Google Ads

Google Ads

Bible Wheel Book

Google Ads

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 8 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 72
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146

    William Downie (www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk)

    William Downie is a very intelligent man who has discovered what he believes to be patterns of English Gematria in the New International Version of the Bible. His presentation is very lucid and well done. Here is an introductory email that he recently sent to me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Downie
    Hello everyone.

    I was offline for a while after my computer crashed. However, I'm up and running again and have just completed two new web pages.

    The first shows how the three numbers obtained by numerating the name 'Jesus Christ' via three important systems of English gematria can all be represented by numerical snowflakes based upon hexagon 19 and hexagram 37. If you're interested, here's the link:

    http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/christssnowflakes1.html

    I've also recently put up a page showing how numbers proclaiming Christ's Second Coming are found bookending each testament in the NIV. It's at

    http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/thesecondcoming.html

    Any feedback would be most welcome.

    In Christ,

    Bill
    Here is how I responded:

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM

    Hi Bill,

    I was wondering if you have found any way to discern between chance and design in the numerical structures you are exploring? In my study, the key has been the reiterative self-similarity over scale, which is what I call “holographic.” When I look at your results, they look like chance because the patterns are found in sentence fragments that don’t make sense by themselves and there is no overarching unifying structure.

    All the best,

    Richard
    Bill then responded with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by William Downie
    Hi Richard.

    Thanks for at least looking at my work.

    I'm not sure it's wise to bring your preconceptions to a study of the New Bible Code. God, I'm sure you will agree, could encode material in many different ways. Indeed the purpose of the NBC is, as far as I can discern, rather different from the Biblewhel. It proclaims a single message, with almost alarming insistency: now is the time of the second coming. The sign and seal of this event is a fractal snowflake (the second iteration of a Koch antisnowflake, starting with a hexagon), which I call the Creation snowflake. Your own 'logos star' is contained within it. The numerical connections between the snowflake and the Trinity, mediated through the standard, ordinal and reduced value systems of gematria, are beyond chance: I worked out a binomial probability of about 1 in 54 million against a chance occurrence. Three numbers defining the snowflake are encoded in the opening words of the NIV Bible, in a way that integrates with the numerical signatures I call the Signatures of Christ. These are eight numerical 'signatures' all encoded within the first twenty-four words of the NIV.

    The signatures themselves are encoded in an extremely ordered way, in strings of six or twelve words, formed by splitting the opening twenty-four words of the NIV into four strings of six words. The number six is therefore encoded along with the signatures and must be a reference to the six days of Creation, with which the opening words are concerned! This confluence of meaningfully-related numbers and high degree of ordering speaks of intelligent design, rather than random action. Have you looked at this phenomenon?

    http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/signature.html

    The number 24 is itself the reduced value of the Greek word Ihsous. There is self-similarity at different scales here too. If the 8th, 16th and 24th letters of the NIV are identified, these are G,O,D. These form a little ELS encoding with a skip interval of 8. A cross is formed with the first 'God' in the plaintext. At a skip interval of 29 (reduced value of 'Messiah') the word CODE joins with GOD CREATED in the first verse.

    At a larger scale there is further self-similarity. The numbers 888 (Ihsous) and 391 (Yehoshua) are fundamental to the code and sum to 1279, the number of units in the Creation snowflake (both numbers can also be rendered as snowflakes within the Creation snowflake, as a new page will show). 391 is encoded as one of the signatures of Christ and over the last nine words of the NV. 888 is the sum of the ordinal values of the first and last verses of the NIV:

    http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/fromthebeginning.html

    At a larger scale, these numbers are encoded in the book of Amos, crossing each other at Amos 9, the first verse of which is reminiscent of 9/11:

    http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/911amos.html

    They also appear in Genesis in the genealogical lists:

    http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/genesisgenealogies.html

    So 888 appears to be encoded at letter level, word level, verse level and chapter level. Is that not a kind of self-similarity?

    An encoding of he name of the Pope whose funeral represented Christ's resurrection is also found by trisecting the NIV's first 24 words and summing the first 16, then the first 24 words. These ordinal values are the standard values of 'Pope John Paul II' and 'Pope John Paul The Second'. So this encoding also references 888.

    The ordinal-to-standard value phenomenon is unique to the NBC, another difference between my diuscoveries and your own. However it is consistent across the Bible. You will have noted that I am working with the same three systems of numeration you yourself use, but applied mainly to English (I also use a fourth system, but regard it as tentative at best).

    One fundamental difference between the New Bible Code and your own discoveries is that the NIV is a translation and the encoded material had to be overlain upon what was already present. This, along with the necessity for the plaintext words to read well, might accont for some of the differences between our respective findings. I am in no doubt that the NBC is just as miraculous as the Biblewheel and every bit as significant. I have to believe in my work, because I was given the task of finding it by the most astounding series of synchronous events and one apparent miracle, involving 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, which appeared on a slip of paper belonging to my Alpha course director, and which an inner voice twice told her was for me. These verses were the key to unlocking the NBC, because they showed me how to extract the numbers from the text. Verse 23 has an ordinal value of 1559, the standard value of 'Our Lord Jesus Christ'. Verse 24 has an ordinal value of 468, standard value of 'The Lord God'. There are other numbers there too, and a reference to Christ's second coming.

    Richard, I would respectfully ask two things of you. I notice that you have a forum. Why don't you open a thread on my work. You state your position, I'll answer and we'll take it from there. Secondly, why don't you take the question of the validity of my work to God in prayer?

    Yours in Christ,

    Bill
    And here is my response:

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Hey there Bill,


    It is good to be chatting. I hope you don’t take my response as any form of disrespect for your findings. I was only letting you know how things seemed to me in all honesty. Your presentation is brilliant. You have done a great job explaining it. But that doesn’t mean I agree with the results. But regardless, I am very happy to discuss it with you, and change my mind if the evidence is compelling.


    I agree that it’s not wise to bring my preconceptions to the study of the Bible. But it is important to remember that this advice applies to both of us. The idea that we are living in the “end times” is a prime example of that. It seems to me that the Bible makes it exceeedingly and abundantly clear that the “end times” happened in the first century, and were consummated in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD. The mere fact that the phrases “Second Coming” and “The Second Coming” happen to have numerical values that fit with the patterns you found does not seem at all significant because those phrases are not found in the text that you analysed and there are ten thousand other phrases that have the same numerical value, and the division of the NIV text is fragmentary so it doesn’t seem to have been designed by an infinitely wise God. I also have trouble with the NIV in general, since it is infected with false theological ideas as when they translated the Greek “sarx” (flesh) as “sin nature.” That is an outrageous infusion of a theological preconception into the translation, which I consider a “high crime” for any translation. But this does not mean that God could not have had a hand in the design of that translation. It is not a simple matter.


    Now as for the ordered structure of the “signature” – I agree that it looks impressive, but the big question is if there is any way to discern between chance and design. That is my “$64,000 question.”


    I think your suggestion that we discuss this in my forum is a great idea. Would you like me to start a thread with the message below, or would you like to write another introductory post yourself? Have you registered? If not, please do. It will then take a few minutes for me to validate your registration, and then we can begin the discussion. One thing I can promise is that I will discuss your work with complete respect – seeking only a better understanding of the Truth.


    Many blessings to you my friend.


    Richard

    So this is where our converstation currently stands. I encourage anyone interested to post their comments and questions. Bill's user name is thebluetriangle.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    230

    The New Bible Code: A Short Summary

    Hi Richard,

    I'd like to start by congratulting you on a magnificent website and a very fine body of work, which I have long admired. In revealing the stunning truth about the holographic nature of the Bible you are serving our Lord in a very powerful way.

    Thanks for your compliments on my presentation; that means a lot to me. I hope that eventually you will equally convinced about the validity of my discoveries.

    Your last email raised some interesting questions. I'm going to attempt an answer to one of them, about the way to discern between chance and design. After that I will try to summarise the New Bible Code for the benefit of anyone who may be interested.

    The English language has a huge vocabulary, so that any numerical value obtained will apply to a range of words. With phrases there are even more possibilites. So, assuming there is a numerical code in the NIV, how do we know which word a numerical value is meant to represent? First of all, I think the phenomenon of confluence comes to our aid. For example, I claim there are eight numerical signatures, all within the first 24 words of the NIV, all of which are standard values of names by which we know Jesus. The numbers are

    515 (Jesus), 654 (Word), 263 (Messiah), 391 (Yehoshua-Heb.)

    654 appears three times, 515 and 263 appear twice.

    This is a high concentration of numerical values, which is statistically improbable. But we're not there yet.
    The standard value system gives large numerical values, which are shared by relatively few words, compared to the ordinal and reduced value systems. This is some guarantee against confusion over which words we are meant to find. However, there is still some doubt: a test carried out last year showed that about 1 in 1000 words share with 'Jesus' a standard value of 515, for instance. So how can we be sure that the signatures are genuine? The key is meaning.

    Firstly, the words 'Jesus', 'Messiah', 'Word' and 'Yehoshua' are meaningfully related. Secondly, Jesus is meaningfully related to the Bible itslf, where the signatures are found. Thirdly, the particular location where the signatures are found (the NIV Bible's opening words, no less) concerns God's creation of heaven and earth. Jesus is God Incarnate.

    I predict that it would be impossible to find a group of words with those standard values that are as meaningfully related to each other, to the Bible and to that passage as the signatures of Christ.

    Another consideration is the fact that the signatures are found over the first 24 words (reduced value of Ihsous) and over 6-or 12-word strings, formed by quadrisecting those 24 words. The number 6 is again meaningfully related to the Creation story. In addition, the Creation snowflake, a six-sided fractal, is integrated with the encodings. And there is much more here. It all stands or falls together.

    This post is getting quite long, so I'll leave it there and summarise the New Bible Code later today.

    Bill
    Last edited by thebluetriangle; 12-18-2008 at 02:15 AM. Reason: clarity

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    230

    The New Bible Code: A Brief Introduction

    As promised, here is a short summary of the New Bible Code (NBC) for the benefit of forum members.

    The NBC is an alphanumerical code carried principally within the English language NIV Bible (2001 edition, British text), but also within our wider culture, particularly the details of two recent events of worldwide impact: 9/11 and the funeral of Pope John Paul II.

    These events were, in the largest sense, staged dramas, representing the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Taken together, these two events represented, and were manifestations of, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

    Although the numbers killed that day were relatively small, 9/11 had enormous impact on the collective psyche of humanity and thus was the single most important event in recent history, as it was designed to be. Many biblical narratives and prophecies, such as

    the Tower of Babel (Gen (11)
    Abraham's sacrifice of a ram in lieu of Isaac (Gen. 22)
    The Altar of Burnt offering (Exodus)
    Daniel's prophecy of the goat shattering the ram's horns (Daniel 8)
    Jesus overtuurning the tables of the moneychangers (Mark 11)
    Jesus cursing the fig tree (Mark 11)
    Jesus rubbing mud into the blind man's eyes (John 9)
    Jesus washing his disciple's feet (John 13)
    the Crucifixion of Jesus (Luke 23)
    the two witnesses (Rev. 11)
    the destruction of the beast and false prophet (Rev. 19)
    the fall of Babylon (Rev. 18)

    and many more, resonate with 9/11 and could be said to prophesy it in some sense. The details of the events that day are encoded within the names give to the twin towers (the very horns of the beast) and the Pentagon building and within other significant numbers.

    Three-and-a-half years after 9/11 was the funeral of Pope John Paul II, perhaps the most successful Pope in history. His name is encoded within the NIV Bible's first 24 words, alongside the Signatures of Christ. The funeral itself could not have more clearly symbolised Christ's Resurrection, the Pope being Christ's representative on earth to Catholics and the Catholic funeral liturgy being concerned principally with Christ's Resurrection.

    One example of the exquisite timing of these events is as follows: 9/11 took place on the 254th day of the new millenium, the Pope's funeral took place on the 1559th day. Now look at the ordinal and standard values of this title.

    Our Lord Jesus Christ (o) = 254
    Our Lord Jesus Christ (s) = 1559

    The ordinal and standard value systems are used in a particular way in the NBC. Numbers in the text are nearly always encoded as ordinal values and take on meaning as standard values. This dual system holds true from beginning to end of the NIV, made it easier for the Encoder to place the cyphertext (using the ordinal value system meant that there was less of a skip from number to number), negates the possibility of any bleedthrough of information from the plaintext to the cyphertext, and, because of the large numerical values, guarantees much less possibility of confusion about which word or phrase a number represents, than would be the case for the ordinal value system alone.

    One beautiful feature of the code is the placing of a kind of watermark at the beginning of the NIV. This is a holographic matrix of encoded numbers that appears to be almost inexhaustable and has so far yielded the Signatures of Christ, the Creation Snowflake and several other encodings, some of which are ELS encodings. The Creation Snowflake in particular is the sign and seal of the New Bible Code, a kind of divine mandala, symbolising Christ's Second Coming.

    In Christ,

    Bill

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146
    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Hi Richard,

    I'd like to start by congratulting you on a magnificent website and a very fine body of work, which I have long admired. In revealing the stunning truth about the holographic nature of the Bible you are serving our Lord in a very powerful way.

    Thanks for your compliments on my presentation; that means a lot to me. I hope that eventually you will equally convinced about the validity of my discoveries.
    Welcome to the forum Bill!



    Thank you for your kind words regarding my work. I look forward to discussing yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Your last email raised some interesting questions. I'm going to attempt an answer to one of them, about the way to discern between chance and design. After that I will try to summarise the New Bible Code for the benefit of anyone who may be interested.

    The English language has a huge vocabulary, so that any numerical value obtained will apply to a range of words. With phrases there are even more possibilites. So, assuming there is a numerical code in the NIV, how do we know which word a numerical value is meant to represent? First of all, I think the phenomenon of confluence comes to our aid. For example, I claim there are eight numerical signatures, all within the first 24 words of the NIV, all of which are standard values of names by which we know Jesus. The numbers are

    515 (Jesus), 654 (Word), 263 (Messiah), 391 (Yehoshua-Heb.)

    654 appears three times, 515 and 263 appear twice.

    This is a high concentration of numerical values, which is statistically improbable. But we're not there yet.
    The standard value system gives large numerical values, which are shared by relatively few words, compared to the ordinal and reduced value systems. This is some guarantee against confusion over which words we are meant to find. However, there is still some doubt: a test carried out last year showed that about 1 in 1000 words share with 'Jesus' a standard value of 515, for instance. So how can we be sure that the signatures are genuine? The key is meaning.

    Firstly, the words 'Jesus', 'Messiah', 'Word' and 'Yehoshua' are meaningfully related. Secondly, Jesus is meaningfully related to the Bible itslf, where the signatures are found. Thirdly, the particular location where the signatures are found (the NIV Bible's opening words, no less) concerns God's creation of heaven and earth. Jesus is God Incarnate.

    I predict that it would be impossible to find a group of words with those standard values that are as meaningfully related to each other, to the Bible and to that passage as the signatures of Christ.

    Another consideration is the fact that the signatures are found over the first 24 words (reduced value of Ihsous) and over 6-or 12-word strings, formed by quadrisecting those 24 words. The number 6 is again meaningfully related to the Creation story. In addition, the Creation snowflake, a six-sided fractal, is integrated with the encodings. And there is much more here. It all stands or falls together.

    This post is getting quite long, so I'll leave it there and summarise the New Bible Code later today.

    Bill
    I agree that "confluence" is a good test. It is not conclusive in and of itself, but it certainly points in the right direction. Also, the symmetrical division of the first 24 words is significant in that symmetric patterns are much more rare than non-symmetric patterns. But on the down side we have the fact that the text is divided into fragments that do not follow the natural grammar or syntax of the verse as seen in this image from your site:



    For the folks who haven't read you website yet, I will present your table of English Gematria:



    This table follows the same pattern as the well established Greek and Hebrew gematriot. But I have a little resistance accepting it because it is a novel 20th century invention and has no historical support. But the proof will be in the pudding it produces.

    I wrote a quick little program to confirm your results, and I found that the numbers are all correct, so Stage 1 of my review is complete and affirms your work. But in the process I noticed that you used the Ordinal values for the NIV text and compared these with the Standard values of "Jesus" and "Word." The results are correct, of course, but it makes discernment between chance and design more difficult. Here are both values for the first 24 words that you analysed:

    In the beginning God created the = 252 (O), 1053 (S)
    heavens and the earth. Now the = 263 (O), 1964 (S)
    earth was formless and empty, darkness = 391 (O), 2776 (S)
    was over the surface of the = 263 (O), 2153 (S)

    Have you found any patterns in Standard values of the NIV text of Genesis?

    As you can see, the Standard values do not show the same repeated pattern of two occurrences of 263. This exemplifies the problem of English Gematria based on Ordinal Values. I have discussed this a lot in other threads. The Ordinal Values compress the numbers into a very narrow range, so that the vast majority of words all fall within a range between 50 and 150:



    Thus we would expect the ordinal values of "six word" phrases to also be collapsed into a narrow range. I wrote another quick little program to see what sort of range we get with six word English phrases. I analyzed the first 30 chapters of Genesis. Here is the graph of the results:



    The smallest value is 121, and the largest is 504. The vast majority are centered on the numbers you found in the opening passage of Genesis 1 which are the most likely values we would expect to find in a random distribution of six-word phrases.

    I present these results so we can have a basic orientation as to what to expect by random chance. It's just the first step in reviewing your findings.

    Richard

    PS: Have you done any analysis of John 1:1? Does it integrate with Gen 1:1?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146
    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    The English language has a huge vocabulary, so that any numerical value obtained will apply to a range of words. With phrases there are even more possibilites. So, assuming there is a numerical code in the NIV, how do we know which word a numerical value is meant to represent? First of all, I think the phenomenon of confluence comes to our aid. For example, I claim there are eight numerical signatures, all within the first 24 words of the NIV, all of which are standard values of names by which we know Jesus. The numbers are

    515 (Jesus), 654 (Word), 263 (Messiah), 391 (Yehoshua-Heb.)

    654 appears three times, 515 and 263 appear twice.

    This is a high concentration of numerical values, which is statistically improbable. But we're not there yet.
    Hey there Bill,

    I would like to discuss the question of whether or not it is "statistically improbable" to find these numbers together. As noted in my previous post, the numbers 252 and 263, which account for three of the four phrases you analyzed, reside in the center of the distribution of random six-word phrases, and so are - by definition - statistically "likely."

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    The standard value system gives large numerical values, which are shared by relatively few words, compared to the ordinal and reduced value systems. This is some guarantee against confusion over which words we are meant to find. However, there is still some doubt: a test carried out last year showed that about 1 in 1000 words share with 'Jesus' a standard value of 515, for instance. So how can we be sure that the signatures are genuine? The key is meaning.

    Firstly, the words 'Jesus', 'Messiah', 'Word' and 'Yehoshua' are meaningfully related. Secondly, Jesus is meaningfully related to the Bible itslf, where the signatures are found. Thirdly, the particular location where the signatures are found (the NIV Bible's opening words, no less) concerns God's creation of heaven and earth. Jesus is God Incarnate.
    The challenge here is that other words have the same meaning. For example, we could have used "Christ" or "Jesus Christ" or "The Christ" or "Lord Jesus" or "The Lord Jesus" or "The Messiah" or "The Messias" or ... see what I mean? All those phrases are semantically equivalent, which means that we have a very wide range from which to draw words with the same meanings but different values. Now I grant that "Jesus" and "Word" are very simple, but they are part of a large collection of words with similar meanings and a wide range of values.

    One of the biggest challenges to the assertion that the pattern is "beyond chance" is that the words "Jesus" and "Word" were selected by you, and many other words with similar meanings were not selected because they did not fit the pattern. This means that given the four numbers 252, 263, 391, 263 (which themselves are not unlikely) you had the freedom to search through all the words relating to Christ, God, Creator, Word, Logos, etc to find something that would fit. It would be very difficutl to calculate the probability of finding patterns with these loose constraints, but it certainly does not seem or feel very improbable.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    I predict that it would be impossible to find a group of words with those standard values that are as meaningfully related to each other, to the Bible and to that passage as the signatures of Christ.
    That's a very interesting challenge. I'll give it try if time permits.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Another consideration is the fact that the signatures are found over the first 24 words (reduced value of Ihsous) and over 6-or 12-word strings, formed by quadrisecting those 24 words. The number 6 is again meaningfully related to the Creation story. In addition, the Creation snowflake, a six-sided fractal, is integrated with the encodings. And there is much more here. It all stands or falls together.
    Those are interesting points, especially the connection between 6 and the days of creation.

    Again, its good to be chatting.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146
    I was reading more of Bill's site (here) and found this identity:

    Gen 1:1 (NIV) + Rev 22:21 (NIV) = 888 = Jesus (Greek)

    I must admit that is rather striking. But I still have very big doubts about English gematria. Of course, God can do what ever he likes, and he likes to to things with infinite wisdom and intelligence. So there is no a priori reason to reject the possibility of divine codes saturating every aspect of reality, especially His Word (in all its varied forms). But if everything is "designed" by God in this coded sense, would this include every episode of Mickey Mouse, the Koran, and the patterns on my burnt toast? If so, what then could such a "code" tell us?

    One interesting test of English gematria is to compare different versions. So I looked at the values of Genesis 1:1 (KJV). It exhibits the defining characteristic of Biblical Holographs, namely, self-similarity:

    In the beginning = 137
    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth = 3 x 137

    The Number 137 is prime. It figures very prominently in the Creation Holograph that displays the supernatural integration of Genesis 1:1-5 and John 1:1-5. It is the sum of the Holographic Generating Set (27, 37, 73) which generates the entire numerical structure of the Holograph. So now we have the "coincidence" that the KJV English version of Gen 1:1 integrates quite simply and strikingly with the Creation holograph. It was this "coincidence" that first made me wonder if there might be something "going on" with English gematria. But I find it very challenging to discern chance from design in this area. There are just too many possibilities. And so far, no one has shown me any integrated self-confirming structures like the holographs in English gematria.

    Note that Gen 1:1 in the KJV differs from the NIV by a single "s".

    I think this exercise to establish and articulate how to discern between chance and design will prove to be extremely valuable.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    230
    Hi Richard,

    I agree that "confluence" is a good test. It is not conclusive in and of itself, but it certainly points in the right direction. Also, the symmetrical division of the first 24 words is significant in that symmetric patterns are much more rare than non-symmetric patterns.
    There is more symmetry here too. There are six signatures, three of which are encoded within strings of six words, three within strings of twelve words. These pair up as follows:

    Jesus/Yehoshua
    Word/Word
    Messiah/Messiah

    A further two signatures - Jesus/Word - are braided through the opening 24 words, 'Jesus' through the even-numbered words, 'word' through the odd-numbered words.

    But on the down side we have the fact that the text is divided into fragments that do not follow the natural grammar or syntax of the verse as seen in this image from your site:
    True, but I don't see why the signatures have to follow the verse, sentence or clause structure. It would be great if they did, because that would show that they had been consciously integrated with the text structure, which would be another sign of intelligent design. However, the signatures have their own kind of structure, which appears to me to be just as valid. This structure is based on the number 6, which references the plaintext words (the Creation story) and therefore does show some level of integration with the text, once again through meaning.

    In fact, other parts of the code do integrate with the text structure. For example, take this infamous verse.

    Rev. 13:18 (NIV)
    This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

    Rev. 13:18 (o) = 1151
    Beelzebub (s) = 1151

    'let him calculate the number of the beast' (o) = 352
    Satan (s) = 352

    'for it is man's number' (o) = 216 = 6 x 6 x 6

    All three encodings are integrated with the text structure. There are further number encoded here too.


    This table follows the same pattern as the well established Greek and Hebrew gematriot. But I have a little resistance accepting it because it is a novel 20th century invention and has no historical support. But the proof will be in the pudding it produces.
    Agreed.

    I wrote a quick little program to confirm your results, and I found that the numbers are all correct, so Stage 1 of my review is complete and affirms your work. But in the process I noticed that you used the Ordinal values for the NIV text and compared these with the Standard values of "Jesus" and "Word." The results are correct, of course, but it makes discernment between chance and design more difficult.
    Thanks for your efforts here! As I previously stated, the NBC is unique in that it requires a two-stage decoding process. This has the advantage of making the encoding of numbers easier (the low skips between ordinal values for letters) and, because the encoded numbers are standard values, of reducing uncertainty over which word or phrase is encoded. This two-system encoding method is unusual, to be sure (and I might never have hit upon it on my own - I was 'taught' it), but it is consistent across the code, as can be seen in the Rev. 13:18 encodings above. As with English gematria itself, the proof will be in the pudding.

    Have you found any patterns in Standard values of the NIV text of Genesis?
    I've hardly looked at standard values, so I don't know. From the little I've done I think there might be some information encoded there, but I have my hands full at the moment.

    The standard value of the first two words - 'In the' - is 272, which is the ordinal value of these words:

    Jesus Christ + Second Coming (o) = 272

    So there may be information encoded by the standard value system too.


    As you can see, the Standard values do not show the same repeated pattern of two occurrences of 263. This exemplifies the problem of English Gematria based on Ordinal Values. I have discussed this a lot in other threads. The Ordinal Values compress the numbers into a very narrow range, so that the vast majority of words all fall within a range between 50 and 150:

    Thus we would expect the ordinal values of "six word" phrases to also be collapsed into a narrow range. I wrote another quick little program to see what sort of range we get with six word English phrases. I analyzed the first 30 chapters of Genesis. Here is the graph of the results:

    The smallest value is 121, and the largest is 504. The vast majority are centered on the numbers you found in the opening passage of Genesis 1 which are the most likely values we would expect to find in a random distribution of six-word phrases.
    This is undeniable. However, although the numbers are all within the expected range, the fact that they happen to be the standard values for single words meaningfully related to Jesus Christ (Jesus, Word, messiah, Yehoshua) is not so easy to explain away. It is this fact that is statistically improbable. If the signatures of Christ

    were found over different length word strings (say, 5, 10, 7, 3 and 8 words)
    were found in irregularly overlapping word strings
    were found in word strings with irregular gaps between them
    were encoded at the letter level (eg, ending in the middle of a word)
    were found in an obscure passage (say Leviticus 7:22)
    started from the third word of Genesis 1
    referred to obscure names for Jesus (redeemer, counsellor, etc)
    stood in isolation within the NIV

    I wouldn't think they were significant myself. But they are tightly constructed, found in the most significant words within scripture, start from the first word, are encoded at the word level, form a regular pattern, are integrated with other encodings and encode very commonly-used names and titles for Jesus and form a meaningful whole. For these and other reasons I believe the signatures are genuine and that the signatory is Jesus Christ.

    Have you done any analysis of John 1:1? Does it integrate with Gen 1:1?
    In Irrational Encryptions, I show how the numbers pi, e, Phi and also alpha are encoded within the NIV. Phi is encoded as the ordinal value of John 1:1 divided by the ordinal value of Genesis 1:1. This in itself is not especially accurate (the error is about 1 in 1000). However, the sum of the three mathematical encodings has an error of 1 in 5 million, which is not explained by any cancelling effect.

    http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/irr...cryptions.html

    It's good chatting to you!

    Bill

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    230
    Hi Richard.

    I would like to discuss the question of whether or not it is "statistically improbable" to find these numbers together. As noted in my previous post, the numbers 252 and 263, which account for three of the four phrases you analyzed, reside in the center of the distribution of random six-word phrases, and so are - by definition - statistically "likely."
    The challenge here is that other words have the same meaning. For example, we could have used "Christ" or "Jesus Christ" or "The Christ" or "Lord Jesus" or "The Lord Jesus" or "The Messiah" or "The Messias" or ... see what I mean? All those phrases are semantically equivalent, which means that we have a very wide range from which to draw words with the same meanings but different values. Now I grant that "Jesus" and "Word" are very simple, but they are part of a large collection of words with similar meanings and a wide range of values.
    The numbers are certainly statistically likely. It is the fact that they happen to be standard values of single-word names or titles for Jesus Christ that is unlikely. I've found about 70 words that can be related to Jesus, all found within the Bible. If we take th first 24 words of the NIV, quadrisect them, then make word strings from consecutive pieces we get 10 strings (6, 6, 6, 6, 12, 12, 12, 18, 18, 24). Taking the ordinal values of these word strings gives us 10 shots at hitting one of the 70 names, which we do 6 times. The word-string ordinal values range from 252 to 1169 and the standard vaues of the names range from 18 to 1201, if I recall correctly. So the ranges are about the same. The binomial probability of hitting 6 of the 70 standard values, where n = 10, k = 6, p = 70/1201 = 0.05828, gives us a probability of 0.000007562... or 1 in 150000 against this happening by chance.

    Now, I am aware that most of the values will cluster around a few hundred, so the actual probability will be somewhat higher. But then I have taken 70 words, most of which are only tenuously associated with Jesus - words such as dove, counsellor, friend, etc. The encoded numbers refer to the words, Jesus, Messiah, Word and Yehoshua - all strongly related to Jesus. Yehoshua is Hebrew, so if we leave that one out we get a probability of 0.000125, or 1 in 8000, still impressive. This probability only refers to the numbers, of course. There is still the question of whether we can justify associating these with words. But if we do, great meaning appears.

    One of the biggest challenges to the assertion that the pattern is "beyond chance" is that the words "Jesus" and "Word" were selected by you, and many other words with similar meanings were not selected because they did not fit the pattern. This means that given the four numbers 252, 263, 391, 263 (which themselves are not unlikely) you had the freedom to search through all the words relating to Christ, God, Creator, Word, Logos, etc to find something that would fit. It would be very difficutl to calculate the probability of finding patterns with these loose constraints, but it certainly does not seem or feel very improbable.
    You're right, of course, although it was't as simple as that. Once I found the sv of 'Jesus' in the first 12 words I did focus on the Trinity, then on synonyms for Jesus. I tried the next 12 and eventually saw that this was the sv of 'word', and so on. Remember too that there is a lot more encoded material here, all integrating with the signatures. It would be very difficult to calculate the real probability of the signatures being found within the NIV's first 24 words, but we can play around with questions, such as, 'If the sv of the word 'Jesus' is found within the 10 word strings, what is the probability of
    the sv of related words being found?' This would then give 1 in 8500 and 1 in 600 if we exclude 'Yehoshua'. I think that's still impressive.

    Bill

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    230
    I was reading more of Bill's site (here) and found this identity:

    Gen 1:1 (NIV) + Rev 22:21 (NIV) = 888 = Jesus (Greek)

    I must admit that is rather striking.
    I think it's striking too, particularly since these are the Bible's 'alpha' and 'omega' verses.

    Moreover, we have the sv of 'Jesus' encoded over the first 12 words of the NIV and 'Yehoshua' encoded over the last nine words. So we have Jesus encoded in English, Hebrew and Greek!

    But I still have very big doubts about English gematria. Of course, God can do what ever he likes, and he likes to to things with infinite wisdom and intelligence. So there is no a priori reason to reject the possibility of divine codes saturating every aspect of reality, especially His Word (in all its varied forms). But if everything is "designed" by God in this coded sense, would this include every episode of Mickey Mouse, the Koran, and the patterns on my burnt toast? If so, what then could such a "code" tell us?
    I think everything is meaningful, although usually the meaning is that there is no meaning, if you see what I mean. So God could very well encode a piece of burnt toast if He wished, but usually wouldn't do so. In fact, I believe God once sent me a very important message, which began with me burning my toast!

    One interesting test of English gematria is to compare different versions. So I looked at the values of Genesis 1:1 (KJV). It exhibits the defining characteristic of Biblical Holographs, namely, self-similarity:

    In the beginning = 137
    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth = 3 x 137
    I've tried to find encoded material within the KJV but haven't seen anything impressive. There may be some kind of code there, but it's not the New Bible Code. However, all versions of the Bible contain parts of the New Bible Code, which has been thousands of years in the making - although only the NIV has the complete code. The 'cross' at Amos 9, which I wrote of earlier, is an example.

    http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/911amos.html

    All the 66-book versions will have it.

    The Number 137 is prime. It figures very prominently in the Creation Holograph that displays the supernatural integration of Genesis 1:1-5 and John 1:1-5. It is the sum of the Holographic Generating Set (27, 37, 73) which generates the entire numerical structure of the Holograph. So now we have the "coincidence" that the KJV English version of Gen 1:1 integrates quite simply and strikingly with the Creation holograph.
    The Creation Holograph is most impressive and I think you've done a great job there.

    Bill

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146
    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Hi Richard.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    I would like to discuss the question of whether or not it is "statistically improbable" to find these numbers together. As noted in my previous post, the numbers 252 and 263, which account for three of the four phrases you analyzed, reside in the center of the distribution of random six-word phrases, and so are - by definition - statistically "likely."
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    The challenge here is that other words have the same meaning. For example, we could have used "Christ" or "Jesus Christ" or "The Christ" or "Lord Jesus" or "The Lord Jesus" or "The Messiah" or "The Messias" or ... see what I mean? All those phrases are semantically equivalent, which means that we have a very wide range from which to draw words with the same meanings but different values. Now I grant that "Jesus" and "Word" are very simple, but they are part of a large collection of words with similar meanings and a wide range of values.
    The numbers are certainly statistically likely. It is the fact that they happen to be standard values of single-word names or titles for Jesus Christ that is unlikely. I've found about 70 words that can be related to Jesus, all found within the Bible. If we take th first 24 words of the NIV, quadrisect them, then make word strings from consecutive pieces we get 10 strings (6, 6, 6, 6, 12, 12, 12, 18, 18, 24). Taking the ordinal values of these word strings gives us 10 shots at hitting one of the 70 names, which we do 6 times. The word-string ordinal values range from 252 to 1169 and the standard vaues of the names range from 18 to 1201, if I recall correctly. So the ranges are about the same. The binomial probability of hitting 6 of the 70 standard values, where n = 10, k = 6, p = 70/1201 = 0.05828, gives us a probability of 0.000007562... or 1 in 150000 against this happening by chance.
    Hey there my friend,

    It is wonderful to be discussing this with you - I LOVE your openness to examine the facts without any sense of defensiveness or rancor. Just seeking the truth. It is good to have you here.

    Have you listed the 70 names and their values in one place on your site? That would be helpful in our evalutation of the stats.

    Now as for the binomial probablity, here is the forumula, for folks who don't know:



    This formula gives the probability of getting exactly k successes in n trials, where p is the probability of a single success. I understand why you chose p = 70/1201 since you began with 70 possible name values relating to Christ that that range from 18 to 1201. But if you use this range, I suppose that we should have used 1201 - 18 = 1183 which gives only a slightly higher probability. The number 10 refers to the 10 values of the 10 strings, and k = 6 refers to finding six values that match.

    Now I plugged these numbers into the formula, and got a slightly different result than you:

    Pn(k) = 0.00000647

    The number is very close to yours, but it is different and I double checked it and it seems to be correct, so you might want to check your calculations. But this is a fine point that doesn't really matter since the conclusions are about the same. The real issue is the validity of the application of this equation, as discussed below.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Now, I am aware that most of the values will cluster around a few hundred, so the actual probability will be somewhat higher. But then I have taken 70 words, most of which are only tenuously associated with Jesus - words such as dove, counsellor, friend, etc. The encoded numbers refer to the words, Jesus, Messiah, Word and Yehoshua - all strongly related to Jesus. Yehoshua is Hebrew, so if we leave that one out we get a probability of 0.000125, or 1 in 8000, still impressive. This probability only refers to the numbers, of course. There is still the question of whether we can justify associating these with words. But if we do, great meaning appears.
    This is a very important observation. The Binomial Probability is based on the assumption of a uniform (random) probability for each individual outcome, called "p" in the formula. But that is not the case with gematria. As you noted, the distribution is far from uniform. A randomly chosen value is MUCH more likely to be around 300 than 50 or 1000, as seen in this graph:



    When you used p = 70/1201 you were implicitly assuming a uniform distribution. But the likelihood of the value 1201 is about one fourth that of say 300. A proper statistical analysis would have to use this empirical probability distribution as a starting point. I haven't crunched the numbers, but I am sure that they would yield a much higher probability.

    But none of these probabilities mean very much to me anyway because if God designed something it should be self-evident and not dependent upon complex calculations with results that always contain uncertainty, and are meaningless to the vast majority of people anyway. The truly wonderful results of the Greek and Hebrew gematria such as the Creation Holograph are self-confirming and so don't require probability calculations to convince. They are coherent self-reflective structures that are truly beautiful on many levels and become more beautiful the more one meditates upon them. For example, Genesis 1:1 has a self-similarity

    Gen 1:1 = 2701 = 37 x 73 = Tri(73) = Tri(37) + 2 x 27 x 37

    I highlighted the numbers (27, 37, 73) which form the Holographic Generating Set. Note that 73 = Star(4) and 37 = Star(3) = Hex(4), and that the text of Gen 1:1 subdivides in accordence with its grammatical structure to be self-reflective. Note also that 37 and 73 are reflective primes and that they are both star numbers, and that the digits 3 and 7 play a very significant role. And so on and so forth - this is just the beginning, the beauty of the Creation Holograph is endless, and goes as deep as deep can go. It can be meditated upon and its intrinsic beauty always blossoms into new insights and wonder. It truly is "worthy of God" by which I mean that it displays His infinite wisdom in ten thousand ways. As yet, I do not see such beauty in the "signature" that we are exploring in the NIV. None of my conclusions about the Creation Holograph depend upon "probabilites" - the fact of its "design" is self-evident to everyone once they take the time to understand whats really going on.

    Talk more soon,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may edit your posts
  •