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  1. #1
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    How do we know if something is true?

    The most basic method for finding out what is true, is to test your theory against the evidence.

    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  2. #2
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    Humans are limited and have the God-given capacity to explore and acquire knowledge. Whatever we find out, God knows already.

    The fact that people did not describe the universe in ways we know how vast the universe is, is not evidence to say that their limited view changes anything with regards to belief in a Creator. Scienc admits it does not know a lot. Astrophysics is not done and dusted, there is a lot which is not testable and proof is often based on speculation. When scientists speak, to give them their due, they speak with lots of uncertainty that is expressed in the words that convey uncertainty. like the words; "probably".

    Humanism can only do what is said in the video, but it does nothing to disprove God exists. As for knocking the end of the word doomsdy predictors, those people have been premature in their announcements. It does not change the word of God that is still being fufilled. Humanists are just as flawed as those who have been flawed in their understanding of God' word. Fundamentally, God's promises and God's prophecies have not failed and there is still prophecy to be fulfilled. The signs are building up that is pointing towards The Great Day of the LORD. Jesus cannot return until certain things have been fulfilled. The master plan is still working to time, even if we cannot pinpoint accurately the dates prohecies remaining will be fulfilled.

    Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork.2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. The heavens contiune to declare; they are declaring. That is something science will never reveal, or show understanding of.

    Humanists can claim to have invented medicines and cured diseases, but humanists are having to deal largely with the illnesses they have come about by man's lifestyle. We pay for medicines to make us better and we pay for food that is not the healthest it could be.

    The very best of medicine and hospitals do not compare to the way, God cured people of their sickness and infirmities within seconds. Consider the man born blind, not only was he given sight (not restored vision) but he had instant recognition even though he had never seen anything before he had vision. Science is not even close to being able to cure like that.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Humans are limited and have the God-given capacity to explore and acquire knowledge. Whatever we find out, God knows already.

    The fact that people did not describe the universe in ways we know how vast the universe is, is not evidence to say that their limited view changes anything with regards to belief in a Creator. Scienc admits it does not know a lot. Astrophysics is not done and dusted, there is a lot which is not testable and proof is often based on speculation. When scientists speak, to give them their due, they speak with lots of uncertainty that is expressed in the words that convey uncertainty. like the words; "probably".

    Humanism can only do what is said in the video, but it does nothing to disprove God exists.
    As for knocking the end of the word doomsdy predictors, those people have been premature in their announcements. It does not change the word of God that is still being fufilled. Humanists are just as flawed as those who have been flawed in their understanding of God' word. Fundamentally, God's promises and God's prophecies have not failed and there is still prophecy to be fulfilled. The signs are building up that is pointing towards The Great Day of the LORD. Jesus cannot return until certain things have been fulfilled. The master plan is still working to time, even if we cannot pinpoint accurately the dates prohecies remaining will be fulfilled.
    Hello David,

    The point of Humanism is not to disprove god, but rather to live life to its fullest without superstitious fears imposed upon them by man-made deities.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Humanists can claim to have invented medicines and cured diseases, but humanists are having to deal largely with the illnesses they have come about by man's lifestyle. We pay for medicines to make us better and we pay for food that is not the healthest it could be.

    The very best of medicine and hospitals do not compare to the way, God cured people of their sickness and infirmities within seconds. Consider the man born blind, not only was he given sight (not restored vision) but he had instant recognition even though he had never seen anything before he had vision. Science is not even close to being able to cure like that.
    Humans have cured diseases and created medicines to help people, which exceeds gods record by 100%. Yes, many illnesses are cause by our lifestyles, but diseases and suffering caused by bacteria, viruses, genetic birth defects and natural disasters far and exceed any human caused illnesses.

    If god exists as you say, why does he allow all the suffering that comes through natural causes, when he could cure people within seconds? The naturalistic explanation is logical ... bad things happen and are no ones fault, whereas the believers are stuck with thinking that god could heal people, but he doesn't want to because people are sinful and unworthy.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
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  4. #4
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    The Truth Wears Off...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The most basic method for finding out what is true, is to test your theory against the evidence.
    You may find the following two articles compelling as they directly relate to 'truth' in the scientific testing of evidence - and how the results are often left to the interpretation of the scientist conducting the experiment(s):

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...ruth-wears-off

    http://www.lastwordonnothing.com/201...ture-of-truth/
    Respectfully,
    Mark
    An unsupported statement is not an argument; it is only an opinion.
    Eschew obfuscation.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    You may find the following two articles compelling as they directly relate to 'truth' in the scientific testing of evidence - and how the results are often left to the interpretation of the scientist conducting the experiment(s):

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...ruth-wears-off

    http://www.lastwordonnothing.com/201...ture-of-truth/
    Interesting articles, thanks for sharing. Fortunately there is enough solid results from the scientific method of testing and experimentation to allow rockets to be built and sent to the moon, computers to map the human genome, along with countless other items that our modern world depends on to function. All in all the scientific method of experimentation remains extremely solid as a means of attaining dependable results.

    Kind regards,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The point of Humanism is not to disprove god, but rather to live life to its fullest without superstitious fears imposed upon them by man-made deities.
    True, since God can be neither proven nor disproven. Following is the definition of humanism from several scholarly sources:
    “A rationalistic system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters.” (Oxford English Dictionary)

    “The rejection of religion in favour of the advancement of humanity by its own efforts.” (Collins Concise Dictionary)

    “…a non-religious philosophy, based on liberal human values.” (Little Oxford Dictionary)

    “…seeking, without religion, the best in, and for human beings.” (Chambers Pocket Dictionary)

    “…an appeal to reason in contrast to revelation or religious authority as a means of finding out about the natural world and destiny of man, and also giving a grounding for morality… Humanist ethics is also distinguished by placing the end of moral action in the welfare of humanity rather than in fulfilling the will of God.” (Oxford Companion to Philosophy)

    Humanists have made a choice in which they actively reject any and all religions that support the existence of a god/goddess or gods/goddesses. On the other hand, theists and deists have made a choice to accept a god/goddess, or gods/goddesses, and thereby to accept religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Humans have cured diseases and created medicines to help people, which exceeds gods record by 100%. Yes, many illnesses are cause by our lifestyles, but diseases and suffering caused by bacteria, viruses, genetic birth defects and natural disasters far and exceed any human caused illnesses.
    Following is the same quote by someone who truly rejects the existence of any god(s)/goddess(es) and so does not bring it up within the quote:
    Humans have cured diseases and created medicines to help people. Yes, many illnesses are cause by our lifestyles, but diseases and suffering caused by bacteria, viruses, genetic birth defects and natural disasters far and exceed any human caused illnesses.

    Natural causes do indeed far and exceed any human caused illnesses.

    Now, what might someone who does believe in god(s)/goddess(es) think about Rose’s quote above? I choose to believe in God, and the thing that struck me about the quote is the idea that – if God created everything – are not humans using material that God created to cure diseases? Within a theistic belief system, are not humans using a mind, which God created, to synthesize cures for illnesses – some of which humans created in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    If god exists as you say, why does he allow all the suffering that comes through natural causes, when he could cure people within seconds? The naturalistic explanation is logical ... bad things happen and are no ones fault, whereas the believers are stuck with thinking that god could heal people, but he doesn't want to because people are sinful and unworthy.
    If humanists were all that were left of humanity and they were somehow able to create a perfect Utopian word in which no suffering of any kind is ever inflicted by the natural world itself, do you believe that this perfect Utopian world would somehow make everyone behave perfectly? Do you suppose that a perfect world would somehow enable you to always get along perfectly with other human beings, or that you would never argue, or that you would never have strife with your fellow man and woman? Do you believe that every person living in this perfect Utopian world would miraculously stop placing their own needs first – that they would perfectly live the Silver Rule?

    Now, if God does exist—and He had chosen to create a perfect utopia—a perfect global garden, for instance, how do you suppose you would react and interact with other people in this perfect world?

    I do not believe that human nature—as it exists today—would accept a perfect Utopian world. I believe that our own selfish nature will always assert itself and, in so doing, would destroy any paradise of our own making.

    Even if God decided today to cure every hurt caused by the natural world (interfering in the affairs of mankind)—I believe that mankind would still rebel against God and they would site God’s interference as the reason.
    Respectfully,
    Mark
    An unsupported statement is not an argument; it is only an opinion.
    Eschew obfuscation.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    Now, what might someone who does believe in god(s)/goddess(es) think about Rose’s quote above? I choose to believe in God, and the thing that struck me about the quote is the idea that – if God created everything – are not humans using material that God created to cure diseases? Within a theistic belief system, are not humans using a mind, which God created, to synthesize cures for illnesses – some of which humans created in the first place?
    Good afternoon Mark,

    Let's look at the two possibilities:

    1) The natural universe is all that exists. People evolved and slowly learned to use natural substances to cure diseases in accordance with natural law.

    2) God created everything with the intent that humans would suffer needlessly for millennia until their knowledge advanced and they independently discovered the cures He had hidden in nature but never told anyone about. During that long nightmare of history, he chose to ignore the vast majority of their prayers, letting parents watch their children die horrible deaths from diseases that now are easily cured, even as he listened to their pathetic begging and pleading and praying to their "trustworthy God." He remained silent, watching as they slowly died utter misery. And the ultimate irony - humans discovered the cures only after they began to free themselves from the bondage of religion.

    That's the picture I see implicit in the solution you suggested. Simply stated, I can not imagine how anyone could entertain it for a second.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    If humanists were all that were left of humanity and they were somehow able to create a perfect Utopian word in which no suffering of any kind is ever inflicted by the natural world itself, do you believe that this perfect Utopian world would somehow make everyone behave perfectly? Do you suppose that a perfect world would somehow enable you to always get along perfectly with other human beings, or that you would never argue, or that you would never have strife with your fellow man and woman? Do you believe that every person living in this perfect Utopian world would miraculously stop placing their own needs first – that they would perfectly live the Silver Rule?
    Your premises seem very strange and unnatural to me. I do not believe that a "perfect Utopia" is a meaningful possibility. To a naturalist like myself, suffering is part of the natural world and will never be eliminated entirely. This is because we are mortal beings made of matter that can be broken, corrupted, diseased, destroyed by accident. A big part of the excitement of life involves pushing ourselves past our limits, and so we injure ourselves unintentionally. And no matter how wonderful a world we make, we are still finite with differing motivations and drives, and anything that came close to a "utopia" would allow for much freedom, and with freedom comes conflict between free agents. Your idea of "perfect behavior" sounds suggesting there could be a "perfect painting" or "perfect song" or "perfect dance" as if there could only be one kind. That seems like a very diminished view of life and art and song.

    The Golden Rule remains what it always has been: the Foundation of all morality which is based fundamentally on our own humanity and empathy and logic. No God required. Indeed, no God could add an ounce of meaning to the morality we derive from the Golden Rule. It stands in light of its own reason, as stated by Professor McIver whom I quoted in my article An Atheist Foundation for Objective Morality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    Now, if God does exist—and He had chosen to create a perfect utopia—a perfect global garden, for instance, how do you suppose you would react and interact with other people in this perfect world?
    I think I'd kill myself. It sounds perfectly horrid. I am not a plant. I don't want to live in a "perfect garden" with nothing to challenge me, with nothing to achieve, nothing worth doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    I do not believe that human nature—as it exists today—would accept a perfect Utopian world. I believe that our own selfish nature will always assert itself and, in so doing, would destroy any paradise of our own making.
    As I said, your concept of a "perfect Utopian world" seems to me to be quite unnatural. It comes from your ancient religious book, which is why it looks like the product of an underdeveloped imagination of primitive people who suffered a lot the real world and dreamed of a magical wonder-world of "perfect peace" like a garden (which was quite natural to the desert dwelling tribes that suffered constantly in the Middle East).

    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    Even if God decided today to cure every hurt caused by the natural world (interfering in the affairs of mankind)—I believe that mankind would still rebel against God and they would site God’s interference as the reason.
    Rebel? What are you talking about? Who "rebels" against God? Look around you. You see people of every nation, tribe, and creed living good and loving lives. How are they "rebelling"? The only thing I could think you mean is that they are "rebelling" against the religious dogmas you have chosen to believe. Religious dogmas are not God.

    Though we differ deeply, I am really enjoying the conversation.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    Humanists have made a choice in which they actively reject any and all religions that support the existence of a god/goddess or gods/goddesses. On the other hand, theists and deists have made a choice to accept a god/goddess, or gods/goddesses, and thereby to accept religion.
    Hello Mark

    It also could be put another way. Humanists have made a choice to only accept that which has evidence to support its claims. The reason that non-believers reject religion is not because they posit a god, but because they have no evidence to support the god they posit ... all gods are believed on faith not fact.



    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post

    Now, what might someone who does believe in god(s)/goddess(es) think about Rose’s quote above? I choose to believe in God, and the thing that struck me about the quote is the idea that – if God created everything – are not humans using material that God created to cure diseases? Within a theistic belief system, are not humans using a mind, which God created, to synthesize cures for illnesses – some of which humans created in the first place?
    Using your logic ... if god created everything, then why did he create diseases that humans have to try and figure out a cure for? Doesn't the creator have control over what he creates? Under your theistic belief system humans have no choice but to try and find cures for the diseases that god created.


    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    If humanists were all that were left of humanity and they were somehow able to create a perfect Utopian word in which no suffering of any kind is ever inflicted by the natural world itself, do you believe that this perfect Utopian world would somehow make everyone behave perfectly? Do you suppose that a perfect world would somehow enable you to always get along perfectly with other human beings, or that you would never argue, or that you would never have strife with your fellow man and woman? Do you believe that every person living in this perfect Utopian world would miraculously stop placing their own needs first – that they would perfectly live the Silver Rule?

    Now, if God does exist—and He had chosen to create a perfect utopia—a perfect global garden, for instance, how do you suppose you would react and interact with other people in this perfect world?

    I do not believe that human nature—as it exists today—would accept a perfect Utopian world. I believe that our own selfish nature will always assert itself and, in so doing, would destroy any paradise of our own making.

    Even if God decided today to cure every hurt caused by the natural world (interfering in the affairs of mankind)—I believe that mankind would still rebel against God and they would site God’s interference as the reason.
    Whether people rebel against god or not, does not answer the question as to why god does not cure people of the diseases he created, and alleviate the suffering of humanity. It doesn't matter what humans do to each other, the question is why doesn't god answer the prayers of those who are pleading for his help?

    Everything we see in the world around us makes perfect sense if one believes in naturalism, but not so much in a theistic belief system. Under your theistic belief system one has to continually make up reasons and excuses for why god never does anything to alleviate all the suffering in the world.

    Kind regards,
    Rose
    Last edited by Rose; 10-18-2014 at 05:29 PM.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    It also could be put another way. Humanists have made a choice to only accept that which has evidence to support its claims. The reason that non-believers reject religion is not because they posit a god, but because they have no evidence to support the god they posit ... all gods are believed on faith not fact.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Using your logic ... if god created everything, then why did he create diseases that humans have to try and figure out a cure for? Doesn't the creator have control over what he creates? Under your theistic belief system humans have no choice but to try and find cures for the diseases that god created.
    My answer to this question is based solely on faith and is not something that I am able to prove. Please read this next reply with that in mind.

    I believe, by faith, that God originally created the world as a Utopia which had no disease. I believe that when mankind chose to rebel against God, that mankind's 'fall' corrupted the world which God had made. I believe that all life after the 'fall' became corrupt, and that this corruption introduced disease to the world. Again, this is what I believe, although I obviously have no proof. It is likely that, because you don't believe in an a higher power, you think my belief system to be delusional, but I prefer to think that I am merely hopeful.

    When I inevitably die, and I find myself standing before God, I will grateful that I was able to live my life with hope.

    If, however, your system of belief is correct no one will ever know - and I will still have lived with hope. False hope to be sure, but it is still hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Whether people rebel against god or not, does not answer the question as to why god does not cure people of the diseases he created, and alleviate the suffering of humanity. It doesn't matter what humans do to each other, the question is why doesn't god answer the prayers of those who are pleading for his help?
    Working under the assumption that God exists, no one can reasonably expect for me to know the mind of God. In order for me to know what God thinks, why He makes any particular decision, would necessarily mean that I would have to either be God or greater than God.

    A non-existent god does not create diseases.

    I don't believe that my God created diseases, I accept that He allowed them to exist as a result of the 'fall', but not that He created them. Once again, this is my belief.

    It doesn't matter what humans do to each other? Really, Rose!? You champion equal rights for women in nearly every post you make. You have a website dedicated to the cause. I must be misunderstanding the intent of your words here because I know, based on many of your other posts, that you don't believe what you wrote here.

    "The question is why doesn't god answer the prayers of those who are pleading for his help"

    I repeat, I don't know the mind of God. I believe I know the answer to this question, but I know that you'll never accept my reason. This makes answering the question pointless because you would reject any god that is not as you think it should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Everything we see in the world around us makes perfect sense if one believes in naturalism, but not so much in a theistic belief system. Under your theistic belief system one has to continually make up reasons and excuses for why god never does anything to alleviate all the suffering in the world.
    Your constant juxtaposition between speaking as if you are a theist, so that you can immediately tear down your own argument as an atheist is tiresome.

    You also make a lot assumptions, which you state as fact, about who-what-when-where-and why other people believe.

    Please, expand on my theistic belief system, and tell me what reasons and excuses have I made up to explain what God does or does not do? Just remember that I don't know what you're thinking either, yet you have no problem accepting this as an excuse for me being unable to explain why you never do certain things.

    =========================

    Unlike some, I am informing you know that I am intentionally changing topics here:

    I am curious, do you believe that there is ever a just reason for corporal punishment, or do you believe that corporal punishment is wrong under all circumstances?


    Do you believe their is ever a just reason to carry out the death penalty, or do you believe that the death penalty is wrong under all circumstances?
    Respectfully,
    Mark
    An unsupported statement is not an argument; it is only an opinion.
    Eschew obfuscation.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post


    My answer to this question is based solely on faith and is not something that I am able to prove. Please read this next reply with that in mind.

    I believe, by faith, that God originally created the world as a Utopia which had no disease. I believe that when mankind chose to rebel against God, that mankind's 'fall' corrupted the world which God had made. I believe that all life after the 'fall' became corrupt, and that this corruption introduced disease to the world. Again, this is what I believe, although I obviously have no proof. It is likely that, because you don't believe in an a higher power, you think my belief system to be delusional, but I prefer to think that I am merely hopeful.

    When I inevitably die, and I find myself standing before God, I will grateful that I was able to live my life with hope.

    If, however, your system of belief is correct no one will ever know - and I will still have lived with hope. False hope to be sure, but it is still hope.



    Working under the assumption that God exists, no one can reasonably expect for me to know the mind of God. In order for me to know what God thinks, why He makes any particular decision, would necessarily mean that I would have to either be God or greater than God.

    A non-existent god does not create diseases.

    I don't believe that my God created diseases, I accept that He allowed them to exist as a result of the 'fall', but not that He created them. Once again, this is my belief.
    Hello Mark,

    I find it strange that on one hand you say that you cannot be expected to know the mind of god, yet on the other hand you introduce the idea that diseases were created by the fall and that god allows disease to randomly afflict whosoever it will.


    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    It doesn't matter what humans do to each other? Really, Rose!? You champion equal rights for women in nearly every post you make. You have a website dedicated to the cause. I must be misunderstanding the intent of your words here because I know, based on many of your other posts, that you don't believe what you wrote here.[/SIZE]

    "The question is why doesn't god answer the prayers of those who are pleading for his help"

    I repeat, I don't know the mind of God. I believe I know the answer to this question, but I know that you'll never accept my reason. This makes answering the question pointless because you would reject any god that is not as you think it should be.
    I'm glad you realize that my words were to be taken in the context of focusing on the role that your god plays in human suffering, and not what people do to each other. Of course I care about how humans treat each other ... that should be pretty obvious!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    Originally Posted by Rose
    Everything we see in the world around us makes perfect sense if one believes in naturalism, but not so much in a theistic belief system. Under your theistic belief system one has to continually make up reasons and excuses for why god never does anything to alleviate all the suffering in the world.

    Your constant juxtaposition between speaking as if you are a theist, so that you can immediately tear down your own argument as an atheist is tiresome.

    You also make a lot assumptions, which you state as fact, about who-what-when-where-and why other people believe.

    Please, expand on my theistic belief system, and tell me what reasons and excuses have I made up to explain what God does or does not do? Just remember that I don't know what you're thinking either, yet you have no problem accepting this as an excuse for me being unable to explain why you never do certain things.
    You just got through making up reasons as to why your god didn't create disease, stating that it was a result of the fall and man's corruption that caused disease to be created and enter the world. The conclusions I draw are solely from the words you write.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    Unlike some, I am informing you know that I am intentionally changing topics here:

    I am curious, do you believe that there is ever a just reason for corporal punishment, or do you believe that corporal punishment is wrong under all circumstances?

    Do you believe their is ever a just reason to carry out the death penalty, or do you believe that the death penalty is wrong under all circumstances?
    I gather you are asking me two questions: one on whether or not I believe in corporal punishment, and the other on the death penalty "Capital punishment"?

    First, generally speaking I do not believe in inflicting physical punishment as in striking a child, the exception is giving a small child a swat on the behind, or a slap on the hand. Violence only teaches violence and it's a hold over from a barbaric and primitive way of thinking.

    Secondly, I do not believe in the death penalty, even though I know there are people who deserve death for the crimes they commit. The taking of a life is final, and there have been far too many cases where errors have been made in convicting the wrong person of a crime.


    Hope that helps

    Kind regards,
    Rose

    Last edited by Rose; 10-19-2014 at 10:38 AM.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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