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Thread: God On Trial

  1. #1
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    God On Trial

    What kind of God is our Creator? What kind of God is the God of Moses? Many incidents in the Old Testament seem immoral or a-moral by our standards. Yet there must be a deeper truth that can explain them.

    God On Trial is a web project to assess the actions of God, the actions of God's people and the content of Bible laws in the light of modern legal and moral standards.

    God On Trial listens first to the prosecution. What is their case against God?

    This is an ongoing project, and it is hoped that through it some incredible things will come to light. Who knows.

    I have posted the first part here -

    http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/god_on_trial.htm
    Last edited by Craig.Paardekooper; 05-04-2009 at 10:34 PM.

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    Hey Craig, the page above is offline...

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    The page is online now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    The page is online now
    Thanks Craig, I'll go take a look and report back...

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    What kind of God is our Creator? What kind of God is the God of Moses? Many incidents in the Old Testament seem immoral or a-moral by our standards. Yet there must be a deeper truth that can explain them.

    God On Trial is a web project to assess the actions of God, the actions of God's people and the content of Bible laws in the light of modern legal and moral standards.

    God On Trial listens first to the prosecution. What is their case against God?

    This is an ongoing project, and it is hoped that through it some incredible things will come to light. Who knows.

    I have posted the first part here -

    http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/god_on_trial.htm
    I know something about it. One should not take the Text and put it 'one to one' on the physical world. The physical world is strongly connected with it though, but the Text is as the seed-giving male who comes first and the woman (the mater, matter, material world) follows him, surrounds him. An example:

    Let's (not) stone someone
    The word 'stone' in Hebrew is 'bn tha'ts eben, that's a-b-n, that's 1-2-50.
    This is the aggregating, interconnection of Father and Son, that's AB and BeN.
    It can be a real experience of severe punishment to someone (in their individual spiritual world!) to get him/her connected to The Father and The Son by preaching for example or giving them knowledge while the knowledge is just a normal explanation of a word of the Text. This is the spiritual meaning of 'stoning someone'. It's easy to explain, and we see here that the bad has a counter site, or the good has a countersite, it's just where you look at first.
    Look with a material view at the Text, and be opposed, or say "We are now living in a civilised world and the ones who practise this are barbarians. This Text is from an old time, that's why this it is written this way and at that time they stoned people."
    Look at a preacher who preaches The Word of the N.T. about The Father and The Son and that is a good Christian thing to do!

    This is another example, I do it by head:
    You must not cook the flesh in the milk of the mother animal or something like this is written in the O.T.
    We can think of this as a cooking recepy in the physical world, and in the physical world it is hard to find the mother animal and cook in the milk of her.
    Milk however has the value of 40 in Hebrew (chelev, 8-30-2) and 40 represents 'time' *. The sentence has details that I don't remember anymore but I know the meaning that the text does not apply to everyday cooking like we do in the physical world, or how they used to cook in earlier days, that it's not a cooking recepy, but that it means that one must not make something ready by putting it in time, in a spiritual sense.


    * flowing time.
    A tree is the representation of growing time. The word for tree and time have the same pronounciation: etz.
    Last edited by NumberX; 03-05-2011 at 06:17 AM.

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    I think that the author of these videos is seeing things out of context.

    The centre of the Law of Moses is the Shema and the Commandment to Love others as we would be loved.

    The Great Commandment in Judaism is the name commonly given to a part of Leviticus 19:18 in the Torah:[1]

    "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart ….. Do not revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD' Leviticus 19 v 18

    The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God' Leviticus 19 v 34
    It is seemingly the oldest written version in a positive form. The Great Commandment as well as the proverbial Golden Rule calls for others the equal manner and respect we want for ourselves.

    The Sage Hillel, an elder contemporary of Jesus of Nazareth, formulated a negative form of the Golden Rule, referring to the Great Commandment. When asked to sum up the entire Torah concisely, to a gentile, he answered:[3]

    'That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.'
    — Talmud, Shabbat 31a, the "Great Principle"
    In the Christian New Testament the Great Commandment was referenced by Jesus in Mark 12:28-34, Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 7:12, 19:19, 22:34-40 and by Paul of Tarsus in Romans 13:9 and Galatians 5:14:

    'For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.' '
    — Galatians 5:14 NRSV
    Brotherly love is the love for one's fellow-man as a brother. The expression is taken from the Greek word Φιλαδελφία (Philadelphia = "love of brothers"), which trait distinguished the Early Christian communities. Rom. 12:10; 1 Thess. 4:9; John 13:35; 1 John 2:9, 3:12, 4:7,5:1; and 1 Peter 3:8, 5:9 express the idea of Christian fellowship and fraternity.

    It was also important in the Essene brotherhoods, who practised brotherly love as a special virtue.[4]

    Brotherly love is commanded as a universal principle in Lev 19:18: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself," the preceding verse containing the words: "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart." This commandment of love, with the preceding sentence, "Thou shalt not avenge nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people," may originally have referred, and has by some scholars [5] been exclusively referred, to the Israelitish neighbor; but in verse 34 of the same chapter it is extended to "the stranger that dwelleth with you . . . and thou shalt love him as thyself."

    In Job 31:13-15 it is declared unjust to wrong the servant in his cause: "Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?"

    Hillel also took the Biblical command in this universal spirit when he responded to the heathen who requested him to tell the Law while standing before him on one foot: "What is hateful to you, do not do to your friend. This is all of the Torah; the rest is the explanation -- go and learn".[8] The negative form was the accepted Targum interpretation of Lev. xix. 18, known alike to the author of Tobit iv. 15 and to Philo, in the fragment preserved by Eusebius, Preparatio Evangelica, viii. 7;[9] to the Didache, i. 1; Didascalia or Apostolic Constitutions, i. 1, iii. 15; Clementine Homilies, ii. 6; and other ancient patristic writings.[10] That this so-called golden rule, given also in James ii. 8, was recognized by the Jews in the time of Jesus, may be learned from Mark xii. 28-34; Luke x. 25-28; Matt. vii. 12, xix. 19, xxii. 34-40; Rom. xiii. 9; and Gal. v. 14, where the Pharisaic scribe asks Jesus in the same words that were used by Akiba, "What is the great commandment of the Law?" and the answer given by Jesus declares the first and great commandment to be the love of God, and the second the love of "thy neighbor as thyself." To include all men, Hillel used the term "beriot"[11] when inculcating the teaching of love: "Love the fellow-creatures".[12] Hatred of fellow-creatures ("sinat ha-beriyot") is similarly declared by R. Joshua b. Hananiah to be one of the three things that drive man out of the world.[13]

    The Parable of the Good Samaritan is a story Jesus told to illustrate who a person's neighbor was.[17] The story involves a stranger befriending and aiding a beaten man who was supposed to be the Samaritan's social enemy, and who had been overlooked by other passersby. After telling the parable, Jesus instructed the one who asked him to define "neighbor" to "go and do likewise". The parable provides a model for the kind of relational care the Great Commandment encourages.

    That Love really is the centre of Mosaic Law is suggested by the gematria for The Shema which is -

    1118 = 13 x 13 + 13 x 73

    13 is found to be the inner most hexagram within the hexagram of 37 and that of 73. And 13 is the gematria for Love

    In fact the whole world may have been created out of Love since Vernon has shown that Genesis 1 = 37 x 73, and this rests upon a base of 39 x 93 (John 1) = 3 x 13 x 31 x 3

    What is more, the names of the 12 Tribes come to 13 x 37 + 37 x 73

    Also, animal sacrifice was a way that people could be forgiven by God allowing an animal to die in their place.



    The command that God gave to destroy the inhabitants of Canaan was possibly a unique situation since many of the inhabitants of Canaan were giant descendants of the Nephilim, and God wanted to annihilate them, just as He had tried to wipe them of the earth previously with the Flood. I think this is the deeper reason why God did not want to spare anyone, or take any prisoners.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    I think that the author of these videos is seeing things out of context.

    The centre of the Law of Moses is the Shema and the Commandment to Love others as we would be loved.

    The Great Commandment in Judaism is the name commonly given to a part of Leviticus 19:18 in the Torah:[1]



    It is seemingly the oldest written version in a positive form. The Great Commandment as well as the proverbial Golden Rule calls for others the equal manner and respect we want for ourselves.

    The Sage Hillel, an elder contemporary of Jesus of Nazareth, formulated a negative form of the Golden Rule, referring to the Great Commandment. When asked to sum up the entire Torah concisely, to a gentile, he answered:[3]



    In the Christian New Testament the Great Commandment was referenced by Jesus in Mark 12:28-34, Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 7:12, 19:19, 22:34-40 and by Paul of Tarsus in Romans 13:9 and Galatians 5:14:



    Brotherly love is the love for one's fellow-man as a brother. The expression is taken from the Greek word Φιλαδελφία (Philadelphia = "love of brothers"), which trait distinguished the Early Christian communities. Rom. 12:10; 1 Thess. 4:9; John 13:35; 1 John 2:9, 3:12, 4:7,5:1; and 1 Peter 3:8, 5:9 express the idea of Christian fellowship and fraternity.

    It was also important in the Essene brotherhoods, who practised brotherly love as a special virtue.[4]

    Brotherly love is commanded as a universal principle in Lev 19:18: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself," the preceding verse containing the words: "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart." This commandment of love, with the preceding sentence, "Thou shalt not avenge nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people," may originally have referred, and has by some scholars [5] been exclusively referred, to the Israelitish neighbor; but in verse 34 of the same chapter it is extended to "the stranger that dwelleth with you . . . and thou shalt love him as thyself."

    In Job 31:13-15 it is declared unjust to wrong the servant in his cause: "Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?"

    Hillel also took the Biblical command in this universal spirit when he responded to the heathen who requested him to tell the Law while standing before him on one foot: "What is hateful to you, do not do to your friend. This is all of the Torah; the rest is the explanation -- go and learn".[8] The negative form was the accepted Targum interpretation of Lev. xix. 18, known alike to the author of Tobit iv. 15 and to Philo, in the fragment preserved by Eusebius, Preparatio Evangelica, viii. 7;[9] to the Didache, i. 1; Didascalia or Apostolic Constitutions, i. 1, iii. 15; Clementine Homilies, ii. 6; and other ancient patristic writings.[10] That this so-called golden rule, given also in James ii. 8, was recognized by the Jews in the time of Jesus, may be learned from Mark xii. 28-34; Luke x. 25-28; Matt. vii. 12, xix. 19, xxii. 34-40; Rom. xiii. 9; and Gal. v. 14, where the Pharisaic scribe asks Jesus in the same words that were used by Akiba, "What is the great commandment of the Law?" and the answer given by Jesus declares the first and great commandment to be the love of God, and the second the love of "thy neighbor as thyself." To include all men, Hillel used the term "beriot"[11] when inculcating the teaching of love: "Love the fellow-creatures".[12] Hatred of fellow-creatures ("sinat ha-beriyot") is similarly declared by R. Joshua b. Hananiah to be one of the three things that drive man out of the world.[13]

    The Parable of the Good Samaritan is a story Jesus told to illustrate who a person's neighbor was.[17] The story involves a stranger befriending and aiding a beaten man who was supposed to be the Samaritan's social enemy, and who had been overlooked by other passersby. After telling the parable, Jesus instructed the one who asked him to define "neighbor" to "go and do likewise". The parable provides a model for the kind of relational care the Great Commandment encourages.
    Hi Craig,

    The center of the law of Moses might be the Shema, and with the coming of Jesus the giving of the greatest commandment to love one another, but I do not think that the author of the book Bible Stories your Parents never told you was taking those verses he spoke of out of context. It seems that just the opposite is true....it is the Christian who pretends those verses don't exist, or tries to justify them. I applaud those who are willing to voice those things they see in the Bible as being morally wrong instead of trying to somehow justify them because God is involved.

    The fact that God allowed those verses where he is commanding women and children to be slaughtered, amongst other things, to become part of the Bible is a very negative reflection on the whole of Scripture. In my opinion the only way it can be resolved is by viewing the Bible as a collection of philosophies and myths...not the "word of God".


    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    Also, animal sacrifice was a way that people could be forgiven by God allowing an animal to die in their place.



    The command that God gave to destroy the inhabitants of Canaan was possibly a unique situation since many of the inhabitants of Canaan were giant descendants of the Nephilim, and God wanted to annihilate them, just as He had tried to wipe them of the earth previously with the Flood. I think this is the deeper reason why God did not want to spare anyone, or take any prisoners.
    Once again it seems like you are trying to justify the murder of innocent people by saying it was a unique situation possibly concerning giants, but then what about all the other circumstances where the people who were slaughter by the command of God were human women and children?

    As I have said before, I think we all need to take off our blinders and see what is written in the Bible and deal with it instead of trying to justify it, otherwise no progress will be made.

    Blessings,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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    Hi Rose,

    I applaud the scientific method, and think that it is important to be 100% honest with ourselves about the facts.

    In which case, what we will have to do is look at each case of supposed "crime" individually, and see what the verdict is. There are possibly hundreds of cases in the Bible that are controversial.

    I suspect though that an important reason for the annihilation of the Canaanites was their link to the Nephilim. Though I see your point that there may be many other cases in the Bible where there is no such connection.

    Craig

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    Craig you just copie/pasted your text from internet?
    Google

    I explained a controversial text, this is the way to study the text, but that does require quite some knowledge about the used words. Fortunately I read works of a professor who can explains it this way.

    When I read other explanations then I think well, just let them talk to eachother about it, without taking notice of original hebrew words, that would be to difficult for them anyway and they don't want that, otherwise they would already have done that or reply to it. But that's why I post it, so someone else can see how it is, to look in the direction of the words themselves and not stick to the material view of someone else. We are also able to think for ourselves.

    Do I look at the material-viewers as dombo's?
    In a sense no, because it takes quite some knowledge about hebrew words to change a material view, and in a sense certainly yes, to those who don't want to get the knowledge to get rid of their material view, their material view became the thing where they want to stick to, and nothing else. That's also what the Text means with "they became as women", that means they became the material-viewers. Hollywood picked it up and made a film of a planet where only women live
    Last edited by NumberX; 03-05-2011 at 11:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NumberX View Post
    Craig you just copie/pasted your text from internet?
    Google
    To All: It is really important to site the source when quoting the words of another person. And if you found them on the internet, you should provide a link.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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