Google Ads

Google Ads

Bible Wheel Book

Google Ads

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 17 FirstFirst 12345612 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 168
  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Not from this world...from the other side
    Posts
    3,236

    Addendum

    Hi Joe,

    To add to my recent post, many prophesies prophesy hundreds of years in advance, seldom a few years or decades in advance. A good example is Daniel who in Daniel Chapter 7 prophesy accurately the Greek Empire broken into 4 sections, the rise of the Parthian Empire, the Egyptian Empire and the Roman Empire. These events occurred 300 to 500 years after the death of Daniel. It should go the same with Revelation which predicted events hundreds or a few thousand years later from the time it was written.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    Hi Joe,

    To add to my recent post, many prophesies prophesy hundreds of years in advance, seldom a few years or decades in advance. A good example is Daniel who in Daniel Chapter 7 prophesy accurately the Greek Empire broken into 4 sections, the rise of the Parthian Empire, the Egyptian Empire and the Roman Empire. These events occurred 300 to 500 years after the death of Daniel. It should go the same with Revelation which predicted events hundreds or a few thousand years later from the time it was written.
    Hi Cheow,

    I think the situation is very different in Daniel. He was told to "seal up the book" because it was not going to be fulfilled for a very long time (about 600 years) after it was written. Exactly the opposite is seen in Revelation. John was told not to seal up the book because the "time was at hand." This seems to imply that Revelation was to be fulfilled in the immeditate first century future, on a time scale significantly less than the 600 years of Daniel, and certainly much less than 2000+ years later, which would be more than three times the time span for Daniel's "sealed book."

    What do you think of this?

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,958
    Hi Cheow,

    I think the situation is very different in Daniel. He was told to "seal up the book" because it was not going to be fulfilled for a very long time (about 600 years) after it was written. Exactly the opposite is seen in Revelation. John was told not to seal up the book because the "time was at hand." This seems to imply that Revelation was to be fulfilled in the immeditate first century future, on a time scale significantly less than the 600 years of Daniel, and certainly much less than 2000+ years later, which would be more than three times the time span for Daniel's "sealed book."

    What do you think of this?

    Richard
    Great post brother Richard. I think the problems seems to be with an eschatology that forces a stretched definition of "time". Daniel's prophesy was fulfilled in Christ, yet that was more than 600 years later. John's Revelation was not provided to be sealed for a distant future generaiton. He is told, "Do not seal up the words of the prophesy of this book, for the time is near...." Yet Daniel is told to "Seal up the words of this prophesy, for it pertains to the distant future...."

    If 600 years is distant, according to Biblical terms, then far less than that must be "soon", according to John's Revelation.

    Joe

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Not from this world...from the other side
    Posts
    3,236

    Short

    When interpreting the bible in regards to the word "short" or "shortly", I would like to remind readers of 2 Peter 3:8 of God's definition of "short". Human definition of is from a few days to a few years but God's definition of "short" is a few thousand years. There are a few wordings 2 Peter 3 which seems to be related to or sounds like in Revelation and Matthew 24....."will come like a thief"...."The heavens will disappear"...."a new heaven and a new earth", "the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare" etc. Therefore if you are using God's definition of "short" or "at hand" or "coming soon" as in Revelation or Matthew 24, it may mean a few thousand years from time of the author's writing, which may mean referring to the present time or the future soon coming events. Beware, Time will tell.

    [B]8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a]

    11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    When interpreting the bible in regards to the word "short" or "shortly", I would like to remind readers of 2 Peter 3:8 of God's definition of "short". Human definition of is from a few days to a few years but God's definition of "short" is a few thousand years. There are a few wordings 2 Peter 3 which seems to be related to or sounds like in Revelation and Matthew 24....."will come like a thief"...."The heavens will disappear"...."a new heaven and a new earth", "the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare" etc. Therefore if you are using God's definition of "short" or "at hand" or "coming soon" as in Revelation or Matthew 24, it may mean a few thousand years from time of the author's writing, which may mean referring to the present time or the future soon coming events. Beware, Time will tell.

    [b]8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a]

    11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
    One thing to keep in mind concerning the prophesies of Matt. 24, is that Jesus gave the Disciples a time parameter of when all the events He spoke of would happen.

    First, Jesus answered their question as to what the sign of the End would be (the stones of the Temple thrown down), then He told them all the events that would happen before the Temple was destroyed. He then went one step further and told them that all these things would happen in their generation.

    History bares out the record that every event Jesus prophesied happened! They not only happened, but did so within the parameter He set, and that was before the stones of the Temple were thrown down......and in the generation that the Disciples lived!

    God Bless,

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    When interpreting the bible in regards to the word "short" or "shortly", I would like to remind readers of 2 Peter 3:8 of God's definition of "short". Human definition of is from a few days to a few years but God's definition of "short" is a few thousand years. There are a few wordings 2 Peter 3 which seems to be related to or sounds like in Revelation and Matthew 24....."will come like a thief"...."The heavens will disappear"...."a new heaven and a new earth", "the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare" etc. Therefore if you are using God's definition of "short" or "at hand" or "coming soon" as in Revelation or Matthew 24, it may mean a few thousand years from time of the author's writing, which may mean referring to the present time or the future soon coming events. Beware, Time will tell.

    [b]8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a]

    11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
    Hi Cheow,

    Those are very important insights to understand the meaning of "a thousand years" in Rev 20. It seems to me that Peter was explaining that the term "thousand years" is a symbol of the "day of the Lord" and the "day of judgment." I drew this conclusion after making a careful comparison of the two passages. Here is a table of the correspondences:




    Here we see that 2 Peter directly links in context the "day of the Lord" and the "coming day of God" to "a thousand years" and explicitly states that a "thousand years" is like a single day to God. The phrase "thousand years" appears in the NT ONLY in these two passages. The "thousand years" and the "day of the Lord" and the "day of judgment" all appear to be a single "DAY" in these integrated passages. Note that the reference to a "new heavens and new earth" is found nowhere else in the NT except these two passages. The convergence of these many ideas in the parallel between 2 Peter 3 and Rev 20 is the ONLY EXPLICIT EVIDENCE that the Bible contains concerning the meaning of the "thousand years" in Rev 20. The futurist theories have NO direct evidence for a literal temporal period of a thousand year reign of Christ on earth, and the actual evidence placed by God in His Word strongly points to a symbolic meaning of the thousand years, since that is how Peter used it in the context which is linked to the Day of the Lord.


    In conclusion, the term "thousand years" does not change the meaning of all the "time" words. When God said "soon" and explained that it was because the "time is at hand" that's exactly what He meant. Otherwise, it would be impossible for God to communicate anything about time. If "soon" and "time is at hand" do not mean what they normally mean, then how could God say "soon" if he meant "soon"?

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Not from this world...from the other side
    Posts
    3,236

    The psychology of "soon"

    As Futurists, we are not so concerned about events that are past, we are more interested in what is in store for us in the future. The only thing we may learnt from events in the past is to relate them to the present so that we do not make the same mistakes again and also to increase our understanding of Holy Scriptures. The Temple may be desolated in AD 70, but what significance is there for us? What so great about AD 70? There is nothing we can do about the past, what we are interested is what will happen in the future. There are probably too much world problems in the coming future that there will not be any London Olympics in 2012. As I said, Time will tell if I am right.

    If the Revelation is about past "soon" coming events why did the author bothered to write about events in the end of the world, a new heaven and a new earth, the Rapture, the Armagedon, the 666, the second death etc.?

    The author may be using applied psychology of the word "soon", I repeat may be. Or perhaps, the author is using God's definition of "soon" which is at least a thousand years as stated in 2 Peter 3 :8. If the author were to say the end of the world is coming soon, say next decade, everyone will be planning to achieve salvation or doing things to achieve salvation. The word "soon" motivates people to prepare and wait continuously in anticipation for the salvation. On the other hand, if the author were to write that the end of the world is coming say 3,000 years later, people will be complacent and will demotivate people living in the past and present to seek, prepare and wait for salvation.

    God bless.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    As Futurists, we are not so concerned about events that are past, we are more interested in what is in store for us in the future. The only thing we may learnt from events in the past is to relate them to the present so that we do not make the same mistakes again and also to increase our understanding of Holy Scriptures. The Temple may be desolated in AD 70, but what significance is there for us? What so great about AD 70? There is nothing we can do about the past, what we are interested is what will happen in the future. There are probably too much world problems in the coming future that there will not be any London Olympics in 2012. As I said, Time will tell if I am right.
    Hi Cheow,

    The events of the past, such as the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, are the things that define the Christian faith. They define what we believe, and so are of utmost significance. This is very different than speculations about current events which are always changing, and which are nothing compared with the central event of all history - the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the first century.


    God did not give us the prophecies so we could spend our days speculating about what might happen in the future. On the contrary, the prophecies were given so that we could know that the Bible is true, and that Jesus Christ is the saviour, as it is written:
    John 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

    The purpose of the prophecies is to build faith, as it is written:
    John 20:30-31 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
    This coincides with the purpose of the Bible itself, and it seems to me that speculations about the future actually oppose the purpose of the Bible, because when people say "This is what the Bible says will happen" and then it fails to come to pass, their faith is damaged. They were told that the Bible teaches something that it did not really teach, so it corrodes their faith in God and His Word. This is the exact opposite of the real purpose of the prophecies, which were given to build faith by showing that God knew the beginning from the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    If the Revelation is about past "soon" coming events why did the author bothered to write about events in the end of the world, a new heaven and a new earth, the Rapture, the Armagedon, the 666, the second death etc.?
    For the same reason that Hebrews told the first century Christians that they had already come to the heavenly Jerusalem through faith in Christ:
    Hebrews 12:22-24 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
    The book of Revelation was written in symbols to communicate spiritual truths, not to predict some events 2000+ years yet future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    The author may be using applied psychology of the word "soon", I repeat may be. Or perhaps, the author is using God's definition of "soon" which is at least a thousand years as stated in 2 Peter 3 :8.
    Did you understand the connections between Revelation 20 and 2 Peter that show that the "thousand years" was a symbol for the "day of the Lord"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    If the author were to say the end of the world is coming soon, say next decade, everyone will be planning to achieve salvation or doing things to achieve salvation. The word "soon" motivates people to prepare and wait continuously in anticipation for the salvation. On the other hand, if the author were to write that the end of the world is coming say 3,000 years later, people will be complacent and will demotivate people living in the past and present to seek, prepare and wait for salvation.

    God bless.
    Actually, every passage that spoke about the end said it was coming "soon" for the "time is at hand" and "the Lord is at the door" and that all these things would be fulfilled "in this generation" etc, and so on. In other words, every single reference to "the end of the world" said it was soon, so we know that your idea of "lack of motivation" can not be correct. Indeed, the Apostle Paul said it would be better if folks didn't even marry because the end was so soon!
    1 Corinthians 7:26-27 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be. 27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
    I am very much enjoying this conversation Cheow. I am delighted to discuss these things with folks who have a different understanding because "iron sharpens iron."

    Many blessings to you,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,113
    Cheow Wee Hock posted
    As Futurists, we are not so concerned about events that are past, we are more interested in what is in store for us in the future. The only thing we may learnt from events in the past is to relate them to the present so that we do not make the same mistakes again and also to increase our understanding of Holy Scriptures. The Temple may be desolated in AD 70, but what significance is there for us? What so great about AD 70?
    You are being true to the teachings of the First Century Apostles and Disiples. They, as you, were looking to 'The Coming, End of The Age'.

    The 'events of The Past, will tell you where you are in the present, to help show you where you are going into the 'Future'....

    What 'Age' was The Age that the First Century Christians living in? Scripture says that Jesus was 'Born under The Law'.... What 'Law' was this? 'The Law' of Moses or 'The Law' of Christ? Jesus 'Had Come' to usher in 'The Kingdom' of God... But there was already 'a' 'Kingdom' 'there'. Was this 'Temple Worship Cultus System 'not' the 'Kingdom' of God? Scripture clearly states that that 'kingdom' had fell into Harlotry and there by was estranged From God... but through Juduah, Shiloh was promise to come.

    Jesus (Messiah) came proclaming 'the Coming of The Kingdom of God' (in Full), which means the ending of 'The Kingdom that was in process (the Mosic Temple 'world' Kingdom) Well we can say that Jesus died on The Cross to End that Mosic 'Law' of Death... forever.... Jesus (Messiah) ended the relationship, by being 'The Perfect Sacrifice', God dying for, to, and from, The Mosaic marriage Covenant.

    But why are/were the Apostles and Prophets (Jesus, Peter, Paul, ect) proclaiming an 'end' to an Age (was this the New Covenent Age?) that was just getting underway and had just started? We, who are living in this century think that we are being true to the second Testament by 'looking' for The End of The Age.... We are not. For you see, The 'Mosaic Age' did not 'End' At The Cross. For as The Hebrew writer shows (Paraphrase) "As long as The Temple 'was' standing, it (the Temple) Had Standing. By Old Testament language, The Temple was "Heaven"( House or God) and The People were "Earth" (the people of the Land). So, as long as The Nation and The City and The Temple 'World' were intact, The Mosaic Law was 'intact'. That 'Melting' of 'these' 'Elements' were what all of The New Testament Prophets were looking for to End. The Mosaic Covenant Age was not Fully 'Consemated' (brought to completion) until 70 AD..... The Full Kingdom "NOW" of Jesus Christs New Covenant (Marriage) was not brought 'into' Full Consemation until The Feast of Atonment, which was also in 70 AD. Per 'The Promises of The Mosaic Covenant, There were to be 'Judgments'..... Judgments of Curses (death and destruction of the damned) and Judgments of Blessings (everlasting Life of The Election)

    'You' are 'looking' to 'The Future' of 'an End of The Age.... That has and was supposed to have 'Ended' over 2,000 years ago.
    Stop 'looking' for 'somethings' to happen, that has already happened and start living.

    We are not in a 'Religion', we are in a Relationship.... Stop trying to 'Work' on a 'religion' and start living in The Relationship.


    Blessings
    Brother Les
    Last edited by Brother Les; 01-08-2009 at 01:58 PM.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    537
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    What so great about AD 70?
    Ask the early churches who Paul wrote to and the believers in Jerusalem who were savagely persecuted by the corrupt Jewish leaders of the temple worship system.

    Do you think that the massive destruction of the center of Judiasm on an epic scale was seen by those in the Roman Empire (the "world" at that time) as solid evidence that "the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it' (Matt 21:43) ?

    70AD was also a remarkable testimony to the authenticity of Christ who prophesied the unimaginable events He described to the disciples telling them "this generation shall not pass away until all these things take place". And they did within 40 yrs of His words.

    If the Revelation is about past "soon" coming events why did the author bothered to write about events in the end of the world, a new heaven and a new earth, the Rapture, the Armagedon, the 666, the second death etc.?
    Since the angel told John the events "must shortly take place....for the time is near", we may need to revisit interpretations of those events which force them to occur thousands of years later.

    The author may be using applied psychology of the word "soon", I repeat may be.
    I'm not aware of any Scripture at all where God utilizes trickery or psychology to motivate us to do something. He tells it like it is and we either respond or disobey.

    Peace to you,
    Dave

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 6 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 6 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may edit your posts
  •