sin where accidents and calamities happen all the time. Jesus told those wondering about the fairness of God to simply turn to God and find eternal life unless they too find themselves killed without rhyme or reason. That’s just the way it is Richard. Fallen angels have come to this world and brought sin and rebellion against God leading to woe, misery and death. The only hope for humans is to find the tree of life found in the cross of Jesus Christ. Beyond that God scoffs at intellectual rationalism.
As for the existence of life as proof of God – that argument suffers greatly under the evidence for evolution. Do you deny that evidence? Now I will admit that there is no naturalistic explanation for the origin of life, but mere scientific ignorance is not proof of God. And even if it were, it would not prove Christ over Allah or the sentient Ground of Being of the Perennial Philosophy.
I don’t accept Darwinian evolution. Read Alan Hayward’s “Creation and Evolution” where he reveals the crack among Darwinianists. He lists several ‘former’ non-theist Darwinists who no longer buy into it because of the mathematics of the Asians and European scientists who ‘prove’ the impossibility of everything a cell is made of all coming together and surviving. True, the failure of Darwinian evolution does not make the case for Christ, but complexity of the human cell does make a strong case for Intelligent Design.
What concerns me is that you have opened yourself up for ‘beings’ to appear and announce that they have seeded the planet and put life here. Many believe that is what is coming. It is my opinion that “The Alien Gospel” is one of the fastest growing religions in the world at this time. It is the fruit of evolutionary belief which allows for superior beings putting us here and putting the evolutionary process in motion. The movie “Knowing” best captures “the alien gospel”. By rejecting the Bible as a revelation of the Creator God you have opened yourself up to that great delusion.
I trust you understand I have seriously thought about these issue in great depth. Simplistic answers that might satisfy those trying to hang onto their faith in spite of the evidence do not help me – on the contrary, they only irritate me and confirm that I have made the correct decision.
So have I and your reasoning sounds simplistic to me. It would seem to me that if you found “the truth” you would be happy to be as helpful with inquirers as you have been with those trying to understand the Bible Wheel. Where is that patience I saw in you and with courtesy and kindness? And for you to say that this confirms your position makes me shake my head. This is confirmation…simplistic posters to your blog? Really?
And this brings up another BIG reason I reject traditional Christianity in general. Have you ever read the books produced by the Christian apologists? Most are truly an abomination of irrationality! Yet they are the big sellers. I do not know of any apologists supporting traditional Christianity who I respect as providing legitimate answers to the real problems with the Bible.
I’m not a Calvinist and I understand your rejection of these apologists. I gave up on them a long time ago. Clark Pinnock has done his best to open the debate on the nature of God. Have you read “The Openness of God”? http://www.amazon.com/Openness-God-Challenge-Traditional-Understanding/dp/0830818529
You say that you reject the errors of the Bible – that’s great. Do you also reject the divine genocide (Deut 2:34) and killing of all the men, women, and children except the virgin girls (Num 31:17)? If so, then you are rejecting huge chunks of the Torah. So if I can reject huge portions of Scripture as obviously inferior of God, then what is to stop me from rejecting it all as “the Word of God” and seeking some other interpretation altogether?
I said that I acknowledge errors in the Scripture. I don’t see God’s command to kill as an error.
I see the Bible as testimonies to real encounters God had with humans like Abraham and Moses. The Bible is simply a record of how the world came to be the way it is. It provides the reason for why there is suffering and death. It also promises that a loving Creator would make a way for humans to live forever if they return to trusting him, the very thing Adam did not do. The OT is simply a record of God keeping His promise until the right time when He came to earth in the Person of Jesus. Jesus said if you don’t believe in Him you will die in your sins. John 8:24.
You obviously have a problem with God’s command to kill. I don’t. From the beginning God desired to have free creatures loving one another in a beautiful world. He is determined that His plan find fulfillment. Because God respects the free will of creatures He has limited His responses.
How do you know that God was not justified in commanding genocide? Do you know the history of the people He wanted killed? Do you believe in capital punishment? Early in Genesis God makes it known to all humanity that whoever kills must be killed. You judge God and condemn God’s actions as you paint Him killing innocent women and children.
Were they innocent? They were worthy of the death penalty according to God. Who are you to judge God?
God killed a whole world in the days of Noah. And He killed those in Sodom and Gomorrah. He killed the Egyptians in the Red Sea. He killed whole cities who opposed Him and His people. He is God. Those who oppose Him and His people have to expect…death. God said He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. It is simply the wages of their sin.
God revealed Himself to Moses as a God who is lovingly gracious, compassionate, patient, kind, faithful, merciful and forgiving. But He also said that He would punish the guilty …those who refused His offers of mercy and love. He killed His own people in the wilderness and then later by Babylon’s Army….and later by the Romans. There were many women and children among His people. God is just and He is fair, but those who reject Him, He rejects. One day …very soon He is going to destroy this world and all who reject His love…2Peter 3. That is reality. If you don’t like that reality then make up your own reality that you like. There are many teachers out there to help you with that.
God has made a way to live forever. Not all will accept it.
You are in danger because you were given much in what God gave you concerning the Bible Wheel. And to whom much is given, much is required. I hope you are simply going thru a mid life crisis and will wake up to these weak tired arguments against God, the Bible and His Son. If you cause a little one of weaker faith to give up their faith, it would be better if a millstone were hung around your neck and cast into the sea. Be careful Richard about leading others from the faith. It will bring judgment.
God’s Spirit gave you a major discovery that confirms that the Word of God consists of 66 books, no more and no less. I believe that this was the final argument that needed to be settled since the issue arose greatly with the Da Vinci Code stuff.
Where is that brother I admired full of praise and quick to give glory to God? Where is that man that no doubt experienced convictions of the Spirit over and over as God made revelation after revelation to you? I can only assume that the devil has hated you for what you have done in confirming the canon and inspiration of the Word of God. Please come to your senses before you pass a line and God gives you over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. Feel free to email me: onegospel@verizon.net
regards,
Bob Brown
You ask “How can you say for sure that the Holy Spirit of God has not moved upon my heart to give me faith in God?” The answer is simple – I never said that! I said that your faith is not based upon “personal experience alone.” And you know this is true. You know you had to get your knowledge about Jesus from the Bible and/or people preaching from the Bible. I don’t know why you didn’t understand.
That is true. I did hear about Jesus, but I never heard the gospel preached nor did I ever think God loved me.
What you are not understanding is my emphasis on the Holy Spirit as the One who convicts of sin and who alone reveals God. No one by searching with their mind can find God. Only God can reveal God. He revealed himself to me because I was sincerely seeking Him and called out to Him. My experience as a nominal Catholic was of a God that I feared would judge me and send me to hell for my sins. It was impossible for me to believe God loved me. It wasn’t until that night on a Philly street that God revealed that He loved me. No one can find God unless God draws him and the Spirit opens the eyes. That is true no matter how much head knowledge or little head knowledge.
Hey Bob,
It would help other readers if you prefixed quotes with something like Richard wrote “blah blah blah.” Or you can put the quotes between standard html blockquote tags if you know how.
Now moving on to your comments. You wrote:
Yes, I am familiar with the Openness view though I have not studied it in any depth, and it is still in development so I don’t know if it would help or not.
I’m glad we agree about the inadequacy of the static “Unmoved Mover” view of God. But I don’t have any reason to think God became “sad” when I simply admitted that I no longer believe in the traditional Christian dogmas. Indeed, you don’t agree with some of those same traditions, so have you made God sad? Why do you think its OK for you to reject things but not me? The real issue is that you are sad because I don’t agree with some of the doctrines that you hold. It would be interesting to learn more about what specific doctrines are.
No, it is not “narrow minded” at all. If God chooses to answer prayers in such a cryptic fashion as to be indistinguishable from a God who does not answer prayers, than he can’t blame us for coming to that conclusion! Any rational person is justified in asserting that there is no evidence of a God that answers prayers because that is the truth. It’s really quite simple.
Why do you present this argument? I’ve never said there is no “Supreme Being.” I get the impression you are answering before hearing.
You missed my point. I have not asserted that evil is proof that the God of traditional Christian theism does not exist. I said the fact that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers is the reason I have concluded that that God does not exist. This is a HUGE problem because the Bible exhorts us to pray and to rely on God for all things. But the truth is that as soon as humans discovered antibiotics we saved the lives of millions of people that God was perfectly willing to let die miserable deaths while utterly ignoring their constant and devout prayers. What kind of theodicy can you give me for this? It is exactly what we would expect if there were no God who answers prayers. This is a general pattern of all reality. If we simply pray and rely on God, we die. I am not stating this as a “dogma” – it is simply a fact, like gravity.
You really need to quit making false accusations. I am not dogmatic in any way at all. I give good reasons for coming to my conclusions, but I admit that I could be wrong.
No, that’s NOT “just the way it is.” Talk about dogmatism! Your entire argument for the Bible is based on the assumption that the Bible is true. It is entirely circular. You have not presented any evidence at all. What if the Bible is wrong on this point? How would you know? You already have stated that you believe there are errors in Scripture. Your argument would not convince anyone but those who already believe. And that’s not a very good argument, is it?
I already granted the problem with the origin of life. Why press this point? It doesn’t have anything to do with the problems associated with the God of traditional Christian theism.
You say you reject “Darwinian evolution.” Does that mean that you reject common descent? If so, how do you refute the mountain of DNA evidence that proves it? Remember, we use the same DNA science to determine innocence and guilt in capital cases. I know of no rational reason to reject the evidence for common descent.
Sorry, but that sounds like paranoid fundamentalist ravings to me.
The problem is not with “God” per se, but with the Biblical presentation of “God.” Your attempt to whitewash the biblical account only amplifies it in my mind. It shows how anyone who simply “believes the Bible” has their minds and morals corrupted. The moral abominations attributed to God in the Bible are really there. Why do you think fundamentalist Christian Paul Copan wrote a book called “IS GOD A MORAL MONSTER?” if there were not real problems with this issue in the Bible? Your simplistic response only confirms my conclusions.
It’s easy. I have a moral sense of right and wrong.
You talking about the 32,000 virgin girls who were kidnapped to be sex-slaves for God’s people (Num 31)? Yeah, I read about them. They were real criminals and deserved to be raped by those who murdered their families.
You are terribly confused. I never judge “God” per se. I am judging what a BOOK says about God. And you have admitted that book has errors, so maybe this is another one of them.
I am ambivalent about capital punishment. If courts make a mistake, there’s no undoing it. And we also have the problem that the folks with enough capital rarely get the punishment, whereas poor folks are murdered by the state with a disturbing frequency.
Again, I am not judging God. I am talking about a book that makes clams about God.
OK – let me get this straight. The Gospel is this: God says “LOVE ME, or I will KILL YOU.” Who could refuse an offer like that?
And could you define what you mean by “very soon”? I suspect that you cannot because people have been dogmatically LYING about God coming “very soon” for a VERY LONG time! That’s another reason I reject the whole Christian thing. It has led millions of people into rank insanity where they no longer know the meaning of ordinary words like “soon.” Christian zombies gave TWICE failed doomsday predictor Harold Camping 80 MILLION DOLLARS between 2005-2009. Religion is a mind killer.
What kind of parent gives a five year old a loaded gun and tells him “Now I don’t want you to shoot yourself, but it’s your choice?”.
I’m not leading people “from the faith.” I’m merely speaking the truth as best I can. What would you have me do? Lie? You know the truth. Almost all Christians believe outrageously absurd crazy crap and call it the truth of God. If I can lead one person away from such error, I will be happy.
It’s ridiculous that you call my arguments “weak” and “tired” since neither you nor any Christian apologist can answer them.
I agree that the Bible Wheel is amazing, and all the evidence for it stands. But the crazy crap taught as “Christianity” final took its toll on me and I have to speak the truth. I am in no danger from “God” so long as I speak the truth.
Your statements are true. I felt a constant rush of “revelation” and “confirmation” over the years that I studied and wrote the Bible Wheel book. But times change. Minds mature. I now see that much of what I thought I understood was immature. Much was ridiculously fundamentalistic and ignorant. But much was correct. I’m sorting it out now. Your response shows that you need to practice what you preach. It’s like you are panicking, as if you had no real faith in God at all. You are not talking to me rationally. You are hyper-emotional. You are browbeating me, and assuming the worst without even really reading what I write.
If only God can reveal God, and if only God can draw me, why are you trying so hard? Why don’t you try to establish points of mutual understanding upon which we can build?
[quote]Richard said: “It would help other readers if you prefixed quotes with something like Richard wrote “blah blah blah.” Or you can put the quotes between standard html blockquote tags if you know how.”[/quote]
I did take the time to put them in tags but for some reason they were not recognized. Sorry. I used used on some blogs, instead of [] so I’ll try again.
[quote]Richard said: “I’m glad we agree about the inadequacy of the static “Unmoved Mover” view of God. But I don’t have any reason to think God became “sad” when I simply admitted that I no longer believe in the traditional Christian dogmas. Indeed, you don’t agree with some of those same traditions, so have you made God sad? Why do you think its OK for you to reject things but not me? The real issue is that you are sad because I don’t agree with some of the doctrines that you hold. It would be interesting to learn more about what specific doctrines are.”[/quote]
Richard, we never did agree on some doctrines like the fallen human nature, preterism etc. You are beginning to show thinking that is not of the Spirit of God. What you write here is not spiritually rational. It is not non-esssentials where Christians are not in agreement that makes me or God sad, but the ESSENTIALS. Essentials like the Divinity of Jesus, the substitutionary atonement, God’s revelation of Himself in nature and Christ and the Bible, you know…the basic essentials. Your inability to ‘get this’ is an indication, to me, that the Spirit of God is not with you in your thinking.
[quote]Richard said: “I said the fact that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers is the reason [b]I have concluded that that God does not exist[/b]. This is a HUGE problem because the Bible exhorts us to pray and to rely on God for all things. But the truth is that as soon as humans discovered antibiotics we saved the lives of millions of people that God was perfectly willing to let die miserable deaths while utterly ignoring their constant and devout prayers. What kind of theodicy can you give me for this? It is exactly what we would expect if there were no God who answers prayers. This is a general pattern of all reality. If we simply pray and rely on God, we die. I am not stating this as a “dogma” – it is simply a fact, like gravity.”[/quote]
Well God and Jesus’ credibility is totally on the line with this accusation that God does not answer prayer. Your conclusion is that He doesn’t and therefore you will not believe in Him as revealed in the Bible. God says He does. I’ll believe what God tells us thru His inspired Servants including Jesus. The problem is always with HOW God chooses to answer our requests. A loving parent will always respond to the requests of a little child according to what is BEST for the child.
You accuse God of being mean and uncaring. Do you see what God sees? Do you know the future? We can deal with the pain of a bee sting without any intervention simply because we know it is temporary and all will be fine. Maybe God looks down on all suffering and sees it like we see a bee sting. Maybe God is allowing suffering to demonstrate what life lived in rebellion is like. Maybe what the world is going thru has been allowed so it will never be allowed to happen again. And maybe God has a perfect answer to making things right….like in the case of Job.
[quote]Richard says, “No, that’s NOT “just the way it is.” Talk about dogmatism! Your entire argument for the Bible is based on the assumption that the Bible is true. It is entirely circular. You have not presented any evidence at all. What if the Bible is wrong on this point? How would you know? You already have stated that you believe there are errors in Scripture. Your argument would not convince anyone but those who already believe. And that’s not a very good argument, is it?
The problem is not with “God” per se, but with the Biblical presentation of “God.” Your attempt to whitewash the biblical account only amplifies it in my mind. It shows how anyone who simply “believes the Bible” has their minds and morals corrupted. The moral abominations attributed to God in the Bible are really there. Why do you think fundamentalist Christian Paul Copan wrote a book called “IS GOD A MORAL MONSTER?” if there were not real problems with this issue in the Bible? Your simplistic response only confirms my conclusions.”[/quote]
Yes, my arguments are based on the ‘fact’ that the Bible is true. The Bible Wheel helps me with that. I believe in both “general” and “special” revelation.
I believe God spoke to Moses and I believe what Moses tells us about God…not Paul Copan or Matthew Fox. I believe God did send the plagues on Egypt and did part the Red Sea and did cover by cloud by day and fire at night, and rained manna down to feed His people and had water gush from a rock to quench their thirst. I believe what Moses told us about Abraham, that when he was a hundred years old God miraculously allowed him and Sarah to have a baby. I believe what Moses told us about Noah and the destruction of the known world by water….and Sodom by fire. I believe Moses talked to God on the mountain. You don’t. Why? Because you don’t like the way God chose to reveal Himself.
You complain about God not doing something to stop suffering. Your problem is that God didn’t do it immediately. God promised Adam and Eve He would do something about sin and evil and the devil. But God doesn’t experience time like you and I do. His plan to destroy suffering and evil has taken 6000 of our years which may be just 6 days to Him.
When these kinds of questions arise in my mind, I like to go to those of faith to help me understand how they understand theodicy. Yancy’s “Disappointment with God” helped. Wiersbe’s “When bad things happen to God’s people” helped. But most of all what Jesus had to say about it helped. The book of Job helped. What I don’t do is go to unbelievers or to non-Christians to help me understand. Why? Because God has revealed Himself to me in a personal way and continues to do so every time I go to meet with Him. I have the Gift of the Holy Spirit who sheds His love abroad in my heart every time I go to commune with Him (Romans 5:5).
My answers to theodicy are fully answered by trusting God who I believe is Love. That has been revealed to me, so I search for answers and understandings in harmony with that revelation that GOD IS LOVE. Certainly the Bible writers spoke of His love and at the same time spoke of His wrath. Didn’t they have a problem with this seeming contradiction?
If God answered every prayer just the way we wanted, there would be no pain, no suffering, no death, no devils, no problems, no poverty etc. etc. I would be living on a beautiful estate with lakes and mountains …on the seashore, a stud of a man, with the most beautiful woman in the world etc. etc. Is it possible that God has permitted suffering to help humans search for Him and a Savior that He promised?
[quote]Richard said: “OK – let me get this straight. The Gospel is this: God says “LOVE ME, or I will KILL YOU.” Who could refuse an offer like that?”[/quote]
The Gospel is that “God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him would not perish but have everlasting life.” Yes, you must believe in His Son and receive as your Savior or you will perish. That is the gospel. God loves His Son and means to honor what He did for this world. If you will not honor His Son, He will not honor you. The Bible states that three different times He spoke audibly that “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” Psalm 2 clearly tells us how devoted God is to His ONLY Son. He has installed HIM as the King of this world. Bow before Him and reverence Him as LORD or you will perish in the way. God laughs and scoffs at those who cut off their ties with Him and His Word and will distress them in His anger. I pray you will return to honoring His Son. It is the only way to eternal life. “Blessed are all those who take refuge in Him” (Psalm 2).
[quote]Richard said: “And could you define what you mean by “very soon”? I suspect that you cannot because people have been dogmatically LYING about God coming “very soon” for a VERY LONG time! That’s another reason I reject the whole Christian thing.”[/quote]
In God’s time, it is ‘soon’. A thousand years is like a day to Him. When we think of eternity, trillions upon trillions of eons, a couple of thousand years is a moment. Christ warned about those who would lie about His return. That’s not a good reason for rejecting the whole Christian thing. I mean if Christ warned about that happening, and then it happened, it would seem to me that would be more of a reason to accept the whole Christian thing, but that’s me.
The bottomline for me is that the Bible and God were just talk until I had my own encounter with God. I continue to encounter Him in the Bible even when I read about things I don’t understand. That doesn’t upset my faith. I believe Moses and Abraham and Isaiah and the prophets. I believe what Jesus had to say and clearly see Him as the fulfillment of the promise given to Adam and promised in the death of the Lamb in the OT. I believe Peter when he testifies that he was an eyewitness of His glory on the mountain. Are these men liars Richard? Are they making it up? All of them? Have Jewish men been making up a story that was perpetuated generation after generation even into the first century?
Jesus said the city and the temple would be destroyed and trodden until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. The times of the gentiles refer to them hearing the gospel. Those times are almost over. He gave Abraham’s literal descendents 2000 years and He has given Jesus’ descendents, the church, both Jew and Gentile 2000 years.
I believe God’s “SOON” and our “SOON” are converging. Get ready my friend, Jesus is returning SOON, just as He promised.
Dear Richard,
You mentioned in an earlier post to Bob:
“You talking about the 32,000 virgin girls who were kidnapped to be sex-slaves for God’s people (Num 31)? Yeah, I read about them. They were real criminals and deserved to be raped by those who murdered their families.”
Numbers 31 sounds like genocide at first glance, but Numbers 31:15 refers to Moses’ anger about the women taken captive from the Midianites. These people were “plagued” because of the women having sex with men, according to this context. The children even, as assumed here, it sounds a lot like a transmission of some sickness. The fact here, is they all spread this “disease” and the speculation can be, it was better off that all these promiscuous STD-ridden people, be put to death as Moses’ commanded, rather, as God commanded Moses’ — but as we read, his officers didn’t obey. But in mercy, it appears, and in anger, he just spared the virgin women (some 32,000 as you mentioned), for the reason that they wouldn’t have STDs or “the plague”; I also imagine they must have been young girls in that case, and not to be kept as sex-slaves, but kept to live among them and be part of their “tribes” regardless of what was commanded. This of course, didn’t “agree” with the Biblical God’s command, to basically eradicate in a genocidal way — all of these people and their children, and these virgins as well (who should have rather been put to death by the command to kill them all). But he (Moses) was still vexed and angry, because they (the officers) were commanded to kill all of them. Some use this reference as genocide and that God is cruel.
I also believe that there are many references in Bob’s response about “alien evolution” type beliefs that dominate many scientific researchers in cosmology, concerning the almost “Scientology” view on how we came to exist by the “gods of the stars” planting us here, or making slaves to mine gold, or other resources, etc. These UFO stories and alien stories never convinced me of anything more than legends and myths, which perhaps arrived from the same kind of understanding that is found in the Anu, or the son of the Nephilim, or what have you mentioned in the “race of the giants” we are all told about in a mysterious, blown-over, kind of manner.
I think the idea of some kind of “hybrid-race” is kind of strange, yet in any account, it must be Biblical. Look at what Jude and Peter wrote, right? And then we have to observe the ideas surrounding Nimrod the mighty, or “Gigamesh” if you will.
I think there are some historical things that have been lost or re-written, burned, destroyed, and simply left for us to “guess” about. I have to remain open-minded about all this, because Christianity doesn’t do a great job of addressing the “strange flesh” and the concept of giants, or human-angel hybrids, or any of these strange things.
What I say, is like in the apocryphal texts, such as references to Enoch, that we certainly don’t know for certain what exactly did or didn’t happen ages ago.
The Bible is what I call, “useful” and that’s about all I can call it. It’s useful, but so is the Epic of Gilgamesh, right? We learn from the history, but no necessarily believe 100% of what we hear or interpret or see about it all. Putting the mysteries together is like doing a large puzzle spanning the ages, and uncovering the treasures of knowledge that have been buried in the sands of time.
I like how you respond to these posts, and enjoy deeply hearing your insights and your open-mindedness about these subjects. I’m not sure I would call as you do, Numbers 31 an evil or immoral genocide though, since I don’t know all the facts. If they weren’t innocent people, well, they all deserved whatever fate they fell into — but so did the Hebrews, who all died out in that stranded wilderness (due to their incompetence and apparently immoral actions as well).
In my opinion, that apparent genocide wasn’t a justifiable thing, and if the God of the Bible commanded it, well it does come off as very strongly immoral or even just plain evil. Yet for all I know, that “plague” they were suffering from, was perhaps a reason for obliterating the people — and who knows why Moses would have hung his head in distress saying, “Whatever. Keep the little girls for your own pleasure, only the virgins. I don’t really care anymore.”
But, I only speculate in a philosophical way on this subject after hearing your distress concerning that apparent genocide, and your feelings about it.
Have you done any research on the ideas expressed in the discovery series “Ancient Aliens”? I find it all fascinating, but highly speculative. Nevertheless, I hope you hear my insights on Numbers 31, not as in an “apologetics” manner, since I find the Bible to be a trustworthy collection of manuscripts for historical purposes, but not inerrant or without it’s own problems.
Just wanted to put my two-cents in on this subject, because for all I know, those Midianites were biologically “wrong” like the people buried in the flood account. But not everyone in the Biblical stories seem very “moral” in their actions, especially in light of how God instructs the commanders to kill even the livestock. But the fact is, if this was all found out to have been true to the word, or to the history of these events, we certainly don’t know the real reasons for such “exterminations” or what lies in store for the world in the ages to come.
Hope this was insightful to consider, I definitely share your concerns and your reservations on these subjects. So, hope you enjoyed hearing my reflections on this, as I’m probably stating things you’re already well-aware of (like “the plague, and the attitudes and the stories around Numbers 31).
Any other thoughts on these issues that you could perhaps enlighten me on, maybe I’ve overlooked some details here? Open to your insights always.
Wish you the best always!
–Jake
May I attempt an answer to what we must believe to be saved?
John 3:16 implies we must believe in Jesus. Further, Jesus himself claimed to be the exclusive path to salvation. But what does it mean to “believe in Jesus” Make a decision on a day, read a wrote prayer and be done with it? I do not think so. I think it means to comprehend the Gospel message, take up your cross and follow Jesus. And knowing that in following Jesus, you are following a specific way, truth and life.
But I am at a disadvantage here because I say these things in the light of a loving God who answers prayers and left his words in some ancient manuscripts. I understand this does not hold water for you at this point… please do not be offended for me saying that.
I also came to a time in my life where my knowledge of the world, my faulty understanding of the nature of God, my lacking understanding of the word of God, came together such that I just flushed it all. And i embarked on a quest for the “truth”. I’ve been there.
Speaking of dark days… there were many… but one day, I met someone who actually lived the way and the truth… not a sitter in a pew… a live-er and a love-er. And then a spark ignighted in me and… yes… I had an experience with the God of the Bible..and so here I am… Working out my salvation in fear and trembling.. and I wont trade this experience… this Life for anything the world has to offer.
But this must sound like nonsense to you… You have as much as said this is delusional… if I have read you right…
but with all that said, may I say I am hopeful for you on your search for truth. It is more than most do, and I believe that those who diligently seek the Truth find it in the end.
I had a great friend who was like you Richard, very enthusiastic about the gospel, intelligent and loved to read and learn. He had to leave the seminary and go to California and decided to finish his M.Div at SF Theological Seminary. There he imbibed Tillich and other liberal theologians that led him into this cosmic consciousness. He invited me to read this stuff and sent me books and tapes to read. I started reading this stuff and soon found myself questioning God, the Bible and the Gospel. I was quite surprised one day to find myself sitting in my house and wondering if God even existed as I finished reading a liberal theologian on Palestinian Judaism.
I realized that liberals have their presuppositions as much as the conservatives do. At that point I decided that my presupposition was that there was a Creator. That takes faith, but I jumped into studying Intelligent Design and found good support for that presupposition. I believe the first verse in the Bible and presupposed that Moses and the writers of the Bible were telling the truth about their encounters with God. As a result I believe in Jesus Christ and have the Holy Spirit as a result.
My friend is still wondering all over the place with his presuppositions. We have little contact any more. He has gone totally liberal in every aspect of his life. We have little in common. It does sadden me.
I will end my comments on your blog Richard. You will have to wrestle with your presuppositions and faith statements. It is a serious thing to reject Christ as Savior and His death as God’s way of reconciling sinners to Himself. I see the spirit of antichrist as an angel of light leading many to abandon the faith once given to the saints. The Bible foretells a great falling away in the time of the end due to science falsely so called. It reminds me of the gnosticism in the first century that threatened the early church and addressed by John in his three letters, gospel and Revelation.
I will no longer recommend the Bible Wheel or your site since your testimony is anti-Christ.
all the best,
Bob
Hi Stephen,
I really appreciate your comments. But you make an unfounded assumption when you say that “this must sound like nonsense to you.” On the contrary, I think I have a clear understanding what you are saying and why. I just don’t believe it for many reasons. You begin by arguing that to be saved, a person must “comprehend the Gospel message, take up your cross and follow Jesus.” This creates many problems. What about those who never heard? What about those who misunderstood what they heard? And most significant, how do I know if I have properly “comprehended the Gospel message?” Mormons, JWs, Catholics and every variety of Protestants from KJV Only to gay-affirming Episcopals all think their interpretations are correct over all others. So how does a person know? Every person merely believes what they believe. There is no objective basis to judge between them because their beliefs are just that – beliefs based on unproven assumptions. That’s why it’s called “faith.”
As for the “spark of love” that ignited in you: that sounds great! But tell me this, have you not seen exactly the same LOVE in the eyes of Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and Atheists? In other words, LOVE does not depend on religion at all. Love is not exclusive to any religious sect. One religion might help one person learn the lessons of LOVE and another religion might help another. But to suggest that any one religion – especially one like Christianity which is so complex as to give rise to hundreds of contradictory versions with different salvation requirements – is to fail to comprehend the one message most religions share: God is LOVE, and to LOVE is to know God. There is no greater truth.
I would be very interested to know how you deal with the question of how folks who never hear the Gospel get saved. I’ve never seen a satisfactory solution, and this appears to make your version of Christianity untenable because it is centered on the concept that we are all sinners in need of salvation through explicit knowledge of the Gospel and the name of Jesus. So either your interpretation is false and God somehow saves folks who never heard, or he is a horrible God who didn’t care enough about those in need of salvation. I find neither case plausible, so I cannot accept the premise that everyone needs “salvation.” I think that is an entirely invalid view of reality. The truth is that we all find our unity in LOVE and if God exists, God is that LOVE that unifies all sentient beings. It is an “organic truth” derived from the nature of Reality (as opposed to an arbitrary rule) that sinners cannot enter into that love without repentance. So there’s the Gospel. We must repent from sins like selfishness, hurting others, and all that, and then we enter LOVE. Knowing the Bible stories about Jesus can perhaps help people enter the LOVE, but it also can give a false sense of justification to people who are very far from LOVE. Most folks who adhere to your version of Christianity think that we humans cannot LOVE without being magically mystically transformed when we “get saved.” I see no reason to believe that since I have personally seen great LOVE in those who reject that version of Christianity.
Great chatting!
Richard
Dear Mr. McGough,
I came across the Bible wheel for the first time on the twentieth of June of this year of our Savior. I was very excited and am looking forward to exploring your revealed work. While I was exploring your website I came across your discussion of Who created the Bible wheel. I must confess I was quite perplexed on many different levels. I had to ask myself if the Lord had placed this burden in my heart, or was I just terrified at the concept of someone knowing the Word and seeing the design so clearly wrote these words. Well as the days passed as they tend to do I had written you a book in my mind. I had even sat at the keyboard a couple of times to write to you. Each time I stared at the monitor and asked,” What can I say to someone that knows it all?”. Then I would get up and review your discussion comments in my mind, all the while adding to the book that was rapidly formulating in my head. I have since come to the conclusion that the Lord had placed you on my heart and mind. I do not struggle so much with your questions,[ Proverbs 14:6 A scoffer seeks wisdom and finds none, But knowledge is easy to one who has understanding.]“Glory to Jesus for the wonderful gift of God” I wish I knew you and we were close friends that I could tell you that you are apostate and how much it grieved me, you knowing the love I have for you and how much it was hurting me. Well I do not know you and you do not know me. God does, He knows’ us both. I know the Living very personal, concerning, lover of our souls. He is the author and perfecter of Faith. The Living Water that is the gift of God.
I did not understand how you could see the design of the Bible and all of Its’ intricacy, and be able to question the content. Then I read your first and foremost response to Joel. Then you must understand that Jesus is the Design of the Book, it is Jesus who wrote the Book. The Word of the Lord is Spirit and the greatest gift ever given to humanity. Without Jesus no one will ever be able to know the Living God. Jesus is the Way. He is our Savior the reverser of the curse. With that said I now question what it is that you see. What possibly are you going to add to God are you His counselor. I sincerely hope I have misunderstood, [For the heart knows its own bitterness, and a stranger does not share its joy.] you.
As far as “the guy up in the sky” is concerned is and never was God. Man could make anything of the created a god, and make a very happy or fitting god out of it. Never the less it will remain what it is no matter what we make out of it. God the Creator is Holy, and magnificent to a degree that we will not ever be able to fully comprehend. Our Holy God 3 in 1 was not ever created and will always be God no matter what we all think of Him. Jesus has always been the only True religion. The bringer of Joy. There is not one building on this earth that is the church of God. Four our repentant souls are the gift of the Father to His Son, the Church His Family. (Bride) So I ask do you question the religion of men or the Religion of God? Is it the Word you question and is left wanting, or is it what we as men do with it that is left wanting? You say that your cup is running over with the knowledge of god, yet you commented that you do not feel the need to form an opinion of Jesus at this time. Jesus is God and He is the Redeemer of our souls and until you recognize this you are wasting your time and you might as well look for spiritual insight in the 1960’s cartoon of Mr. Magoo. Sure one could see without God we are all so helplessly near sighted that we are for all intensive purposes blind. As well as the fact, that like Mr. Magoo we all walk around ‘luckily” avoiding disaster and spreading chaos in our wake, unaware of it. Now I know that is absolute foolishness, but we can gleam a great deal from almost anything when we have the only Teacher. One could read the Bible a thousand times, without the Holy Spirit the Gift of our Father we as fallen man cannot understand it. It is the greatest gift to mankind, completely sufficient to convert the souls of His.
As far as your example of Numbers 31, have you considered how it is that God, through Mary gave us The Spotless Lamb.
I pray that you will realize that the only truthful answer that the mathematics professor could respond is… Of course how else could you possibly know anything without the proper foundation? I heard another story of a university professor that was razing one of his students for being a Christian. (As if) How that he was a very learned man and that he had read the Bible from cover to cover and he didn’t see anything spectacular about it. How it contradicted what his other very important peers have to know. Then my Brother responded “well what do you expect reading someone else’s mail?
I long for the day of our quickening, and to Behold His Splendor! As far as dark days and doom, doom, doom. Dark days we are in them, for the god of this world is running its course and his cup is going to overfill. God will do just as He said. God will not be mocked. Doom, how many do you suppose died in 1970,1980, or July 11, 2011. Have you ever heard the quote by C.S. Lewis [“It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one or other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilization—these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit—immortal horrors or everlasting splendors.”]
One of many Prayers of the Puritans; [“God of grace, thou hast imputed my sin to my substitute and has imputed His righteousness to my soul, hast clothed me with a bridegroom’s robe, decking me with jewels of holiness but in my Christian walk I am still in rags, my best prayers are stained with sin. My penitential tears are so much impurity; my confessions of wrong are so many aggravations of sin. My receiving the Spirit is tinctured with selfishness. I need to repent of my repentance. I need my tears to be washed. I have no robe to bring to cover my sins, no loom to weave my own righteousness. I’m always standing clothed in filthy garments and by grace am always receiving change of raiment for thou dost always justify the ungodly. I am always going into the far country and always returning home as a prodigal and always saying, Father forgive me, and Thou art always bringing forth the best robe again. Every morning let me wear it, every evening return it in. Go out to do the day’s work in it. Be married in it. Be wound in death in it. Stand before the great white throne in it. Enter heaven in it, shining as the sun. Grant me never to lose sight of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, the exceeding righteousness of salvation, the exceeding glory of Christ, the exceeding beauty of holiness and the exceeding wonder of grace. I am guilty but pardoned. I am lost but saved. I am wandering but found. I am sinning but cleansed. Give me perpetual broken heartedness. Keep me always clinging to Thy cross. Flood me every moment with descending grace and open to me the springs of divine knowledge sparkling like crystal flowing clear and unsullied through my wilderness of life.” ] Confession, purging of the soul. That’s the plea of this petition. Is it part of your prayer life?
It would be really great if I could accurately, remind you of the time when you realized how much time you have wasted. I can picture it something like this; It was a rainy day and you had been consciously under the Lords care for around four years when it struck you how much time you have wasted. You felt the weight of the guilt of your squandered life and how much you wanted to redeem the time that was wasted. Then you were in inconsolable tears when the concept of the brevity of life hit you like a freight train. As you were crying out to the Lord asking for forgiveness our wonderful Counselor came and revealed to you the Beauty of Eternal Life. That time is not such an issue to the One we reside in. Whom is outside of time and space. As you rise from your knees with an indescribable Joy that only is possible from the lord, you walk out to the porch with each step in tranquility. There as you step out, there in the sky you see a rainbow, streams of sunlight piercing through the silver clouds. Then all of a sudden you happen to see the outline of the clouds to be an unmistakable heart and you hear the Father at that moment say “I told you I LOVE you”. You stood there for a moment perhaps gave a sigh of relief. Then the phone rang and as you were walking to answer, an idea submerged from your mind that you should try to record to share with others what you just experienced. It was all so clear and you felt a great burden to make sure everyone knew the Truth. “For you Knew that it was truth at this moment because you Knew that what you were “feeling” was not of you”. Well you were so enraptured with the thought the phone stopped ringing, and you were unaware that it had. As you sat at your typewriter you were transcribing your thoughts so fast the thing sounded like a Gatling gun. All the while feeding on the Joy how easily and freely you were “working” on the project. As you paused to stretch your fingers the phone rang again and you realized just how thirsty you were so you walked to the phone a little faster. Now this is where it gets a little fuzzy, I’m not able to continue for as I said before I do not know you. The story can however; on the phone is that friend, and brother. He just happens to be really striking your nerves lately. Perhaps what it is that has been rubbing you the wrong way about him is his constant going. The fact that he always doing something and you really can’t see the purpose of half the things he does. Perhaps it was, he is not really interested in shaking every leaf of Doctrine to see the “Big Picture”. Whatever the case was, you felt a type of irritation just at the sound of his voice. Perhaps the irritation you felt at this moment was the split second you considered to tell him of your newest project and your life altering revelation, like so many things in the past that you felt he had no interest in. But in all fairness you realize that is not the case for after all he is your brother but he certainly does not have the time. Now here is the rub, he is asking you if you are able to come help out at the “homeless shelter” for their roof fell in do to the rain. Now I am totally out of the story for I do not know you. But I do ask; Do you return to the study and finish the “work” that you were so enjoying? Do you go help your brother? Should you have ever left the porch? Who was it that called the first time?
If you stayed please do not forget to put the most important part. Were you heard the I LOVE you. If you go perhaps you will find out why our brother feels the need to always go, go, go!!!! As for leaving the porch that is not an issue for I suggest you were in the Bosom of our Father Living in the Life that was, is, and forever will be our treasured Gift of Eternal Life. Worthy, Worthy, Worthy, Holy, Holy, Holy is our Shepherd and Caretaker. His name is Jesus if you are still in question.
I pray that thou knowest the Gift of God.
Hey there Bob,
Sorry for the slow response. I’m just now getting to my emails and blog after a week at the Rainbow Gathering in the forest near Mount St. Helens.
As for the HTML tags. You used the tag “quote” between square brackets when you should have used “blockquote” between angle brackets.
You wrote:
I do not make an “accusation that God does not [as a general rule] answer prayer.” That is an OBSERVATION as valid as any other fact of our common reality. You know it as well as anybody. That’s why Christians have created a world of explanations about why God doesn’t answer prayers. If the Christian God really did answer prayers, it would be an instant and obvious witness of the truth of Christianity and Christian apologists would constantly appeal to the answered prayers as proof of their religion. But exactly the opposite is the case. Christians are always on the defensive trying to explain away why God doesn’t actually answer prayers despite the many promises in the Bible.
Your argument that a “loving parent will always respond to the requests of a little child according to what is BEST for the child” is the only proof needed for my position. For centuries, God let his people die from easily preventable diseases like the plague. It didn’t matter how many people prayed and fasted. God let them die by the millions until we humans developed antibiotics. As long as we relied on God for our needs in this life, we DIED.
Again, I do not “accuse God” of anything. I am simply speaking the truth to the best of my ability concerning Biblical claims about God. But as for your “bee sting” analogy – that’s great! It may have some truth in it. But if it does, then you have destroyed the primary doctrine of the fundamental Christianity which is that the “sting” of sin is eternal conscious torment in hell. It sounds like you are suggesting that “nothing really matters” since it will all work out in the end. That’s a very strange position for a fundamentalist Christian, and if true, it still does not help with the problems of God not answering prayers or human suffering.
OK – So you believe all the stories are “literally” true. Does this include the creation story? Are you a Young Earth Creationist? Do you believe that a literal snake had a literal conversation with a woman literally made from Adam’s rib? If this is your position, then you have placed yourself above the truth God who created this universe and gave us brains that enable us to interpret the evidence that shows the earth is about 4.5 billions years old.
The problem is not because I “don’t like the way God chose to reveal Himself.” The problem is that the literal interpretation of the Bible is demonstrably false because 1) it contradicts an ocean of known facts, and 2) is logically incoherent. Therefore, it is impossible for a mind with integrity to “believe” that the Bible is “literally true” in every detail.
First, your idea that God has “taken 6000 or our years” again suggests that you believe that Adam and Eve were literal people that lived just 6000 years ago. That’s a scientific impossibility.
Second, my complaint is not about how long it takes for God to resolve the problem of suffering. My point is that there is no evidence that the Christian God is doing anything at all. We all die as long as we “rely on God.” We live if we use our minds and develop science so we can kill bacteria, surgically remove cancers, feed the starving, and so forth. None of this has anything to do with any “actions” on the part of God. We are obviously “on our own” in this regard.
When I was a Christian, I made a lot of “assumptions” that worked “well enough” to whitewash this problem. It was not a big problem to me at the time because I was blinded by the glory of what I had seen in the design of the Bible and how it connected with the Gospel message. But now that I am aware of this problem, I know that no solution along the lines of the traditional Christian theodicy offers any help at all. It’s just preaching to the choir. The answers are utterly inadequate and would convince only those who already believe.
I too believe that “God is Love.” But I see no reason to believe that the Christian fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible is correct. Hindus also believe that “God is Love.” I just talked to one a few days ago. But they don’t have the problem with theodocy because they don’t have an exclusionary religion that says God hates and will damn to hell those who don’t believe! That’s the problem. The “God” that you are preaching does not seem to really love anyone that he plans on letting die horrible deaths and then burn forever in hell. Sorry … it’s just not possible to call that “Love.”
If God didn’t want us to believe that he would answer every prayer, then he should not have told us that he would!
Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Why do you act as if I just made up this problem. You are now arguing with the promises of the Bible, not with me.
My problem is not with “suffering” per se. My problem is the Christian doctrine that says we should rely upon God to help us in our physical lives. If we do that, we die. We are on our own in this regard. God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers concerning the things of this life. I am very precise in my statement because I think we can interact with “God”, but not in the way that a literal reading of the Bible would suggest.
There are huge problems with your faith. What about people who never heard the Gospel? Are they automatically condemned to hell? If not, how to they get to heaven without believing in Jesus? I think a careful study of this problem shows that your position implies that babies and all who never heard go to an eternal conscious torment in hell. I find that absolutely impossible to believe and absolutely contrary to the assertion that “God is Love.”
Now I had written: “And could you define what you mean by “very soon”? I suspect that you cannot because people have been dogmatically LYING about God coming “very soon” for a VERY LONG time! That’s another reason I reject the whole Christian thing.” You responded by writing:
The Bible was not talking about some mystical undefined “God’s time” when it said that Christ would be coming “soon.” If that were the case, then there is no MEANING to the word “soon” at all. Your attempt to explain away this problem makes God look like an idiot who doesn’t know how to use words to communicate clearly. I reject that view of God.
The bottom line for me is that you are mapping your numinous experiences of “God” onto the Christian grid just like a Muslim or Hindu would map their numinous experiences onto their respective religious grids. None of this provides any objective evidence for the truth of any of those religions.
You encounter God in the Bible, the Muslim encounters Allah in the Quran, and the Hindu encounters Brahman in the Upanishads. Why do you think your encounter is more valid than theirs?
As for Peter’s testimony – I have no way of judging anyone as a liar or whatever. When he reports on his experience, I receive it as such. Something amazing is recorded in the Bible regarding Christ but it has been corrupted by 2000 years of dogmatism and false religion like a thousand years of Catholicism. What happened to the mystical understanding? I want truth, not corrupt dogma designed to enforce a corrupt religious hierarchy.
That’s nice and all, but you just made it up. The Bible doesn’t define the “times of the Gentiles.” And what are you gonna say in the year 3000? Oh right, you won’t be here to eat your words like every single date-setter that has predicted falsehood since the beginning of Christianity.
If there is a “God’s soon” vs. “our soon” in the Bible, then the Bible is utterly meaningless because the words don’t actually mean anything. This is very common amongst fundamentalist Christians. I have spent years debating eschatology on my forum and have seen the vast majority of Futurists just make up a mountain of non-biblical concepts so they can predict that “Jesus is coming soon … just like the Bible said 2000 years ago!” Brilliant.
Richard, I know you say you no longer believe the Bible. But God tells His watchmen to preach the Word whether they listen or not (Ezk. 3). It will be His Word that will be our Judge on the Day of His appearing. I’ll be praying that you return to Him, Who alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but through His only Son. I will pray for Rose as well.
Galatians 1:6,7 “I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 3:1 “You foolish… who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?”
1Timothy 6:20 “Guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”— 21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith.”
Hebrews 6:4-8 “For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.”
Hebrews 10:29 “How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
Hebrews 10:37 “FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,
HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.”
1Corinthians 16:22 “If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed.”
Could someone help me with a word I came across, I’ve searched for this definition and have only found the second half, the word is: Apichet,…Chet I found, but not the “Api”.
Thanks,
Hello again Richard,
I wanted to share something that happened this morning to me. As I was pulling into my parking space at my place of employment, as I was cracking the window of my car I noticed a rainbow in the sky. At that instant the sermon that I was listening to exclaimed how much God loved us. I did not have to look for the outline of a heart in the dirty clouds to say what came so naturally. Thank You, for being Who You are!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now perhaps you think of me as delusional, or even a liar. Well once again I am reminded by the Song as I’m listening to my mp3 player Third Day sings [be it rain or shine I’ll be just fine]
were did you come across it?
I have not been able to find the definition of the word “apichet”. It is possibly however an Asian name, that I was not able to find the meaning of. I did on the other hand find a great illustration though, by abbreviating api, and referring to the Hebrew letter of Chet. Application programming interface (API) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_programming_interface.
The letter Chet http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Aleph-Bet/Chet/chet.html
The definition in.. say the “wonderful perspective” is Eternal Life. Though that is already defined so clearly without the need of slang. If you do not see the picture clearly you really need to go to the second link and see the meaning of Chet. Also did you know that the numeric Value to the Name of Jesus is 888. I will continue to hunt for the definition if you so desire, for I really do enjoy helping. The scenery really makes life worth living. In Christ
i would hate to trip anyone up from seeing the illustration, so what i should have typed was [by using the acronym A.P.I..]
Jeremy Anderson,
Honestly, I can’t understand a word you’re saying. I am just left confused and baffled by your ramblings and very “Christianese” speak. Are you a college-educated person?
I don’t mean any offense, I just wanted to say that you make absolutely no sense at all. I actually think I’ve lost brain cells just reading your responses.
Again, sorry if this is cruel to say. I’m uncomfortably direct at times. But you make yourself seem like a prophet, or a spokesman from God — or something of that nature. Do you think you’re a prophet, or that God has required you to speak to Richard in these foreign words? Are you tripping on acid? I mean, I follow Christ because I choose to have faith, despite even many of the evidences I’ve seen to the contrary — I still believe. I don’t condemn anyone, because if God is all-powerful, I know He’ll put everything in order eventually.
In any case, you haven’t written a single coherent thought or sentence, and I’m just worried about you. If you proclaim faith in God and in Christ, then you might be better off trying not to talk about it publicly until you acquire more aged and matured wisdom. Please don’t think that Richard is “an apostate” by any means. He’s just asking questions, and thinking. Is it a crime against the God of the Universe, to think? And if you think he’s guilty of any sin, then the only sin he is guilty of is thinking. So please quit trying to preach to Richard, because his level of expertise far exceeds that of an average run-of-the-mill fundamentalist Christian. Richard isn’t stupid, and “if” there is a God, and “if” Jesus is God, then I’m positive that “All the sins of man I will forgive” means ALL of them, and that He has no grudge to bear any more against Richard, than He has to bear against you — as you are also “just a sinner saved by grace” right? Let God be the judge. You really shouldn’t judge Richard as anything, because He’s a learned man, and he isn’t a fool.
I responded to you, because I was just curious as to your style in writing. It’s hard to follow. You’re very unclear in making your points. I don’t even know what your points were. Hard to comprehend. (I’m a writer, that’s why I ask). I don’t know if Richard would be able to decipher your words, even though he could decipher Hebrew codex in a non-linear depiction of the Biblical canon, and he is intelligent enough to see through you (I would put my money on his ability to see through your pretentious, albeit, well-meaning words.
Thanks. Again, no offense. I’m not trying to bash you. “Iron sharpens iron” right?
–Jake
Hi Jeremy,
Your post makes good sense to me. The symbol of the rainbow has deep meaning in the Bible. Two passages in particular shine out:
Genesis 9:16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.
Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
All the best,
Richard
This site may not be CHRISTIAN but it is scripturally led and based from the short time I have been on. Re: Christ; the Greeks translated the Hebrew word Messiah to be Christ. Messiah means per Strong ANY CONSECRATED ANOINTED KING, PRIEST OR SAINT. That means per the original Hebrew writings, we all have the ability to encompass Christ. Not just one of us.
HOW GOD CAN BE EVERYWHERE, SEE & KNOW EVERYTHING (my theory) – If God is in us all, then everywhere we are, God is. If the spirit in us all is unified, then all of our experiences become a collective knowledge. This collective knowledge exists on a [higher] frequency and moves to assist us in our life walk.
For the most part, everything on this site is exactly as it was when I produced it when I was a fundamentalist Christian. I am hoping to find time to review what I had written as a Christian so I can update it to reflect as accurately as possible my new understanding, but really not that much will have to be changed because the site was based unchanging facts more than opinions.
Well stated! That’s the primary problem with doctrines like hell which teach that the damned will exist forever “outside the presence of God.” Even the Bible says this is impossible:
I think the most accurate idea of God is as the “Ground of Being” in which we all exist. The Bible confirms this too:
Right now, I’m not sure if pantheism or panentheism is a better conception of God, but it doesn’t really matter since there is no need for me to rush to a conclusion.
Howdy,
Blind leader of the blind. You just cannot see how busted you are to us. It’s just like a blind guy pretending to see. His blind companions hear his descriptions of what he claims to see and are easily decieved. But, convincing as he may be, even to those with sight, all he needs to do is keep describing things he claims to see and his blindness is revealed to those with sight. Any blind dude can study the writings of seeing people and become proficient at describing things the author saw.
Those who are born again, into the spirit, now see in the spirit. And what we see here is a blind man professing to see. He has never had sight, and after years of hearing the” foolishness” being spouted from those who call themselves by Christ’s name, he decided that he didn’t belive that they had sight at all. Believing them to be blind like himself, he wrongly assumed that he could pretend to be one of them. By doing this he planned to gain their trust and create a character just like them. Writing in our own words, he would then reveal what he believed all along (or came to believe along the way) calling iit “a maturing” process instead of a lie. The plan worked at a distance, carefully writing carefully referenced descriptions from those with sight. That’s why we were so convinced he was one of us, because he said what can only be known by the seeing. That is true. It can only be known by those with sight, but it can be parrotted by those in close proximity to them. But give the blind time and they will reveal themselves as blind. People who see don’t describe their sight like a blind man, but they truly believe their eyes and are able to quickly give an aaccurate description of what’s before them! The seeing never to what we see as this man does. It’s not speculation for the seeing, it’s sight! Look, there is a mountain on the horizon; there’s a pit at the bottom of that hill; there’s a wolf at the edge of the field and he’s wearing sheep’s skins! Ha, ha, ha! We see you Richard! Good grief! Go ahead and tell us we can’t see aand we will respond appropriately. But, a word for my fellow Christians; let’s not waste too much time on this filibuster. This man has set his mind against sight for the time being. God will answer our earnest prayers concerning Him if we abide in Christ.
To Richard: It does seem that you set out on your journey with earnest intentions: to go into the camp of those deranged Christians and lead them out to enlightenment. To show them the contradictions you feel. But what you didnt count on is that they actually do see. Assuming they were lying about seeing, you are now offering us the contradictions you feel. HHere you are expecting that we will have the same experience you did. But our experience is greater because we feel and see. With logic for touch, you feel around in the dark, investigating and bringing forward the bits of evidence you find. But we are now taking you aside in pity and explaining how what you feel is only half of the story. We not only feel, we also see your evidence! What you cannot see is that it only proves your blindness and need for sight. And you do not believe us. In aa world full of blind people, it takes a real Sherlock kind of genius investigator to find out the great mysteries we’re investigating here. But all it takes is one moron with sight to walk in and see evidence that solves the case. And now here we are providing testimony like a witness in court. Here you are reading the transcript, searching for braile saying this document contains nothing! But we are telling you that if you had sight you could see the writing on it, though you can only feel and hear, taste and smell paper. This is written for those with sight! If you don’t believe us, we pity you and part ways, you to your stumbling blind ways and us to follow Jesus.
To those considering the Bible: I suppose that it isn’t important for a Bible reader to believe that the Bible is the inerrant flawless word. Jesus wants us to come as we are, and for some of us that means unbelieving. But if that’s the case, what is of the uttmost importance is that, after reading the claims made in this ancient collection of books about God’s relations with mankind, the reader recognizes that he must find out if those claims are true. He must do this because everything is at stake, according to those claims. Let the one who feels this way then put the claims to the test by doing what Jesus told them to do and seeing if what He says will happen happens! So to all those who wander about, wondering if it’s true, with everything at stake, let’s not take the word of those who claim it’s a waste of time, because they could be ignorant or decieving us! Instead let us apply every word intended for us, put it into our lives like it says to do (like food), and see if it works. If we do everything it says and then nothing it claims will happen begins happening, then we will personally know for a fact and encourage others to do what we did and put the subject to rest for themselves. Or if it is true, we will soon know that what it said was true because it happened to us, not just to this guy or that guy. But if we only read it as a work of fiction and make no effort to apply its claims to our lives, we will only have our theories. You can judge its validity based off what this guy says or what the preacher says, but until you do what this paragraph says, you’re just theorizing.
Like Jesus said, let those who can recieve it, recieve what this says.
In Jesus’ name,
~John
Wow – you’ve got one crazy obsession there John. You used the word “blind” or “blindness” eleven times in those two paragraphs! And you did it without once stating what I am not able to see. That must be a record or something for the most words with the least content.
And I must say, I find it extremely curious that you think you can speak for all “True Believers” who are the only ones on planet earth that are able to see the “secret things” that cannot even be named.
If you want to say something with some content to which I could reply, please feel free to post again.
John, I have to agree with Mr. McGough on this one. In my experience, it was the Christians who were blind to the facts, the sciences, the truths about life, and they used philosophy, which they falsely call “divine revelation” — which only God would know about. The ironic part of your message, is how blind you actually seem to be. Excuse me for being abrasive, but you are very likely blind. Just because you assume to see it all, or know it all, doesn’t make you a visionary for those who you assume must be blind. It takes one to know one right? I was “blind” at one point. Blinded by fundamental Christianity. Blinded by the foolishness of what they called “God’s voice”–which was actually just the voices of blind people who so desperately want to see God “do something” but often fail to see that their “false god” is not the God they believe Him to be. You said “God will answer our earnest prayers concerning Him if we abide in Christ” and yet I have to ask what prayers you have earnestly seen with your own eyes, answered. I have seen many things in my life. The “blindness” I had, was a contagious disease which caused me to become aggressively judgmental of “them” (the unbelievers or the blind or the lost)… yet isn’t it the “blind” and the “lost” that God said He sent His only Son to?
Just curious about your post. Have you ever asked yourself, “What if I am seeing this incorrectly, or not at all?” Have you asked yourself, “What if I’m blind to the facts?” Have you ever asked yourself, “What if I’m wrong???”
Wish you the best. And, Richard, thank you for being so level-headed in how you respond to all these posts. I can’t begin to express how interested I am in hearing your views and opinions as you grow and change. I believe you have eyes to see, and that God will reward you one day for your hard work, for your pursuing truth, and for looking for the right answers, and for asking the right questions. I know that you don’t believe in the “guy in the sky” type of God. I also know you haven’t “denied Christ” because in order to “deny Christ” you’d have to deny virtue, honesty, truth, love, peace, logic, justice, kindness, patience, endurance, empathy, and all the qualities of Christ that you seem to continue to embrace in a spiritual way.
I believe God came to save the world, but I also ask, “Why did God put this world in a prison, filled with demons and captives, with temptations around every corner? Why would an all-powerful God put us here to suffer and die, and offer very little “evidence” as to who He is?”
I’ve asked a lot of spiritual questions like this, and certainly don’t know all the answers. Anyway, I don’t think you’re blind. You seem to have a lot of insight, and I can appreciate your research and the answers you provide.
Could you tell me how to use HTML to quote something in a forum if I make any future replies? I’m not sure what to do in order to quote someone on here.
Thanks. I wish you the very best. Peace.
— Jake
Richard,
If you have the words of Jesus and have not kept them, yet you claim that prayers aren’t answered and that the claims in the Bible are false, you certainly wouldn’t recieve sight from my little post here.
As with your jouney through the scriptures, if I told you the long list of supernaturally answered prayers I have had the pleasure of witnessing within twenty-four hours of praying them, neither you nor Jake would believe them.
But God has sent me here to this forum in part because He will answer prayers that have been prayed for Him to reveal your blindness in this paragraph. As I said, give a blind person long enough to talk and he reveals his blindness. You intended to belittle the truth I speak with the triffling argument that I used the word “blindness” 11 times and didn’t manage to show you what you can’t see. Yet if your favorite singer came and sang you any song you wanted, you would not respond with a word count demonstrating the repetition of the chorus. “Oh my gosh! Did you hear how many times she said love in that song! Without even showing me love once! She’s got an obsession!” You’d appreciate the repetition and say it was beautiful like the rest of the singers’ fans. But if you heard a song you didn’t like, you
oops, it’s hard to write all this on a droid. I accidentally touched the submit button.
(continued)
…If you heard a song you didn’t like, you wouldn”t cite something that every song has in common: repetition. Nor would you cite whether or not the song made you believe in the subject at hand to express your dislike of the song. And so you’ve demonstrated your blindness. Yet you who spout all kinds of non-sense in the name of logic are here blindly demonstrating your lack of command over logic.
I know that I speak for all those true believers about this sight which you have not been given because we all see you through the same pair of eyes. We are, as Jesus prayed in John 17, in Him just as He and the Father are one. We see many things through His eyes. You can too, if you love Him. And if you love Him you fit the description He gives in John 14 of those who love Him. And if you do that then and only then have you even begun to repent, which means that you will still be saying all the kinds of things that you are writing here. This is foolishness to you, because you have never done it. In the moment you do, you will begin to see the same Richard we believers see plainly here. Ha, ha, ha, I don’t expect you to understand anymore than I would have. And Jake, I’m not condemning anyone here, rather providing a diagnosis. I’m plotting Richard’s location on the map to show where you are both lost. If you turn around and do what Jesus says, we who were in your shoes will rejoice that you are found. If you find condemnation from my description here, it is the conviction of the Holy Spirit that has made His home with us! Test the claims you now deny and find sight and life. Either way, we will all get together for a moment in the end. Then all the we won’t care about this silly little blog any more. Only that the Ancient of Days is seated in all His glory and that the books are open. There will be no more trial period to pretend to test His claims and lie that we followed His Son and that His ministry is false and hollow, fruitless! The trial period will be over then and all our claims will be tested instead
No matter the conclusion of this or any discussion… we will see you there. Then we will see; yes perhaps all of us. And you will perhaps understand my obsession, and Jesus’ obsession, with our sight.
~John
Hi John,
You wrote:
That’s not necessarily true. I probably would believe the vast majority of them because they would not involve objectively verifiable miracles. The ones I would not have reason to believe are the ones that should be objectively verifiable but are not, such as if you claimed that someone’s missing limb had been miraculously restored.
I’m surprised that you don’t understand the seriousness of this problem. The simple fact is that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. All Christians, except those who have deceived themselves through selective memory or rationalizations, know this is true. And this fact directly contradicts the promises of the Bible, such as Matthew 21:22 “And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.” Therefore, I must conclude that if your claims about “answered prayers” are true, then either you are unique amongst all Christians who have ever lived or your idea of an “answered prayer” involves things that cannot be verified. I have good reason to conclude the latter.
That is not correct. My point was not that you simply repeated yourself. My point was that you repeated your accusation of blindness eleven times without ever stating what I had failed to see. That was my point, and you did not understand it. So now that I’ve explained it to you, it would be very interesting to know if you could articulate precisely what I am failing to see. Then perhaps we could discuss whether or not your assertion has any validity. But as long as you fail to state what I supposedly am failing to see, your assertions will remain meaningless.
Wow – I’m stunned. It is rare that such madness is spoken so openly. If there is one characteristic of “true Christians” it is that they disagree about almost everything about Christianity. Are you Calvinist, Armenian, or something else? Are you Pre-, Mid-, Post- Tribulational? Do you obey the Law? Keep the Sabbath? Eat lobster, yes or no? Baptize by dunking, dipping, sprinkling, or say that baptism is not necessary? Do you say that the Roman Catholic Church was founded by Christ, or by the Anti-Christ? Are you Trinitarian, Arian, or other? I am completely stunned – the Bible Wheel blog has been blessed with A True Christian Who Sees through the EYES OF JESUS and speaks absolute TRUTH for all other True Christians!!! And besides that, God answers all his prayers! He has healed hundreds of cases of AIDS and cancer and has even restored thousands of amputated limbs … but nobody believes him because they are “blind.” He would have freed the famous quadriplegic evangelist Joni Eareckson Tada from her wheel chair, but she didn’t have enough faith. Oh yeah, baby, we’ve got a winner here!
That’s not true at all, and you have no basis to make such false claims. My Christian conversion was as real as anyone’s. You know nothing about me or what I have or have not done. Your claims are based on the false idea that no “True Christian” could ever see that he was wrong and so reject Christianity. Logically, this is the “No True Scotsman” fallacy.
The reason your comments are “foolishness” to me is because they are intrinsically foolish. You have written a lot of words without any real content. You have not even said what it is I have failed to see, so don’t flatter yourself by thinking you are preaching the true Gospel that is “foolishness to them who are perishing.” You haven’t said anything with any content as yet. So if you want to continue this conversation, please state clearly what I fail to see, and then everyone will know that there is more than empty air to your assertions.
All the best.
R. A. McGough, you say to John, “please state clearly what I fail to see”.
I believe that you are suffering a mental confusion, and a spiritual confusion, by having lost yourself in a forest, you only can see the tree before you and you have missed the big picture and the map. So, in this stance of your life you are completely confused by being immersed in a multitude of contradictory religious views, your logical judgment is dead, your mind is very impressed by a multitude of contradictory details from occultism and pantheism, and you are missing the most simple statements of truth.
If I can say something of practical value to help you get out of the confusion, I would say that I believe that in this moment you are having an encounter with the collective consciousness agent, that is to say, the powerful evil spirit that work in the children of disobedience, it is called Satan. Here I will offer you some nice key links on “children of disobedience”
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
The context of Ephesians 5:6
3 ¶ But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Observe this, dear R. A., for example, “Be not ye therefore partakers with them”, and think about your reunion will all these hippies, being you one of them. It is a simple observation, but you failed to note it! You excelled in discovering the incredible positioning of the 66 books of the Bible in a wonderful symmetric wheel, but failed to APPLY the most elementary knowledge and counsels to YOUR OWN LIFE.
What is what you are saying now? They are the “vain words” mentioned.
Hi Richard,
Thanks for speaking plainly. It is very helpful and makes for good conversation. It seems your central assertion is that I am “missing” one of the “most simple statements of truth” which is that the “collective consciousness agent” is “Satan.” Unfortunately, you forgot to mention how you came to this knowledge, so I have no way to know if you just made it up or not. But now that I think about it, I know you just made it up because there is no such thing as a “collective consciousness agent” or if there is, no one else on the planet is talking about it but you. I Googled that exact phrase (with quotes) and it was not found on any document anywhere on the planet.
So I trust you can understand why I was “missing” that “truth” you shared with me. It was not a truth at all. It does not exist in the true world aka Reality. It was just a fantasy you made up. It exists nowhere but in your own head.
Now since we’ve gone this far, I think it would be very interesting if you took the next step and tried to help by pointing to something I can’t see that actually exists.
Thanks again!
Well dear R.C. What I have said is you are missing the most simple statements of truth (“statements” in plural). What I have said of Satan is not the only statement of truth I believe you are missing, I only considered practical to show your true situation (deceived by Satan) so you can work out some escape from your sad situation.
Well, I perceive you use very much the hypothesis of Karl Jung, but many of the facts which such hypothesis pretend to account for are better explained by the existence of a personal evil being that control and influence the minds of millions of men. Just as the word of God explain to us speaking of “the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience”.
How I did come to this knowledge? Well, If you are deceived by Satan you cannot know this, because you are under his dominion, then, to see the real situation, you must experience the liberation that is given to all TRUE believers in Jesus:
Ephesians 2:1-10
1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
This experience gives the true believer real communion with the person of Jesus Christ throughout the Holy Spirit that comes to abide forever in the believer:
John 4:13-14
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 3:38-39
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 16:13-15
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.Romans 8:14-17
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint–heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
The Holy Spirit of God do in the real believer a work of discernment that make him able to perceive the truths of God:
Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Hebrew 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
During such communion with Jesus some believers can experience very powerful encounters with the Lord. I personally did see Jesus in dreams many times at the beginning of my conversion. And some few years ago I did see him in a vision encouraging me to support a hard tribulation I was passing trough. But the most important thing is that during such encounters I did understand and have spiritual communion and understanding with Jesus throughout the Holy Spirit. And such mood and inner communion is the same I can live even during the time when I cannot see Him.
Well, now about the existence of Satan, not a very pleasant issue, but very necessary to be explained. How do I know that the “collective consciousness agent” is Satan. Well, because when one is in communion with Jesus by the Holy Spirit, many truth of the word of God become of the personal knowledge of the believer. One of these things is the fact of the existence of Satan. Then the believer, far from being one with the universe, by being one with Jesus trough the Holy Spirit, begins a work of SEPARATION from the world of Satan, and the believers in Jesus are working in discerning the devil and in perceiving him to avoid him and resist him by faith in Jesus, who is in real communion with the believer.
During such communion with Jesus and the accompanying mental and spiritual fight against Satan, some believers can experience very powerful encounters in battle with Satan. I personally did encounter Satan in a very supernatural manner, in supernatural manifestations throughout a boy that was showing the same things as the Gospels narrates about demon possessed men (very horrible manifestations indeed). In dreams many times, the disturbing attacks of the devil are very evident. And some relatives of me have seen Satan in threatening apparitions while they were awake. Some believers are even under frequent visible apparitions of the enemy. But the most important thing is that during such encounters I did understand and have spiritual communion and understanding with Jesus throughout the Holy Spirit. And such mood and inner communion is the same I can live even during the time when I cannot see Him. And by the communion with Jesus I can perceive spiritually the enemy in the same manner that when I did not see his horrible visible manifestations.
I have not words to express the real battle that I am fighting against Satan, for me this passage is a wonderful reality in my life:
Ephesians 6:10 to 18
10 ¶ Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints
Hey there Richard with the Knowledge of Satan,
Thanks for the detailed explanation. It is exactly what I expected it to be. You claim that you have a source of knowledge directly from God that can only be known by “TRUE believers” – specifically, you wrote:
Your “argument” is fascinating. It appears that you are utterly ignorant of the fact that the world is filled with people who claim to have direct knowledge from God while coming to conclusions that directly contradict yours. So who is right? Do you have any real evidence or is it just your word against theirs? Is there any REASON anyone should believe you over them?
I find it very sad that there are so many people like you in the world who mistake their own thoughts and imaginations to be the very “truth of God.”
So let me ask again – can you point to something that actually exists but to which I am blind? Please understand that when I say “exists” I mean something that actually exists in the real world and which can be proven with evidence available to all rational people, not just “true believers.” Or if you can’t do that, maybe you would like to explain why anyone should believe your claims over all the others that are equally lacking in objective evidential support.
Yes, it is exactly what it is. I claim that I have a source of knowledge directly from God that can only be known by TRUE believers. I am not ashamed of it, after all, I KNOW IT! If you, and many people, do not know it, having before you the possibility of receiving the Word of God it is because you are not really rational people, but deluded by Satan, as I have said.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
You can have a clue of your lack of rational common sense in the manner in which you throw to the the garbage dumb your discovery of the Bible Wheel in the mound of the pagan and esoteric “Mandalas” that have not sense and are delusional. If you are in a state of mind that cannot discern the GREAT difference between your Bible Wheel and the vulgar pagan and esoteric mandalas, well, then you have a clue that you are not rational, but only a poor guy under the enchantments of Satan.
That’s great Richard. So tell me, how exactly do you distinguish between “true believers” and “false believers?” Oh , I get it! The “true believers” can be known because they are the people that agree with you! Brilliant! Anyone who disagrees with you is by definition not a “true believer” so no refutation of their arguments is needed because they are “blind.” That certainly makes life simple.
But I wonder, how is it possible that you fail to see that your logic is identical to that of a delusional person? Religious people of all varieties claim that their interpretation is “God’s interpretation” without any evidence or logic. How are you different than them? How do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is “true” while everyone who disagrees with you is “deluded by Satan?”
As for the “garbage dump” of Jungian Psychology and Mandalas. Your comment reveals nothing but your own ignorance of those topics. Did you read my article? The traditional icons of Christ exhibit patterns similar to the Mandala. If you had any understanding you would have recognized the significance of that “coincidence.”
Now you have accused me of being “confused” and “deceived by Satan” and lacking in “rational common sense.” But in all this, you have not presented any REASONS I should believe you, and you have not presented any EVIDENCE supporting your assertions. You, therefore, are the one lacking “common sense” and basic logic. You make the absurd assertion that you are a “true believer” in possession of knowledge that can be known only by other “true believers.” Why then are you bothering to write? Your words are utterly meaningless to anyone who is not a member of your specific species of “true believer.” Don’t you get it? By your own definition, your words are literally meaningless to anyone who is not a “true believer” so your words cannot mean anything to me if your words are true! Your logic is self-contradictory. You obviously believe that your words can be understood, or you wouldn’t be writing them. So please drop the arrogant, ignorant, and absurd assertion that your opinions are “God’s opinions” and rejoin the human race. Then maybe you could write something factual that can be confirmed by evidence, and we can come to a common understanding of Reality.
All the best!
I am speaking of very simple things here, about faith in Jesus as the Son of God that died for us to pay for our sins and to save all that have faith in Him and His sacrifice, and that was risen from the death and that will come again in glory. Why the exaggeration “Anyone who disagrees with you is by definition not a “true believer” “, please! I believe that you are frustrated because the Bible Wheel have had not the extent you had wanted and avowed, there are spokes that do not work, some connections that are meaningless, because the Bible Wheel has no controls about how associations are made. But for me, the Bible Wheel is a very good finding if we appreciate it by its legitimate scope. We can speak of the Bible Wheel as a providential arrangement that can be reached for the books of the Protestant Bible. A beautiful symmetrical presentation of the books ordered and classified. That such providential arrangement can help to see the whole Bible in a aerial view and didactic view is out of discussion.
Surely your hard work in maintaining your site, your forums, and your struggle to reach an impossible goal in giving the Bible Wheel an extend it have not, bring to you a distress and exhaustion that put you in a situation of vulnerability that did impede that you can reach in your hearth the faith that your words did begin to articulate in your book.
Then, the spiritual beast (yes, Satan) against which all of us are fighting did take the opportunity to break you and throw you to the situation in which you are, denying even the historic existence of Jesus, not to speak about His personal and divine character, not to speak about the necessity of your personal faith in Him as your savior and redeemer.
But let me to say something about Jesus:
A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
If there is some occult principle of faith in you, if there is a little spark that was lit when you were writing your book about the Bible Wheel, Jesus will not let it die completely and at some time of your life He will succeed and you will reach the true faith that now you deny and reject.
God bless you.
Hey there Richard,
I very much appreciate your effort to understand where I am coming from, but there are a lot of invalid assumptions in your comments that I would like to correct.
First, you are correct that I found the moronic response to my work to be quite frustrating, but I do not believe that is the reason I rejected Christianity. Actually, there was not one reason, but many. First and foremost, I have never been able to accept the idea of a hell where the unsaved would suffer eternal conscious torment. It is not that I did not want to believe it, but rather that I could not believe that a good God could design such an eternal evil. Another problem has to do with the Bible itself. I was so blinded by the brightness of the Gospel message (God is Love, etc.) and the amazing discoveries like the Bible Wheel that I was blinded to the dark aspects of the Bible, like God’s command to kill all the men, women, and children in the promised land. When I finally chose to be honest about what the Bible actually says about God, I had to admit that some of the things it said were morally abominable and could not be true. Likewise, I had to admit that the Bible contains many contradictions and other errors, and that much of it contradicts scientific truths. And as if that weren’t enough, I came to realize that there is no God who watches over us and answers our prayers, which directly contradicts the primary message of the Bible. Please think about these things before answering … I’ve read more than enough “answers” from Christians who claim that God answers prayers. But after a little conversation, it is soon conceded by all Christians that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. I’m talking about reality here. For example, you can go to a Benny Hinn show and watch him fake a thousand “divine healings” but then you can ask Hank Hanegraaff how many of those healings have been confirmed and he will tell you ZERO. Benny Hinn is just another conman stealing money from gullible Christians. And that’s just one example. The reality is that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. The proof is easy. Take a hundred atheists with the plague, and take a hundred Christians. Let the Christians pray, and give the atheists antibiotics. Who lives, and who dies? Enough said, eh?
Please think about the vanity of prayer. For thousands of years, God was perfectly happy to let his people die horrible deaths while begging him for mercy to heal them. God sat there and watched, and let them all die. Then along comes sinful “humans” with their godless “science” and they discover antibiotics and heal MILLIONS of people that God would have let die. So why would anyone rely on a God who is not there? A God who does not do what any normal human would do when he or she sees a person suffering? Why does God act as if he did not exist? Please think about this before answering. Why does the Bible tell us to rely on God for all things, when the truth is that we must rely on ourselves or die?
To recap, here are the three primary reasons I quit Christianity.
1) The doctrine of hell attributes an eternal evil to God and so must be rejected.
2) The Bible contains many contradictions, errors, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.
3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. But the Bible emphatically promises that God does answer prayers. Therefore, the Bible is wrong, and the God it describes does not exist.
Now, let’s look at your claim that Satan is behind all this. You wrote:
Let me clarify some facts here. First, I have not denied the historical existence of Jesus. Yes, I am much more agnostic about it, but I do not deny it. I have no such knowledge, and besides, I think it is likely he did exist. I’m just not as certain about it as I was before. Second, I have not made any statements about his “personal and divine character” so I don’t know what you are talking about. The statements I have made have been about the Bible, not the person of Jesus.
Thanks again for working with me on this. It helps a lot to have a sounding board as I try to work out what I really believe.
All the best,
Richard
But God will bless you only If you repent of your blasphemies.
Thanks God I have understood the evilness of my hearth, I have understood the goodness and holiness of God, I have understood that He is righteous when He threatened me to send me to hell, I have understood that hell was bring into existence by responsibility of the devil and by my responsibility, that I was a sinner, a rebellious against God and a partaker with the rebel of rebels, the devil. Thanks God I have understood that the devil is the evil and I am the evil, not God.
Thanks God I have understood His love, because He sent His own Son to die for me. Thanks God I have loved and now love Him because He loved me first, thanks God I will go with Him for eternity and I will enjoy and know more and more His perfect love.
Thanks God, knowing and enjoying His love in salvation, I cannot attribute Him iniquity when He execute judgments against evil peoples of antiquity, Sodom, Gomorrah, Canaanites, Israel and Judah themselves in their turn. Glory to the Lord, He is good, we are evil. Blessed is he who will trust in Him and does not exalt himself above God.
Be cursed all those that do not give God thanks for all the good things that in His providence He allow for us despite our iniquities (antibiotics for example). More cursed those that despise the sacrifice of love that God did in His Son. The sinner, without Jesus, will remain forever sinner. Blessed is he who will trust in Him.
Jake
I’m sorry I have not been able to respond to your comments earlier, fortunately I have been on vacation with my family. You have no need to be alarmed with the way I communicate Christ with others, for the letter that I wrote was to Richard and I was counting on his familiarity, with the Bible. I do not know how much he was able to get out of it, how much consideration, and thought he put into reading it. I could not fault him, for not reading my words with that much concern. He really has no idea how much I care for him, and the sorrow that I feel. I stand by what I had written to Richard, it was written with thought and my words were weighed.
[MATT 5:11-12] As far as what you said to not be cruel, I think the more important question is what the Living Word says. What does the Bible say? What are the roles and responsibilities of His children? Did I not specifically say that the Lord had placed Richard on my heart? So yes I believe that God had given me the desire to speak to Richard, and the God given love for Him, requires me to act. I’m looking forward to meditating on the offices of a “prophet” in the context, and Life with the Holy Spirit. C.H. Spurgeon once said [We are all at times unconscious prophets.] As far as the accurate post regarding the rainbow and an angel (aggelos),(Revelations 2), (messenger),(sermon with a preacher on mp3),(Bible preaching, Preacher)telling me how much God loved us, the day after the hypothetical illustration to Richard. Didn’t make me wonder if I was a prophet, the first thought following my praise to God was informing Richard as I did. My excitement was a least two fold for the following reasons.1) it confirmed in my mind/spirit that God is involved and if He is moving on my end, it encouraged me to pray that Richard is able to see on his side. 2) It gave me the opportunity to practice what I expressed to be the most important thing.
As far as foreign words I do not remember putting in any Greek or Hebrew, and if I had the recipient of the letter would have understood. In retrospect, I wish I would have used the same word for Life (Zoe) Eternal, which is used in the 17th Chapter of John.
[LUKE 9:26] As for the faith that you have professed to have, I have read what you consider to be a follower of Christ. Perhaps if you were to meditate on whom Jesus is and His entirety you would never be ashamed of being a Christian. Perhaps if you could see that the reason how anyone can follow Christ is because we are/were sinners, able to be saved by the Glory (Design) of God. To whom is our Redeemer and Bridegroom. To follow Christ you must Know Christ, most importantly He must Know you. How strong is your faith and what is your faith in. your very next paragraph states [and “if” there is a God, and “if” Jesus is God ] you say you believe but what is it that you believe?
[1COR 1:26-31 & 1COR 2:13-16] You do not condemn because you do not have the power to condemn. I have always had difficulty expressing my thoughts, almost as if I had a slight case of autism. I never have been tested and my loved ones think I’m crazy that I would suggest to having autism. The reason I have said this is because if I were to care what the councils of men and what my value was in your post I would have been very “condemned”.[JOHN 3:17] We are blessed beyond any of our minds, ability to recognize even the slightest deliverances no matter how infantile or solid “mountains” of stone. No matter what we see the important thing is what God see’s and through prayer the ability to see that exact same thing, a tool. Praise the Lord, how Great is HIS Name!!!!!!!!!
God is most definitely all powerful and everything is put in order. What do you think Jesus meant when He said on the cross “it is finished”? When does God give us Life Eternal, is it today or when we go to heaven? Is God not the God of the Living, and does not Jesus, give us life more abundantly? What is it that separates us from God, is it Him or is it us? The answer of course is sin and Jesus is the only way to redeem, reverse the curse from the fall. (3rd chapter of Genesis) Were do the battles of every sort take place, is it not the mind? Does not God know what are in our thoughts? Does God not warn us in the 4th chapter of Proverbs to, [Watch over your heart with all diligence, for from it flow the springs of life.] Here is a link of some other Passages connecting the same principle. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt12:34;15:18,19;Mark7:21;Luke6:45&version=NASB
So of course it is not an issue to think, for a faith untested is a weak and worthless faith. Christianity without truth is a lie, and without Salvation one is completely without hope to ever knowing truth. The issue is sowing discord, to young children in the faith. Jesus Christ is the only way the narrow gate, and to deviate from that is the greatest sin. To deny Jesus is to deny the Design of God. Jesus is not the one who denies us but it is our fallen miserable, wretched selves that deny what every one of us could have. Amazing Grace not what we could ever do, except only to receive. If one is not able to recognize the Glory of God and receive the priceless gift of Zoe, then that one does not know the Name of the only Christ. It is we that deny the Gift, strike the face of Christ and demand miracles, and prophecies! It is because of our very sin that God nailed our, more importantly, His Joy to the cross. The sin that we so easily wipe from our mouth, and confess to doing no wrong. I do not judge any, for there is only one True and Just Judge that is quite clear on His statutes. The very fact that you see nothing wrong with the road Richard is on screams your utter lack of knowledge (Biblical/Truth) as clearly as the taste of your pride that lingers in my mouth after reading your words. I hope that was not uncomfortably direct, but if it were that would be ok for you have already informed us that is the way you role.
As far as my writing style goes I do not know what genre it would fall under if any. Aiden Tozer once referred to an article that he had read in a paper, while giving a lesson on “The Deeper Life”. [The article was about one of Tozer’s favorite English poets, and John Milton. The author of the article had compared the poet’s style of writing, to his very mind, to that of the Greeks for he had an appetite for Greek literature. Likewise with Milton, the author referred to Milton’s appetite with the Bible. In conclusion the articles author had taken the two Englishmen, saying that one was a “Greek”, and the other was a “Hebrew”.] I do know that my post was written with prayer and it was from the heart. I thought I had established my concern of my audience in the first paragraph of my post. Now I do not know if that is also a riddle for you, or what you are able to glean from it. For the very mindset of the “Hebrew” (perhaps one could use “Christianese”) is a very special way of thinking that I felt Richard would be able to recognize. If not the Christianese the Hebrews, mindset. Now I know that my words are pretentious, for how could they not be in regards to the message and Content of the very serious issue that is being discussed.
Now in conclusion, you do not need to worry about bashing me for you are unable to bash me, because I know who I am, in the Revelation of Christ. Likewise with my personal offence, I’m good. Now the offence that I do have is with your comments regarding the 32,000 virgins. you posted “You talking about the 32,000 virgin girls who were kidnapped to be sex-slaves for God’s people (Num 31)? Yeah, I read about them. They were real criminals and deserved to be raped by those who murdered their families.” So you really believe that the Holy God, told His people to collect sex slaves, children sex slaves! Do you even know the slightest concept of what holiness is? Deserved to be raped! Really Jake, really Jake do you not see the offence? Tell you what why don’t you go into any prison yard, (no I have never been in a manmade penitentiary) express the same thing and see if “buba” doesn’t show ya what your words deserve, or if you receive a shank in your ear for your offence of raping someone’s mind. If you think that is harsh, the greatest horror would be to take such a thought to the Throne and hear your account being read off, as it shall be. I’m sure you would be looking at the floor while His children looked and saw the sorrow in His eyes. Now as far as what we will actually see in the Fathers eyes be it sorrow or wrath, the point is being able to look our Father in the eye, there is no greater Gift. Repent Jake such a statement is so wrong with man’s (society) rejects, if it were possible for you to look up into the face of Christ you would pray to see his wrath for to see His Mercy, that we have rejected would be hell. There is an expression that I have become quite fond of, it goes as so “that anywhere that you slice the Bible it will bleed” and of course that means the Blood of Jesus meaning one is able to find Jesus throughout the Bible. Now if this is a riddle I sincerely plead with you to figure it out. Read chapter 30, and rejoice that we are the bride.
I hope you learn the language and if you do please reread the Book of Proverbs, and weigh your “counsel” with the only just weight. Try to be honest with yourself, if I could challenge you to read each chapter once through your eyes, then immediately reread the same chapter through another’s eyes. The latter meaning to ask, if this perception is where you truly stand? Iron truly sharpens iron, as truly as it shatters clay vessels. Now are you a vessel of honor or dishonor? Does it really matter what we think?
I am sure if you were able to see through my eyes for a day you would believe someone had slipped you some sort of hallucinogenic. If one was able to do the impossible and produce such a drug they would have more money than the pope. There is a Truth that is complete and priceless. A.W. Tozer once said “ An infinite God can give all of Himself to each of His children. He does not distribute Himself that each may have a part, but to each one He gives all of Himself as fully as if there were no other.” Am I speaking riddles?
Here it is in a nutshell to you Jake, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa0n7GntodM
No more, no less by Mercy Me.
I now have a question for you, what are some of your writings. Did you proof read your post to me? Are you unaware of your contradictions? If I were to use duh, and um every forth word of this letter would there be no merit to it. You want to pay for my student loans?
Hey Richard,
You wrote “But God will bless you only If you repent of your blasphemies.”
Please state the specific “blasphemies” that I have written or admit that you have accused me falsely.
Thanks.
Well Richard it is timely, that the LORD as chosen now for us to post on your blog. Japan were warned a year in advance, I spoke to my family personally and warned them again that Japan was not a safe place to be. The LORD God also gave us messages about it coming a few months earlier. All messages from the LORD God are posted on our blog on a daily basis. However, the heavenly Father is different to the Son. Experience counts.
I know this if off topic but I’m looking into starting my own blog and was wondering what all is needed to get set up?
I’m assuming having a blog like yours would cost a pretty
penny? I’m not very web smart so I’m not 100% positive.
Any recommendations or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you