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  1. #21
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    Hi Richard.

    I'm not using the reduced value of 666, I'm simply taking the ordinal value of the individual digits, as if they were FFF. So there is no new rule invented. It's ordinal values all the way. Experience has taught me that this is how numerals are to be treated. However, it has also taught me that numbers, especially in tables, are to be summed as they are. I'll give you examples of both tommorow. I'll also give you another example of an integrated structure.
    Here is an example where the numbers are to be summed as their value.

    In my webpage Genesis Genealogies

    http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/gen...nealogies.html

    I show what I think is a truly astonishing encoding of numbers that refer, again, to Yehoshua and Ihsous, encrypted within a genealogical list that must be at least 1000 years old, and probably much older.

    I don't know how to display images on postings (perhaps you would be kind enough to show me) but I'll summarise the main points below.

    Genesis contains a genealogical listing of the lifespans of Adam and his descendents, beginning in Genesis 5:3 and ending in Genesis 50:22. If the text numbers are summed, two numbers immediately stand out, both because of their value and because of their location. These are

    20391, which is the sum to Genesis 25:7.

    and

    20888, which is the sum to Genesis 50:22.

    Now the last three digits of each number are 391 (Yehoshua) and 888 (Ihsous), already featured in the Creation Snowflake and other Genesis-related encodings. Moreover, the first digit is 2, all of which suggests the Second Coming to me. The number 20888 also has an interesting factor:

    20888 = 373 x 56

    This is interesting enough, but on its own not convincing enough. However, there is a fantastic confluence with the ordinal values of the verses here.

    20391 is found in the Bible's 666th verse.

    666 is related to the beast, which I claim was symbolically destroyed on 9/11.

    20888 is found in the Bible's 1529th verse.

    Jesus Christ (s) + The Second Coming (s) = 1529

    There are other minor numerical confluences here, but these to me are sensational. Moreover, these locations are the points in the Genesis narrative where Abraham and Joseph die, having led the people of Israel through important transitional periods in the history of the Jews. Another important transitional period, the flood, is the site of another encoding, which happens to occur at the point where Noah dies. The Second Coming could also be called a transitional period, of course, so there is a meaningful link here.

    I would also speculate that Pope John Paul II, who was by all accounts a very great Pope, played a similar role to Noah, Abraham and Joseph in guiding the Roman Catholic church, and of course I am saying that his death, which reflects the death of the biblical fathers, was the second part of a two-part drama, and represented Christ's resurrection.

    So we have a confluence of events, place values and numbers that have great meaning when viewed through the lens of the New Bible Code, and tell the same story as the rest of the code.

    What say you, Richard?

    Bill

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Hi Richard.
    I'm not using the reduced value of 666, I'm simply taking the ordinal value of the individual digits, as if they were FFF. So there is no new rule invented. It's ordinal values all the way. Experience has taught me that this is how numerals are to be treated. However, it has also taught me that numbers, especially in tables, are to be summed as they are. I'll give you examples of both tommorow. I'll also give you another example of an integrated structure.
    Hi Bill,

    I said it looked like you were using the "reduced" value because the reduced value is found by taking the sum of the digits. In my unerstanding, the reduced value of 666 = 6 + 6 + 6 = 18. Is this not how you are using the idea of "reduced value" as in Jesus (888) reduced = 8 + 8 + 8 = 24?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Here is an example where the numbers are to be summed as their value.

    In my webpage Genesis Genealogies

    http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/gen...nealogies.html

    I show what I think is a truly astonishing encoding of numbers that refer, again, to Yehoshua and Ihsous, encrypted within a genealogical list that must be at least 1000 years old, and probably much older.

    I don't know how to display images on postings (perhaps you would be kind enough to show me) but I'll summarise the main points below.
    It's very simple to display images. The easiest way is to use this icon at the top of the edit window. Just click it and type in the url to the pic. Alternatley , you can type in this code [img]url to image[/img].

    I don't have time right now to evaluate the geneology page.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    I would also speculate that Pope John Paul II, who was by all accounts a very great Pope, played a similar role to Noah, Abraham and Joseph in guiding the Roman Catholic church, and of course I am saying that his death, which reflects the death of the biblical fathers, was the second part of a two-part drama, and represented Christ's resurrection.

    So we have a confluence of events, place values and numbers that have great meaning when viewed through the lens of the New Bible Code, and tell the same story as the rest of the code.

    What say you, Richard?

    Bill
    Well, I have a very difficult time believing that God encoded dates and names relating to current events in the Bible. Folks have been doing calculations like that for millennia and they have an absolutely perfect track record of absolute failure. And the connections you find seem extremely tenuous to me and I see no way to confirm them. I guess I should let you know that I am extremely allegic to speculations about the "end times" and "second coming" and all that. Just talking about it makes me sne ... snee ... aaahh ... aahhh ... aachoooooooo!

    Talk more soon,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #23
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    Hi Richard.

    I said it looked like you were using the "reduced" value because the reduced value is found by taking the sum of the digits. In my unerstanding, the reduced value of 666 = 6 + 6 + 6 = 18. Is this not how you are using the idea of "reduced value" as in Jesus (888) reduced = 8 + 8 + 8 = 24?
    It amounts to the same as the reduced value, for sure, but my point is that I'm not changing systems as you asserted, just counting the ordinal value of each letter in a word or digit in a number. The standard, ordinal and reduced value systems don't properly apply to numbers (unless they are written as words) so I can't be accused of changing systems.

    In fact, as I readily admit, it seems that numbers can also be summed as the value they represent. I came to this conclusion after much empirical work. Decoding the NBC is like stumbling around in a dark house at midnight with one key and a vague instruction to find a few objects within it. Nobody gave me a plan, showed me where the light switches were or even told me what I was to find. So I can't be certain about all of my findings - although I'm pretty sure about the main thrust of the code.

    Interestingly, if all the numbers in Rev. 13 are summed as their values we obtain

    10 + 7 + 10 + 1 + 42 + 2 + 666 = 738

    The Second Appearing (s) = 738

    Well, I have a very difficult time believing that God encoded dates and names relating to current events in the Bible. Folks have been doing calculations like that for millennia and they have an absolutely perfect track record of absolute failure. And the connections you find seem extremely tenuous to me and I see no way to confirm them. I guess I should let you know that I am extremely allegic to speculations about the "end times" and "second coming" and all that. Just talking about it makes me sne ... snee ... aaahh ... aahhh ... aachoooooooo!
    I gather from a previous statement you made that you are a preterist. As for myself I don't belong to any school of thought regarding the Second Coming. In fact, I spent most of my adult life as an atheist or near-atheist, with no interest in, and little understanding of Christianity and the theological debates that rage within the Christian community. As far as theology goes, that is still the case.

    I was 'trained' to find the code by means of a three-and-a-half year awakening which shattered by materialistic belief system, showed me a larger reality, led me towards a study of gematria and taught me that at least some historical events are timed in some way. I only became a Christian reluctantly, following the very obvious signs that were given me, and, although I'm very glad I took the advice of whoever is guiding me, I still have many problems with many aspects of Christian belief.

    One advantage of not having lived my life as part of the Christian community is that I have no emotional ties to any denomination, or any eschatological beliefs or expectations. I can approach the NBC and the idea of the Second Coming fairly impartially. In fact I had no idea at first that the code concerned the Second Coming, although it seemed obvious from the start that the twin towers and the Pentagon in some way represented the beast of Revelation. It took me years to understand that 9/11 and the Pope's funeral really did represent Christ's return.

    I think that 9/11 and the Pope's funeral were created to fulfil biblical prophecy in a general sense and to satisfy the apocalyptic expectations of the Christian community. They also contain a vital message for the western capitalist democracies, pointing to the very source of our troubles: avarice and the use of force to serve that avarice. The USA is the new Rome, an evil empire, built upon greed, materialism and economic expansion. Many other countries, including the UK, where I live, follow the same model. What do most westerners, including Christians, really put their faith in? God's providence, or financial security? We worship at the altar of mammon, nearly all of us.

    A colleague of mine, who knew nothing of my work, had a dream a few years ago which she felt she should tell me. In the dream she changed bodies with a beautiful cousin, who then went to her bedroom, where her father stood. He had discovered her diary, in which she had written many hateful things about him. Her father then lashed her cousin (in her body) across the back and chopped off two of her fingers. It didn't take me long to figure out that the two fingers represented the twin towers, the lashings across her back represented the scourging and that her beautiful cousin, who entered her body to take her punishment, represented Christ, who did the same for us all. It simultaneously showed me that 9/11 represented the crucifixion and was also a 'punishment' for (really a consequence of) turning our backs on God.

    The night after Pope John Paul II's funeral I had a dream. I was standing with my wife at a local cemetary when a man I know walked past heading north (which in dreams generally means back to 'the source'). From the back I could see that he was wearing the Pope's mitre and was wearing white. My wife then pointed to him and said 'That's Christ lost his hands and his feet.' Of course popes bless with their hands and that particular pope travelled further than any other. Now I'm not a Roman Catholic, but it seemed to me that the dream was telling me that there was something special about this particular pope, that he was a true servant.

    On the morning of 9/11 I heard the words 'serpent power' spoken to me. It seemed obvious when the attacks occurred that the words refered to this event. Christians will usually interpret that as something demonic, but in the kabbalah, the serpent can also be the Christ. In Hebrew, both 'the messiah' and 'the serpent' have the same gematria (363, or 11 x 11 x 3). On the morning of the popes funeral, I 'saw' the words 'I begin now.' Now, if we sum the ordinal values of 'serpent power' and 'I begin now' we obtain 272, which is the ordinal value of

    Jesus Christ (o) + Second Coming (o) = 272

    This is the tip of an iceberg of information I have received, all insisting on the same message: now is the time of the Second Coming. In fact, the New Bible Code itself is part of the Second Coming, which is not the physical return of Jesus Christ, but the working out of an archetypal pattern that has great meaning for us as a species and will ensure our transition to a higher level of being.

    In Christ,

    Bill

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Hi Richard.
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    I said it looked like you were using the "reduced" value because the reduced value is found by taking the sum of the digits. In my unerstanding, the reduced value of 666 = 6 + 6 + 6 = 18. Is this not how you are using the idea of "reduced value" as in Jesus (888) reduced = 8 + 8 + 8 = 24?
    It amounts to the same as the reduced value, for sure, but my point is that I'm not changing systems as you asserted, just counting the ordinal value of each letter in a word or digit in a number. The standard, ordinal and reduced value systems don't properly apply to numbers (unless they are written as words) so I can't be accused of changing systems.
    Good morning (here in the USA, anyway) my friend,

    I certainly did not meant to "accuse" you of anything! I was just looking for the clearlest possible language to discuss your work. I don't understand why you would say that the "standard" and the "ordinal" don't work for numbers, since the "reduced value" of Jesus = 888 is calculated from the number 888 by adding its digits 8 + 8 + 8 = 24. In other words, the "standard value" of a number is represented as abc (base ten) then its "reduced value" is the sum of those digits. So the real question is why we should choose to use the reduced rather than the standard value in Rev 13:18. My first inclination would be to use the standard value.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    In fact, as I readily admit, it seems that numbers can also be summed as the value they represent. I came to this conclusion after much empirical work. Decoding the NBC is like stumbling around in a dark house at midnight with one key and a vague instruction to find a few objects within it. Nobody gave me a plan, showed me where the light switches were or even told me what I was to find. So I can't be certain about all of my findings - although I'm pretty sure about the main thrust of the code.

    Interestingly, if all the numbers in Rev. 13 are summed as their values we obtain

    10 + 7 + 10 + 1 + 42 + 2 + 666 = 738

    The Second Appearing (s) = 738
    Yes, and how many other one, two, or three word phrases sum to that same number? I don't have any exact figure, but I would guess it to be in the thousands. Why then should we pick one of those as more significant than another? And why should we think that the idea of "The Second Appearing" has anything to do with Rev 13? The Book of Revelation begins by telling us that it is speaking of events that were about to happen very soon back in the first century.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    I gather from a previous statement you made that you are a preterist. As for myself I don't belong to any school of thought regarding the Second Coming.
    I don't "belong" to any school of thought regard the "Second Coming" either. But I have been willing to call myself a "preterist" because that label is the closest to what I believe. But that does not mean I am a "card carrying member" of that "school of thought." For example, you appear to be a "futurist" because you beleive that Revelation contains prophecies yet to be fulfilled. But that doesn't mean that you hold to all the doctrines we typlically find in the futurist camp, such as the rebuilt temple, the antichrist dictator, the millennium, and so forth. Or maybe you do ... I don't know as yet. We haven't discussed those things.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    In fact, I spent most of my adult life as an atheist or near-atheist, with no interest in, and little understanding of Christianity and the theological debates that rage within the Christian community. As far as theology goes, that is still the case.
    I think maybe you should devote yourself to correcting that lacuna in your knowledge base. Otherwise, you may be accidentally believing things that are not really in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    I was 'trained' to find the code by means of a three-and-a-half year awakening which shattered by materialistic belief system, showed me a larger reality, led me towards a study of gematria and taught me that at least some historical events are timed in some way. I only became a Christian reluctantly, following the very obvious signs that were given me, and, although I'm very glad I took the advice of whoever is guiding me, I still have many problems with many aspects of Christian belief.
    Have you written about your experience on your site? It would be very interesting to discuss what happened to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    One advantage of not having lived my life as part of the Christian community is that I have no emotional ties to any denomination, or any eschatological beliefs or expectations.
    I am in exactly the same position. I was not raised in the church, and I have no sense of adherence to any preformed eschatological belief system. It was the last thing I studied after reviewing the entire Bible in the process of writing the Bible Wheel book. It was from that perspective of unity of the whole Bible that the preterist position became "obvious."

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    I can approach the NBC and the idea of the Second Coming fairly impartially.
    Where did you get the idea that there would be a "Second Coming." What Scriptures do you base that upon? Do you understand that Christ in the Olivet Discourse was explicitly talking about the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, and that he referenced Daniel's prophecies in that regard, and that Revelation (which explicitly states it would be fulfilled "soon" in the first century) likewise was speaking of those events?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    In fact I had no idea at first that the code concerned the Second Coming, although it seemed obvious from the start that the twin towers and the Pentagon in some way represented the beast of Revelation. It took me years to understand that 9/11 and the Pope's funeral really did represent Christ's return.
    How did it "seem obvious" that the Twin Towers and the Pentegon had anything at all to do with the beast of Revelation? Is it "obvious" to anyone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    I think that 9/11 and the Pope's funeral were created to fulfil biblical prophecy in a general sense and to satisfy the apocalyptic expectations of the Christian community. They also contain a vital message for the western capitalist democracies, pointing to the very source of our troubles: avarice and the use of force to serve that avarice. The USA is the new Rome, an evil empire, built upon greed, materialism and economic expansion. Many other countries, including the UK, where I live, follow the same model. What do most westerners, including Christians, really put their faith in? God's providence, or financial security? We worship at the altar of mammon, nearly all of us.

    A colleague of mine, who knew nothing of my work, had a dream a few years ago which she felt she should tell me. In the dream she changed bodies with a beautiful cousin, who then went to her bedroom, where her father stood. He had discovered her diary, in which she had written many hateful things about him. Her father then lashed her cousin (in her body) across the back and chopped off two of her fingers. It didn't take me long to figure out that the two fingers represented the twin towers, the lashings across her back represented the scourging and that her beautiful cousin, who entered her body to take her punishment, represented Christ, who did the same for us all. It simultaneously showed me that 9/11 represented the crucifixion and was also a 'punishment' for (really a consequence of) turning our backs on God.
    I can appreciate the symbolic nature of the dreams, but it seems like an extreme stretch to apply them to Biblical prophecies. It seems like a Rorschach test - the results are perfectly valid, but they reveal nothing beyond what was in the mind of the person being tested.

    Do you really think that the Twin Towers were all that significant? They fell into dust, and will be forgotten. It was just another tragedy in the long march of historical tragedies, but I don't see it as having anything to do with biblical prophecies. You have mentioned the materialistic nature of America, and I agree. But I think an even greater sin is our modern mindset that everything is all about us. Are we the center of the universe of God's prophecies? I would say no, not by a long shot. It looks like an moden ethnocentric egotism to place us in the center of the Biblical story.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    The night after Pope John Paul II's funeral I had a dream. I was standing with my wife at a local cemetary when a man I know walked past heading north (which in dreams generally means back to 'the source'). From the back I could see that he was wearing the Pope's mitre and was wearing white. My wife then pointed to him and said 'That's Christ lost his hands and his feet.' Of course popes bless with their hands and that particular pope travelled further than any other. Now I'm not a Roman Catholic, but it seemed to me that the dream was telling me that there was something special about this particular pope, that he was a true servant.

    On the morning of 9/11 I heard the words 'serpent power' spoken to me. It seemed obvious when the attacks occurred that the words refered to this event. Christians will usually interpret that as something demonic, but in the kabbalah, the serpent can also be the Christ. In Hebrew, both 'the messiah' and 'the serpent' have the same gematria (363, or 11 x 11 x 3). On the morning of the popes funeral, I 'saw' the words 'I begin now.' Now, if we sum the ordinal values of 'serpent power' and 'I begin now' we obtain 272, which is the ordinal value of

    Jesus Christ (o) + Second Coming (o) = 272
    I very much appreciate the value and reality of symbols in dreams. But where did you get the idea that there was going to be a "second coming" in the first place? If you have not studied what the Bible really teachings concerning the "coming" of Christ, I suspect you have just picked up on the popular misconceptions that fill the media like what we see in the "Left Behind" series and Hal Lindsey's egregiously erroneous "Late Great Planet Earth" and similar material.


    As for the identity Nachash (Serpent) = 358 = Moshiach (Messiah), that is a very profound identity that links directly to the heart and soul of the Gospel:
    John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    But I wouldn't say that the "serpent can also be the Christ." The "serpent" as a symbol is never to be identified as "Christ" - the connection is that Christ defeated the power of the serpent (its bite would kill) by being "lifted up" just as the brazen serpent was lifted up in the wilderness to overcome the death being caused by serpents. It seems like a great error to identify Christ with the serpent per se.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    This is the tip of an iceberg of information I have received, all insisting on the same message: now is the time of the Second Coming. In fact, the New Bible Code itself is part of the Second Coming, which is not the physical return of Jesus Christ, but the working out of an archetypal pattern that has great meaning for us as a species and will ensure our transition to a higher level of being.

    In Christ,

    Bill
    Well, the biggest challenge to me is that much of the "information" you have received seems like very private and personal "dreamlike" interpretations of "ink blots." Things that are "obvious" to you are not obvious to me at all. I think we will need to find the FOUNDATION that we both agree to be "obvious" and then we can build upon that.

    Many blessings to you my friend,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #25
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    Hello Richard.

    I certainly did not meant to "accuse" you of anything! I was just looking for the clearlest possible language to discuss your work. I don't understand why you would say that the "standard" and the "ordinal" don't work for numbers, since the "reduced value" of Jesus = 888 is calculated from the number 888 by adding its digits 8 + 8 + 8 = 24. In other words, the "standard value" of a number is represented as abc (base ten) then its "reduced value" is the sum of those digits. So the real question is why we should choose to use the reduced rather than the standard value in Rev 13:18. My first inclination would be to use the standard value.
    I think we're getting bogged down here. It doesn't matter what the addition system is called, just that there are two ways of including numerals when numerating summing biblical texts, and that both seem to be valid to me.

    Yes, and how many other one, two, or three word phrases sum to that same number? I don't have any exact figure, but I would guess it to be in the thousands. Why then should we pick one of those as more significant than another?
    Before you post another very long list of ordinal values, can I make two points here.

    1. Even though many English words or phrases share ordinal values, valid information could still be encoded via this system. If, to a statistically improbable degree, several words and phrases relating to a particular concept all share an ordinal value, or display a particular numerical property (say, they are all multiples of 7), that could, in principal, be evidence that they are encoded. There could be a correlation between meaning and gematria, but it would not easily be revealed by compiling lists of words with the same ordinal value. It would be more readily found by taking a thesaurus, calculating all the ordinal values (or reduced or standard) of synomyms, then checking to see if there is a clustering round a number, factor or figurate property.

    2. The ordinal value system could be used to deliver a simple coded message that is meaningful to the receiver through the words used and the ordinal value of the message. Meaning and gematria could reinforce each other. This is also independent of whether gematria itself exists or not. The words 'serpent power' and 'I begin now', could constitute such a message. Such a message could also be encoded into place names, etc. In fact, I believe that the twin towers and the Pentagon were thereby encoded.

    The Pentagon (o) = 125 = 5 cubed

    The World Trade Centre (o) = 218

    125 + 218 = 343 = 7 cubed

    So we have the cube of 7 and a fundamental structural property encoded.

    Moreover,

    The North Tower (o) + The South Tower (o) = 386

    343 + 386 = 729 = 9 cubed.

    And why should we think that the idea of "The Second Appearing" has anything to do with Rev 13? The Book of Revelation begins by telling us that it is speaking of events that were about to happen very soon back in the first century.
    History is fractal, with patterns that repeat over time and at different scales. It's possible that some prophecies refer to multiple events. I also think that there may be probable futures and that we, through our expectations and wishes, can draw certain futures towards us. So expectations of a Second Coming could create a future where one happens.

    In truth, Richard, I don't read the Bible very literally. I think it is God inspired, but not literally true in every detail. The Bible is layered like an onion (the Rabbis talk of four levels of understanding of the Torah). The upper layers contain more of man, the lower more of God. Gematria is at the deepest level and reflects the pure Mind of God.

    I don't "belong" to any school of thought regard the "Second Coming" either. But I have been willing to call myself a "preterist" because that label is the closest to what I believe. But that does not mean I am a "card carrying member" of that "school of thought."
    Fair enough. I don't like labels myself.

    I think maybe you should devote yourself to correcting that lacuna in your knowledge base. Otherwise, you may be accidentally believing things that are not really in the Bible.
    I've considered doing that. But I made the conscious decision not to read theology, in case it influenced my interpretation of the New Bible Code. I also find theology incredibly dull, as I do nearly all Christian literature...

    I suspect you have just picked up on the popular misconceptions that fill the media like what we see in the "Left Behind" series and Hal Lindsey's egregiously erroneous "Late Great Planet Earth" and similar material.
    ...including this sort of bilge, which is why I never read any of it.

    I've run out of time and energy (I work nightshift, running a homeless shelter for a Christian charity) and I must get some sleep, so I'll finish this later.

    Good chatting, as always,

    Bill
    Last edited by thebluetriangle; 12-23-2008 at 03:09 AM.

  6. #26
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    Part II...

    Have you written about your experience on your site? It would be very interesting to discuss what happened to you.
    It's not on my site, although a little of it is in my book. I'd rather stick to the subject at hand (you know how these discussions can branch out). Perhaps we could discuss it later.

    I am in exactly the same position. I was not raised in the church, and I have no sense of adherence to any preformed eschatological belief system. It was the last thing I studied after reviewing the entire Bible in the process of writing the Bible Wheel book. It was from that perspective of unity of the whole Bible that the preterist position became "obvious."
    I'll tell you what I'll do, I'll read up on preterism. Perhaps you know a good introduction on the web?

    Where did you get the idea that there would be a "Second Coming." What Scriptures do you base that upon? Do you understand that Christ in the Olivet Discourse was explicitly talking about the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, and that he referenced Daniel's prophecies in that regard, and that Revelation (which explicitly states it would be fulfilled "soon" in the first century) likewise was speaking of those events?
    First of all, I believe that the Second Coming is an event that is always happening in a sense, but has been given that label in these times for an event that was created to fill a need. My views are closer to gnosticism than anything else (although I'm not really a gnostic) and I believe that salvation is really a process of awakening to our true nature and connecting with the Christ within. In the past, the number of individuals who awakened was very few. Sometimes religions were started around them, most probably weren't noticed. But now we have reached a crisis point in our history, when we all have to 'ascend' or we with wither away as a species and destroy our world. This requires a mass awakening, which the Second Coming symbolises and will help to bring about. This awakening is best symbolised by the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. We will have to 'crucify' our lower nature (our identification with the body, materialism, selfishness, etc) and learn to be led in future by our 'higher nature' (the Holy Spirit, higher consciousness, the Christ within).

    One of many reasons I believe the New Bible Code is concerned with the Second Coming (indeed is part of that event) is the gematria of the words. For instance

    Second Coming (s) = 391
    Yehoshua (Heb.) = 391

    Second Coming (o) = 121 = 11 x 11

    This is the 5th hexagram with an internal hexagon of 61 units , leaving 60 units

    Second (o) = 60
    Coming (o) = 61

    There is much, much more to this. Please read

    http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/911.html

    Another hint was the message given me through my Alpha Course director, which I spoke of earlier, and which specifically mentions the Coming of Jesus Christ.

    How did it "seem obvious" that the Twin Towers and the Pentegon had anything at all to do with the beast of Revelation? Is it "obvious" to anyone else?
    The number 11 (representing disorganisation, disorder, disintegration, imperfection, according to Bullinger) is encoded in many, many passages that resonate with 9/11 and contain a variety of images. The Tower of Babel, sacrificial animals, the ram in Daniel 8, the beast, satan, the false prophet, the dragon, Babylon - and yes, Jesus the man before he was Christed - ultimately refer to man's lower, fear-driven, nature, and of which, in the modern age, the twin towers and the Pentagon were archetypal symbols.

    In March 2002 while thinking about what the code meant, I received a powerful image of two words, which was so bright I could see it with my eyes open:

    ARMS AVARICE

    This is saturated with the number 11 (ov of 110, 11 letters AA gives 11) and the two words (itself meaningful) have ovs of 51 (demon) and 59 (dragon).

    They also refer, I believe, to the Pentagon (arms) and the twin towers (avarice), and what they represented.

    I can appreciate the symbolic nature of the dreams, but it seems like an extreme stretch to apply them to Biblical prophecies. It seems like a Rorschach test - the results are perfectly valid, but they reveal nothing beyond what was in the mind of the person being tested.
    I believe that some dreams can be revelations from God. One of the dreams was had by a colleague, who knew nothing about the code. It had to have come from an outside source. If Jung is correct, the dream could have come from the collective unconscious. In that sense, you would be correct: the dream came from Mind - but not from her personal unconscious. I have many examples of people around me having dreams that were directly related to my work. That was just one of them. Believe me, I don't think I'm important. But what I have to say is important.

    You have mentioned the materialistic nature of America, and I agree. But I think an even greater sin is our modern mindset that everything is all about us. Are we the center of the universe of God's prophecies? I would say no, not by a long shot. It looks like an moden ethnocentric egotism to place us in the center of the Biblical story.
    9/11 was of course a terrible, evil event (although m the time the towers fell, three times that many people had died of hunger that day) but the significance was and is symbolic and has had a huge impact on our collective psyche. You could call it a covenant of circumcision.

    Again, I've run out of time. But there's more to say here.

    Bill

  7. #27
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    A very Merry Christmas to everyone on the forum!

    Now, back to business...

    You have mentioned the materialistic nature of America, and I agree. But I think an even greater sin is our modern mindset that everything is all about us. Are we the center of the universe of God's prophecies? I would say no, not by a long shot. It looks like an moden ethnocentric egotism to place us in the center of the Biblical story.
    It's not ethnocentrism to place the USA at the centre of the world strage: your economic, cultural and military prominence in the world is simply a fact. If something like 9/11 had taken place in a minor city in Namibia, nobody would have noticed. The USA was chosen as the 'altar of burnt offering' because it is, in worldly terms, an altar - a Mecca, if you like - for many, many people. In front of the entire world, the tower of Babel was dismantled, the bull was castrated, the beast destroyed.

    But I wouldn't say that the "serpent can also be the Christ." The "serpent" as a symbol is never to be identified as "Christ" - the connection is that Christ defeated the power of the serpent (its bite would kill) by being "lifted up" just as the brazen serpent was lifted up in the wilderness to overcome the death being caused by serpents. It seems like a great error to identify Christ with the serpent per se.
    In a special sense, there is an identity between the serpent and the Christ. Here is an article by Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain, a kabbalist, on the scriptural passage you quote.

    http://www.donmeh-west.com/rodofaaron.shtml

    Here is an excerpt from the article

    "Aaron threw down his staff in front of Pharaoh and his court, and it turned into a serpent . Then Pharaoh in his turn called on the sages and sorcerers, and with their witchcraft the magicians of Egypt did the same. Each threw his staff down and these turned into serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up the staffs of the magicians." (Exodus 7:10)

    How are we to understand this? How can one serpent be holy while others are not? Surely God cursed all Serpents when He said to the first of them in Eden, "You are cursed above . . . . every beast of the field." (Genesis 3:14) But notice He curses Nachash (the Serpent) specifically above the "beasts of the field": (in the original Hebrew text, chaiotim hashadeh) and not among the more generic "creatures" (Hebrew = itzirim). Why does this make a difference? Because, according to Kabbalah, Chaiotim ("Beasts of the Field") is a hermeneutic code word for the descendants of the first of two Adams, whom God blessed (Genesis 1:28) but in whom He did not "breathe into his nostrils a breath of life [i.e., soul]" as He did with the second (Genesis 2:7). As the Zohar states:

    "Alas for the stupidity and blindness of men who do not perceive the mysteries of the Torah, and do not know that by 'the beasts of the field' are designated the unlearned [i.e., soul-less ones]." (Zohar 1:28a)

    Moreover, the Zohar tells us, not only Adam, but also the Serpent -- who, until he was cursed by God to "crawl on his belly," walked on two legs like any other man (Rashi, Genesis 1:14) and "desired the woman" (ibid 3:1) -- had sexual intercourse with Eve:

    "The Beasts of the Field are the offspring of the original Serpent who had sexual intercourse with Eve . . . From them came forth Cain who killed Abel. From Cain was descended Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses, as it is written, 'And the sons of the Kenite, the father-in-law of Moses' (Jud. 1, 16), and according to tradition he was called Kenite because he originated from Cain." (Zohar 1:28b)

    Thus, Yahweh curses the Serpent "above all beasts of the field," meaning the descendants of Cain who carry the "seed of the Serpent." And it was from the descendants of Cain's mixed seed that Ham was born; and Ham was cursed by God, as had been his forefather, the Serpent of Eden, before him (Genesis 9:25); and among Ham's sons was Mitzraim (Genesis 10:6), the founder of the Land of Egypt which is called in Hebrew, Eretz Mitzraim, whose King, the Pharaoh, wore a Crown of Serpents upon his head to denote his descent from Nachash, the Serpent of Eden who had intercourse with Eve.

    So it was that Aaron's Rod "turned into a Serpent" that "swallowed up the serpents" of Pharaoh's magicians. Aaron's rod was a new rod, given to him by Yahweh (Exodus 7:9), but Pharaoh's rod was the old rod, given to him by Nachash, the Serpent of Eden, whom Pharaoh wore for a crown on his head.

    This second rod, the Rod of Aaron, by which the Rod of Pharaoh was defeated, is that to which Scripture refers when it states, "Thy rod and staff they comfort me." (Psalms 23:4); it is the Rod referred to by the Prophet Isaiah when he proclaimed: "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse" (Isaiah 11:1); which is to say, it is the Moshiach (Messiah), the Anointed One of Israel -- the Rod who is also a Serpent (remembering that the Hebrew words "Messiah" and "Serpent" have the same Gematria) -- the Rod that is also the rod on which Moses erected a "Serpent" in the desert upon which all who "looked" were "healed" (Numbers 21:8).
    Well, the biggest challenge to me is that much of the "information" you have received seems like very private and personal "dreamlike" interpretations of "ink blots." Things that are "obvious" to you are not obvious to me at all. I think we will need to find the FOUNDATION that we both agree to be "obvious" and then we can build upon that.
    My own experience has led me to the conviction that at least some dreams contain revelatory material; ie, information from beyond the personal unconscious. The Bible is full of such dreams. Do you regard these as mere inkblots?

    Again, the compliments of the season to you.

    Bill

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post

    Before you post another very long list of ordinal values, can I make two points here.

    1. Even though many English words or phrases share ordinal values, valid information could still be encoded via this system. If, to a statistically improbable degree, several words and phrases relating to a particular concept all share an ordinal value, or display a particular numerical property (say, they are all multiples of 7), that could, in principal, be evidence that they are encoded. There could be a correlation between meaning and gematria, but it would not easily be revealed by compiling lists of words with the same ordinal value. It would be more readily found by taking a thesaurus, calculating all the ordinal values (or reduced or standard) of synomyms, then checking to see if there is a clustering round a number, factor or figurate property.
    Hi Bill,

    I don't feel a need to post long lists of ordinal values, since we all understand that fact. And since that fact is understood, I would think that we could agree that the calculations you suggested in the red text are very difficult to evaluate with any degree of certainty. But even if we could show something was statistically improbable, most folks would probably be left with a sense that the results are not really meaningful if they can be discerned only through abstract calcuations that are not in themselves "self-evident." There are just too many possibilities. The ocean of numbers allows for essentially limitless sets of correlated words and phrases that could fit with almost any theme imaginable. This is why I say that the whole exercise "looks like" a Roschach Test that reveals only what was in the mind of the observer.

    It seems to me that your theme of the "second coming" is a good example of that. Suppose every person in the world was given a Bible and the table of English Gematria and a computer to examine the text. How many of them would independentally arrive at the same conclusions? I would think the percentage would be on the order of 0.00001% at best. Now conduct the same experiment with the Hebrew text of Genesis 1:1-5 and John 1:1-5. How many folks would discover the structures of the Creation Holograph? Given enough time (and mathematical training) I would say that close to 100% would arrive at the same results just as all scientists everywhere arrive at the same laws of nature and the same values of the fundamental constants like gravity, charge of an electron, and so forth. The reason for this is simple - the structures of the holographs are derived from the inherent alphanumeric structure of the text itself. This is entirely different than your project which associates a set of self-chosen words like "Second Coming" and "Twin Towers" with the text. Since each person would be free to pick their own set of associated words, and the sets to choose from as so large, it is very unlikely that they would "just happen" to pick the same sets.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    2. The ordinal value system could be used to deliver a simple coded message that is meaningful to the receiver through the words used and the ordinal value of the message. Meaning and gematria could reinforce each other. This is also independent of whether gematria itself exists or not. The words 'serpent power' and 'I begin now', could constitute such a message. Such a message could also be encoded into place names, etc. In fact, I believe that the twin towers and the Pentagon were thereby encoded.

    The Pentagon (o) = 125 = 5 cubed

    The World Trade Centre (o) = 218

    125 + 218 = 343 = 7 cubed

    So we have the cube of 7 and a fundamental structural property encoded.

    Moreover,

    The North Tower (o) + The South Tower (o) = 386

    343 + 386 = 729 = 9 cubed.
    I grant that "The Pentagon" = 125 is striking in and of itself, but that identity existed before there was a building called "The Pentagon" and so the fundamental meaning (if any) would seem to refer to the abstract geometric object we call "The Pentagon." But is there any consistency here? What do we get when we try other geometric forms? I checked a few an found nothing that seemed significant. The meaning of this single "coincidence" seems dimished if it is just one identity picked from many that don't fit the pattern.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    History is fractal, with patterns that repeat over time and at different scales. It's possible that some prophecies refer to multiple events. I also think that there may be probable futures and that we, through our expectations and wishes, can draw certain futures towards us. So expectations of a Second Coming could create a future where one happens.
    Those are very interesting ideas. But I don't understand what you mean by "Second Coming." If you didn't get that idea from the Bible, and you didn't get it from pop-prophecy literature like "Left Behind" - where did you get it from and what does it mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    In truth, Richard, I don't read the Bible very literally. I think it is God inspired, but not literally true in every detail. The Bible is layered like an onion (the Rabbis talk of four levels of understanding of the Torah). The upper layers contain more of man, the lower more of God. Gematria is at the deepest level and reflects the pure Mind of God.
    I agree absolutely with the multilayered nature of Scripture. But if we forget that the bottom of that massive "pyramid of meaning" is founded on the rock foundation of Reality, then we have lost it all. One of the most amazing things about the Bible is that it is grounded in real history of real people that really lived and really fulfilled real prophecies, the greatest of which was the Coming of Christ. If you do not take the historically fulfilled prophecies as "literal" why then would you think that the "layered" prophecies are speaking of recent very literal events like the Twin Towers? That seems very inconsistent to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    I think maybe you should devote yourself to correcting that lacuna in your knowledge base. Otherwise, you may be accidentally believing things that are not really in the Bible.
    I've considered doing that. But I made the conscious decision not to read theology, in case it influenced my interpretation of the New Bible Code. I also find theology incredibly dull, as I do nearly all Christian literature...

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    I suspect you have just picked up on the popular misconceptions that fill the media like what we see in the "Left Behind" series and Hal Lindsey's egregiously erroneous "Late Great Planet Earth" and similar material.
    ...including this sort of bilge, which is why I never read any of it.
    I agree that much Christian theology and literature is exceedingly dull because many authors have sacrificed their hearts and minds on the altar of dogma. That makes for very dull reading indeed. But by choosing to avoid theology you have fallen into the twin trap of ignorance. It is obvious you have many ideas about what the Bible really means (such as "Second Coming") but as yet you have given no foundation for that belief. It appears to be something you just "assume" to be "meaningful" when in fact you do not have any real understanding of the origin or validity of that idea or even the wide variety of its interpretations. Without a proper definition and foundation in Scritpure, the idea seems to be little but an empty slogan without any substance.

    As always, it is good to be chatting,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    A very Merry Christmas to everyone on the forum!
    Thank you my friend! I trust you had a Merry Christmas too.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Now, back to business...

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    You have mentioned the materialistic nature of America, and I agree. But I think an even greater sin is our modern mindset that everything is all about us. Are we the center of the universe of God's prophecies? I would say no, not by a long shot. It looks like an moden ethnocentric egotism to place us in the center of the Biblical story.
    It's not ethnocentrism to place the USA at the centre of the world strage: your economic, cultural and military prominence in the world is simply a fact. If something like 9/11 had taken place in a minor city in Namibia, nobody would have noticed. The USA was chosen as the 'altar of burnt offering' because it is, in worldly terms, an altar - a Mecca, if you like - for many, many people. In front of the entire world, the tower of Babel was dismantled, the bull was castrated, the beast destroyed.
    I agree that the USA is the "center" of the world stage at this present time (and for last century or so) - but what is a hundred years in God's plan? What about the Roman empire that ruled over the entire world in the days of Christ? How can you ignore it as the "center" of Biblical prophecy? The simple fact is that "USA" is never mentioned in Scripture, whereas Rome plays a prominent role.

    Your reference to "altar of burnt offering" doesn't make any sense to me. In the Bible, the altar was in the Temple, and was devoted to sacrifices to God. What does the USA have to do with that idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    But I wouldn't say that the "serpent can also be the Christ." The "serpent" as a symbol is never to be identified as "Christ" - the connection is that Christ defeated the power of the serpent (its bite would kill) by being "lifted up" just as the brazen serpent was lifted up in the wilderness to overcome the death being caused by serpents. It seems like a great error to identify Christ with the serpent per se.
    In a special sense, there is an identity between the serpent and the Christ. Here is an article by Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain, a kabbalist, on the scriptural passage you quote.

    http://www.donmeh-west.com/rodofaaron.shtml

    Here is an excerpt from the article
    Thanks for the article. It was very interesting, but it would take us too far afield to discuss right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Well, the biggest challenge to me is that much of the "information" you have received seems like very private and personal "dreamlike" interpretations of "ink blots." Things that are "obvious" to you are not obvious to me at all. I think we will need to find the FOUNDATION that we both agree to be "obvious" and then we can build upon that.
    My own experience has led me to the conviction that at least some dreams contain revelatory material; ie, information from beyond the personal unconscious. The Bible is full of such dreams. Do you regard these as mere inkblots?
    I agree completely that people can receive real revalatory knowledge through dreams. We see that a lot in Scripture, and it has happened to me. I have no reason to doubt it has happened to you too. But that's not what we have been talking about. Our conversation has been about the alphanumeric patterns you have found using English Gematria and the NIV. The "inkblots" refers to the oceanic collage of numbers and words that you have used as a pallette to paint your picture. I know that you have had many dreams and synchronistic experiences that have led you to make many of this links, and so they are very meaningful to you. But that also means that they are very idiosyncratic since the meaning comes primarily from your personal experience. The patterns themselves can not be derived from the text. You have to pick and choose words and phrases like "Second Coming" and "Twin Towers" out of a very large set of possibilities. Other people would not make the same connections, so they seem personal, subjective, arbitrary, and idiosyncratic.

    All the best my friend,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #30
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    A Guid New Year to everyone on the forum!

    I agree that the USA is the "center" of the world stage at this present time (and for last century or so) - but what is a hundred years in God's plan? What about the Roman empire that ruled over the entire world in the days of Christ? How can you ignore it as the "center" of Biblical prophecy? The simple fact is that "USA" is never mentioned in Scripture, whereas Rome plays a prominent role.
    The USA is the new Rome and has created an empire as evil as Rome ever was. As I said before, I think that prophecies can refer to multiple events and periods. However, we now stand at a critical moment in history, when we are collectively deciding whether we want to survive as a species or die. If we do want to survive, we will have to overcome our fear-driven 'hindbrain mentality - once a necessary aid to survival, now the cause of most of our problems - and learn to be led by our forebrain, developing the higher faculties that seem to be connected with it. This will be a very, very difficult process, akin to a rebirth. For this reason, among others, I believe that biblical prophecies primarily refer to the current age. Now is when the higher view they provide is needed. This is also why 'bible codes' are now being found. Their discovery and dissemination are part of the awakening process.

    The USA is never specifically mentioned in Scripture for the same reasons bicycles are never mentioned; nobody would have understood what the words meant. Prophecies were written in the language of the time, using images that would be understood by people of the time, including the prophets. For instance, Daniel's prophecy of the Ram whose horns were shattered by a flying goat is, I believe, a prophecy of 9/11.

    1 In the third year of King Belshazzar's reign, I, Daniel, had a vision, after the one that had already appeared to me. 2 In my vision I saw myself in the citadel of Susa in the province of Elam; in the vision I was beside the Ulai Canal. 3 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later. 4 I watched the ram as he charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against him, and none could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great.

    5 As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between his eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. 6 He came toward the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at him in great rage. 7 I saw him attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering his two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against him; the goat knocked him to the ground and trampled on him, and none could rescue the ram from his power.
    The Ram is the WTC/New York/US imperialism. The horns were the twin towers and also represented the idea of division, opposition, duality, etc. The flying goat is the airplanes that destroyed the towers and also embodies the same idea of division and opposition.

    The gematria is interesting here.

    3. I looked up and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later. 4. I watched the ram as he charged towards the west and the north and the south. he did as he pleased and became great.

    Ordinal value verses 3 and 4 = 3102 = 11 x 282

    So the verse appears to be watermarked with the key number 11, representing disorder, disintegration, imperfection, according to Bullinger.

    Verses 5, 6 and 7 are a devastatingly accurate account of the attacks themselves.

    5. As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between his eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. 6. He came towards the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at him in great rage. 7. I saw him attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering his two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against him; the goat knocked him to the ground and trampled on him, and none could rescue the ram from his power.

    Gematria verses 5, 6 and 7 = 4555 = 911 x 5

    And the gematria is equally devastating!

    Here we have three verses giving a staggeringly accurate description of the 9/11 attacks—the goat with a single horn, which flies over the whole earth without touching the ground, is a perfect description, in a preindustrial age, of an airplane—and their gematria ‘just happens’ to be a multiple of 911.

    Your reference to "altar of burnt offering" doesn't make any sense to me. In the Bible, the altar was in the Temple, and was devoted to sacrifices to God. What does the USA have to do with that idea?
    Symbolically it was the altar on which the 'burnt offering' was made. Exodus 27 and 38, which describe the instructions for the preparation of the altar, and its actual preparation, are the Bible's 77th and 88th. Like many other passages symbolically linked to 9/11, they are earmarked with the number 11, as was the event itself (the date, flight 11, the towers shape, the 110 storeys etc, etc, etc). The number 11 is the twin thread linking 9/11 with biblical prophecy.

    I'm going to have to get ready to see in the New Year now, in a seasonally frosty Scotland (23 farenheit as I speak and going down), so you'll have to wait until until next year for the rest of my reply!

    Again, a Guid New Year to ye a'!

    Bill

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