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  1. #11
    Ask you anything ...

    OK Richard, how did your hike go ? Actually I know because hiking in the Lords outdoors and Creation is awesome, although sometimes a little cold or wet, or dangerous, still it is awe-inspiring...... to the eyes, and ears.

    So did you hear the Lords voice when there. Did you hear the music of the spheres, or the whispering of the Holy Spirit ?

    This most likely will be determined by your carnal mind or logical mind, so can I ask whether you are an evolutionists or 'luck and chance' type person.

    And if so, as I assume for now, you probably are, why you are. And whether or not you scienticfically deduced this, spiritually deduced this, or just succombed to majority opinion on the subject?

    This even though if you have, then as with the discernment question above, you must have based your opinion on the opinions of others.

    Personally I believe in the science and math that show creation and templates and design and intelligence, but just wondering if you heard anything in your wealking trip or confirmed the idea of luck and chance in their religious belief system.

    Too smoky up here this summer for any walking trips.... and too smokey to even fish much.

    ATB

    David

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    Ask you anything ...

    OK Richard, how did your hike go ? Actually I know because hiking in the Lords outdoors and Creation is awesome, although sometimes a little cold or wet, or dangerous, still it is awe-inspiring...... to the eyes, and ears.
    Hey there David,

    Thanks for the interesting questions. I'll answer them in order. The hike went great. It was really refreshing to be out in the brisk air and early October snow. You can see a few flakes falling in this pic ...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    So did you hear the Lords voice when there. Did you hear the music of the spheres, or the whispering of the Holy Spirit ?
    Those are some very divergent metaphors. The "music of the spheres" originated with Plato long before Christianity. But that doesn't really matter since you seem to be telling me that I can make up whatever religion I like, and that there is no objectively demonstrable truth in any beliefs about Christianity and the Bible. Please correct me if I've misunderstood your position, but that's how I understood your response to my previous comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    This most likely will be determined by your carnal mind or logical mind, so can I ask whether you are an evolutionists or 'luck and chance' type person.

    And if so, as I assume for now, you probably are, why you are. And whether or not you scienticfically deduced this, spiritually deduced this, or just succombed to majority opinion on the subject?
    I am convinced by the evidence, and I believe you would be too if you understood it. So here are a few questions that need to be answered if the conversation is to progress:

    1) How do you discern between your "carnal/logical" mind and your "spiritual" mind? What advice would you give to a person who believes they are hearing from God when in fact they are deluded? If there are no objective facts, and you have nothing but your subjective judgment, what differentiates between truth and delusion? How could anyone tell?

    2) Do you have any understanding of the scientific theory of evolution, and the evidence that supports it? If not, why do you reject it? If so, how can you reject it? Do you reject the phylogenetic tree of life? Do you reject the fossil record and DNA evidence that mutually and independently confirm it?

    3) Do you understand that evolution is based on natural selection and DNA, and that though "luck and chance" play a role, it is absurd to suggest that there are no natural laws involved. Perhaps an example will help you understand. The result of a single roll a fair die is purely chance, but the result of many rolls is determined by statistical laws (each face will appear 1/6 of the time).

    I would love to discuss the evidence for evolution if you are interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    This even though if you have, then as with the discernment question above, you must have based your opinion on the opinions of others.
    No man is an island. We were all born into this world which is saturated with the opinions of others past and present. You had no choice about language you learned as a child and it filled your mind with many thoughts from others that you now use unconsciously. And the Bible you use as the basis of your beliefs, and from which you cherry pick, is nothing but the opinions of other humans written by the hands of other humans and passed down to you by other humans. I don't see how you could imagine that your thoughts are somehow independent from those of others.


    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    Personally I believe in the science and math that show creation and templates and design and intelligence, but just wondering if you heard anything in your wealking trip or confirmed the idea of luck and chance in their religious belief system.
    I've reviewed many of your arguments from "science and math" and have not found them convincing. It would be great if you picked one of your best arguments and started a thread so we can discuss it.


    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    Too smoky up here this summer for any walking trips.... and too smokey to even fish much.

    ATB

    David
    It was a horribly smoky summer here in Yakima. The sun was orange and visibility was down to about one mile for nearly two weeks during the worst of it. We had many wildfires. Where are you located? There air here is now very clear.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there David,



    Those are some very divergent metaphors. The "music of the spheres" originated with Plato long before Christianity.

    No the music of the spheres started at Creation when the Lord created it.. Plato or anyone labeling creation does not make them a creator, only a labeller. Besides Christianity started with Christ, who always was..... and was the Creator

    But that doesn't really matter since you seem to be telling me that I can make up whatever religion I like, and that there is no objectively demonstrable truth in any beliefs about Christianity and the Bible. Please correct me if I've misunderstood your position, but that's how I understood your response to my previous comments.

    (I told you no such thing, but told you to figure things out for yourself and dont be a dumb sheep and just follow others or excuse your religion or lack thereof because of others)

    I am convinced by the evidence, and I believe you would be too if you understood it. (No, there is no evidence for evolution, only the design and intelligence of designed intelligent Creation. Therefore I assume because you didn;t answer directly that you are an evolutionist and hence did not hear the Lords Voice in your walk or hike at any time...... Fair enough, and as expected if this is what you are saying.

    So here are a few questions that need to be answered if the conversation is to progress:

    1) How do you discern between your "carnal/logical" mind and your "spiritual" mind? . Differ ...a spiritual mind is logical, and leads you to verifiable truths and logical conclusions and discerning mysteries that are both spiritual and logical. Why do you separate the two. Besides as I mentioned, the truth has be verifiable, as a good science, determine the truth through experience and testing rather than semantics and belief systems. Try and test the Lords words and truths, rather than theorise. Please reread my previous answer to you. Thanks

    What advice would you give to a person who believes they are hearing from God when in fact they are deluded? (Thats their problem, seek and ye shall find... be honest and you find truths. If you get deluded thats your fault as mentioned. People get what they deserve. The Lordf is just... besides they can change their minds and hearts, and change their direction and motivation. Again time, experience, and testing gives people a chance to change... SEE Christ for this principle..

    .If there are no objective facts, and you have nothing but your subjective judgment, what differentiates between truth and delusion? (There always objective facts and objective direct experiences in life...... for again as mentioned the Holy Spirit whispers and talks to people 24/7 and even in their sleep sometimes, so that none have excuses... None as in none. The Holy pirit talks to ALL as in ALL )

    How could anyone tell? (Youre being repetitive in your excuses Richard... you tell by experiencing and testing, and hence discerning. Your choice, your problem or your victory.)2)

    Do you have any understanding of the scientific theory of evolution, and the evidence that supports it? (Yes, I am a science graduate who was forced into evolution doctrine and NO they could not and would not field questions, and tried to fail me, but I knew the material but rejected as totally unscientific their theory. The dean passed me accordingly, because he knew from my papers that I knew the subject matter.

    If not, why do you reject it? If so, how can you reject it? Do you reject the phylogenetic tree of life? Do you reject the fossil record and DNA evidence that mutually and independently confirm it? (Evolution is a total lie, unbelieaveable ignorance of science, genetics, biology and science. Despicable lie.. (Yup you are an evolutionists,

    3) Do you understand that evolution is based on natural selection and DNA, and that though "luck and chance" play a role, it is absurd to suggest that there are no natural laws involved. Perhaps an example will help you understand. The result of a single roll a fair die is purely chance, but the result of many rolls is determined by statistical laws (each face will appear 1/6 of the time). (Natural selection is not a god and does not select, as their is no such thing as a beneficial mutation to select from... Zero as in ZERO. See evc forum etc etc etc etc.... evolutionists are dumber than their dumb theory and have no evidence which is why they get so angry when they have no answers

    I would love to discuss the evidence for evolution if you are interested. (Sure, but I love exactness and you wont have exactness nor an overall knowledge of science or biology.... as I stated previously.... evolutionists are not used to answering questions.

    No man is an island. We were all born into this world which is saturated with the opinions of others past and present. You had no choice about language you learned as a child and it filled your mind with many thoughts from others that you now use unconsciously. (Every person is responsible for the hand they have been dealt, as the Lord knows everyones details, histories circumstances exactly and their motivations, and deals with them accordingly. God is always just and fair.. ALWAYS and in the End or the Beginning

    And the Bible you use as the basis of your beliefs, and from which you cherry pick, is nothing but the opinions of other humans written by the hands of other humans and passed down to you by other humans. I don't see how you could imagine that your thoughts are somehow independent from those of others. (No I was a full time missionary, who married and had children all supported because we lived by faith, and He provided. Experience and real life educated me, not theories. You can have faith in your evolution that it will provide in a million years, I want living proof in the HERE and NOW and got it.





    I've reviewed many of your arguments from "science and math" and have not found them convincing. It would be great if you picked one of your best arguments and started a thread so we can discuss it. (Sure pic a topic, but you will have to study, rather than just try and deny.... it will take effort as it not based on luck and chance knowledge...

    Great chatting! (yup, and more chatting coming up, but at least I have discerned from you Richard, that your basis is evolution rather than direct evidence and proofs..... and it seems you are saying you never heard the Lords voice when walking through the Lords Creation. Thats prolematic, Bro, as that is usually the start of inquiry for those that do..... children hear that voice, until told not tooo or discouraged or forced away from hearing such wisperings of the Lord.

    Richard
    I and we are north of you..... in B.C. But this world is not our home, we're just a passin thru, if heavens not my home, then Lord what would I do....

    Always been an outdoorsman, hiker, fisherman, even becoming a fishing quide for a while...

    Until I fished a dead man out of the water on Vancouver Island... Now I'm a fisherman of men as Jesus said...at least I try and do my part. Onward Christian Soldiers

    David

  4. #14
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    Hey there David,

    Just a quick heads up. It's rather difficult to quote your response if you type it within the quote of my comments because when you click "Reply with Quote" the software only quotes the text you wrote and omits the quotes in your post.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there David,

    Those are some very divergent metaphors. The "music of the spheres" originated with Plato long before Christianity.

    No the music of the spheres started at Creation when the Lord created it.. Plato or anyone labeling creation does not make them a creator, only a labeller. Besides Christianity started with Christ, who always was..... and was the Creator
    Yes, the "music of the spheres" fits very well with the Christian worldview, but it is not actually dependent upon it, as should be obvious since Plato invented the concept long before Christianity appeared on the scene. You appear to be taking it literally when you say that Plato labeled "it" - what exactly does is the "it" to which the term applies? Is it just a metaphor for astrophysics?

    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    But that doesn't really matter since you seem to be telling me that I can make up whatever religion I like, and that there is no objectively demonstrable truth in any beliefs about Christianity and the Bible. Please correct me if I've misunderstood your position, but that's how I understood your response to my previous comments.

    (I told you no such thing, but told you to figure things out for yourself and dont be a dumb sheep and just follow others or excuse your religion or lack thereof because of others)
    Here's one of your comments I was thinking of. You had said "You dtermine what is the Word of God, Richard..others do not do that for you. You are personally responsible for selection and knowing." How is that different than making up your own religion? You suggestion sounds like total subjectivity. I wouldn't use such language when speaking of object scientific facts like the acceleration due to gravity or the boiling point of water. Though I can determine that for myself in the sense that I can make the measurements, my measurements must be objectively testable and reproduceable by others if there is any truth in them.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    I am convinced by the evidence, and I believe you would be too if you understood it. (No, there is no evidence for evolution, only the design and intelligence of designed intelligent Creation. Therefore I assume because you didn;t answer directly that you are an evolutionist and hence did not hear the Lords Voice in your walk or hike at any time...... Fair enough, and as expected if this is what you are saying.
    There are mountains of evidence that I find very convincing. I look forward to discussing it in detail with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    So here are a few questions that need to be answered if the conversation is to progress:

    1) How do you discern between your "carnal/logical" mind and your "spiritual" mind? . Differ ...a spiritual mind is logical, and leads you to verifiable truths and logical conclusions and discerning mysteries that are both spiritual and logical. Why do you separate the two. Besides as I mentioned, the truth has be verifiable, as a good science, determine the truth through experience and testing rather than semantics and belief systems. Try and test the Lords words and truths, rather than theorise. Please reread my previous answer to you. Thanks
    Ah, I didn't realize you were contrasting the "carnal" vs. "logical" mind when you wrote "This most likely will be determined by your carnal mind or logical mind". I thought you were equating them and contrasting them with the "spiritual" mind, since that's what many Christians do when they speak of "human logic" vs. the "mind of the spirit." Thanks for the clarification.

    I glad you are now speaking about "verifiable truths and logical conclusions" because those are things that can be objectively verified. Previously, it seemed you were saying that every person had to come to their own subjective conclusions (in which case there would be nothing to discuss).

    Science is the discipline by which we verify truths about the physical world. Evolution is one of the most strongly verified facts of reality.

    I have tried and tested the words in the Bible and found many true and many false, just as you have when you reject the writings of Paul. It appears we agree that the "Bible" (as commonly accepted by Christians) is not the "Word of God." You appear to accept some of the Biblical books, and some that are not in the Bible as the "Word of God," correct? Do you have a list? Is there any objective standard by which you make your selections?

    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    What advice would you give to a person who believes they are hearing from God when in fact they are deluded? (Thats their problem, seek and ye shall find... be honest and you find truths. If you get deluded thats your fault as mentioned. People get what they deserve. The Lordf is just... besides they can change their minds and hearts, and change their direction and motivation. Again time, experience, and testing gives people a chance to change... SEE Christ for this principle..
    I know it is "their problem" because it is actually everyone's problem! We are all in the same boat. The question is "How do we discern truth? What should we do to avoid delusion which all people are subject to?" The best answer we have come up with is LOGIC and SCIENCE, which are based on objective universal principles.

    It's not really correct to blame people for being deluded, since we are all born into this world ignorant and raised in cultures saturated with various delusions such as all the various versions of Islam, Christianity, and other ideologies prove quite conclusively. It takes a lot of work to discern truth from error. That was my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    .If there are no objective facts, and you have nothing but your subjective judgment, what differentiates between truth and delusion? (There always objective facts and objective direct experiences in life...... for again as mentioned the Holy Spirit whispers and talks to people 24/7 and even in their sleep sometimes, so that none have excuses... None as in none. The Holy pirit talks to ALL as in ALL )

    How could anyone tell? (Youre being repetitive in your excuses Richard... you tell by experiencing and testing, and hence discerning. Your choice, your problem or your victory.)2)
    I am sorry for the repetition, I'm just trying to get an answer to my point. Messages from the "Holy Spirit" are notoriously unreliable because they are fundamentally subjective. This should be obvious because the world is filled to overflowing with contradictory "messages" Christians claim they heard from the "Holy Spirit."

    Why do you call this basic fact an "excuse?" An excuse for what? It is a most sincere point I am trying to help you see. People who claim that they "know" something through a subjective experience are often deluded. I know we agree that many people who claim knowledge from the Holy Spirit are deluded. So what makes you different than them? If you say you have evidence, then your appeal to the Holy Spirit was unnecessary. And it makes no sense because your claim cannot be tested or verified.

    I hope you understand my point. Appealing to the Holy Spirit does not answer my question because deluded people appeal to the Holy Spirit too.

    We need to establish truth with facts. Evidence. Logic. Objectivity. Unverifiable subjective feelings about something a god may or may not have said in private is no help in our search for truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Do you have any understanding of the scientific theory of evolution, and the evidence that supports it? (Yes, I am a science graduate who was forced into evolution doctrine and NO they could not and would not field questions, and tried to fail me, but I knew the material but rejected as totally unscientific their theory. The dean passed me accordingly, because he knew from my papers that I knew the subject matter.
    I look forward to fielding all your questions. A good place to start would be why you reject the mutually confirming evidence of 1) They Phylogenetic Tree, 2) The Fossil Record, and 3) DNA.

    Have you ever read even one book written by an evolutionary scientist that explains the theory? One of the best is The Making of the Fittest: DNA and the Ultimate Forensic Record of Evolution. Here's a snippet from the intro:
    More accurate and rigorous than fiber or fingerprint analysis, and far more reliable than eyewitness testimony, DNA analysis can provide conclusive proof about who was or was not at the scene of a crime. The authority of DNA evidence ? led to a revolution in the criminal justice system and a vast increase in the use of DNA testing to both convict the guilty and exonerate the innocent. ?
    The power of DNA testing extends far beyond criminal justice. The determination of paternity is now definitive, and testing for carriers of genetic diseases is now routing, thanks to DNA science. but there is one arena where that power is not yet widely appreciated: in what one might call the philosophical realm.
    Just as the sequence of each individual?s DNA is unique, the sequence of each species? DNA is unique. Every evolutionary change between species, from physical form to digestive metabolism, is due to ? and recorded in ? changes in DNA. So, too, is the ?paternity? of species. DNA contains, therefore, the ultimate forensic record of evolution.

    I look forward to discussing this evidence with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    If not, why do you reject it? If so, how can you reject it? Do you reject the phylogenetic tree of life? Do you reject the fossil record and DNA evidence that mutually and independently confirm it? (Evolution is a total lie, unbelieaveable ignorance of science, genetics, biology and science. Despicable lie.. (Yup you are an evolutionists,
    Your comments directly contradict demonstrable facts. There is a mountain of evidence for evolution. It would be good if you began responding to the evidence rather than merely denying that it exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    3) Do you understand that evolution is based on natural selection and DNA, and that though "luck and chance" play a role, it is absurd to suggest that there are no natural laws involved. Perhaps an example will help you understand. The result of a single roll a fair die is purely chance, but the result of many rolls is determined by statistical laws (each face will appear 1/6 of the time). (Natural selection is not a god and does not select, as their is no such thing as a beneficial mutation to select from... Zero as in ZERO. See evc forum etc etc etc etc.... evolutionists are dumber than their dumb theory and have no evidence which is why they get so angry when they have no answers
    You are correct that natural selection does not "select" in the sense of a person making a choice, but that's not what the theory says so what's your point?

    Natural selection is a demonstrable fact. You can measure it happening in real time, as in this video:



    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Great chatting! (yup, and more chatting coming up, but at least I have discerned from you Richard, that your basis is evolution rather than direct evidence and proofs..... and it seems you are saying you never heard the Lords voice when walking through the Lords Creation. Thats prolematic, Bro, as that is usually the start of inquiry for those that do..... children hear that voice, until told not tooo or discouraged or forced away from hearing such wisperings of the Lord.

    Richard
    Your comment makes no sense. Evolution is based on and supported by an overwhelming mountain of evidence. You have yet to actually deal with any of it. Merely asserting it doesn't exist means nothing. I look forward to discussing the actual evidence with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    I and we are north of you..... in B.C. But this world is not our home, we're just a passin thru, if heavens not my home, then Lord what would I do....

    Always been an outdoorsman, hiker, fisherman, even becoming a fishing quide for a while...

    Until I fished a dead man out of the water on Vancouver Island... Now I'm a fisherman of men as Jesus said...at least I try and do my part. Onward Christian Soldiers

    David
    Yeah, the BC fires were really bad this year. Ours were bad too, but not as bad as yours. And the smoke from yours covered many states. It really sucked since I like hiking and biking.

    Speaking of which ... it's time for my ride. We have the day off because it's Columbus Day.

    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there David,

    Just a quick heads up. It's rather difficult to quote your response if you type it within the quote of my comments because when you click "Reply with Quote" the software only quotes the text you wrote and omits the quotes in your post. (Ahh to heck with it, my response, was very readable and in Red to differentiate it from your previous comments.... so allow me to use it once again...even though your attempts looked rather messed up because of my red letter inserting....)

    Yes, the "music of the spheres" fits very well with the Christian worldview, but it is not actually dependent upon it, as should be obvious since Plato invented the concept long before Christianity appeared on the scene. You appear to be taking it literally when you say that Plato labeled "it" - what exactly does is the "it" to which the term applies? Is it just a metaphor for astrophysics? (Not worldview Richard, creation view, universe view.... evolution tries to find a niche by staying within life that was already created to substantiate their luck and chance development in the middle cosmos, but gets even more insane when dealing with the macro or micro cosm.... The Lord created all forces, all matter, all life in one fell swoop... not little by little. The Music of the spheres is a factual concept... SEE and study http://www.davidjayjordan.com/MusicoftheSpheres.html besides it was Pathagorus, and to study him, you would have to study sacred geometry that relates math to distance, speed and time...by design.... from the Beginning

    Here's one of your comments I was thinking of. You had said "You dtermine what is the Word of God, Richard..others do not do that for you. You are personally responsible for selection and knowing." How is that different than making up your own religion? You suggestion sounds like total subjectivity. I wouldn't use such language when speaking of object scientific facts like the acceleration due to gravity or the boiling point of water. Though I can determine that for myself in the sense that I can make the measurements, my measurements must be objectively testable and reproduceable by others if there is any truth in them. (Yes facts are facts, use science, and your logical mind and study and know design, and the template of design. Know sacred geometry to know physics, to know mathematical prgressions and life. Evoution has nothing to do with logic and evidence, just theory on forced theory to comply with materialism using the religion of luck and chanc religion as its cornerstone... You have to fiure out the truths, Richard and all, rather than excusing yourself because others made mistakes or you made mistakes, get it right and stand on your own, rather than blaming others and whimping out. The Lord loves courage and strength and study and real testing of real principles.

    There are mountains of evidence that I find very convincing. I look forward to discussing it in detail with you. (No evolution board or christian forum I have been on, with my posts of over 2000,have ever shown any evidence for evolution, as they struggle and avoid explaining their wild octrine. Why because they have never answered any questions concerning their faith. They get angry, and censor when confronted with a debate. They have no answers and prove they dont now genetics or biology.

    Ah, I didn't realize you were contrasting the "carnal" vs. "logical" mind when you wrote "This most likely will be determined by your carnal mind or logical mind". I thought you were equating them and contrasting them with the "spiritual" mind, since that's what many Christians do when they speak of "human logic" vs. the "mind of the spirit." Thanks for the clarification.

    I glad you are now speaking about "verifiable truths and logical conclusions" because those are things that can be objectively verified. (yup...test out things rather than theory after insane theory... and besides none of us can wait a million years to see proofs of evolution...)

    Previously, it seemed you were saying that every person had to come to their own subjective conclusions (in which case there would be nothing to discuss). (No their subjective conclusions, or personal conclusions to what really exists and is real.....

    Science is the discipline by which we verify truths about the physical world. Evolution is one of the most strongly verified facts of reality. (No science is the laws and life and matter that the Lord created from the Beginning.... evolution has no facts and no mechanism for change..... its a pipe dream.. a religious theory, a secular theory to stop people from studying. http://www.davidjayjordan.com/Creati...Evolution.html
    The Lord created science, science did not create itself and it certainly did not create any laws..... nor evolved any laws into new laws...you cretainly will be in deep trouble if you try to say evolution created forces and laws... and developed them and perfected them.


    I have tried and tested the words in the Bible and found many true and many false, just as you have when you reject the writings of Paul. It appears we agree that the "Bible" (as commonly accepted by Christians) is not the "Word of God." You appear to accept some of the Biblical books, and some that are not in the Bible as the "Word of God," correct? Do you have a list? Is there any objective standard by which you make your selections? (Prophetic Books, or parts that are THUS SAITH THE LORD..... many books are readable and show truths and state historic facts and dates and events. These are worth reading, even the epistles are worth reading if you have ever forssaken all and followed Jesus.... into all the world. Otherwise none of it makes sense to you, because you never did what the Lord said to do. You are out of your league and have no experience as a missionary, because you never took the Lords challenge and did what He said to do.... Again Richard you will not be speaking out of experience, but just theory and yourt carnal mind.

    I know it is "their problem" because it is actually everyone's problem! We are all in the same boat. The question is "How do we discern truth? What should we do to avoid delusion which all people are subject to?" The best answer we have come up with is LOGIC and SCIENCE, which are based on objective universal principles. I answered this questiontwice before, and you keep missing it. Yes, you must test out the Lords words and principles and discover whether they work.... thats science.... its not guesstimation and theory and semantics ...its a testing and discovery of truths... we test it and find out whether the Lord will supply and protect and provide. Evolution is mere theory on theory. Christianity is real life and real experiences and really KNOWING the Lord. You admit you did not know the Lord, Richard, so maybe your problem is you never tested out HIS WORDS, and maybe never even meet HIm in the first place)

    It's not really correct to blame people for being deluded, since we are all born into this world ignorant and raised in cultures saturated with various delusions such as all the various versions of Islam, Christianity, and other ideologies prove quite conclusively. It takes a lot of work to discern truth from error. That was my point. (As mentioned the Lord is fair and just, thats what you learn from a personal walk with Him or when hearing from Him or from reading His words.... all will be dealt with accordingly..... according to their cultures etc... etc etc.... as these differences are what the heathen keep harping on, as if they would be more fair than the righteous and just Jesus. They always have so many excuses, excuses and more excuses. The Lord knows each heart and everyones motivation in their actions... Amen ?

    I am sorry for the repetition, I'm just trying to get an answer to my point. Messages from the "Holy Spirit" are notoriously unreliable because they are fundamentally subjective. This should be obvious because the world is filled to overflowing with contradictory "messages" Christians claim they heard from the "Holy Spirit." (Suck it up world, and people...you are responsible for what the Holy Ghost has spoken to you, and She does whisper to each and every person on Earth.... you cant tell the Holy Ghost I never heard from you. It wont cut it. You and all and I and everyne is responsible. Its called maturity.....)

    Why do you call this basic fact an "excuse?" An excuse for what? (Its an excuse to lay the lame on others for our own mistakes. The Holy Spirit is not notoriously unreliable as you state categorically... but if that is your conclusion, then just stick by it, and blame the Holy Ghost now and in the future.... Your choice, your responsibility...and we are back to maturity. The Lord doesnt deal with people in groups or passports or age groups, or genders, or religions, He deals with them personally.... directly, individually ! Its an esay concept to understand and learn..)

    It is a most sincere point I am trying to help you see. People who claim that they "know" something through a subjective experience are often deluded. (So what, their problem, their delusion... the Lord gives people what they deserve and want. He says seek and ye shall find... if people dont find or seek, they can;t blame HIM. The blame game doesn;t work, excuses dont work....

    I know we agree that many people who claim knowledge from the Holy Spirit are deluded. So what makes you different than them? If you say you have evidence, then your appeal to the Holy Spirit was unnecessary. And it makes no sense because your claim cannot be tested or verified. (Richard, the truth is not dictated by our belief systems, the truth is just the truth, regardless of how many beliee it or not. If you say the Holy Spirit is unreliable, then man up, and stand by your opinion, or delusion, or fact. You'll find out in the end, even tough it would be better if you get it right in he here and NOW.

    I hope you understand my point. Appealing to the Holy Spirit does not answer my question because deluded people appeal to the Holy Spirit too. (yes, youre not getting it, Richard and are back to blaming others, and exusing yourself by their confusion or their misssing the Mark.
    You can only chane yourself Richard, and choose for yourself.... choose wisely)


    We need to establish truth with facts. Evidence. Logic. Objectivity. Unverifiable subjective feelings about something a god may or may not have said in private is no help in our search for truth. (If thats your truth, buck up and stand by it. If you say God is unverifiable, then dont study design and intelligence and math, physics, chemistry and biology etc etc..... dont study history and historic lessons. Just throw your hands up in the air and say, there is no help for our search for ruth, or say there is no truth.


    Your comments directly contradict demonstrable facts. There is a mountain of evidence for evolution. It would be good if you began responding to the evidence rather than merely denying that it exists.


    You are correct that natural selection does not "select" in the sense of a person making a choice, but that's not what the theory says so what's your point? (evolutionists deny deny, and then deny some more.... and absolutely refuse to answer questions, they demand answers but refuse to give any, and then change horses and details and facts. And when caught in ignorance, chnage the subject and try to attack because they getdefeated at every turn. There is no such thing as an intelligentevolutionist.

    Natural selection is a demonstrable fact. You can measure it happening in real time, as in this video:

    NO, evolutionist think color change in the British moth is their cornerstone and proof, when it shows divergence, as with a chamelion... evolutionists are so despersate for any type of proof for their faltering faith. SEE EVC forum and one fo te maybe twenty threads I started there, or Christian forums, where I started about twenty threads as well

    Your comment makes no sense. Evolution is based on and supported by an overwhelming mountain of evidence. (NO)

    You have yet to actually deal with any of it. Merely asserting it doesn't exist means nothing. I look forward to discussing the actual evidence with you.


    Yeah, the BC fires were really bad this year. Ours were bad too, but not as bad as yours. And the smoke from yours covered many states. It really sucked since I like hiking and biking.

    Speaking of which ... it's time for my ride. We have the day off because it's Columbus Day. (Yikes, Columbuis statues are supposedly going to be desicrated today):

    biking_better:
    IN answering you might have to delete, some parts to make it clear...anyway this respojnse will be clear and stand out because of the red lettering of mine.

    All the best in the Lords great outoors..... for every breth we take is by His Grace.

    LIJ

    David

    I have a topic HERE already that nobody posted in... and shall start a new one, concerning your inference hat evolution created forces and laws.... and physics.

  6. #16
    Richard, let the debate begin on the Evolution sub-board.

    For possible topics consider, any of my previous threads

    http://www.evcforum.net/Threads.php?...tml&mbrid=2925

    Theres 1026 posts and threads from me ABOVE.

    But I find evolutionists rude and crude and slanderous when they have no answers. They were very evasive, and very contradictory and instead of explaining their theory or religion, they said I didn;t understand their theory. Yet they couldnt explain their own theory to anyone. They claim to be scientists but never questioned their theory or had any proofs for their theory. And so ultimately they have to censor or delete. Oh well thats their m.o.

    Also look up my posts HERE

    https://www.worthychristianforums.co...avidjayjordan/

    https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=730477#730477

    Once you realize that JESUS wasn't just the son of Mary, wasn't just a good teacher and prophet, and isn't just
    a way to get access to the Father for a few of your requests, but that He, Jesus is the Creator Himself, then
    everything starts to change. Jesus will no longer then be a mere stepping stone, as so many churchy people
    believe.
    PS) To know how to receive Him....Click on Salvation God bless you if you do, and much, much more


    From http://www.davidjyjordan.com/Jesusisthecreator.html

    His Design of beauty and power is the Golden Section.... He consistentlantly used His mathematics to design the world and make sure everything is and was in harmony..... not semantics but vibrational harmony of distances speeds, times, and ALL.


    Warning Moderator Warning

    This post not only violates the rules on preaching, it is an active effort to proselytize. Please read the forum rules and the "Guidelines on Preaching."
    It is also SPAM promoting a blog. SPAM posts may have their URL's deleted, modified, or disabled.


    The above was funny, because it was a supposed Christian forum.... they'll do anything to ban you.... anyway back to some other topics you can get into or have me explain as we BOTH try to answer the quiries of the ohter. The Key word being BOTH


    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/se...gmo-discussion

    Maybe this is easier for your searching..

    https://www.google.ca/search?q=evolu...96.gRvt5XX4dSA
    Last edited by davidjayjordan; 10-10-2017 at 06:28 AM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    (Yes, I am a science graduate who was forced into evolution doctrine and NO they could not and would not field questions, and tried to fail me, but I knew the material but rejected as totally unscientific their theory. The dean passed me accordingly, because he knew from my papers that I knew the subject matter.
    Thanks for the laugh David. Either you are lying about understanding the material or you are consciously lying about evolution to serve your perverted agenda.

    I caught you in so many contradictions and outright lies a several weeks back here and here. You proved beyond all doubt that my words are true.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix


  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    665
    Richard,

    Long time no talk. Glad to see you are back posting again. Hope all is well with you and Rose.

    I haven't been able to post most of the summer because I have been dealing with a torn rotator cuff. Finally got it repaired about a month ago. What a huge relief. Can't wait to start posting again.

    Gotta run for now. Talk more later.

    Justin
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix


  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by L67 View Post
    Thanks for the laugh David. Either you are lying about understanding the material or you are consciously lying about evolution to serve your perverted agenda.

    I caught you in so many contradictions and outright lies a several weeks back here and here. You proved beyond all doubt that my words are true.
    Evolutionist's modus operandi, is always the same, always. Exactly what L67 displays once again.

    They dont disprove what you write, they only call you a liar and that you are lying... but never engage in a debate... Ha, this even before I have even started a thread with Richard.

    But as literal proof of this name calling tactic, SEE all my hyperlinks from previous debates....

    For their name calling knows no end as that is all they have, because they can't be civil and they cant answer any questions about 'evolution'

    Thanks for again proving this L56,

    Ill start a new thread on the evoltion board so you can post your name calling there, or if you settle down and know any truths, facts, or have any opinions on evolution, you can post them there. But enough of this boring LYING< LYING < LYING.

  10. #20
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    Yakima, Wa
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    Quote Originally Posted by L67 View Post
    Richard,

    Long time no talk. Glad to see you are back posting again. Hope all is well with you and Rose.

    I haven't been able to post most of the summer because I have been dealing with a torn rotator cuff. Finally got it repaired about a month ago. What a huge relief. Can't wait to start posting again.

    Gotta run for now. Talk more later.

    Justin
    Hey there Justin,

    Great to see you found your way back. Sorry to hear about your injury. Glad to hear it is better. Rose and I are doing great. We both put in about a 100 miles a week on our bicycles, and usually get in a mountain hike on the weekend. We are exploring our freedom to be what we want to be ... unlimited by dogmas and ideologies.

    Well, I gotta go over the evolution sub-forum and answer David's objections to the theory.

    Talk more soon!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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