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  1. #21
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    Hebrew words

    Hi Richard!

    The lack of Hebrew fonts makes life a bit more difficult, but here's some clarification on some of the roots. The word chalam means 'to dream'. It is the root for the stone achlamah, meaning 'dream stone', which I believe to be the aquamarine. You'd spell it cheth - lamed - mem. The Hebrew chalam is much more likely to be the root of 'calm' than Klein's etymology. But as you say, he hung with the academic herd. The chalam concepts integrate easier with the English.

    He - mem - he is hamah, meaning 'to hum'. The hum of a harp being played, that kind of thing. And yes, I was aware of the root hamas and its current equivalence to Hamas in Palestine; and the gl cluster and its variants that produce many words. But the hayil one was new to me. Very 20th century Germanic! But then, German has a lot in common with Hebrew and English. I also like your take on tehum. That word always strikes me as having the qualities of deep resonance.

    Yes, the englah association with the English is controversial, but ... it's not an isolated case! That's where it starts to shake the apples from the tree. There are further basic appellations in the British Isles that similarly have Hebraic roots. The name Brit for the British is also straight out Hebrew. It is the word beth - resh - yod - tav, transliterating as B-R-I-T, and means 'covenant'. And how about the name Scot for the Scots? The word Scot means 'wanderer', and is the same as the Hebrew samekh - kaph - vav - tav, which transliterates as S-C-O-T, and in our Bibles appears as Succoth, or booths. It will be recalled that succoth, both as booths and the Festival of Booths, commemorated Israel's time as wanderers. Moreover, if you go to the biblical account at Judges 8:14-16, you'll see that the elders of the town of Succoth were upbraided by Gideon with thistles. This is the emblem of the Scots to this very day. It seems they learnt their lesson! Interestingly, Scotland is the only country in the world that has a town by the name of Succoth. It's in the old part of the country, too, in the west, where the Irish Scots made their initial incursions into Scotland.

    Now that should be food for thought!

    Stephen
    Last edited by Stephen; 08-14-2007 at 07:23 PM.
    "And the watchman told, saying, 'The driving is like the driving of Jehu the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously'

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Hi Richard!

    The lack of Hebrew fonts makes life a bit more difficult, but here's some clarification on some of the roots. The word chalam means 'to dream'. It is the root for the stone achlamah, meaning 'dream stone', which I believe to be the aquamarine. You'd spell it cheth - lamed - mem. The Hebrew chalam is much more likely to be the root of 'calm' than Klein's etymology. But as you say, he hung with the academic herd. The chalam concepts integrate easier with the English.
    I was guessing you meant chalam (to dream) but I didn't see any obvious connection with "calm" ... and I still don't. What is the connection between "dream" and "calm?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    He - mem - he is hamah, meaning 'to hum'. The hum of a harp being played, that kind of thing.
    I do think there is a connection, but it needs to be remembered that the "hum" is not so much like a harp really. The word "hamah" is used only once in relation to a "harp" and the way it is used is not in the way we would speak of the "hum" of a "harp":

    Isaiah 16:11 Wherefore my bowels shall sound (hamah) like an harp for Moab, and mine inward parts for Kirharesh.

    The actual root has a very violent sense, and is associated with the roar of a restless sea, or mob of people:
    המה hamah {haw-maw'} a primitive root [compare 01949]; TWOT - 505; v AV - roar 8, noise 6, disquieted 4, sound 3, troubled 2, aloud 1, loud 1, clamorous 1, concourse 1, mourning 1, moved 1, raged 1, raging 1, tumult 1, tumultuous 1, uproar 1; 34 1) to murmur, growl, roar, cry aloud, mourn, rage, sound, make noise, tumult, be clamorous, be disquieted, be loud, be moved, be troubled, be in an uproar 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to growl 1a2) to murmur (fig. of a soul in prayer) 1a3) to roar 1a4) to be in a stir, be in a commotion 1a5) to be boisterous, be turbulent
    But I do think this relates to the English "hum" since both are onomatopoetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    And yes, I was aware of the root hamas and its current equivalence to Hamas in Palestine; and the gl cluster and its variants that produce many words. But the hayil one was new to me. Very 20th century Germanic! But then, German has a lot in common with Hebrew and English. I also like your take on tehum. That word always strikes me as having the qualities of deep resonance.
    Looks like we are tracking pretty well here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Yes, the englah association with the English is controversial, but ... it's not an isolated case! That's where it starts to shake the apples from the tree. There are further basic appellations in the British Isles that similarly have Hebraic roots. The name Brit for the British is also straight out Hebrew. It is the word beth - resh - yod - tav, transliterating as B-R-I-T, and means 'covenant'. ]
    I've noticed the phonetic similarity, of course, but do you have any basis for a semanitc similarity? Is the idea of "covenant" strongly characteristic of the Brits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    And how about the name Scot for the Scots? The word Scot means 'wanderer', and is the same as the Hebrew samekh - kaph - vav - tav, which transliterates as S-C-O-T, and in our Bibles appears as Succoth, or booths. It will be recalled that succoth, both as booths and the Festival of Booths, commemorated Israel's time as wanderers.
    It is interesting that the word "Succoth" is introduced in Gen 33:17 with the words "And Jacob journeyed to Succoth." But I definitely will need more evidence than that. Where did you get the definition of Scots as "wanderer?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Moreover, if you go to the biblical account at Judges 8:14-16, you'll see that the elders of the town of Succoth were upbraided by Gideon with thistles. This is the emblem of the Scots to this very day. It seems they learnt their lesson! Interestingly, Scotland is the only country in the world that has a town by the name of Succoth. It's in the old part of the country, too, in the west, where the Irish Scots made their initial incursions into Scotland.

    Now that should be food for thought!

    Stephen
    Well now, that last association really is rather intriguing. I checked, and yes indeed, there is a Succoth, Scotland.


    Richard
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  3. #23
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    Clarifications

    Hi Richard!

    You certainly do have a good command of etymological roots. By that I mean you are able to go beyond the lexicons etc, and really think about the roots.

    You are correct with your correction of hamah, and also with your conclusion that it relates onomatopoetically to hum. Also, I don't support the idea that Ephesus has a Hebrew root, but it's interesting nonetheless for comparison's sake.

    Concerning the root brit as it relates to the Brits, this word is much more inclusive than the appellation English, which latter only includes those from England. Brits were first the Welsh and the English, but when James VI of the Scots acceded to the throne to become James I of Great Britain - the same king who commissioned the King James Bible - the appellation Brits extended to include Scots. Today a Brit will be more than peeved if you call him an Englishman and he's not English! Always use the word Brit. It's definitely a sign of their covenant!
    Concerning covenant, the Union Jack is very much a covenant of union between the different nations that form the United Kingdom. That includes those from Northern Ireland. And you really want to check out that Northern Ireland flag, with the red hand and the star of David. Ancient memories of Genesis 38 surviving through legend and symbol????? They even got the colours right, red and white!

    I read somewhere way back that the Welsh to this day bake a special type of bread which is called the Bread of the Covenant. I will have to find a source for that information. My mum has a Welsh friend, I might email her to get some more info. What is certain is that they sing the hymn 'Bread of Heaven' almost as a second national anthem.
    Speaking more of the Welsh, many linguists have noted the strong similarities between their language and ancient Hebrew. They call themselves beath cymru, the House of Cymru (pronounced 'khumree'). They are a nation of singers, and truly are the hymnists of the world. One set of words always strikes me when they sing their beautiful national anthem, which in English translates as 'Land of My Fathers'. That set of words is Gwlad, Gwlad. I always think of the biblical Gilead when they cry those words, as the words are pronounced the same.

    Concerning the appellation Scots meaning 'wanderers', this can partly be traced to lines in Latin carved into a chunk of wood that was once attached to the coronation stone, which Edward I carried off to Westminster Abbey in 1296:
    Ni fallet fatum Scoti hunc quocunque locatum
    Invenient lapidem regnare tenentur ibidem.
    These lines have been famously translated by Walter Scott as:
    Unless the fates be faithless grown, or prophet's voice be vain
    Where'er is found this sacred stone, the wanderer's race shall reign.
    The terms Scot and wanderer were seen to be interchangeable. Indeed, the Scots, in the Declaration of Arbroath of 1320, count their origins from the going out of the children of Israel!

    Anyway, this thread is not really intended for history lessons, so I'll let it get

    Stephen
    "And the watchman told, saying, 'The driving is like the driving of Jehu the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously'

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Concerning the root brit as it relates to the Brits, this word is much more inclusive than the appellation English, which latter only includes those from England. Brits were first the Welsh and the English, but when James VI of the Scots acceded to the throne to become James I of Great Britain - the same king who commissioned the King James Bible - the appellation Brits extended to include Scots. Today a Brit will be more than peeved if you call him an Englishman and he's not English! Always use the word Brit. It's definitely a sign of their covenant!
    Concerning covenant, the Union Jack is very much a covenant of union between the different nations that form the United Kingdom. That includes those from Northern Ireland. And you really want to check out that Northern Ireland flag, with the red hand and the star of David. Ancient memories of Genesis 38 surviving through legend and symbol????? They even got the colours right, red and white!
    Yes, the Brits are a "covenant" people, but that "covenant" came many years after the name "Britannia" originated sometime between 300 and 55 BC. Do you think this might be a problem with your theory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    I read somewhere way back that the Welsh to this day bake a special type of bread which is called the Bread of the Covenant. I will have to find a source for that information. My mum has a Welsh friend, I might email her to get some more info.
    Yes, it would be good to find more info, but the problem is that most people groups are formed on the basis of some kind of "covenant" - so finding the same thing with the Brits doesn't seem significant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    What is certain is that they sing the hymn 'Bread of Heaven' almost as a second national anthem.
    That's to be expected amongst Christian folk. I kinda get the impression you overlook the fact that the Hebrew influence came via the OT of the Christian Bible. Do you have anything in your methodology to distinguish between Herbraic images and motifs derived from Gentiles who converted to Christianity as opposed to direct descent via the lost tribes of Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Speaking more of the Welsh, many linguists have noted the strong similarities between their language and ancient Hebrew. They call themselves beath cymru, the House of Cymru (pronounced 'khumree'). They are a nation of singers, and truly are the hymnists of the world. One set of words always strikes me when they sing their beautiful national anthem, which in English translates as 'Land of My Fathers'. That set of words is Gwlad, Gwlad. I always think of the biblical Gilead when they cry those words, as the words are pronounced the same.
    Those are some very interesting links. Are you saying the the Welsh word for house is Beath? What other cognates are there? How broad is the scholastic acceptance of the Hebrew roots of Welsh?

    I've also read that some Native American languages are very similar to Hebrew, but I have not confirmed it yet.

    BTW - have you noticed that the male/female suffixes -O and -A in the Romance languages mimic the Hebrew male/female possessive suffixes?

    beyto = his house, beytah = her house.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Concerning the appellation Scots meaning 'wanderers', this can partly be traced to lines in Latin carved into a chunk of wood that was once attached to the coronation stone, which Edward I carried off to Westminster Abbey in 1296:
    Ni fallet fatum Scoti hunc quocunque locatum
    Invenient lapidem regnare tenentur ibidem.
    These lines have been famously translated by Walter Scott as:
    Unless the fates be faithless grown, or prophet's voice be vain
    Where'er is found this sacred stone, the wanderer's race shall reign.
    The terms Scot and wanderer were seen to be interchangeable. Indeed, the Scots, in the Declaration of Arbroath of 1320, count their origins from the going out of the children of Israel!

    Anyway, this thread is not really intended for history lessons, so I'll let it get

    Stephen
    I think we need to make a thread to discuss this in ... it looks very interesting. Or since it involves so many Hebrew cognates, we could just continue here.

    I checked out the Declaration of Arbroath, and you are correct, they mentioned the Exodus but there is no suggestion that they identified themselves as Israelis.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  5. #25
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    roots

    Hey there, dude!

    Y' know yer askin' me t' write a book wiv all these pesky questions o' yers, dontcha boy?! If only I had enough hours in the day and brain cells left in my skull to do justice to this subject.

    No sweat tho, bro. All these questions you ask I've asked myself many times. Every objection you've made is entirely valid, and most of 'em don't have a direct answer. Sorry 'bout that, but that's just the way it is with history antecedent to the printing press. Even in this postmodern (or post-postmodern to some theoretical gurus) era we are seeing histories rapidly repackaged and inflected, often within a day of an event's occurrence. What chance of our times ever being accurately retold in the ages to come? Today we have way too much data to dig through, whereas in the ancient world there's way too little data to dig through.

    This is not a cop out, though. Sifting through academic opinion re history is not something I am qualified to do. However, when it comes to biblical history, there are many more clues than just names and events. The Bible uses symbols for peoples, tribes and nations. We do the same thing today, with our heraldic devices, our coats-of-arms and our flags. These symbols meant a lot more than written script to ancient peoples, because it is almost certain that very few people were actually literate. Sleuthing through these symbols to uncover meaning is always going to produce contestable findings. That's unavoidable. But it's necessary.

    Believe me, all your objections are noted. For me, the weight of evidence rather than its quality sways me. There's just too much that fits to dismiss everything as coincidence. I mean, this very thread itself is but one thread in the total weight of evidence. And, of course, the linguistic community would outright dismiss the content of this thread as mere coincidence. It is just not in fashion to think that English could possibly have many Hebraic roots.

    At the end of the day I think this entire subject, Hebrew roots in modern English - and the subsequent conclusions I have reached, which you quite fairly contest - is one that you just have to decide for yourself. For me, in spite of the circumstantial nature of most of the evidence, there's just too much of it for it to be coincidence - and I'm talking much more than just linguistic theory here. And the real acid test is that it doesn't have to be force-fitted into Scripture. It actually helps to explain Scripture. That's the wood, though I most certainly can't qualify all of the trees.

    Stephen
    Last edited by Stephen; 08-15-2007 at 09:24 PM.
    "And the watchman told, saying, 'The driving is like the driving of Jehu the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously'

  6. #26
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    Here is one that I have known for many years, but was just reminded about it as I was reading an article on Code Breaker's site where he mentioned that the English word "evil" is from the Hebrew "evel" (Strong's #5766)

    עול `evel {eh'-vel} or עול `avel {aw'-vel} and (fem.) עולה `avlah {av-law'} or `owlah {o-law'} or `olah {o-law'} from 05765; TWOT - 1580a,1580b; n m/f
    AV - iniquity 36, wickedness 7, unrighteousness 3, unjust 2, perverseness 1, unjustly 1, unrighteously 1, wicked 1, wickedly 1, variant 2; 55 1) injustice, unrighteousness, wrong 1a) violent deeds of injustice 1b) injustice (of speech) 1c) injustice (generally)
    I checked with Klein's Etymological Dictionary of English, and he listed a dozen cognates in all the Indo-European languages, and ultimately traced it to the idea of "going up" or "going over" in the sense of "transgression." This is very interesting, because that is the fundamental meaning of the Hebrew root Ayin Lamed which spells "evel" when a Vav is inserted:
    עלה `alah {aw-law'} a primitive root; TWOT - 1624; v AV - (come, etc...) up 676, offer 67, come 22, bring 18, ascend 15, go 12, chew 9, offering 8, light 6, increase 4, burn 3, depart 3, put 3, spring 2, raised 2, arose 2, break 2, exalted 2, misc 33; 889 1) to go up, ascend, climb 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to go up, ascend 1a2) to meet, visit, follow, depart, withdraw, retreat 1a3) to go up, come up (of animals) 1a4) to spring up, grow, shoot forth (of vegetation) 1a5) to go up, go up over, rise (of natural phenomenon) 1a6) to come up (before God) 1a7) to go up, go up over, extend (of boundary) 1a8) to excel, be superior to 1b) (Niphal) 1b1) to be taken up, be brought up, be taken away 1b2) to take oneself away 1b3) to be exalted 1c) (Hiphil) 1c1) to bring up, cause to ascend or climb, cause to go up 1c2) to bring up, bring against, take away 1c3) to bring up, draw up, train 1c4) to cause to ascend 1c5) to rouse, stir up (mentally) 1c6) to offer, bring up (of gifts) 1c7) to exalt 1c8) to cause to ascend, offer 1d) (Hophal) 1d1) to be carried away, be led up 1d2) to be taken up into, be inserted in 1d3) to be offered 1e) (Hithpael) to lift oneself
    This is the word that describes Satan's primary evil desire to ascend to the throne of God:

    KJV Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above (e'eleh al) the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
    Code Breaker has made a lot of connections along these lines.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  7. #27
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    I was just reading a refutation of John Piper's use of the phrase "Christian Hedonism" and was reminded of this cognate I noticed many years ago:

    עדן `Eden {ay'-den} the same as 05730; TWOT - 1568; AV - Eden 17; 17
    Eden= "pleasure" n pr m loc 1) the first habitat of man after the creation; site unknown n pr m 2) a Gershonite Levite, son of Joah in the days of king Hezekiah of Judah
    The root is Stong's #5730:
    עדן `eden {ay'-den} or (fem.) עדנה `ednah {ed-naw'} from 05727; TWOT - 1567a; n m/f AV - pleasure 2, delights 1, delicates 1; 4 1) luxury, dainty, delight, finery 2) delight
    And this, of course, links directly to the English word hedonism:

    Main Entry: he·do·nism
    Pronunciation: 'hE-d&-"ni-z&m
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Greek hEdonE pleasure; akin to Greek hEdys sweet -- more at SWEET
    1 : the doctrine that pleasure or happiness is the sole or chief good in life
    2 : a way of life based on or suggesting the principles of hedonism
    - he·do·nist /-nist/ noun
    - he·do·nis·tic /"hE-d&-'nis-tik/ adjective
    - he·do·nis·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb
    The Greek word mentioned in the etymology is the Greek hedone' = Strong's# 2237:

    ηδονη hedone {hay-don-ay'} from handano (to please); TDNT - 2:909,303; n f AV - pleasure 3, lust 2; 5 1) pleasure 2) desires for pleasure
    This word appears in five verses of the NT, such as:


    Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures (hedone) of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  8. #28
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    Hass

    I was reading Zephaniah 1:7 and was reminded of this example of another near universal root:

    הסה hasah {haw-saw'} a primitive root; TWOT - 511 AV - keep silence 3, hold your peace 2, hold your tongue 1 still 1, silence 1; 8 interj 1) (Piel) hush, keep silence, be silent, hold peace, hold tongue, still v 2) (CLBL) to hush 2a) (Hiphil) to command to be silent
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  9. #29
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    New cognate ...

    I was just researching "global warming" and encountered a new term called the "cryosphere" which refers to the portion of the globe where water is frozen. I had not encountered this term before, and so clicked on the wikipedia article, and found this:
    The cryosphere, derived from the Greek word kryo for "cold" or "too cold", is the term which collectively describes the portions of the Earth’s surface where water is in solid form, including sea ice, lake ice, river ice, snow cover, glaciers, ice caps and ice sheets, and frozen ground (which includes permafrost). The cryosphere is an integral part of the global climate system with important linkages and feedbacks generated through its influence on surface energy and moisture fluxes, clouds, precipitation, hydrology, and atmospheric and oceanic circulation. Through these feedback processes, the cryosphere plays a significant role in global climate and in climate model response to global change.
    Well that triggered my memory of the fundamental Hebrew root meaning "cold" ...
    קר qar {kar} contracted from an unused root meaning to chill; TWOT - 2077a; adj AV - cold 2, variant 1; 3 1) cool 1a) cool, calm, self-possessed (of spirit)
    So this looks like a good candidate for another Hebrew cognate.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  10. #30
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    I received a message from Isaac Mozeson, the author of the very useful and informative book called "The Word" in which he traced out many of the Hebrew roots of common English words. Here is the message:

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Mozeson

    Dear Bible Wheelers:

    The thread is from June 07, but I'd like to congratulate all for so much good posting on Hebrew as Proto-Earth. My 1989 book, The Word is now twice as large -- but in CD form. I'd like to at least let you know about the website www.edenics.org

    Or, if this thread comes around agaion, wheel-like, I'd like to be able to participate.

    We are moving from Genesis 11;1 to Tsephania 3:9.
    Blessings, Isaac Mozeson
    I too hope that Mr. Mozeson will come and participate in this thread.

    We also could expand our conversation to include things we learn from his site www.edenics.org.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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