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  1. #1
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    Revelation: A verse-by-verse outline

    Good morning all!

    I've decided to restart an old thread where I had a debate with a former member by the name, "Two-Spirits". I will go over Revelations (at least try to) verse by verse. This will be an exhausting attempt to explain the Preterist position. However, the primary difference between the debate I engaged in years ago is my position is more relative to early church fathers who believed in a type of Partial Preterism. Before I begin, this is a very short summary of the outline I will be using.

    Here is a quick glance on Preterism from a "mostly fulfilled" position. It is not main-stream Partial Preterism as with Kenneth Gentry who believes in a future bodily resurrection. Gentry may be correct, but my position does not necessarily reflect this. But rather than discuss this now, I will discuss the Great White Throne Judgment and the "rest of the dead living again" after the Millenniums when I get to it.

    For now, here is a short synopsis:

    Chapters 1-4:
    Christ sends urgent warning to the seven churches in Asia Minor (Now Turkey) to prepare them for great suffering, and to commend or correct Church behavior's.

    Chapters 5-19
    The suffering of the Saints and the 144,000 sealed
    The Judgment of the Harlot located "where our Lord was crucified" and who was responsible for the blood of the Saints and of the Lord Jesus. The Harlot is the former Wife of Christ, aka Jerusalem
    Satan who deceived Rome and ancient Israel is locked away during the Millenniums to stop his deception
    Heaven praises God's judgment of the Harlot and the Saints begin their true reign as kings and priests with Christ for Millenniums

    Chapters 20-22
    The Marriage of the Church and Bride is completed, and the New Jerusalem begins her reign with Christ during the Millenniums
    The Beast and the false Prophet is being overtaken and an invitation of the wedding guests: They eat the flesh of kings, princesses, and the mighty
    The New Jerusalem expands deep into the future during the Millenniums
    Satan released for a short while to rebuild his army by deceiving the nations: This starts the next judgment upon the nations after the Millenniums
    Satan and his armies of all the deceived peoples of all nations are finally judged, and the New Jerusalem remains victorious
    John sees the glory of the New Jerusalem and the Messiah after satan is finally defeated, having survived the Beast two millenniums ago, as well as the deceptions more than 2,000 years later. She remains a beautiful Bride of the Christ
    An invitation for all those who thirst to take part of the New Jerusalem. Sinners remain outside of the Church, while those part of the New Jerusalem abide within the kingdom of Christ
    Final warning not to alter the prophetic words of John's book

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  2. #2
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    Smile

    Howdy Joe

    Should be interesting !
    Just dropped in to look around after a few years away.
    Remember the debate well. I saved the entirety on my computer.

    Gil

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil View Post
    Howdy Joe

    Should be interesting !
    Just dropped in to look around after a few years away.
    Remember the debate well. I saved the entirety on my computer.

    Gil
    Hi Gil! Been a long time since I've seen you. I don't recall though, what your eschatological position is. Unless I'm mistaken, you are a Full Preterist?

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  4. #4
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    I will begin with Chapter 1 of Revelation:

    Revelation 1:1-3

    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants?things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

    First thing is the adverb, "Revelation", which simply means to "reveal" what was not formerly known, and this pertains to one main subject, and that's Jesus. The entire book of Revelation is about REVEALING the identity, nature, and workings of Jesus as the Messiah. John is given an urgent message to explain to the seven churches in Asia Minor to prepare them for what they were about to suffer. By providing the Church with the truth about Jesus (revealing what was not formerly known), they would find comfort and understanding just exactly what it was they were waiting and hoping for. And what they were hoping for was just around the corner, because (as Christ tells John), "THE TIME IS NEAR!" This time-statement solidifies any attempt to prolong the book into an unreachable future at the time of its authorship. The letter was urgent, and it will reveal the Messiah and His workings, and that the time was near/at hand for them to personally witness.

    Another note to consider is the identity of John. It is my opinion that the Revelation of Christ was not given to St. John the Apostle, but rather John the Presbyter. I may be wrong, but the language used in Revelation does not match the gospel of St. John, nor His last 3 Epistles. I also suggest this because John, having known Jesus directly, seems to be stunned when seeing Christ. St. John would not have been surprised, nor would St. John be seen bowing down at the end of Revelation to the Angel who shows John the heavenly Jerusalem. Thus I believe John the Presbyter of Ephesus is the servant. A 2nd century Bishop named Papias seems to suggest there were two John's: St. John the Apostle, and John the Elder of Ephesus.

    The only problem I have with John the Presbyter being the servant is with the statement in this verse, "who bore witness to the word of God (Jesus), and to the testimony of Jesus the Christ". Was John the Presbyter around to personally witness Christ? Perhaps. We certainly know St. John was. Even so, for now I am convinced that John the Presbyter is the servant, and not St. John the Apostle.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 09-23-2017 at 02:50 PM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  5. #5
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    Revelation 1:4-5

    4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

    Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.


    Erchomenos & Parousias (coming & presence)

    Continuing on with verses 4-5, this is a simple introduction by John denoting his urgent message to the seven churches located in Asia Minor. What's interesting to point out is John's use of the Greek word, "erchomenos", translated as "come again". Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 use the Greek word, "parousias", defined as "presence" as in, "to present oneself as of higher authority". The difference between these two words is one denotes a presence not necessarily physical (parousias), while the other (erchomenos) is used to denote a return be it physically or not physically. We use the term ?parousias? during church services whenever we say,

    "Let us gather together in the presence of the Lord"

    Despite the fact He is not physically there, but with us in Spirit. Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 all denote Christ presenting Himself as ruler or king of the Israelites. When the Apostles questioned Christ during the Olivet Discourse, they were asking Him, "When will you present yourself as the Messiah"? Many of us have misinterpreted what they were asking Jesus. For they were NOT asking Christ when He was going to "return" or "come again" when none of them new up to this point that He was going anywhere. They were expecting Him to destroy the temple as foretold by Daniel the Prophet (Daniel 9 and the Seventy Weeks), and when He was going to restore the House of Israel (Acts 2). This is one of the primary reasons why Futurists continue to misinterpret the Olivet Discourse because of a poor English translation of the Greek word, "parousias", although most Bibles correctly insert a reference note of its literal meaning, "or presence".

    In the case of "erchomenos", which means to come or return, again this does not denote an actual physical presence. Erchomenos (to come again) is used 26 times in the New Testament, but is not always identified nor demanding a physical presentation. At the same time, it can. However, in the case of Revelation, erchomenos is used to denote a "soon to come" promise, since it is used in sequence in verses 1-4 from time statement, "at hand or near". In short, Jesus was, is, and is to come shortly (not necessarily physically).

    Seven Spirits of God

    The next thing to note is the seven spirits of God before His Throne. This is interesting how Jesus used the "seven spirits" explanation of a man being overcome by "seven evil spirits" stronger than the one spirit in order to overpower the possessed soul. To me, and this is just my personal note, the use of the phrase, "seven spirits of God" may denote God's overpowering attributes of all lost souls. For when we are saved, having a spirit of sin and evil within us, a "stronger man" must overcome the evil within us, cleaning our hearts and minds of the evil, and filling our house (figuratively speaking) with stronger Spirits; in this case the Holy Spirit of Christ. The seven spirits of God might also denote that He is all seeing. But is my strongest opinion, the use of the ?seven spirits of God? phrase is John?s way of denoting ?a stronger man possessing a house?, aka our bodies.

    First Fruits ? First Born from the Dead & the 7 Feasts of Israel

    Christ is identified as the "first born" from the dead. This is important because, of the 7 Feasts of Israel that had to be fulfilled, the Feast of First Fruits is the final feast of the 3 "Spring Feasts" which happens consecutively without any time-gaps. The Spring Feasts include:

    1. Feast of Passover
    2. Feast of Unleavened Bread
    3. Feast of First Fruits

    The Spring Feasts must happen in the Hebraic month of Nisan 14, 15, and 17. The Feast of Passover (also known as the High Sabbath) must be observed on a Wednesday, dated 14 Nisan; The Feast of Unleavened Bread must be observed on a Thursday, dated 15 Nisan. And 2 days after 15 Nisan, the Feast of First Fruits must be observed on 17 Nisan which must fall on the weekly Sabbath - Saturday. Jesus was resurrected on Saturday evening before the start of the new day at 6PM Saturday evening, which begins Sunday.

    Historically speaking, Jesus was arrested before the Passover (High Sabbath) on Tuesday 13 Nisan 30AD. He was crucified to fulfill the Passover Lamb on Wednesday 14 Nisan 30AD. His dead body in the tomb served to fulfill the Feast of Unleavened Bread to signify the death of the First Born on 15 Nisan 30AD, and being raised on the 3rd day two days later on Saturday (Sabbath Day - Day of rest) 17 Nisan 30AD. Thus Jesus being raised on the 3rd day fulfilled the Feast of First Fruits, as "The First Born from among the Dead".

    Futurists speculate that Jesus died on the cross in 33AD. But this is impossible since the Spring Feasts must be observed beginning on a Wednesday 14 Nisan, and ending on Saturday 17 Nisan. In 33AD, 14 Nisan falls on a Friday, and therefore makes it impossible to have been observed or fulfilled in 33AD. 30AD aligns perfectly with this ancient Judean practice.

    King over All the Earth

    Jesus is the King over all earthly kings, including the Gentile nations. This has never changed despite Futurist attempts to demote Christ, claiming that Satan is currently the ruler over all the earth. This is wrong! Satan up this point in Revelation does not have "dominion" over the earth since he lost his rule after the resurrection of Christ, and having ascended into heaven.

    Conclusion:

    The message of John is addressed to the seven churches of Asia to give them an urgent message from the ruler over all earthly kingdoms. Its purpose was to provide the Churches with a message of comfort from the intense persecution they were suffering, that they were not alone, and that Christ had not forgotten any of them nor of their travails. He was about to take His authority as King of the world, and reign over the earth. Christ is the First Born from among the dead, and the time of His coming is at hand!

    Exhortation

    By the time we are done with the study of Revelation, you will learn as I have years ago, that it is impossible for Christ not to have fulfilled Revelation in the first century because He fulfilled the 7 Feasts of Israel in the first century, without time-gaps. The first century is the only time permissible for Christ to fulfill the 7 Feasts of Israel since the Spring Feasts were completed in the first century, as well as Pentecost 50 days later, and therefore demanding that the remaining 3 Feasts also be fulfilled shortly thereafter. We know up to this point that Christ fulfilled the Spring Feasts (Feast of Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, and Feast of First Fruits) on 14-17 Nisan 30AD, and then the summer Feast of Pentecost 50 days later on 7 Sivan 30AD. The remaining three Feasts (Trumpets, Atonement, and Tabernacles) are what Revelation is all about. My friends get ready find a new love with the book of Revelation! If you?re hungry for the truth of this book, please stick around.
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 09-23-2017 at 06:54 PM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    I will begin with Chapter 1 of Revelation:

    Revelation 1:1-3

    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants?things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

    First thing is the adverb, "Revelation", which simply means to "reveal" what was not formerly known, and this pertains to one main subject, and that's Jesus. The entire book of Revelation is about REVEALING the identity, nature, and workings of Jesus as the Messiah. John is given an urgent message to explain to the seven churches in Asia Minor to prepare them for what they were about to suffer. By providing the Church with the truth about Jesus (revealing what was not formerly known), they would find comfort and understanding just exactly what it was they were waiting and hoping for. And what they were hoping for was just around the corner, because (as Christ tells John), "THE TIME IS NEAR!" This time-statement solidifies any attempt to prolong the book into an unreachable future at the time of its authorship. The letter was urgent, and it will reveal the Messiah and His workings, and that the time was near/at hand for them to personally witness.

    Another note to consider is the identity of John. It is my opinion that the Revelation of Christ was not given to St. John the Apostle, but rather John the Presbyter. I may be wrong, but the language used in Revelation does not match the gospel of St. John, nor His last 3 Epistles. I also suggest this because John, having known Jesus directly, seems to be stunned when seeing Christ. St. John would not have been surprised, nor would St. John be seen bowing down at the end of Revelation to the Angel who shows John the heavenly Jerusalem. Thus I believe John the Presbyter of Ephesus is the servant. A 2nd century Bishop named Papias seems to suggest there were two John's: St. John the Apostle, and John the Elder of Ephesus.

    The only problem I have with John the Presbyter being the servant is with the statement in this verse, "who bore witness to the word of God (Jesus), and to the testimony of Jesus the Christ". Was John the Presbyter around to personally witness Christ? Perhaps. We certainly know St. John was. Even so, for now I am convinced that John the Presbyter is the servant, and not St. John the Apostle.

    Joe

    I believe that the same writer wrote John, 1John, 2John, 3 John and Revelation. I have come to this position by reading some writings of David Curtis and the writer of the essay. "The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved"?


    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...-of-christ.htm


    http://www.thedisciplewhomjesusloved...oved-disciple/

    http://www.lazaruscomeforth.com/gospel-of-john-or-not/
    Brother Les

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    I believe that the same writer wrote John, 1John, 2John, 3 John and Revelation. I have come to this position by reading some writings of David Curtis and the writer of the essay. "The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved"?


    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...-of-christ.htm


    http://www.thedisciplewhomjesusloved...oved-disciple/

    http://www.lazaruscomeforth.com/gospel-of-john-or-not/
    Hi LES! I will definitely check out the links you've provided. Oh, I had to edit the last post. After reading it, there were too many grammatical errors, and the structuring was no logical enough for me. I am trying to make this as easy as I can to read. I hope that you too will enjoy this. By the time I am done, I hope you will see that I am still a "Full Preterist" and that the Millennium had nothing to do with the 7 Feasts of Israel, but that the Millennium is all about God's Tabernacle with us since the first century. I was wanting to save this for last But I would like you to join in on this discussion....Futurists to as long as the Futurists do not try detracting this thread with worthless input. Please stick with me on this...I promise you will enjoy it.

    Give me a chance to watch the videos about John the Apostle or the Presbyter and perhaps we can start a new Thread on that topic.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    I believe that the same writer wrote John, 1John, 2John, 3 John and Revelation. I have come to this position by reading some writings of David Curtis and the writer of the essay. "The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved"?


    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...-of-christ.htm


    http://www.thedisciplewhomjesusloved...oved-disciple/

    http://www.lazaruscomeforth.com/gospel-of-john-or-not/
    If you folks want to pursue this topic, you might find it helpful to review the we've already had on this topic in a thread called, appropriately enough, Who was the Disciple that Jesus Loved?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    If you folks want to pursue this topic, you might find it helpful to review the we've already had on this topic in a thread called, appropriately enough, Who was the Disciple that Jesus Loved?
    Hey Richard! Nice to see you again! I thought I'd never see you perusing around these parts again.

    We will certainly move the discussion of which John wrote Revelation to the appropriate thread.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Hey Richard! Nice to see you again! I thought I'd never see you perusing around these parts again.

    We will certainly move the discussion of which John wrote Revelation to the appropriate thread.

    Joe
    Hey there Joe!

    It's kinda funny to be "welcomed" to my own forum! But it makes sense and I do appreciate it since I've been "missing in action" for quite a few months. I really got tired of arguing in circles. It just didn't seem to be going anywhere. But now, after many months of relaxation and reflection, I feel ready to resume discourse from my more mellow frame of mind. I think I finally realized that the primary thing I want to avoid is ideology. Whether in politics or religion, I don't see the value of being an "ideologue." Maybe it's impossible to really free ourselves from ideology, but I'm gonna do my best. And even if it is impossible to really be free, at least I can point it out when I see it and strive to put reason, rationality, and basic humanity above ideology.

    Great to be chatting again my friend.

    Richard

    PS: I've fixed a lot of things on the forum. I made the whole site SSL secure, and fixed the problem with email notifications. Let me know if you see anything else that needs fixing.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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