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  1. #1
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    Why does god put the needs of the few above the need of the many?

    Why does god put the needs of the few above the need of the many?

    That moral tenet is about the only objective moral tenet I know of that has not been shown to ever be subjective. Yahweh seems to be doing the wrong thing.

    We are told that most of us will end on the wide road to hell while the few end on the narrow path to heaven.

    It is demonstrable that nature creates for the best possible end.

    Why does Yahweh not follow the better rules he gave nature, and creates us for the worst possible end for the vast majority of us?

    A decent father would not have the morals or ethics Yahweh seems to follow.

    If true, then we end with more souls lost to Satan than souls saved by Yahweh. Even as scriptures say that Yahweh wills that all souls be saved.

    God not getting his will is not allowed. God must always come out ahead. Something is not right for god.

    Thoughts?

    Regards
    DL

  2. #2
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    God does come out ahead, but very few Christians believe it. When Jerome got the church to add 2 Peter and the book of Jude to the cannon, succeeded in getting the church to accept a latin translation of the bible based on the Masoretic text, along with sloppy translation of a few key words and passages, he gave the Roman converts to Christianity just what they wanted. A vindictive, wrathful judge to replace the Father image that was prevalent in the eastern churches. The Roman church used these tools to "grind lenses" for Christians to wear when they read or heard the scriptures, and these lenses blinded people to the fact that the bible, properly translated and interpreted, teaches that God will save each and every person who has ever lived, either in this age or one to come. Tertullian, Jerome, and Augustine were all highly intelligent people, but they were blinded in some ways by the arrogant spirit that pervaded the Roman culture. In Jerome's case, this cultural self-conceit may have provided him with enough justification to allow him to lie more than once. Maybe he thought these were "medicinal lies" that he could convince himself would lead to a good end for others. If that wasn't the case, they were self-serving and malignant. (I've often wondered if Jerome's name isn't based on the Hebrew letter yod combined with the word אֲרָם giving it the meaning of "he exalts" i.e. he exalts himself. Something Jerome had no problem demonstrating) It is ironic that the Catholic Encyclopedia states that the church's light never shone brighter than in the days of the Cappadocian church fathers, but they ignore the fact that unlike their hero Augustine, most of those Cappadocian church fathers were open universalists.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    God does come out ahead, but very few Christians believe it. When Jerome got the church to add 2 Peter and the book of Jude to the cannon, succeeded in getting the church to accept a latin translation of the bible based on the Masoretic text, along with sloppy translation of a few key words and passages, he gave the Roman converts to Christianity just what they wanted. A vindictive, wrathful judge to replace the Father image that was prevalent in the eastern churches. The Roman church used these tools to "grind lenses" for Christians to wear when they read or heard the scriptures, and these lenses blinded people to the fact that the bible, properly translated and interpreted, teaches that God will save each and every person who has ever lived, either in this age or one to come. Tertullian, Jerome, and Augustine were all highly intelligent people, but they were blinded in some ways by the arrogant spirit that pervaded the Roman culture. In Jerome's case, this cultural self-conceit may have provided him with enough justification to allow him to lie more than once. Maybe he thought these were "medicinal lies" that he could convince himself would lead to a good end for others. If that wasn't the case, they were self-serving and malignant. (I've often wondered if Jerome's name isn't based on the Hebrew letter yod combined with the word אֲרָם giving it the meaning of "he exalts" i.e. he exalts himself. Something Jerome had no problem demonstrating) It is ironic that the Catholic Encyclopedia states that the church's light never shone brighter than in the days of the Cappadocian church fathers, but they ignore the fact that unlike their hero Augustine, most of those Cappadocian church fathers were open universalists.
    Indeed.

    They could not envisage a god as foul as Yahweh or the notion that anyone would idolize such a satanic personality. Respect to Satan. She is first class as compared to Yahweh.

    Keep in mind the still Noble Lie, that fictitious god religions are worthy of us.

    Most were universalist back then because they did not read myths literally and the majority would have been labelled Gnostic.

    Most could not read.

    Regards
    DL

  4. #4
    I actually think that God helps the ones that are actually trying to get better and do better things

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by FirstImpact View Post
    I actually think that God helps the ones that are actually trying to get better and do better things

    You describe those who have the least need of a God.

    You might recall that Jesus said that he came for the ill, not the well. You would have god come for the well.

    Why?


    As to your use of God, please define which God.

    God is just a title and says nothing of the tyrant or present office/position holder.

    If morals are important to you, remember that Satan's are demonstrably better than Yahweh's.

    Regards
    DL

  6. #6

    Through Christ we are redeemed from the old Adam nature

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    The Roman church used these tools to "grind lenses" for Christians to wear when they read or heard the scriptures, and these lenses blinded people to the fact that the bible, properly translated and interpreted, teaches that G-d will save each and every person who has ever lived, either in this age or one to come.

    Until today, many people - especially Christians - define themselves by their fallen Adam nature. Thus, the gospel of Jesus Christ, which was revealed to Paul, is only half received. Precisely because of this, however, it is not understood at all


    for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of G-d; Rom.3:22b-23


    Many set the point here. As if Paul were saying here: We are and remain just all sinners. But that is exactly what Paul is not saying here.

    Sinners, that was our condition, our nature, before the Lord Jesus became man, died on the cross, and after three days rose again and returned to G-d the Father as the Son of Man. But then Paul continues:


    Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom.3:24


    Through Christ we are redeemed from the old Adam nature. Deliverance from our sinner nature has come through Christ Jesus, Paul says. For all people! How is this possible?

    This brings us to a second statement of Paul's, which we have only half perceived and therefore quite misunderstood:


    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:Rom. 5:12


    and again I myself have put a point here for a long time.


    True: Through the One, Adam, we all came under the curse of the Fall. We all owe to Adam, without our own doing, that our nature is sinful. Blind to G-d, and blind to our G-d likeness.

    Darkened and condemned to live with the destructive effects of this darkening as described in the Letter to the Romans.

    For the wrath of G-d is revealed from heaven against all ung-dliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Rom.1:18ff-32.


    But again it is true that Paul merely makes a comma in order to come afterwards to the statement he is concerned with here:


    Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Rom.5:18


    As if Paul had guessed how easily the second part of his sentence - and thus the point he wants to make clear! - will be overlooked, he says it again:


    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom.5:19


    Do you understand?

    Paul is making an equation here, so to speak:

    As Adam - so Christ.

    Adam and Jesus Christ are alike in that they both embody not only a single human individual. In Adam as well as in Jesus the whole humanity is mysteriously contained. That is why the fall of Adam affected every single human being. That is why, through Adam, all human beings became Adam-natures, sinners.

    Christians usually have no trouble agreeing with this fact. The situation is different when it comes to the second part of the equation that Paul sets up: In the same way, Paul says, through righteousness from the Lord Jesus all men have been endowed with the new Christ nature:

    No longer sinners, but righteous.

    Or, as Paul keeps saying, saints.

    But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ung-dly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Rom 4:5
    that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal.2:16b
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of G-d: Eph 2:8


    And by far not everyone believes in salvation through Jesus Christ!

    Luther said: Faith is like the eye: The eye does not create what it sees, but it sees what is there.

    Faith does not create our righteousness, but faith recognizes that we are righteous through and in Jesus Christ. Or put differently, and unequivocally: Every single person who has ever lived, is now living, and will live, is a redeemed righteous person through and in Jesus Christ. But many are completely blind to this fact. Only the one who sees it becomes a believer. And thus to a person who can fully enjoy and express this gift of the new Christ nature.

    People who are still blind to the redemption through Jesus Christ are indeed already expressing aspects of the Christ-nature with their lives, but they cannot yet enjoy communion with the triune G-d. They are still blind to the fact that through Jesus Christ they have been made sons of G-d, and thus heirs of G-d.

    The objective truth - the Gospel that Paul enthusiastically and joyfully proclaims - is the reconciliation of the whole world to G-d

    To wit, that G-d was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor. 5:19


    The subjective response to this truth - called faith or unbelief - determines whether we can also enjoy this reconciliation, live in it. In order for you to understand this a little better, I need a comparison (which, like all comparisons, is bound to be a little lame).

    Imagine that an infinitely rich man decides to pay out 10 million to each person in an account personally set up for him. When do the recipients become millionaires?

    Exactly: the moment the rich man deposits the millions into their account. Now everyone is free to decide what to do with this gift. It is possible - for whatever reason - not to accept it and not to use it. It is possible not to touch those millions for a whole lifetime and seemingly die a poor wretch. The millions are there. But they are of absolutely no use if someone does not believe that they belong to him or is not prepared to use them.

    Likewise, it is possible to be redeemed, saved, righteous before G-d, and yet to die unredeemed, lost, seemingly as a sinner. Or rather, to remain in darkness for all eternity as far as seeing and accepting salvation through Jesus Christ is concerned. However, when our eyes are opened, when we become seeing, believing, then all defining about our sinful, fallen being ceases. Then we stop thinking of the old Adam nature as our essence, our identity. Then we begin to rejoice that we are indeed a new creation: Human beings who, as redeemed images of G-d, reflect Christ. Who bear His essence, His identity within them. Who are beloved sons and daughters of G-d, endowed with the same state of sonship that the Lord Jesus possesses, richly endowed heirs of G-d, who believe what the Heavenly Father says:

    And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. Lk 5:31


    The view that in Jesus Christ all are made righteous changes our perception: The perception of ourselves. The perception of other people. And, of course, the way we perceive G-d! This view will have a revolutionary effect in pastoral care. It will turn around the understanding and the way of evangelism.It will radically change relationships. It will make the Gospel again the good news that Paul preached:

    To wit, that G-d was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2.Cor.5,19

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoric View Post
    Until today, many people - especially Christians - define themselves by their fallen Adam nature. Thus, the gospel of Jesus Christ, which was revealed to Paul, is only half received. Precisely because of this, however, it is not understood at all


    for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of G-d; Rom.3:22b-23


    Many set the point here. As if Paul were saying here: We are and remain just all sinners. But that is exactly what Paul is not saying here.

    Sinners, that was our condition, our nature, before the Lord Jesus became man, died on the cross, and after three days rose again and returned to G-d the Father as the Son of Man. But then Paul continues:


    Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom.3:24


    Through Christ we are redeemed from the old Adam nature. Deliverance from our sinner nature has come through Christ Jesus, Paul says. For all people! How is this possible?

    This brings us to a second statement of Paul's, which we have only half perceived and therefore quite misunderstood:


    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:Rom. 5:12


    and again I myself have put a point here for a long time.


    True: Through the One, Adam, we all came under the curse of the Fall. We all owe to Adam, without our own doing, that our nature is sinful. Blind to G-d, and blind to our G-d likeness.

    Darkened and condemned to live with the destructive effects of this darkening as described in the Letter to the Romans.

    For the wrath of G-d is revealed from heaven against all ung-dliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Rom.1:18ff-32.


    But again it is true that Paul merely makes a comma in order to come afterwards to the statement he is concerned with here:


    Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Rom.5:18


    As if Paul had guessed how easily the second part of his sentence - and thus the point he wants to make clear! - will be overlooked, he says it again:


    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom.5:19


    Do you understand?

    Paul is making an equation here, so to speak:

    As Adam - so Christ.

    Adam and Jesus Christ are alike in that they both embody not only a single human individual. In Adam as well as in Jesus the whole humanity is mysteriously contained. That is why the fall of Adam affected every single human being. That is why, through Adam, all human beings became Adam-natures, sinners.

    Christians usually have no trouble agreeing with this fact. The situation is different when it comes to the second part of the equation that Paul sets up: In the same way, Paul says, through righteousness from the Lord Jesus all men have been endowed with the new Christ nature:

    No longer sinners, but righteous.

    Or, as Paul keeps saying, saints.

    But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ung-dly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Rom 4:5
    that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal.2:16b
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of G-d: Eph 2:8


    And by far not everyone believes in salvation through Jesus Christ!

    Luther said: Faith is like the eye: The eye does not create what it sees, but it sees what is there.

    Faith does not create our righteousness, but faith recognizes that we are righteous through and in Jesus Christ. Or put differently, and unequivocally: Every single person who has ever lived, is now living, and will live, is a redeemed righteous person through and in Jesus Christ. But many are completely blind to this fact. Only the one who sees it becomes a believer. And thus to a person who can fully enjoy and express this gift of the new Christ nature.

    People who are still blind to the redemption through Jesus Christ are indeed already expressing aspects of the Christ-nature with their lives, but they cannot yet enjoy communion with the triune G-d. They are still blind to the fact that through Jesus Christ they have been made sons of G-d, and thus heirs of G-d.

    The objective truth - the Gospel that Paul enthusiastically and joyfully proclaims - is the reconciliation of the whole world to G-d

    To wit, that G-d was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor. 5:19


    The subjective response to this truth - called faith or unbelief - determines whether we can also enjoy this reconciliation, live in it. In order for you to understand this a little better, I need a comparison (which, like all comparisons, is bound to be a little lame).

    Imagine that an infinitely rich man decides to pay out 10 million to each person in an account personally set up for him. When do the recipients become millionaires?

    Exactly: the moment the rich man deposits the millions into their account. Now everyone is free to decide what to do with this gift. It is possible - for whatever reason - not to accept it and not to use it. It is possible not to touch those millions for a whole lifetime and seemingly die a poor wretch. The millions are there. But they are of absolutely no use if someone does not believe that they belong to him or is not prepared to use them.

    Likewise, it is possible to be redeemed, saved, righteous before G-d, and yet to die unredeemed, lost, seemingly as a sinner. Or rather, to remain in darkness for all eternity as far as seeing and accepting salvation through Jesus Christ is concerned. However, when our eyes are opened, when we become seeing, believing, then all defining about our sinful, fallen being ceases. Then we stop thinking of the old Adam nature as our essence, our identity. Then we begin to rejoice that we are indeed a new creation: Human beings who, as redeemed images of G-d, reflect Christ. Who bear His essence, His identity within them. Who are beloved sons and daughters of G-d, endowed with the same state of sonship that the Lord Jesus possesses, richly endowed heirs of G-d, who believe what the Heavenly Father says:

    And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. Lk 5:31


    The view that in Jesus Christ all are made righteous changes our perception: The perception of ourselves. The perception of other people. And, of course, the way we perceive G-d! This view will have a revolutionary effect in pastoral care. It will turn around the understanding and the way of evangelism.It will radically change relationships. It will make the Gospel again the good news that Paul preached:

    To wit, that G-d was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2.Cor.5,19
    General dogma repetition, --- without thought.

    You say you need redemption.

    What did you do to get condemned, and was it a fair verdict?

    You are saying we must accept Jesus, yet ignore that to do so, you mist sin mightily by abdicating your own responsibility.

    You want to follow a satanic way.

    As to any defect in Adam, if sin is a defect, why do you sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh's plan.

    Either you do not know the dogma, which is indicated by your poor moral choices.

    Regards
    DL

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
    General dogma repetition, --- without thought.

    You say you need redemption.

    What did you do to get condemned, and was it a fair verdict?

    You are saying we must accept Jesus, yet ignore that to do so, you mist sin mightily by abdicating your own responsibility.

    You want to follow a satanic way.

    As to any defect in Adam, if sin is a defect, why do you sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh's plan.

    Either you do not know the dogma, which is indicated by your poor moral choices.

    Regards
    DL

    What I miss is the underpinning of your views with bible quotes.


    Before G-d we are righteous because we have a new life.

    The foundation of our faith is our new identity in Christ.

    Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17

    We have died with him, our old man has been buried with him once and for all, and we have been raised to a new life:

    Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col.2, 12-13


    If we believe that we are part old and part new, that we are part saint and part sinner, then we will live in a rather mediocre way and little will distinguish us from a non-Christian. We more or less come to terms with our tendency to sin, always striving to improve, but we will live a constant loser's existence because we see ourselves only as a sinner, saved by grace but now having to deal with this ups and downs until our born again in the resurrection.

    Many Christians, through lack of faith, do not even know their destiny in Jesus Christ.

    Therefore, Satan can make them believe that they are nothing but mere natural man with his ups and downs, with his desperate efforts to become better. Then they will also behave like one.

    Satan, G-d's adversary, keeps trying to foist these doubting thoughts on them so that they remain in constant worry.

    G-d is no longer digging around in our old sins; he has given us a new life, so what can he do with our old life?

    When G-d looks down on us from heaven, he no longer sees a sinful, flawed human being with no relationship to him, but he pronounces judgment on us, which is unequivocal:

    Righteous!

    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom 5:19

    The teaching of righteousness, of identity, is the most important teaching of the Bible. It is our foundation.

    Jesus came to give us back our identity. Through faith we receive a new life with a new identity!

    Through faith our basic needs for acceptance, for love, for our self-worth, for security, for a goal and a purpose of life are satisfied again.
    Last edited by Theodoric; 04-10-2021 at 04:20 AM.

  9. #9
    In Romans 3:23 we read:

    For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of G-d; Rom 3:23

    The "glory of G-d" implies the idea of absolute perfection. Sin, therefore, means falling short of this standard. All people are guilty of this.

    What a tragedy! G-d's heart and purpose are wide open to all, but despite the open door, no one is able to enter because G-d is so much higher spiritually and morally in holiness and power!

    There is no hope for man and mankind. But G-d has done something, G-d himself came in the person of Jesus. He became man like us. He is one of us. As one of us, He does something wonderful. He obeys the whole law, at all times, His whole life. From birth to death, He never disobeys! He is G-d; we are all descended from Him.

    When mankind comes from Him, His value is equal to the value of all mankind. It looks like this:

    G-d = all mankind (comes from G-d).

    If Jesus is equal in value to all mankind, He can legally fulfill the law in our place.

    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom 5:19

    Something is happening, all of a sudden! G-d keeps the law, but why?

    So that He can pass on this obedience or righteousness to you and me

    for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, Isa 61:10b

    We have been given new clothes by Jesus that are always "in", that do not come off. Under these clothes we have protection. Under these clothes nothing can destroy us. Under these clothes we find salvation (clothes of salvation).

    And Jesus has given us righteousness (robe of righteousness). We are perfectly righteous before G-d because we have a new life.

    The complete obedience, righteousness, holiness and perfection of Jesus have been given to every believer, once and for all.

  10. #10
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoric View Post
    What I miss is the underpinning of your views with bible quotes.


    Before G-d we are righteous because we have a new life.

    The foundation of our faith is our new identity in Christ.

    Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17

    We have died with him, our old man has been buried with him once and for all, and we have been raised to a new life:

    Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col.2, 12-13


    If we believe that we are part old and part new, that we are part saint and part sinner, then we will live in a rather mediocre way and little will distinguish us from a non-Christian. We more or less come to terms with our tendency to sin, always striving to improve, but we will live a constant loser's existence because we see ourselves only as a sinner, saved by grace but now having to deal with this ups and downs until our born again in the resurrection.

    Many Christians, through lack of faith, do not even know their destiny in Jesus Christ.

    Therefore, Satan can make them believe that they are nothing but mere natural man with his ups and downs, with his desperate efforts to become better. Then they will also behave like one.

    Satan, G-d's adversary, keeps trying to foist these doubting thoughts on them so that they remain in constant worry.

    G-d is no longer digging around in our old sins; he has given us a new life, so what can he do with our old life?

    When G-d looks down on us from heaven, he no longer sees a sinful, flawed human being with no relationship to him, but he pronounces judgment on us, which is unequivocal:

    Righteous!

    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom 5:19

    The teaching of righteousness, of identity, is the most important teaching of the Bible. It is our foundation.

    Jesus came to give us back our identity. Through faith we receive a new life with a new identity!

    Through faith our basic needs for acceptance, for love, for our self-worth, for security, for a goal and a purpose of life are satisfied again.
    Faith without facts is for fools.

    If you are a Jew, what in hell are you doing reading the bible literally?

    You want to follow Jesus yet run from question on his moral underpinnings, like your unjust condemnation.

    I see though that you want to follow in the footsteps of a genocidal prick of a god, think Armageddon, when most of my family and yours get sent to hell.

    I will let fools without facts, or morals, pray for that.

    Regards
    DL

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