While I have argued strongly against false representations of Islam as a “religion of violence” I believe it is very important to look at the reasons folks have come to that conclusion. I started this thread on my forum to discuss this very disturbing aspect of Islamic culture.
This article is an example of violence against those who convert to Christianity:
Muslim Egyptian Girl Who Converted to Christianity Subjected to Acid Attack
ALEXANDRIA, EGYPT (ANS) — The Assyrian International News Agency (www.aina.org), is reporting the shocking news that Dina el-Gowhary, a 15-year-old Egyptian Muslim-born girl who converted to Christianity, has been subjected to an acid attack, the latest in a string of failed attempts by Muslim fanatics against her and her father, 57-year-old Peter Athanasius (Maher el-Gowhary), who converted to Christianity 35 years ago.
In a story written by Mary Abdelmassih for AINA, several Fatwa’s were issued calling for the “spilling of his blood,” which makes their lives in constant danger in the face of the reactionaries and advocates for the enforcement of Islamic apostasy laws, which call for the death of a convert.
According to Abdelmassih, Dina said that three weeks ago, as she ventured out from their hiding place in Alexandria with her father to get some bottled water, her jacket was set on fire due to acid being thrown at her.
And this article is an example of violence against non-orthodox Islamic groups:
Gunmen attack mosques in Pakistan’s Lahore
LAHORE, Pakistan — Gunmen stormed two Pakistani mosques belonging to a minority Muslim sect in Lahore on Friday, seizing hostages among worshippers, setting off grenades and sparking a bloody shootout with police.
Gunfire and explosions rang out at the mosques — one in the upscale neighbourhood of Model Town, where a suicide car bomber struck in March, and the second in the heavily congested area of Garhi Shahu.
They are both mosques of the Ahmadis, also known as Qadiani, and have tens of thousands of members. Rights groups say the sect has long been persecuted in Pakistan and has remained an occasional target of sectarian attacks.
“Terrorists have attacked mosques. They are firing and using grenades. They have taken people inside the mosque hostage,” district civil defence official Muzhar Ahmed told AFP by telephone from the scene in Garhi Shahu.
And this story of a man burned to death and his wife raped in front of his children for his “crime” of refusing to convert to Islam:
Hundreds attend funeral of Christian burned for refusing to convert to Islam
RAWALPINDI, PAKISTAN (BosNewsLife)– Hundreds of people attended the funeral Wednesday, March 24, of a young Christian man who was allegedly burned by Muslim extremists and police officers for refusing to convert of Islam.
Arshed Masih, 38, was burned Friday, March 19, in front of a police station in Rawalpindi, Police Superintendent Moin Shah told BosNewsLife. His wife Martha Masih, 33, was raped by possibly three police officers in the police station, where the couple had been held for questioning, he added.
Their children, ranging in ages from 7 to 12, were allegedly forced to watch the attacks.
Shah said the police officers were suspended Tuesday, pending an investigation into their involvement in the burning and rape incidents.
Local Christians and human rights investigators have said the attacks were instigated by the couple’s employer, Muslim businessman Sheikh Mohammad Sultan, who lives in Rawalpindi.
Let us pray for discernment about how best to help heal this world of ours that is so filled with violence.
Richard
With the name of God, Peace be unto you.
This article here in PDF format is interesting to read
http://www.lamppostproductions.com/files/articles/PRESERVING%20THE%20FREEDOM%20FOR%20FAITH.pdf
<This gives an interesting look into the issue of apostacy how scholars differed with each other on it especially among the legal schools (the four that surived today) and how people are looking back at it in respect to the times we live in today.
I think the most problematic hadith text that we have to deal with is the hadith that is reported where The Prophet (saw) said 'whoever changes his religion kill him'. This has also come down in several chains stated in varying degrees.
What become apparent to anyone looking at this particular text is that it is an 'Am (general statement) that needs more elucidation. For example if a Christian becomes a Jew do we kill them? This could also mean if a Christian becomes a Muslim they too would be killed which would be quite absurd when one thinks about it.
This is why I think the PDF above helps to put things into perspective. I would also recommend the book 'Punishment in Islamic Law' by Mohamed El Awa it is very challenging to find these days but I think it's essential reading.
Again we do not find a command for apostacy in the Qur'an.
However, we do have this passage.
“When you begin living in the towns the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman among you might do evil in the sight of the Lord your God and violate the covenant. For instance, they might serve other gods or worship the sun, the moon, or any of the stars—the forces of heaven—which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then the man or woman who has committed such an evil act must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.” (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)
It is possible that people who believe in Federal Vision, Dominionism, or Christian Reconstructionism could do dangerous things with such a passage. For example a young Pentacostal girl after reading some Harry Potter books becomes interested in WICCA and starts lighting a few candles if the United States was a Christian theocracy would she than be required to be put to death?
Some may argue that this was in reference to Israel but they also forget that many Christians today see themselves as a 'spiritual Israel' or the 'true israel' and so forth.
I thought the comments here: http://unveilingchristianity.wordpress.com/2007/11/17/apostasy-and-killing-in-christianity/ though lacking in intellectual substance made me wonder about one particular comment apparently given by a Christian gentleman there…
"The second two passages also only applied to the Israelites at the time of the taking of Canaan. You must be aware of the command to them to eradicate all the pagans from Canaan. This was about keeping “The Promised Land” pure. It was not a command to kill disbelievers wherever on Earth they may be."
It makes one wonder if a Muslim were to say the same thing about Arabia what the response would be. Ahhh balderdash! Hogwash! Etc and than one begins to wonder about consistent standards and consistent apologetics.
As you pointed out in an e-mail to me if Muslims and Christians can reconcile apparent controversy and contradiction with in their own tradition could they not reach across the divide and do the same.
Hey there Jonathan,
Thanks for the link. I read the article by Abdullah bin Hamid Ali. It was very informative, but also very disturbing since he seems to be going against the main stream Muslim teaching that demands the execution of apostates. I was not aware that this was the accepted teaching. On page 8 he wrote:
I did not realize that Islamic scholars would be debating this point. Abdullah bin Hamid Ali was quite correct when he said noted “how outrageous such a mindset is from a religious standpoint.”
I see I have a lot to learn …
Thanks again for helping.
Richard
With the name of God, Peace be unto you Richard.
Well as you read the article you saw that in the Hanafi legal code which is actually the majority of Sunni Muslims as 60-65% of Sunni Muslim nations (Bosnia Herzegovina, Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Kazakhstan, Western China, Turkmenistan, Kyrigystan, Uzbekistan, a substantial portion of Egypt) Turkeminstan, Chechnya) follow the Hanafi school of interpretation.
What is interesting is that in the Hanafi legal school the Hadith cannot over ride the Qur’an. That is why those who have voiced up concerning death for apostacy have primarily come from that legal school. Where as the Sunni Shaf’i legal school followed in (Yemen, Somalia, Sudaan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, S Phillipines, S Thailand, Malabar region of India) the hadith can over ride the Qur’an or in that legal theory the hadith can even naskh (abrogate) the Qur’an. That is something that I am not too comfortable with myself.
As he mentioned in the Hanafi legal code the death penalty would only be for men and not women which further gives weight to the idea that what is discussed is abandoning one’s religion AND fighting against the state.
What is interesting is that only four of the many different legal schools survived. That is what has made the ahl sunnah wal jammah. However the gates of ijtihad (striving in the utmost to interpret the primary and secondary sources) are not closed. This is good news.
This is why you have people like Ustaz Abdullah asking people to take a look at what happened in context. His case is quite strong considering people who did leave Islam, even people who wrote on behalf of the Prophet Muhammed (saw) I mean here is a great occasion to make Islam and in particular the Prophet (saw) look very bad.
However, no action was taken. However, these matters do need to be brought to light and as disturbing as they are it’s important that we do not sugarcoat matters because we all need to be transparent and open with one another.
Allah-willing I will try and speak more on this as I owe another Christian gentleman a blog segment dedicated to this topic.
Have a blessed weekend and I won’t be back Allah willing until next week. Peace be unto you and your family.
“It is possible that people who believe in Federal Vision, Dominionism, or Christian Reconstructionism could do dangerous things with such a passage. For example a young Pentacostal girl after reading some Harry Potter books becomes interested in WICCA and starts lighting a few candles if the United States was a Christian theocracy would she than be required to be put to death?”
Hi Jonathon, The difference would be that even if these wackos believe wrongly that they are to live out the Old Covenant, they are still subject to the civil laws of this country which are meant to protect the individual from such wrong thinking.
Can you assure me there are such civil laws in most Muslim countries such as SA?
BTW: It is our duty as Christians to make it clear these Dominionist groups are wrong and do not represent true Christianity of our Savior. They cannot make their claim from the NT. It all boils down to wanting authority over others. That is sinful pride. And it is sinful pride whether it is a Muslim man wanting to own his wife or a fake Christian wanting control over his wife.
Amen to that! My wife has recently awoke to her freedom (something I totally encourage). She writes a bit about it her blog God and Butterfly in her post called Rose’s (long overdue) Rant.
I must say I agree with you 100% Lydia!
I think we can trace most of the laws of men having authority over women in Christianity and Islam to men wanting to dominate, and control women to make themselves feel superior. The sin of Pride has lead to the downfall of many a man!
With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.
Thank you for your response Lydia and thank you Richard for encouraging such exchange.
You stated, “Hi Jonathon, The difference would be that even if these wackos believe wrongly that they are to live out the Old Covenant, they are still subject to the civil laws of this country which are meant to protect the individual from such wrong thinking.”
You see when you say “believe wrongly” that is the catch-22 isn’t it? I mean for them they believe you are on the wrong side of the coin. Just like when I try and disuade people from thinking it’s o.k to support suicide bombers who go on a bus to kill women and children they will try and find some obscure passage, or some event in history to justify thier interpretation.
Some people are won over by force of argument or agree to disagree and I think that violence is necessary to repel violence. Who teaches us this? Why mother nature herself. Coming back from Kedah state in North Malaysia my wife and I stopped over to get some food and noticed two young hatchlings had fallen from a tree upon further investigation they were covered in red ants biting the hell out of them. I picked them all off the birds and set them away, and also laid down some food to distract the ants.
It was a ghastly sight not one that we are comfortable with but nonetheless God/Allah the Universe or whoever one wants to believe is responsible for it all feels that it is a necessary mechanism of our existence. Issues of interpretation do become prickly and challenging.
You asked,
“Can you assure me there are such civil laws in most Muslim countries such as SA?”
I cannot assure you, I think aslo in your example above you have to realize that once dominionism takes over the United States the civil laws would no longer be based upon secular principles so the argument I’m afraid doesn’t hold.
I cannot sure you about SA or most Muslim countries as I do not hold sway over thier own independent decision making or routes they choose to take.
I mean as a boy who grew up in S Indiana and lived most his life in the United States I still am amazed when I travel to Malaysia and other places that the world is really the way it it is. You would think it’s science fiction, or hollywood, but there are things that are just very alien, more beautiful and more sad than one could imagine.
As far as men and women being equal or even any two men being equal I think that when we choose words to communicate with we should have a shared understanding of what those words convey.
What does it mean to be equal? What do we mean when we say that? Sure it sounds reassuring and great. It sounds like a very high idea but what does it entail?
I would think for example that if I had a Mosque and had only two handicapped people who attended my mosque that it wouldn’t hurt to build a handicap accessible ramp for her/him to access the mosque. Though board members may complain that 5-6000 dollars could be better used else where. Is it fair and equal? Maybe not but is it just, I would think so.
Some times when a person thinks about logic and what is practical emotion cannot get involved, some times calculation is what is prudent.
These things again can get prickly. This is an imaginary scenario but you people have seen it all before in books, in movies and in real life. Your aboard your star ship (35 km in diamater)traversing the galaxy an alien horde invades your vessel you have absolutely no defense against them they push forth and they have breached a key area of the ship. Your ONLY option is to cut off a key section of the ship in which all the enemy is located, whilst you do so 5000 human lives are lost (men women and children).
By doing that you have guaranteed the survival of 50,000 human lives (men women and children). How do we calculate such things? We cannot possibly quantify human life can we?
A man is in a hospital bed he’s lived a ripe old age of 77 his heart, liver and kidney are in good order, but he has a brain tumor. These machines that keep him alive cost his family a fortune but they don’t have the courage to pull the plug besides state law doesnt’ allow it. In the same ward are a 7 year old girl, a 13 year old boy and 2 year old little girl they need respectively a liver, heart and kidney.
Do we waste money and put a burden upon a family and watch the old man barely live from day to day? Or do we get ‘gutsy’ and pull the plug and put those organs to good use and give hope to that 7, 13 and 2 year old child?
Now allot of this may seem off topic and off base, but please understand I am coming from a world view that starts with Allah (who is neither male or female) My creator is not a man is not a father. My creator doesn’t have a son. My creator is not so focused on what is equal but rather what is just.
I believe this creator speaks to us through revelation given to holy men chosen by this creator.
I do not come from a world view that assumes that religion is a construct of man and as such over time it is patriarchal in nature reflecting the percieved dominance of man from that time until the present age.
Hey there Jonathan,
Anybody who simply says that people are “equal” is not speaking clearly. Everyone is different, no two people are “equal.” The point is that people have equal rights in the eyes of the law. A rich white man does not get special treatment over a black man or a woman or a poor person. That’s the idea of “equality” in America.
As for moral conundrums in which a few die or suffer for the greater good – I don’t see how that applies to the problem of violence in Islam. It only confuses the issue. The problem with violence in Islam has to do with the unnecessary and unjust killing of others justified by religious tradition.
The Bible says something like that too … “God is not a man” (Num 23:19) … but then elsewhere it says things like “The Lord is a man of war” (Exo 15:3). So words must be understood in context, and generally they are not mathematical absolutes like numbers in equations that must be balanced to avoid contradictions. Scripture is much closer to poetry than anything.
To say that your Creator is “not a father” denies the meaning of the Semitic word “father” which means “source” or “originator.” Furthermore, both the Old and New Testaments declare that God is Father, and those declarations were there when Muhammad declared that the Torah and the Gospel were from Allah. I do not believe a Muslim can deny that Allah has revealed himself as “Father” if they agree that Allah revealed the Torah and the Gospel, since we know with certainty that the reference to God as Father was in the original documents.
All the very best,
Richard
The God I believe in would not have created men and women with equal capacities to learn and pursue knowledge only to decree that men are to dominate women, and strip from them their rights to pursue those desires.
Holy men who teach those concepts, are not speaking revelations from the God of Justice I know.
With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.
Richard you said, “Everyone is different, no two people are “equal.” The point is that people have equal rights in the eyes of the law.” Atleast this is getting some where. The Qur’an states that not even the souls are equal in what they can take. (Holy Qur’an 2:286)
Example: Someone might get the very sad news that a father or mother passed away, some people are thrown into rubbish bins at birth. Those people who have that happen to them have a hidden wisdom or mercy behind it. Others would not or never be able to take it. Allah meets things out according to his wisdom.
If you look at the concept of Zakat it is 2.5% in Islam this is what one may call a flat tax. So that the rich are not punished for being rich or wealthy but of course if they make 5 million a year their contribution in terms of wealth would be greater than a person with a 30000k salary.
Men and women are biological different and therefore we would have responsbilities, needs and places in society that reflect that reality. Muslims believe that men and women are entitled to the same rewards and punishments from their creator.
A man will never know what it is like having a child growing inside of his womb for 9 months that is something very unique and special from the creator. The two most common attributes or names of Allah in Islam is Ar Rahman and Ar Raheem which are feminine attributes.
But in Islam Allah has no gender. No Muslim if asked imagines Allah as a man father or not. I have often found it interesting that Christians who believe in the Trinity see this as a loving picture of the creator. Where we have an eternal son and an eternal father and the Holy Spirit is love, or the spark. However, I often proposed to these very same Christians to look very closely at the history and “personage” of the Holy Spirit.
Ruach, Wisdom, were many times feminine. Seems to me that if you want to have a family picture or give a less mysoginist view of the creator that Holy Spirit (feminine diviine) Father, (masculine divine) and son would be a great place to start.
Richard when you say, “when Muhammad declared that the Torah and the Gospel were from Allah” I still struggle with this honestly.
Of course our e-mail exchanges have stopped, and so have the greetings of peace between us but Al hamdulillah everything is from Allah. I have done my best to be fair and honest and not try to sugar coat things. As our Sheikh said “there is harshness in this deen” and I prefer the reality of things. Of course we cannot have a cookie cutter one size fit all religion, but I find part of truth is accepting things that maybe hard for me to fathom or even stomach. I think we as human beings have to remember that the ancient greeks divided humanity into three categories.
Helics (people of the matter or material) the Greeks thought they were damned.
Psychics( people of the psyche or mind) they can also be people of the mind, people who ponder and reflect they have risen above the animal aspect and atleast ask questions like why is the sky blue etc…
Lastly, Pneumatics (people of the spirit) they are people who attain salvation.
If I reflect Paul said something about eating milk and than eating food that has substance, there is a natural spiritual progression of the human being.
Now coming back to “when Muhammad declared that the Torah and the Gospel were from Allah”
I really struggle with this because after everything I have read I have seen any where that it would endorse the 22/27 books of the new testament or the 44/51 books of the old testament.
For example when it says if you are in doubt as to what we have revealed to you ask the people of the book, most people do not stop and notice the word “IF” becaues this is a conditional. It also doesn’t seem very helpful to me because what if The Prophet (saw) did indeed ask the Kararite Jews their opinion concerning hell fire or the afterlife? After all these Jews only accept the first five books of the Tanach as canon.
Or if The Prophet (saw) asked the Jews about the suffering servant what might they say? Or if he asked them is it true you have a trinitarian concept of God or if he asked them how come you people haven’t accepted Jesus as the messiah one wonders what answers he may have recieved.
Though it’s an interesting point for discussion I do think Christian polemic that the Qur’an endorses the entirity of the new and old testament (22/27 books and 44/51 books) is something I find very challenging.
However, I find it a very clever tactic and I salute those who first crated this argument. I personally like it though because it doesn’t allow Muslims to simply parrot Bart Ehrman or schools of higher criticism but to do their actual home work.
With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord,
Rose you said,
The God I believe in would not have created men and women with equal capacities to learn and pursue knowledge only to decree that men are to dominate women, and strip from them their rights to pursue those desires.
Holy men who teach those concepts, are not speaking revelations from the God of Justice I know.
I agree with this word ‘decree’ because that would seem very odd if we do presuppose that he did indeed create everyone with equal capacities etc. Have you ever wondered that even between men and women or in ‘all girl’s school’ or in an ‘all boy’s school’ why there are some students who excel in math, science, art, or music and others do not?
What are your views concerning this because I would be most interested.
By the way just so we are clear about things in the vast majority of Muslim countries Muslim women are not afforded to them the rights given to them in the Qur’an but I have to leave this subject as this forces me to dive into something that I feel you and Richard are not comfortable with the fact that Islam does have a spiritual and a temporal aspect to it.
After all it’s nice to be saved and going to heaven and all but chee we live on this earth on average 65 years or so. So what are we going to do in the mean time? Are we not to have a code or a system that guides us in how we interact with one another as human beings?
I would find it hard to believe that the God of Justice would reveal revolutionary concepts of freedom and liberty given to women in Islam only to encourage those very same women as well as men to sit idly by while those very rights are robbed them.
What are your thoughts on it?
As-Salaamu Alaykum Jonathan,
I very much like the way you write your greeting “Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.” Well said!
You wrote:
Yes, that is true, and it has led many thoughtful Christians to see the Holy Spirit as a “feminine” expression of God. Christians and Muslims agree that God is neither male nor female, but our Scriptures use the male pronoun “he” to refer to “him.” So a literal interpretation leads many to think of God as “masculine.”
You wrote:
I think it is good that we speak without to much “sugar.” It is important to sweeten the conversation so we both know that we meet here in peace and a mutual desire for understanding, but we also need to add a little salt. I very much appreciate your efforts “to be fair and honest and not try to sugar coat things.”
It is interesting that you mention the three classes of people that the Greeks (Gnostics, actually) divided the people into, since I was reading about them in depth for the first time just yesterday in a book that traces the first six hundred years of development of Christian doctrine. It is a very enlightening book:
I agree about the development from milk to meat, but I’m not sure why you brought that up.
You wrote:
Let us be perfectly clear. I never said that the Quran endorses the entire Bible. I was very careful with my words. The Quran repeatedly states that revelation was given to Moses and other Jewish prophets, and that Moses was given the Torah and that Jesus was given the Gospel.
I don’t know why you think this is a “clever” argument. This argument is not meant to be clever. It is meant to find our unity, if possible, and to bring us to understand truth. What does the Quran mean when it says that Allah gave Moses the Torah? What does it mean when it says that Jesus was Messiah and he preached a Gospel? These are very important questions. If we took them at “face value” it would sound like Muslims believe the same things as Christians. But when we look closer, we find that the Quran does not tell us what the “Gospel” is and Muslims deny that it is the Gospel that is written in the books called “Gospels” in the Bible. So this is something we need to discuss so we can understand. It is not meant to be a “clever argument.”
May the blessings of God be upon you!
Richard
As-Salammu Alaykum Jonathan.
You wrote:
I’m very aware that woman do not receive even the rights afforded them in the Quran in many Islamic countries, e.g. Saudi Arabia. Why do you think we’d be uncomfortable with that?
Now as for your bigger question – it seems to me that both the NT and the Quran increased the rights of woman relative to the time in which they lived, but both Islam (currently) and Christianity (mostly historically) greatly limited the rights of woman, and they gained equal rights with men only after much struggle and opposition by religious powers.
All the very best,
Richard
Greetings Jonathan,
You asked:
“Have you ever wondered that even between men and women or in ‘all girl’s school’ or in an ‘all boy’s school’ why there are some students who excel in math, science, art, or music and others do not?”
Not only have I wondered why some people have far superior intellects than others (men and women), but also why some are born with an advantage physically, while others are born handicapped. The best reason I can come up with is that we are born into a fallen world. My main point is not that people are mentally and physically unequal because of various reasons, but rather that God created both men and women with equal desires and equal capacities to pursue those desires.
It is men acting on their own accord (not by Gods decree) to gain authority and power, when they impose upon women restrictions to keep them in submission.
You said:
“After all it’s nice to be saved and going to heaven and all but chee we live on this earth on average 65 years or so. So what are we going to do in the mean time? Are we not to have a code or a system that guides us in how we interact with one another as human beings? “
I think what should guide us in how we treat others is very simply “the Golden Rule”. If we all treated each other the way we wish to be treated, most of our problems would be solved! As Jesus said: Love one another as I have loved you.
Rose