Google Ads

Google Ads

Bible Wheel Book

Google Ads

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 17 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 168
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,968

    The Mark of the Beast 666 / 616

    I thought I'd revive an old topic that we've not discussed in quite some time. I couldn't find the original Thread I started months ago, that contained my 666 post. Brother Richard, if you locate that Thread, please feel free to shut this one down, and move the discussion to that Thread.

    On with the discussion!

    666? Mark of the Beast? Chip implants? Gamatria? Which is it? Who of us within our day has understanding? Who of us attended many seminars, taken classes, or researched the web so much, and so long, that we've discovered the meaning of the Beast's Mark? The answer should be no one. Well if no one, then how could anyone understand what is meant by the Mark of the Beast? Better yet, why shouldn't we just listen to God's word for what it says, and await the day for when the Anti-Christ will come, and establish his mandated mark? In other words, why not take it literally?

    Why not???? The answer is because taking the mark literal is NOT scriptural.

    I was reading an article written by Ken Davies, and I find a very interesting article discussing the Mark. Here's the link:

    http://beyondtheendtimes.com/writing...vies/mark.html

    Let's first read the passage in question:

    Revelation 13:
    16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
    Taking this literal is not wise, for a few strong reasons. For one, those of you who might feel compelled to take the mark literal, may as well take the Beast literal. If John says that this mark is literal (such as a chip implant), then the Beast must be literal as well. Let us then look for the Clash of the Titan where the Cragon rises from the sea, and we'll need to find the head of Medusa so as to get the seven headed beast to stare into the ugliness of Medusa, thereby causing the Beast to turn into a huge pillar of stone. This is called fantasy folks.

    The primary reason I believe the Mark is a figurative expression is perhaps the strongest support for my position. The Bible doesn't teach us that this mark is literal. How so? If you don't understand Jewish literature, you will never understand their traditional figures. Let us use an example of the mark being applied to someone's forehead.

    Ezekiel 9:3-6
    3 Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub, where it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer’s inkhorn at his side; 4 and the LORD said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.” 5 To the others He said in my hearing, “Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity. 6 Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple.......
    Friends? Was the Ezekiel shown a vision of a man holding an ink pen literally marking everyone who was to be spared? Of course not! Yet that is exactly how modern day Futurist's treat Revelation. There were two marks in John's Revelation of Jesus. One was the mark, or seal of those who were being spared from the destruction and Tribulation. The other mark was of the Beast; that is, those who would be spared temporarily by the Beast's Kingdom, but later destroyed by the "coming" of Christ.

    A simple comparison shows that the mark being applied to the forehead shows that their conscious (or mind) was set on the things of God. In short, these are the faithful. The anti-type, or the opposite, is the mark of the beast, whether on the forehead (consciously), or on the right hand (greeting hand, or working hand).

    What is the message? You are either on God's side, or the Beasts (Satan). Now think of the message, and let us determine if such an interpretation fits in the first century? The Roman Empire persecuted Saints by the thousands in the first three centuries. In fact, at what time in Roman History did they not persecute Christians? [Note: I'm not referring to the Spanish Inquisition by the RCC; I'm referring to the Roman Empire as it was in the first century]

    The last important fact is how Ezekiel's vision parallels with John's Revelation. Both events spoke of the destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem. Ezekiel was shown that those who mourned and lamented for the corruption of the temple were spared. But those who took pride in its condition were marked for destruction. The same for John's Revelation. Those who were "marked" for salvation (deliverance) from the coming destruction were given time to leave. Those who took pride in the temple and its condition were marked for judgment of God's wrath [first century Jews who rejected Christ and loved the temple markets for profit]. Did all of this happen?

    YOU BET IT DID! In 70AD, just as Christ explained to the Apostles.

    Do you believe now? Great! If not, then what's holding you back?

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 12-21-2008 at 08:06 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    747
    I agree Joe that it was symbolic of what you speak of. The law also served in that capacity as well.

    Exo 13:9 It shall be for a sign to you on your hand, and for a memorial between your eyes, that the law of Yahweh may be in your mouth; for with a strong hand Yahweh has brought you out of Egypt.


    Deu 6:8 You shall bind them for a sign on your hand, and they shall be for symbols between your eyes.

    Deu 11:18 Therefore you shall lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul; and you shall bind them for a sign on your hand, and they shall be for symbols between your eyes.

    Same location, on the hand and on the forehead (between the eyes).

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,968
    I agree Joe that it was symbolic of what you speak of. The law also served in that capacity as well.

    Exo 13:9 It shall be for a sign to you on your hand, and for a memorial between your eyes, that the law of Yahweh may be in your mouth; for with a strong hand Yahweh has brought you out of Egypt.


    Deu 6:8 You shall bind them for a sign on your hand, and they shall be for symbols between your eyes.

    Deu 11:18 Therefore you shall lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul; and you shall bind them for a sign on your hand, and they shall be for symbols between your eyes.

    Same location, on the hand and on the forehead (between the eyes).
    Agreed, and you are 100% percent correct. Many in our day do not understand the significance of the right hand, or the forehead. The Right Hand is the dominant hand of greeting, working, and cleaning. The forehead, or between the eyes, represents the mind of acceptance, and focus.

    Here's an example:

    Sit Thou at My right hand until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet....

    Does God have a right hand? No, He is a Spirit. But what does this passage mean? It means that Christ Jesus is the right hand of God, the working of God, the love of God, and the righteousness of God. The right hand is dominant to most people, and thus all work is done with their right hand.

    The mind is also where we consciously accept or reject things of this life. Thus to submit oneself to idol worship, or even to God, you do so with the heart and the mind.

    Therefore, to receive the mark of the Beast (righthand or forehead) is to submit your mind to things he demands, and to perform the works he expects (right hand). The anti-type is the mark of the Holy Spirit; if we submit to His rule (mind) and work out our salvation with trembling, love, and fear (right hand), we have God's acceptance.

    Joe

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    800
    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Agreed, and you are 100% percent correct. Many in our day do not understand the significance of the right hand, or the forehead. The Right Hand is the dominant hand of greeting, working, and cleaning. The forehead, or between the eyes, represents the mind of acceptance, and focus.

    Here's an example:

    Sit Thou at My right hand until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet....

    Does God have a right hand? No, He is a Spirit. But what does this passage mean? It means that Christ Jesus is the right hand of God, the working of God, the love of God, and the righteousness of God. The right hand is dominant to most people, and thus all work is done with their right hand.

    The mind is also where we consciously accept or reject things of this life. Thus to submit oneself to idol worship, or even to God, you do so with the heart and the mind.

    Therefore, to receive the mark of the Beast (righthand or forehead) is to submit your mind to things he demands, and to perform the works he expects (right hand). The anti-type is the mark of the Holy Spirit; if we submit to His rule (mind) and work out our salvation with trembling, love, and fear (right hand), we have God's acceptance.

    Joe
    Hi Joe and Ron,

    "A simple comparison shows that the mark being applied to the forehead shows that their conscious (or mind) was set on the things of God. In short, these are the faithful. The anti-type, or the opposite, is the mark of the beast, whether on the forehead (consciously), or on the right hand (greeting hand, or working hand).
    What is the message? You are either on God's side, or the Beasts (Satan)."

    I agree and would add a few things.
    The forehead and between the eyes is the seat of the third eye. It is our spiritual perception. For some it is percieving very high realms, for others lower realms.

    Mt 6:21 "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
    22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
    23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"

    In the Qabala the right side is the side of Power and the left the side of love.

    Calculating the number of the beast in the Biblical/Gematria sense comes up with one name in the Pentatuch. It is Sethur and means "Hidden."
    So the principle of "hidden" is what we are discussing here...a "Mystery."

    The Mysteries are what Jesus shared with his Apostles. "Unto you are given to know the Mysteries, but unto them that are without..etc."

    I think what we do sometimes, though, is confuse literal with symbolic with hidden things.
    I believe there is a literal Beast. He is hidden until "Revealed" in the "midst of the week." "Week" being covenant and seven.
    This revealing is the opening of our third eye or "Spiritual sight" and is Revelation.
    Because everyone does not see it does not mean it is not actual and literal.
    It just means that it is a Mystery that is "hidden" to those who do not see it.

    We do not all reach or become aware of the "midst of the week."

    Bob

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,968
    I think what we do sometimes, though, is confuse literal with symbolic with hidden things.
    I believe there is a literal Beast. He is hidden until "Revealed" in the "midst of the week." "Week" being covenant and seven.
    This revealing is the opening of our third eye or "Spiritual sight" and is Revelation.
    Because everyone does not see it does not mean it is not actual and literal.
    It just means that it is a Mystery that is "hidden" to those who do not see it.

    We do not all reach or become aware of the "midst of the week."

    Bob
    In some cases you are right. But the "Mark" is not a literal mark to be seen. The idea was in the behavior of the individual, and not the physical attributes of someone wearing a mark. So what if someone took a stamp and willfully "marked" someone with a branded name 666? Will the person who was forced to take a mark against his will be punished? Of course not! Why would someone be held accountable for something he/she didn't do. Let's go a step further. If a chip implant is the mark, and all one needs to do is have it injected, then obviously those refusing to take the chip implant will live (according to the Futurist paradigm) Now lets say that Uncle Sam secretly injected his children with the chip implant disguised as a flu vaccination. Will those who received the chip implant now be subject to the anti-Christ when he/she had no idea of a chip ever being planted into him/her? Of course not! It's all about behavior, and not about physically having a mark.

    Yes a figurative message is fulfilled in a literal sense, and in that we can both agree. But for someone to expect a literal mark bearing the number 666 to be forced upon all man misses the "mark" all together. Besides, Ezekiel 9 proved that the mark wasn't literal. It's a spiritual message to those who could understand.

    Joe

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    In some cases you are right. But the "Mark" is not a literal mark to be seen. The idea was in the behavior of the individual, and not the physical attributes of someone wearing a mark. So what if someone took a stamp and willfully "marked" someone with a branded name 666? Will the person who was forced to take a mark against his will be punished? Of course not! Why would someone be held accountable for something he/she didn't do. Let's go a step further. If a chip implant is the mark, and all one needs to do is have it injected, then obviously those refusing to take the chip implant will live (according to the Futurist paradigm) Now lets say that Uncle Sam secretly injected his children with the chip implant disguised as a flu vaccination. Will those who received the chip implant now be subject to the anti-Christ when he/she had no idea of a chip ever being planted into him/her? Of course not! It's all about behavior, and not about physically having a mark.

    Yes a figurative message is fulfilled in a literal sense, and in that we can both agree. But for someone to expect a literal mark bearing the number 666 to be forced upon all man misses the "mark" all together. Besides, Ezekiel 9 proved that the mark wasn't literal. It's a spiritual message to those who could understand.

    Joe
    You make a very good point against a physical mark, even in a first century time frame. Another scenario would be a parent taking the mark just so he could buy food for his children. The more one thinks about the whole literal, physical mark idea the more unrealistic it becomes.

    God Bless,

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,968
    You make a very good point against a physical mark, even in a first century time frame. Another scenario would be a parent taking the mark just so he could buy food for his children. The more one thinks about the whole literal, physical mark idea the more unrealistic it becomes.

    God Bless,

    Rose
    Precisely sister Rose. I have no reason to believe that John was being shown a vision of those receiving a literal Mark in order to participate in the economy. Now there might have been certificates, as the Roman Empire in the late 1st century, and into the 2nd century, did issue certificates signed by people who performed the sacrificial ceremonies to the Emperor, and their gods. There are copies of it on the internet.

    The implication about the mark is in the pattern of behavior, and not the mark itself. Too many people today treat the mark with a kind of paranoia.

    If you want to participate in the economy (Roman that is) then, you must partake of the sacrificial meat, worship their gods, and bow down to the Emperor. If accused of being a Christian, then you must denounce that you are a Christian, or face a nasty trial filled with oodles of torture and execution. This all refers to behavior, and not a physical mark, as though the mark itself were the defining cause of someone's death penalty. Look at the paranoia that exists among Christian's today, with the concept of a chimp implant. Visiting some of the Christian forums that are "Futurist only" is very entertaining. They give Hollywood more ideas for the next Left Behind movie, and Hollywood is laughing all the way to the bank.

    It's really not that difficult, but too many within our day keep looking to fictional fulfillments that are just not there. Sadly, it'll never end. Each generation will come up with something else to ponder on. Before you know it, an invisible stamp on the skin with a digital identity, seen only when passed over a scanner, will be the mark. Wait and see. When they come up with identity cards stamped on our skin, but seen only when passed over a scanner....watch how many dooms Sayers come out then.

    Paranoia I say....complete paranoia.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 12-23-2008 at 06:36 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Not from this world...from the other side
    Posts
    3,236

    Literal and Scriptural

    Sometimes, I find it difficult to differentiate what is literal and what is scriptural in the bible. Are the miracles performed by the Lord scriptural as well ? If so then I think the Holy Bible is a scrap!

    What we could not fathom should not be regarded as scriptural. A mark could literally be anything from a seal, a spot, a stamp, a scar, a brand, an icon, a cartoon etc. A writer’s inkhorn in Ezekiel 9 could be a ink pen or something of a futuristic pen say a laser pen which could mark hundreds of people instantly. Nothing is impossible with God.

    I personally believe when we interpret the bible, we should use both literal and scriptural means and in the ancient sense and the modern or future sense. We must take into consideration the knowledge or vocabulary of the author writing at that time, for example, in Revelation 13, it is difficult for an author 2,000 years ago as in Revelation 13 to describe a modern rifle but as a bow; it is difficult for an author 2,000 years ago to describe nuclear missile but to call it as a Great or Hugh Sword; it is difficult for an author 2,000 years ago to describe petroleum and ethanol but as olive oil and wine.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,968
    Sometimes, I find it difficult to differentiate what is literal and what is scriptural in the bible. Are the miracles performed by the Lord scriptural as well ? If so then I think the Holy Bible is a scrap!

    What we could not fathom should not be regarded as scriptural. A mark could literally be anything from a seal, a spot, a stamp, a scar, a brand, an icon, a cartoon etc. A writer’s inkhorn in Ezekiel 9 could be a ink pen or something of a futuristic pen say a laser pen which could mark hundreds of people instantly. Nothing is impossible with God.

    I personally believe when we interpret the bible, we should use both literal and scriptural means and in the ancient sense and the modern or future sense. We must take into consideration the knowledge or vocabulary of the author writing at that time, for example, in Revelation 13, it is difficult for an author 2,000 years ago as in Revelation 13 to describe a modern rifle but as a bow; it is difficult for an author 2,000 years ago to describe nuclear missile but to call it as a Great or Hugh Sword; it is difficult for an author 2,000 years ago to describe petroleum and ethanol but as olive oil and wine.
    Greetings Cheow Wee Hock. It's nice to see you, and welcome to the Biblewheel forum.

    Let me say that you bring up some interesting points. I'm interested in what eschatology you stand on. Are you of the Futurist eschatology? Or the Historicist eschatology?

    If we were to assume that what the author was seeing was visions of a distant future, then Jesus would never have said:

    Revelation 1:
    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
    The author, St. John, was given instructions to take to seven Churches which existed in what was once Asia Minor, but now modern day Turkey. The opening paragraph shows a sense of urgency, and it was important that these Churches receive information about a very important message that pertained to them. This was to prepare them for what was "near" and "shortly" to take place. Additionally, the seven Churches who originally received the message no longer exist. Therefore, why would Revelation imply a set of distant visions for a Church that would not participate in its message seeing they no longer exist? Even a "bow" is not taken literally, because it implies a spiritual message. The Mark was intended to be taken literally, any less than the mark in Ezekiel was intended to be literal. This is easily proved because the vision in Ezekiel has long been fulfilled, yet at no time in history was anyone in Israel marked with a literal ink-horn.

    Some might argue, such as the Historicist camp does, that what started in the first century with the seven Churches, continues throughout all of mankind's history. Thus what started with them (1st century) will be completed in the distant future, when Christ returns. But even the final chapter of Revelation reads:

    Revelation 22:
    6 Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.
    This denotes a complete summary of the visions which must "Shortly" take place.

    If these are all past, then how does that have anything to do with us? We learn from them, and their testimony serves as a witness for all generations.

    I'm interested in more from you my new friend.

    Again, welcome.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 12-25-2008 at 08:16 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Not from this world...from the other side
    Posts
    3,236

    Post Futurist View

    Hi Joe,
    Merry Christmas and Good Tidings to you.

    I am a Futurists. As Futurists, we believe the word "short" or "very soon" may mean a few hundred to a few thousand years. What is a few hundred or few thousand years to our Eternal God?...it's short, very short! very soon!

    Revelation certainly talks about future events, if not why it talks about the second death, the Lord's second coming, a new heaven and a new earth. All these events have not happened and are certainly not "very near" in human terms.

    As Futurist, we tend to see things literally yet I personally feel that to interpret the bible more accurately and to be more perspective, we must also see things scripturally. To be more perspective, our mindset should not be why but why not, not what but what if. A verse may seem scriptural but why can't it be interpreted literally, what if the verse is literally true?...and vice versa. We must also take into consideration the context, the background, the author's knowledge and understanding, the author's vocabulary when interpreting the bible. As I said a mark could be anything...even a microchip (I am not insisting it is a microchip). In Revelation 13, the author is obviously challenging us for the identity of the 666. It says it contains number and meaning of the number of the beast (in computer terms - digits and data). An author 2,000 years ago willl not be able to understand what is an implanted microchip, not to say described it and he will just described it as a mark that contains a number and meaning. If it is scriptural, why did the author challenged us to find the identity of the 666? Some say it's Emperor Nero, the Cardinal etc. based on the calculation of the name that adds up to 666 but it's all speculations....or perhaps a future leader from Asia, no one can be sure at this moment. Only Time will tell.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may edit your posts
  •