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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

    If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

    To sin is to do something immoral and thus create a victim to that sin. I cannot see all sins as something that would condemn us to eternal suffering and death in hell or the lake of fire as that goes against the biblical notion of justice being an eye for an eye or that the penalty should fit the crime/sin.

    What sin did Jesus do to earn his death?

    I see Jesus? death as more of suicide than sacrifice as he initiated his own suicide by getting Judas to betray him.

    Could Jesus? sin have been suicide?

    If not, what do you think his sin was?

    Regards
    DL

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
    If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

    To sin is to do something immoral and thus create a victim to that sin. I cannot see all sins as something that would condemn us to eternal suffering and death in hell or the lake of fire as that goes against the biblical notion of justice being an eye for an eye or that the penalty should fit the crime/sin.

    What sin did Jesus do to earn his death?

    I see Jesus? death as more of suicide than sacrifice as he initiated his own suicide by getting Judas to betray him.

    Could Jesus? sin have been suicide?

    If not, what do you think his sin was?

    Regards
    DL

    Sin is a transgression of God's Law. He was accused of transgressing The Mosaic Law several times. Can Jesus transgress the Mosaic Law?

    The Death is not related to physical death, but to Spiritual Death.
    Brother Les

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    South Carolina
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    2,958
    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    Sin is a transgression of God's Law. He was accused of transgressing The Mosaic Law several times. Can Jesus transgress the Mosaic Law?

    The Death is not related to physical death, but to Spiritual Death.
    Exactly Brother LES. Even I used to be confused about the word "death" during my youthful years as a young Bible student. Every time I read the word "death", I equated that to physical death. When Adam and Eve sinned, it was not physical death they were to be cursed with; they were going to die whether they bit the apple or not. It was separation from God that is the death St. Paul spoke about. Adam and Eve gave birth to sin, and as sin spread, separate from God (death) resulted. Jesus is the opposite of what Adam and Eve did. Jesus gave birth to righteousness, and as a result, God and humankind can be reunited in fellowship, thus giving life. While physical death will always happen as that is the fate of all earth-based temples (bodies). However, our lives are made alive through the sacrifice of Jesus (His blood), and we are thus married (joined) to God, thereby enjoying eternal life.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
    If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

    To sin is to do something immoral and thus create a victim to that sin. I cannot see all sins as something that would condemn us to eternal suffering and death in hell or the lake of fire as that goes against the biblical notion of justice being an eye for an eye or that the penalty should fit the crime/sin.

    What sin did Jesus do to earn his death?

    I see Jesus? death as more of suicide than sacrifice as he initiated his own suicide by getting Judas to betray him.

    Could Jesus? sin have been suicide?

    If not, what do you think his sin was?

    Regards
    DL
    Jesus did not sin. In fact He was the only human being (aka the Spirit of God) to live His entire life without sin. This is why he is likened to a white lamb; an innocent lamb. And a spotless innocent lamb is offered as a sin offering for the many. If Jesus were guilty of sin, then he could not be equated to an innocent lamb, and therefore His sacrifice would not have been a pure one; we would still be in our sins.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  5. #5
    Gods law is there has to be a payment for sin, without payment (just and fair and equal) there is no remission of sin. Thats the law. All have to pay for their sins.

    Jesus paid the price for our sins, not for His sins, even though the dam religious self righteous, holier than thou scribes and pharisees and church people accused Him of sin and hob nobbing with dirty rotten whores and tax collectors etc etc... but Jesus never sinned, and never pretended to be holy and sanctimonious but a friend, and brother of sinners, who came for them and to die for them.

    Jesus paid the price.... end of mystery. The heathen and agnostics want to say Jesus sinned, and was just like them...and therefore no help to them. FINE, not a problem, they can pay for their own sins.... their choice.

    The penalty of sin is death, if thats what they want, OK, the Lord never forces himself on anyone.

    Ohh how they complain.

  6. #6
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    Earth
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    In addition to all of the most excellent replies so far:

    Jesus Christ being the ?lamb of God? and without sin was the ONLY sacrifice worthy to pay for the entirety of mankind from our sin. The only stipulation for redemption is that we wake up and admit that God?s way is correct way to live life and that we would have it no other way and so we follow him in obedience.

    Obedience to my Father used to bother me to no end at one point in my life, because I hated any authority over my supposed sovereign self. The day I realized the foolishness in that thought, I converted and everything about my life began to slowly change and seemingly organize itself. It has taken many years and the process continues. Now each and every day brings new light, more joy and a keener sense of everything around me. Intelligent Design has been made manifest in my eyes. I see it like I never thought was possible until I remembered loosing my childhood wonderment of it all.

    I now know why we need to become children again to enter the Kingdom. It?s because the child can see all of the wonderful things around them. They can find all joy in piling up a bunch of sticks to build a wonderful house on top of a mound of soil without the worry of making enough money to buy all of the things we don?t need. We are born with the eyes to know God, but slowly get caught up into this world?s craziness and forget.

    I pray this finds all well.

    Your brother in Christ :)

  7. #7
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    May 2012
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    575
    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    Sin is a transgression of God's Law. He was accused of transgressing The Mosaic Law several times. Can Jesus transgress the Mosaic Law?

    The Death is not related to physical death, but to Spiritual Death.
    That is the esoteric view and I agree with you.

    The only Jesus that died is the one we all have within our own minds.

    Regards
    DL

  8. #8
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    May 2012
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    575
    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Exactly Brother LES. Even I used to be confused about the word "death" during my youthful years as a young Bible student. Every time I read the word "death", I equated that to physical death. When Adam and Eve sinned, it was not physical death they were to be cursed with; they were going to die whether they bit the apple or not. It was separation from God that is the death St. Paul spoke about. Adam and Eve gave birth to sin, and as sin spread, separate from God (death) resulted. Jesus is the opposite of what Adam and Eve did. Jesus gave birth to righteousness, and as a result, God and humankind can be reunited in fellowship, thus giving life. While physical death will always happen as that is the fate of all earth-based temples (bodies). However, our lives are made alive through the sacrifice of Jesus (His blood), and we are thus married (joined) to God, thereby enjoying eternal life.

    Joe
    Eternal life. What a horrid curse that would be. If we had it in reality, we would pine for death.

    You say Adam and Eve sinned in Eden.

    Are you aware that the Jews who wrote that myth interpret Eden as man's place of elevation and not our fall.

    They see having our eyes opened instead of closed and our developing a moral sense as more important that eternal life.

    Do you agree with their view of Christianity's view of a fall?

    Regards
    DL

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    575
    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Jesus did not sin. In fact He was the only human being (aka the Spirit of God) to live His entire life without sin. This is why he is likened to a white lamb; an innocent lamb. And a spotless innocent lamb is offered as a sin offering for the many. If Jesus were guilty of sin, then he could not be equated to an innocent lamb, and therefore His sacrifice would not have been a pure one; we would still be in our sins.

    Joe
    We still are.

    Sin, in scriptures, is defined as missing the mark. I see Jesus missing the mark on morality in a number of his teachings.

    Dogma says that we must accept substitutionary atonement as somehow being good justice. Jesus, as his other third, Yahweh, demands we accept that corruption of justice.

    Jesus also indicates that a no-divorce policy is also how man should live, but that denies people the chance to find loving mates as it forces them to stay in loveless or abusive marriages.

    I see Jesus missing the moral mark at least twice.

    Do you see it that way as well?

    Regards
    DL

  10. #10
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    May 2012
    Posts
    575
    Quote Originally Posted by davidjayjordan View Post
    Gods law is there has to be a payment for sin, without payment (just and fair and equal) there is no remission of sin. Thats the law. All have to pay for their sins.

    Jesus paid the price for our sins, not for His sins, even though the dam religious self righteous, holier than thou scribes and pharisees and church people accused Him of sin and hob nobbing with dirty rotten whores and tax collectors etc etc... but Jesus never sinned, and never pretended to be holy and sanctimonious but a friend, and brother of sinners, who came for them and to die for them.

    Jesus paid the price.... end of mystery. The heathen and agnostics want to say Jesus sinned, and was just like them...and therefore no help to them. FINE, not a problem, they can pay for their own sins.... their choice.

    The penalty of sin is death, if thats what they want, OK, the Lord never forces himself on anyone.

    Ohh how they complain.
    Hell is God forcing himself on us.

    As a Gnostic Christian, I have to take the Universalist position and that states that we all get into heaven as we all contribute to what we all do, be it good or evil.

    You say that we all have to pay for our sins.
    Let me agree with you (just here) and ask you who should pay for Hitler's sin?

    Try to look from God's POV, just to show how a Universalist God would think and see things.

    Hitler was not born evil, unless he was born insane.
    He was made evil by all those who interacted with him and his own thinking based on the information from all who interacted with him.

    All of those should be punished for their share of making Hitler evil. Right?

    If so, then you will agree that all of us deserve hell since all of us contribute to what all of us end up doing and being.

    Do you see this?

    Regards
    DL

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