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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    it's not a single trivial coincidence


    it's no coincidence, but deliberately written that way.
    How do you know that?

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    It proves that Paul knew that "the covenant between the parts" (Genesis 15) took place when Abra(ha)m was 70 years old, so five years before he left Charan.
    You didn't answer my question. I was asking about the connection between the number 430 in the text and the value of the Greek word nomos (law). Do you think that proves Paul was using Greek gematria? If not, why would you believe the appearance of the number 318 in Exo 14:14 was an example of gematria?

    And why is it so difficult for you to answer basic questions?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    How do you know that?


    You didn't answer my question. I was asking about the connection between the number 430 in the text and the value of the Greek word nomos (law). Do you think that proves Paul was using Greek gematria? If not, why would you believe the appearance of the number 318 in Exo 14:14 was an example of gematria?

    And why is it so difficult for you to answer basic questions?

    of course Paul was not hinting at the value of Greek "nomos", since the number 430 is mentioned in Exodus 12:40,

    And the habitation of the children of Israel, that they dwelled in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.


    In that same year Torah, the law, was given

    Rashi:
    was four hundred and thirty years: Altogether, from the time that Isaac was born, until now, were 400 years. From the time that Abraham had seed [i.e., had a child, the prophecy] ?that your seed will be strangers? (Gen. 15:13) was fulfilled; and there were another 30 years from the decree ?between the parts? (Gen 15:10) until Isaac was born
    430 is gematria of "nefesh"= (bodily) soul, the soul that Jesus would give as ransom for many (Mark 10:45)

    430 happens to be also gematria of Rameses,

    Exodus 40:37,
    The children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth

    From Rameses to Succoth = From 430 to 480, difference 50, coinciding the 50th day after Jesus was laid in the grave = Pentecost

    Rashi knew that too
    from Rameses to Succoth: They were 120 "mil" [apart]. Yet they arrived there instantly, as it is said: ?and I carried you on eagles? wings.? -[from Mechilta]
    since "I carried you on eagles' wings " is derived from Exodus 19:4, where the chidren of Israel arrived in the desert of Sinai and Moses had ascended to God.
    Last edited by sylvius; 08-21-2019 at 12:03 AM.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    How do you know that?

    From gematria of "siach" in Genesis 2:5

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    of course Paul was not hinting at the value of Greek "nomos", since the number 430 is mentioned in Exodus 12:40,

    And the habitation of the children of Israel, that they dwelled in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.


    In that same year Torah, the law, was given

    Rashi:

    430 is gematria of "nefesh"= (bodily) soul, the soul that Jesus would give as ransom for many (Mark 10:45)

    430 happens to be also gematria of Rameses,

    Exodus 40:37,
    The children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth

    From Rameses to Succoth = From 430 to 480, difference 50, coinciding the 50th day after Jesus was laid in the grave = Pentecost

    Rashi knew that too


    since "I carried you on eagles' wings " is derived from Exodus 19:4, where the chidren of Israel arrived in the desert of Sinai and Moses had ascended to God.
    Mark 10:45 is after Isaiah 53:10

    אִם־תָּשִׂ֚ים אָשָׁם֙ נַפְשׁ֔וֹ יִרְאֶ֥ה זֶ֖רַע, : "im tassim asham nafsho yireh zera" = "if he makes his soul ransom he will see seed"

    Rashi:
    This word אָשָׁם is an expression of ransom that one gives to the one against when he sinned
    Christian exegetes do fail to see/subcribe this, a.o. because of their rejection / condemnnation of gematria.

    Most do translate ψυχή with life, while it clearly stands for Hebrew "nefesh" = soul

    https://biblehub.com/mark/10-45.htm

    אָשָׁם
    https://biblehub.com/hebrew/817.htm
    guilt (2), guilt offering (38), guilt offerings (1), guilty deeds (1), sin (1), wrong (3).



    Greek αἰτία in Mark 15:26 stands for Hebrew "asham", even as it is mentioned in Isaiah 53:10 (you can know from Mark 10:45)

    καὶ ἦν ἡ ἐπιγραφὴ τῆς αἰτίας αὐτοῦ ἐπιγεγραμμένη, Ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων.


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  5. #15
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    "asham" is written with the three mother-letters mentioned in the Sefer Yetzirah

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefer_Yetzirah

    the three "mothers" from which the other letters of the alphabet are formed

  6. #16
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    John 11:1,

    Now there was someone sick, Lazarus
    ην δέ τις ἀσθενῶν, Λάζαρος

    Lazarus = Eliezer

    sick = Hebrew "choleh" --

    normal, square, profane = "chol" , gematria 38

    John played with that

    John 5:5
    δέ τις ἄνθρωπος ἐκεῖ τριάκοντα [καὶ] ὀκτὼ ἔτη ἔχων ἐν τῇ ἀσθενείᾳ αὐτοῦ:
    a certain man had been there for 38 years in his sickness.

    The Jews figurating in the gospel of John all were reckoning with historical (= normal, square, profane) evidence, like that the 318 trained servants of Abram should have been literal 318 men. Etc.

    John 8:53,
    Art thou greater than our father Abraham, who died?

  7. #17
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    Genesis 14:14 has , he armed his "chanichaw", born in his house,

    "chanich" = initiate, apprentice, pupil

    Rashi:
    it [חֲנִיכָיו] is an expression of the initiation (lit. the beginning of the entrance) of a person or a utensil to the craft with which he [or it] is destined to remain, and similarly (Prov. 22: 6): "Train (חֲנֹךְ) a child"

    They were initiated in the secret knowledge

    (i.e. they knew about the 2701-gematria of Genesis 1:1 )

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    of course Paul was not hinting at the value of Greek "nomos", since the number 430 is mentioned in Exodus 12:40,

    And the habitation of the children of Israel, that they dwelled in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.


    In that same year Torah, the law, was given
    And that's exactly why I (back in the day when I believed in gematria) said it must have been God who designed the text since it was beyond Paul's ability to put that number in Exodus.

    If the mere coincidence of a number appearing in both the plain text and the gematria of the text is "evidence" that gematria was being deliberately used, then we must conclude that God is the one using gematria in both the Old Testament and the New.

    This answers the question you asked Bill in the other thread "Why couldn't it have been done by some intelligent person / intelligent people?" in the other thread (here).

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Rashi:

    430 is gematria of "nefesh"= (bodily) soul, the soul that Jesus would give as ransom for many (Mark 10:45)

    430 happens to be also gematria of Rameses,

    Exodus 40:37,
    The children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth

    From Rameses to Succoth = From 430 to 480, difference 50, coinciding the 50th day after Jesus was laid in the grave = Pentecost

    Rashi knew that too


    since "I carried you on eagles' wings " is derived from Exodus 19:4, where the chidren of Israel arrived in the desert of Sinai and Moses had ascended to God.
    Yes, there are lots of random words that have the same numeric value. That's why there's no meaning to gematria.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    From gematria of "siach" in Genesis 2:5
    Why is that evidence? That word has nothing to do with Exodus 14:14, and lots of words have the same value.

    Your methods seem to be entirely irrational.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    And that's exactly why I (back in the day when I believed in gematria) said it must have been God who designed the text since it was beyond Paul's ability to put that number in Exodus.

    If the mere coincidence of a number appearing in both the plain text and the gematria of the text is "evidence" that gematria was being deliberately used, then we must conclude that God is the one using gematria in both the Old Testament and the New.




    Yes, there are lots of random words that have the same numeric value. That's why there's no meaning to gematria.
    except for that, if there was no letter "hey" added to "shishi" in Genesis 1:31, there would have existed nothing at all, also no biblewheel- forum


    Exodus 4:11,
    But the Lord said to him, "Who gave man a mouth, or who makes [one] dumb or deaf or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord"?


    I, the lord = "anochi hashem" אָֽנֹכִ֖י יְהֹוָֽה = 81 + 26 = 107 = "magen david" = the Davidstar in Genesis 1:1

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