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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there Joe!

    It's kinda funny to be "welcomed" to my own forum! But it makes sense and I do appreciate it since I've been "missing in action" for quite a few months. I really got tired of arguing in circles. It just didn't seem to be going anywhere. But now, after many months of relaxation and reflection, I feel ready to resume discourse from my more mellow frame of mind. I think I finally realized that the primary thing I want to avoid is ideology. Whether in politics or religion, I don't see the value of being an "ideologue." Maybe it's impossible to really free ourselves from ideology, but I'm gonna do my best. And even if it is impossible to really be free, at least I can point it out when I see it and strive to put reason, rationality, and basic humanity above ideology.

    Great to be chatting again my friend.

    Richard

    PS: I've fixed a lot of things on the forum. I made the whole site SSL secure, and fixed the problem with email notifications. Let me know if you see anything else that needs fixing.
    There's nothing wrong with an idealists. What would humankind evolve into without rational thinking. I know the debate on eschatology (and especially politics) can be painful. That's what happens when too many differing idealists clash together. You could say that the sole purpose of our existence is to un-divide ourselves, and learn to come to the same page or way of thinking, and therefore of the same mind. But we are only human after all, which would explain our divisive and argumentative nature. I hope that after my presentation of Revelation, you will find a new love for this book. It really isn't all that complicated, unless you're a Futurist who has to twist every single passage into oblivion until its literal or spiritual meaning is impossible to understand unless someone tells you its meaning (interpolation).

    Speaking of the site, there is a major problem with the "Refresh Rate". As soon as I post this response, I have to "refresh" my browser in order to ensure that the message was posted. I have not been able to find the problem with the html coding just yet. Anytime changes are made to a discussion post, the forum should automatically refresh to the last known state. But that is not happening. So if one is not careful, and does not refresh the browser, and wants to edit a post, he or she will end up editing an older post, and the new changes made before the transition are lost.

    The problem has to do with the forum not refreshing or updating to its most current state.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  2. #12
    The problem Joe, is that prophecy deals with the future.... and conclusion of history, the culmination, climax of the greatest story ever told rather than 'move on folks, theres nothing more to see HERE from the Lord..He has stopped talking and everything is fulfilled and nothing more will happen.....

    To study Revelation, you have to stop dissecting word for word and interpret in the past ever verse...thats insanity and that separates the trees from the overall forest and its overall UNITY, HARMONY and COMPLETENESS.

    I can help you, as heres a comprehensive complete, harmonized and explanatable scenario of events timelines and complete books of prophecy.

    http://www.davidjayjordan.com/RevelationsTimeline.html

    Horizontal and easy to print up and study.

    The pasties have nothing and take away faith from the Lords Prophecy of the future.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    The problem Joe, is that prophecy deals with the future.... and conclusion of history, the culmination, climax of the greatest story ever told rather than 'move on folks, theres nothing more to see HERE from the Lord..He has stopped talking and everything is fulfilled and nothing more will happen.....

    To study Revelation, you have to stop dissecting word for word and interpret in the past ever verse...thats insanity and that separates the trees from the overall forest and its overall UNITY, HARMONY and COMPLETENESS.

    I can help you, as heres a comprehensive complete, harmonized and explanatable scenario of events timelines and complete books of prophecy.

    http://www.davidjayjordan.com/RevelationsTimeline.html

    Horizontal and easy to print up and study.

    The pasties have nothing and take away faith from the Lords Prophecy of the future.
    This is all just negative opinions on your part, and you've offered nothing to this discussion. If you want to debate Revelations, you are welcome to do that. But personal opinions serves nothing, and is one of the primary reasons why so many Churches are divided in the first place. The Greek words I dissected was necessary due to the fact that our English words have more than one meaning, whereas Greek words are often direct. If the adverb, "coming" is to be the same for every sentence, then the same Greek word should be used. But in the cases I've explained, there were two words used. Parousia is only used in the Gospels, and not in Revelation. Presence and coming again are two different meanings.

    As for Revelation being future, you are correct. But who's future are you talking about? YOURS or THEIRS? From their perspective, it was future. But because things didn't pan out the way YOU expect them, then in your mind it is all 100% percent future. But then that violates your own ideology of the plain meaning of the word. If short or near means short or near, then how can a distant future from their perspective be short or near?

    The correct way to discuss a topic is to first review what I have posted thus far, and offer your Biblical analysis of my presentations, and try your best to offer Biblical facts to oppose my view. Personal opinions are useless and does not do anything except waste the reader's time. I' sure the first century Jews rejected Jesus because of their opinions of He and the Law. And their opinions led them to the slaughter because they did not understand the Prophecies of God, and as a result crucified whom was to be their Lord and Savior.

    Finally, your passive attitude towards fulfilled prophesy is rather embarrassing. Revelation is a fulfilled book (mostly) and yet it (like all scripture) is profitable for instruction. What kind of a Christian are you to suggest that all fulfilled Prophesies are worthless, as though we are to simply overlook them? There are Old Testament Prophesies of Christ being persecuted; there are Prophesies of Christ being crucified on the cross! Does that mean we shouldn't pay any attention to those Prophesies? No! Those Prophesies validate our belief in His persecution, and crucifixion. It is the same with Revelation. And the fact that you do not understand Revelation, nor even the identity of the Christian Church, clearly shows you are looking for something better than what Christ has already established. He gave you a kingdom of Grace! He gave you a kingdom that keeps us from dying in our sins! He gave you a kingdom that teaches the truth about brotherly/sisterly love! What more do you need? I'm sorry my friend, but your attitude towards the Church concerns me. How could anyone view you as a Christian with the words you use?

    Do you not know that the Church exists because of His death on the cross? Do you not know that the early church Christians suffered immensely against both Jews of the flesh, and the Roman Empire, as well as the other nations as far as Ethiopia? They died as a testimony for all of us today. And their testimonies (through their very lives) costs them dearly, with their very blood! What suffering have we to worry about, except financial debt, a crooked government, and pornoagrphy? Our lives are nothing compared to what they endured, and both you and I owe them a great deal!

    Their testimonial lives serves as a witness to all generations forever. And so your passive attitude towards fulfilled Prophecy is immoral, sinful, and downright insulting to the tens of millions who lost their physical lives during the first three centuries since the heavenly Jerusalem was established on this earth (in the Christian Churches). Sure she comes under attack from time-to-time, and that's to be expected. How else can Christians throughout each generation be "refined in the fires"? All metals must be subjected to the flames in order to purify it. And without the fire, then no purification can be done. Christians grow through suffering, and God knows how much we are able to bare.

    Revelation validates the Kingdom of Christ (Christianity)! Revelations teaches us the do's and don't's within a Church! Revelation proves that Christ is King, and His Church is victorious from the first century, and onward forevermore. It served the early church as an inspiration of what they were going through, and it serves as instructions by examples of their steadfastness in the faith. So why anyone would want to set one of the most beautifully choreographed books aside because of it having been fulfilled in just flat out arrogant!

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 09-24-2017 at 12:52 PM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Hi LES! I will definitely check out the links you've provided. Oh, I had to edit the last post. After reading it, there were too many grammatical errors, and the structuring was no logical enough for me. I am trying to make this as easy as I can to read. I hope that you too will enjoy this. By the time I am done, I hope you will see that I am still a "Full Preterist" and that the Millennium had nothing to do with the 7 Feasts of Israel, but that the Millennium is all about God's Tabernacle with us since the first century. I was wanting to save this for last But I would like you to join in on this discussion....Futurists to as long as the Futurists do not try detracting this thread with worthless input. Please stick with me on this...I promise you will enjoy it.

    Give me a chance to watch the videos about John the Apostle or the Presbyter and perhaps we can start a new Thread on that topic.

    Joe

    I was reading this morning, David Chiltons' "The Days of Vengeance", 'An Exposition of the Book of Revelation', page 499-507 about the views of some on 'the Millennium'.

    The views of these pages seem to be very close to yours (I think). Looking at Satan being 'bound' and released for a little while at the final Judgement (sometime in the future ((?)) ).

    I will :note: that David Chilton when he wrote this book was NOT a Full Presterist, but changed his paradigm to that shortly after.

    Most of this book ('Days of Vengeance') is firmly in the Full Preterist paradigm of first century fulfillment.

    We will get to the Millennium dialog in the future as you get farther into Revelation.
    Brother Les

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    There's nothing wrong with an idealists. What would humankind evolve into without rational thinking. I know the debate on eschatology (and especially politics) can be painful. That's what happens when too many differing idealists clash together. You could say that the sole purpose of our existence is to un-divide ourselves, and learn to come to the same page or way of thinking, and therefore of the same mind. But we are only human after all, which would explain our divisive and argumentative nature. I hope that after my presentation of Revelation, you will find a new love for this book. It really isn't all that complicated, unless you're a Futurist who has to twist every single passage into oblivion until its literal or spiritual meaning is impossible to understand unless someone tells you its meaning (interpolation).

    Speaking of the site, there is a major problem with the "Refresh Rate". As soon as I post this response, I have to "refresh" my browser in order to ensure that the message was posted. I have not been able to find the problem with the html coding just yet. Anytime changes are made to a discussion post, the forum should automatically refresh to the last known state. But that is not happening. So if one is not careful, and does not refresh the browser, and wants to edit a post, he or she will end up editing an older post, and the new changes made before the transition are lost.

    The problem has to do with the forum not refreshing or updating to its most current state.

    Joe
    Hello Joe... Nice of you to invite Richard to partake in his own Forum.... .

    I will not speak fully for Richard, but I believe that he is a very honorable and honest man in laying out his views. Richard is very very good Biblical student. Many have debated the question of 'is there a god', and walked away from the established 'churchanity'. I know that I have a time or two, as it seems that Richard has. I respect that of him. i have drifted back to 'The Book', but not to churchanity. It seems to me that when Richard does engage in debate over 'scripture', he does so with the mindset of 'what does this book say'? What is logical? Richard seems to be of the (so-called) Preterist mindset of 'as reading what the book says, it points to a first century fulfillment'.

    Revelation starts as a letter to seven church about what is to happen 'soon', to their world.
    Brother Les

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    I was reading this morning, David Chiltons' "The Days of Vengeance", 'An Exposition of the Book of Revelation', page 499-507 about the views of some on 'the Millennium'.

    The views of these pages seem to be very close to yours (I think). Looking at Satan being 'bound' and released for a little while at the final Judgement (sometime in the future ((?)) ).

    I will :note: that David Chilton when he wrote this book was NOT a Full Presterist, but changed his paradigm to that shortly after.

    Most of this book ('Days of Vengeance') is firmly in the Full Preterist paradigm of first century fulfillment.

    We will get to the Millennium dialog in the future as you get farther into Revelation.
    I've never read any of his books. I wonder if he has any video's on Jew-Tube (YouTube).

    I don't want to spoil the Millennium just yet. We've got a long way to go before we get there. When I did this with Two-Spirits, I was still learning the book. But since that time, I've gain a great deal of knowledge and information and how Revelation uses language repeated in the Old Testament. I know the Millennium views I will present may seem as though I am a type of Partial Preterist, but it is only a tiny miniscule amount. The New Heaven and New Earth was still established in the first century, when the Old Covenant passed away in 70AD. The New Jerusalem began immediately after that as denoted in chapter 20 during the wedding supper and invitation to eat the flesh of people. I wonder if the "literalists" actually expect the birds of the air to eat the flesh of kings, princes, and all people. But when John sees the New Jerusalem (again established in 70AD), he was seeing her still victorious even after the Millenniums. The message is to show that this kingdom cannot be destroyed, having suffered attacks by the Beast in the first century, and suffering more attacks after the millenniums and still victorious. Rats! I'm kind of giving away my thoughts. Full and Partial Preterists, to also include the Futurists (all of them) assume that the New Jerusalem is not available until after the Millennium. So Futurists use this to force-fit Revelation into the future. Full and Partial Preterists assume the same thing, and so they try to force-fit the Millennium into the 40 years of preparation (30AD - 70AD), yet in my opinion, both are right and both are wrong. But, let's save that for the future. LOL But if you are really eager, let's you and I start another thread on the Millennium.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    I've never read any of his books. I wonder if he has any video's on Jew-Tube (YouTube).

    .
    I do not fully agree with everything that David Chilton wrote and he may not either when he wrote these. He was firmly at the time of his first writings a Partial Preterist.... He found that that paradigm was not fully Biblical and shifted in the last years of his life to a full Preterist. He was denounced by his domination as a heretic. But he never backed down after seeing Scripture as it should be seen and taught. If you listen to the mp3s, you will hear some interpretations that you do not agree with, but know that he did shift his paradiym after these lectures and books, but they are still very very good to read and study.

    http://www.preteristarchive.com/Stud...ton-david.html

    I have these three books.

    https://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs/21de_47e.htm

    https://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs/2226_47e.htm

    Go to page 5 of The Great Tribulation, the table of contents and you will see that it looks to be based in the first century timeline.

    https://www.garynorth.com/GreatTribulation.pdf
    Brother Les

  8. #18
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    Revelations 1:5

    5 To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. 8I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,? says the Lord, ?who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

    Due to the impatience of some, I will try covering more verses. But be advised it is necessary to "dissect" certain Greek words in order to correctly convey the intended message.

    We already know that Christ is the one who washed us of our sins through His blood. But what's important to note is the phrase, "he has made us kings and priests". This is stated by Peter in his letter:

    A Royal Priesthood; a Holy Nation; God's Special People

    1 Peter 2:9

    But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation; His special people...

    On a side note, this should confirm who God's chosen people are, whom are the Christians. Fleshly descent has nothing to do with whom God's chosen people are. It is those who believe in Christ Jesus, are washed in His blood through His Name (Jesus), and who thus become God's beloved people abiding in a "HOLY NATION". What is God's Holy Nation? The answer is, if you do not already know, is the New Jerusalem from above, and not the Jerusalem on land (Galatians 4:26, Hebrews 12:22). Yet the NJ exists on the earth through the Holy Church.

    As stated, this is repeated near the end of Revelation involving those of the "first resurrection" who are "priests of God". For now, keep that deep in thought and we will discuss this more when we get to Revelation 20.

    He Comes with the Clouds!

    No verse is often more misinterpreted than verse 7! Futurists expect Jesus to "come with the clouds" based on their perceptions of how His second coming will be, supposedly when all MUST see Christ flying in the sky. But this is because they are not familiar with the types of speech used in the Old Testament. Let us see if this phrase was used before.

    Jeremiah 4:13

    Behold, he shall come up like clouds, and his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered!

    This was a prophecy given to Jeremiah the Prophet foretelling the destruction of Jerusalem by the king of Babylon, Nebochegnedzar. Yet even during those days, has anyone ever seen God coming upon them like clouds? Did anyone see God come in chariots like a whirlwind? And has anyone ever seen God come upon them on a horse? Jeremiah used allegorical expressions to describe Jerusalem's first destruction. But only those who think like a Futurist and Literalist expect to see Jesus flying in the clouds of the sky.

    Folks, this is a metaphoric expression used to denote God's judgment upon Jerusalem using their enemies (in Jeremiah's case Babylon) to bring swift disaster and destruction upon them. Thus it was not Babylon that destroyed Jerusalem, but God who used Babylon! It is the same with Revelation. It was not Rome that destroyed Jerusalem, but God through Rome (as His mighty arm)! The clouds are metaphoric for describing dust, fire, and smoke filling the skies while massive armies attack the land and destroying anything in their path, leaving nothing but vapors of smoke as they burn homes and cities, and clouds of dust as their horses gallop into battle! God coming in the clouds is not a good thing, for it is a sign of His wrath; a time of devastation and death; a time of punishment for evil doing! This is further proven by the next verse.

    All on the Land/Earth (Israel) shall See Him; Even those who pierced Him!

    Jeremiah foretells of Jerusalem's destruction which would last for 70 years, which came and went. John foretells of Jerusalem's destruction that would happen forever, in the first century AD. Keep in mind we are referring to Jerusalem and Judah born of the flesh.

    Now is this destruction upon the "entire earth" or "land"? The Greek word used for "earth/land" is gEs, which is literally defined as land. It does not make sense to use the phrase "tribes of the earth" since not all nations of the earth are based on a tribe. Tribe is a term used for the 12 Tribes of Israel. And since Revelation focusses on the 12 Tribes of Israel, contextually speaking, the "tribes of the land" would be the correct interpretation. Young's Literal Translation uses "Land" instead of earth, and is thus correct. So the correct translation of Revelation 1:7 is:

    And all the Tribes of the land shall mourn because of Him.

    It is Christ who first built the 12 Tribes of Israel under the first covenant. And it is Christ who destroys most of the 12 Tribes of Israel under the first covenant through their own law. This is substantiated with the verse:

    I am the Alpha and the Omega; the Beginning and the End!

    The end of what? The world? Or the land? Obviously the land, since Old Testament Psalms states that the world abides forever. Plus the promise of God to Noah was He would never destroy all a life as He once did despite their sinning from youth. And as was told to Daniel the Prophet in chapter 9, his people's, temple, and city would have a final "end" after the 490 weeks from the time the temple was rebuilt, until the time the Messiah was cut off, and He completed His confirmation of the covenant (New Covenant) during the final week. God is the beginning and the ending of ancient Israel and that is the reason why Christ uses this phrase. He built the first covenant, and he ended the first covenant, thereby making him the "beginning and the ending", and the "alpha and the Omega" of the first covenant. The New Covenant has no end, and you will not find anywhere in scripture where the New Covenant has an ending. I challenge anyone to find in scripture where it states the New Covenant comes to an end. And if we are not in the New Covenant now, then we are still yoked to the Old Covenant, and hence the Old Heave and Old Earth.

    Who is, who was, and is to come!

    We see once again John uses the phrase "is to come", which (as a reminder) is to happen shortly, very soon, or is at hand.

    Conclusion:

    Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega; the beginning and the end as the coming clouds of chaos, death, and destruction upon the Tribes of the land of Israel. While we have not yet proven in our discussion that Jerusalem is the intended city to end, a hint is already given by the phrase, "even those who pierced Him", and also with the phrase, "the Tribes of the land shall mourn because of Him". These are clear references that the judgment of God is about to take place upon the Tribes of Israel, saving those who St. Paul refers to as, "The Remnant". Jesus is the beginning and ending of the city of those who pierced Him. But to those of whom He loves, they are a beloved people, a royal priest and kingdom.
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 09-25-2017 at 01:42 PM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

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