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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    [B]
    10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a]

    11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
    Hi Cheow,
    There might be one small problem with a literal interp of these verses. It's the timeline. If Rev is interpreted literally the way most futurists do,
    Rev 19: Christ comes to earth
    Rev 20: He reigns on this earth for 1000 yrs
    Rev 21: present earth and heaven disappear and a new heaven and earth appear

    In verse 10, Peter says the 'coming of the Lord' is what causes the 'melting of the elements' and the 'destruction of the heavens by fire'. But a literal reading of Rev must place 1000 yrs between His coming and the destruction of 'heaven and earth'.

    This forces us away from the literal interpretation. Hope that helps.

    Peace to you,
    Dave

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    Jesus (Messiah) came proclaming 'the Coming of The Kingdom of God' (in Full), which means the ending of 'The Kingdom that was in process (the Mosic Temple 'world' Kingdom) Well we can say that Jesus died on The Cross to End that Mosic 'Law' of Death... forever.... Jesus (Messiah) ended the relationship, by being 'The Perfect Sacrifice', God dying for, to, and from, The Mosaic marriage Covenant.

    But why are/were the Apostles and Prophets (Jesus, Peter, Paul, ect) proclaiming an 'end' to an Age (was this the New Covenent Age?) that was just getting underway and had just started? We, who are living in this century think that we are being true to the second Testament by 'looking' for The End of The Age.... We are not. For you see, The 'Mosaic Age' did not 'End' At The Cross. For as The Hebrew writer shows (Paraphrase) "As long as The Temple 'was' standing, it (the Temple) Had Standing. By Old Testament language, The Temple was "Heaven"( House or God) and The People were "Earth" (the people of the Land). So, as long as The Nation and The City and The Temple 'World' were intact, The Mosaic Law was 'intact'. That 'Melting' of 'these' 'Elements' were what all of The New Testament Prophets were looking for to End. The Mosaic Covenant Age was not Fully 'Consummated' (brought to completion) until 70 AD..... The Full Kingdom "NOW" of Jesus Christs New Covenant (Marriage) was not brought 'into' Full Consummation until The Feast of Atonment, which was also in 70 AD. Per 'The Promises of The Mosaic Covenant, There were to be 'Judgments'..... Judgments of Curses (death and destruction of the damned) and Judgments of Blessings (everlasting Life of The Election)

    'You' are 'looking' to 'The Future' of 'an End of The Age.... That has and was supposed to have 'Ended' over 2,000 years ago.
    Stop 'looking' for 'somethings' to happen, that has already happened and start living.

    We are not in a 'Religion', we are in a Relationship.... Stop trying to 'Work' on a 'religion' and start living in The Relationship.


    Blessings
    Brother Les
    Very well stated Brother Les,

    God Bless,

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  3. #23
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    End of the World

    Hi,

    I respect your Preterist's view although that is not my view which is the Futurist's view. We can debate till "the cows come home" with no end in sight. Let's respect each other views.

    What I am concern are people who have the self-fulfilling prophesy that the world will never end. The USA and USSR has enough nuclear weapons to destroy the Earth hundreds of times over, who can guarantee that the world will never end? Who can guarantee it will never be used? When there is beginning there is always an ending. The world may end sooner than expected. Richard said it right, we may die tomorrow, who knows? Therefore, my message is always be prepared for salvation for the Day of the Lord will come like a thief i.e. when you least expects.

    God Bless.

  4. #24
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    Cheow Wee Hock Hi,

    I respect your Preterist's view although that is not my view which is the Futurist's view. We can debate till "the cows come home" with no end in sight. Let's respect each other views.
    As myself being in a 'Futurest' Biblical view for 45 years, I understand 'that' 'view' very well. As I have 'come out' of that 'paradiym' five years ago, I do not 'respect' that 'view', now, in any way. I am not a 'First Century' Jew/Gentile, 'looking' for The End of the Mosaic Age 'World' of death.... I live in 2009, and am part of The Age that will Never End of Life. 'Your' Biblical 'view' is from the wrong angel..... for you are not a First Century Jew/Gentile either and can not claim to 'look' 'forward' to.... as 'they' could. 'They' found their realisation of 'The Hope' of The Fathers at one 'moment' in The Past and 'we' are receipteants Already, of That Hope.... Redemption, Resurrection, Salvation....

    As each and every 'Christian' is The Tabernacle/Temple of God. We are at Home, in Heaven on Earth, right now with God. The Kingdom is Here and we are fully in The Kingdom of God. What will become of my Spirit when this flesh and blood body is ground into dust, I do not fully know, but I do know that I will be in The Presence of God, just as I am today, in Heaven.

    You keep 'claiming' a 'futurest' paradiym.... it is an indefensable paradiym.



    Brother Les

  5. #25
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    Preterist's views

    Hi Brother Les,

    I am not against preterist's views; I respect their views which seems to be a new approach to the interpreting and understanding of the Scriptures. Note what Jesus said, "whoever is not against us is for us". Don't be mistaken, I am not thinking of converting to Preterism, I am a hardcore Futurist. In fact, I feel that Futurists and Preterists form good partners, good bedfellows. Anyway, we are one with the Lord despite our opposing views. It is just that I am not comfortable with some of the preterist's views (sorry , if my views sound very opposing to your belief, this is understandable, perhaps , it's my pre-conceived ideas of Preterism). For example:
    * I do not believe everything in the Scriptures were fulfilled in AD 70. If so, what is there for us living in the 21st century to look forward to?...what about the second coming?...etc.
    * Preterists seem to think the end of the world ended in AD 70. I believe the end of the world is yet to come and that we are currently living in the period of the end of the world.
    * Preterist could not account for the scriptural events that occurred from AD 70 to the present and the future.
    * Many verses in the bible which preterists deem as symbolic are in fact literal. Preterists are overly "symbolic".
    *I believe Revelation refers to events occurring before and during the the End of the world. The Holy Bible is like a history book that foretell the events from the creation of the world to the end of the world. That is why it starts from Genesis and ends with Revelation. It is also an instruction manual about the mistakes of mankind and how we could live abundantly as God-loving people.

    God Bless.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    Hi Brother Les,

    I am not against preterist's views; I respect their views which seems to be a new approach to the interpreting and understanding of the Scriptures. Note what Jesus said, "whoever is not against us is for us". Don't be mistaken, I am not thinking of converting to Preterism, I am a hardcore Futurist. In fact, I feel that Futurists and Preterists form good partners, good bedfellows. Anyway, we are one with the Lord despite our opposing views. It is just that I am not comfortable with some of the preterist's views (sorry , if my views sound very opposing to your belief, this is understandable, perhaps , it's my pre-conceived ideas of Preterism). For example:
    Hi Cheow,

    I am very much enjoying this conversation, and I am very glad that you are bringing up things about preterism that you "are not comfortable with." It is very helpful for us all to discuss these things and to clarify our understanding of what the Bible really teaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    * I do not believe everything in the Scriptures were fulfilled in AD 70. If so, what is there for us living in the 21st century to look forward to?...what about the second coming?...etc.
    Are you saying that your life would be meaningless without belief in a visible physical "Second Coming" here on earth? If so, I think you have missed the central point of the Gospel. The central point of the Gospel is that physically, we are all going to die in a very short period of time, but in Christ we have everlasting life begin from the moment we believe, for He is the Resurrection. It has nothing to do with future historical/political events on earth that 99.99% of all Christians won't experience anyway. And besides, politics is not the point of the Gospel. Are you saying that all the lives of all the Christians for the last two thousand years ended in vain because they didn't see the "Second Coming"?

    It would be very interesting to know which specific prophecies you believe are yet to be fulfilled. A close examination of them should clear things up a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    * Preterists seem to think the end of the world ended in AD 70. I believe the end of the world is yet to come and that we are currently living in the period of the end of the world.
    There is a logical confusion called "equivocation" caused by using a single word with two different meanings. No preterist has ever suggested that the "world" as you mean it "came to an end." When the Bible speaks of the "end of the world" it would better be translated as "end of the age" and this fits perfectly with what really happened in the first century when the Jewish Age was ended and the Messianic Age of Jesus Christ began.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    * Preterist could not account for the scriptural events that occurred from AD 70 to the present and the future.
    Which events are you talking about? How do you know they are "scriptural"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    * Many verses in the bible which preterists deem as symbolic are in fact literal. Preterists are overly "symbolic".
    Actually, preterism is the only interpretation that takes the Bible liteally. It says the events were to happen soon, in the first century, durring the lives of that generation, for the time was at hand and the Lord as at the very door. Futurists don't take any of those statements "literally."

    The real difference between futurism and preterism is that futurists interpret the literal things as symbolic, and the symbolic things as literal. They have it exactly backwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    *I believe Revelation refers to events occurring before and during the the End of the world. The Holy Bible is like a history book that foretell the events from the creation of the world to the end of the world. That is why it starts from Genesis and ends with Revelation. It is also an instruction manual about the mistakes of mankind and how we could live abundantly as God-loving people.

    God Bless.
    Yes, I agree that the symmetry of Genesis (Beginning of the World) and Revelation (End of the World) lends itself to the idea that Revelation is talking about the "end" of the "entire physical universe." But that is not necessarily the "end" of which it speaks. After much study, I have come to the conclusion that it is speaking of the "end of the Old Covenant World of sin and death" and the creation of the "New Covenant World of Life in the Messiah." I look forward to clarifying the reasons for this view as our conversation continues.

    Many blessings to you Cheow,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #27
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    The "End of the World" is nowhere to be found within scripture.

    Joe

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    The "End of the World" is nowhere to be found within scripture.

    Joe
    Exactly correct - the problem is that the English word "world" is used to translate "aion" and so the simple folks who don't know any better thing it is talking about the end of the "globe of planet earth." Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Of course, folks can also get confuse becaused 2 Peter speaks of all the "elements" being burned up which they take to mean the "elements" in the periodic table. But that interpretation is also flawed for many reasons. First, the word "elements" is "stoicheion" which generally speaks of the "elements" of the Law and the Jewish religious system which was indeed "burned up" entirely and completely in the first century when fire "came down from heaven" (a symbol of divine judgment) when God used the Romans to destroy His City and Temple that had been utterly corrupted and desolated by the apostate Jews.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #29
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    Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    The "End of the World" is nowhere to be found within scripture.

    Joe
    Exactly correct - the problem is that the English word "world" is used to translate "aion" and so the simple folks who don't know any better thing it is talking about the end of the "globe of planet earth." Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Of course, folks can also get confuse becaused 2 Peter speaks of all the "elements" being burned up which they take to mean the "elements" in the periodic table. But that interpretation is also flawed for many reasons. First, the word "elements" is "stoicheion" which generally speaks of the "elements" of the Law and the Jewish religious system which was indeed "burned up" entirely and completely in the first century when fire "came down from heaven" (a symbol of divine judgment) when God used the Romans to destroy His City and Temple that had been utterly corrupted and desolated by the apostate Jews.

    Richard
    Exactly! I couldn't have stated that any better than you brother Richard! In fact, the Prophets state that the earth abides forever and ever:

    Psalm 78:69
    And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.

    Psalm 104:5
    You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved forever,

    Ecclesiastes 1:4
    One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.


    I see no prophesy speaking of the entire earth being destroyed. This confusion comes from the English interpretation of 2 Peter, which brother Richard has already fantastically explained.

    Great jog brother Richard!

    Joe

  10. #30
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    Earth abides forever

    Hi,

    I used End of the World and End of Ages to mean the same thing. You have mistaken, End of the World does not mean the Earth is gone forever or breaks into pieces like asteroids; it is never stated in the Bible. A New Heaven and a New Earth as stated in Revelation after the Rapture is established on the Earth. In other words, life on Earth will be transformed. The Lord's prayer also mention that the Kingdom of God will be on Earth, "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven".

    Therefore, after the End of the World or End of the Ages, Life on Earth will be renewed. The old human way of life will ceased to exist and a new Golden Age of God-loving people will be established i.e. a New Heaven and a New Earth.

    God Bless.

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