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  1. #1
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    Enoch : an essay on angels

    I am writing a new book at the moment called "Enoch : an essay on angels"
    People may be interested in some of the things coming to light. The book is available as a free download here -

    http://www.craigdemo.co.uk/enochvid2.htm
    Last edited by Craig.Paardekooper; 07-30-2010 at 01:09 PM.

  2. #2
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    Enoch: 70 generations

    Thank you Craig.

    You really keep an eye on time periods. I find it interesting that Enoch is the 7th from Adam and Jesus is the 77th! It links to 1 Enoch which suggests that the fallen angels would be kept bound for 70 generations until the day of judgment.
    1 Enoch 10:15 (...) And when all their sons shall be slain, when they shall see the perdition of their beloved, bind them for seventy generations underneath the earth, even to the day of judgment, and of consummation, until the judgment, the effect of which will last for ever, be completed.
    Of course this is extracanonical but it gives a rich background to what we read in the NT, specially the latter books like Jude and Revelation.

  3. #3
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    Why did God take so long to send Jesus

    I find it interesting that Enoch is the 7th from Adam and Jesus is the 77th! It links to 1 Enoch which suggests that the fallen angels would be kept bound for 70 generations until the day of judgment.
    1 Enoch 10:15 (...) And when all their sons shall be slain, when they shall see the perdition of their beloved, bind them for seventy generations underneath the earth, even to the day of judgment, and of consummation, until the judgment, the effect of which will last for ever, be completed.



    I often used to wonder why God waited so long to send Jesus. Why all that time from Adam to Jesus. And why did Jesus choose that particular time to come.

    The Bible states that Jesus came in the 70th generation after Enoch, and Jesus came to bring a final judgement upon Satan. Similarly, the Book of Enoch states that the angels would be held in prison for 70 generations from the time of Enoch - until their final judgement.

    After 70 generations we find God offering forgiveness through the atoning death of Jesus. It therefore seems that mankind too underwent a punishment for 70 generations (not just the angels). After 70 generations, our punishment was complete, and forgiveness was made available.

    That's must be why God waited until the 70th generation.......

    Prior to Enoch, people had lived much longer lifespans. Jesus came to return us to long life. In fact Jesus offered eternal life. But Christians still die of old age, so what does this mean??

    The evidence of greater longevity in past ages shows that God can quite easily create worlds where lifespans are far longer - thousands or even millions of years - in natural worlds filled with extraordinary animals and abundant nature. God's promise is to return us to this state.

    Part of the punishment was estrangement from God. Forgiveness means union with God is again possible. So Jesus came to return us to spiritual life, not just long life.

    Even during the 70 generations, God was preparing the way of repentance. He sent His prophets.
    Last edited by Craig.Paardekooper; 01-21-2011 at 02:58 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    This is a little researched area of history that is quite facinating.
    Did Vendyl Jones find the Ark? I'm more persuaded that it's in heaven as mentioned in Revelation 11.

  5. #5
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    Christ lived in the 70th generation after Enoch
    Khrishna lived in Enoch's generation

    Whilst Krishna appeared at the beginning of the 70 generations, Christ appeared at the end.

    What I find curious is the similarity of the names, even though they have very different meanings.

    Also, both Christ and Khristna were regarded as divine incarnations.

    Krishna was specifically sent because of a war between the gods (devas) and demons (asuras). His primary mission was to reduce the power of the demons. This war is described in the Mahabharata - which dates the war to the very generation of Enoch - c 3200 B.C.

    All was well in the Krta Yuga – people were virtuous, Kings just, and traders honest. Animals were well taken care of.

    Around this time, the Asuras, having been repeatedly defeated by the descendants of Aditi (Devas), with a desire to attain divinity began to be born in earth among men and animals. The Asuras, intoxicated with power and pride, troubled all people, sages and other creatures. The Earth was unable to defend this onslaught; and neither did Sesha , the Tortoise nor the Elephant (the last three supporting the earth in some capacity). The Earth then approached Brahma and pleaded for a reprieve. Brahma replied, 'O Earth, I am appointing the Devas to accomplish that which will liberate you from this situation'. Saying this, he bode her farewell.

    In this illustration, Shiva, Brahma, Indra and Prithvi (in the form of a cow) pray to Narayana (Artist: Kailash Raj)
    Brahma then summoned the Devas and addressed them thus, 'O Devas, to relieve the Earth of this burden, may you all be born on Earth to cultivate strife (with the Asuras)'. Brahma also conveyed the message to Apsaras and Gandharvas. The celestials, having taken the resolution to incarnate on earth then went to Vaikunta, the abode of Narayana. There Indra requested Lord Vishnu, saying, 'O Lord, Please incarnate on the Earth to liberate her burden'. Narayana acceded to His request by saying,'I will'. Hearing this, Indra gave appropriate instructions to the Devas and returned to his abode.
    Subsequently the Devas gradually began their incarnations on earth for the destruction of the Asuras and the welfare of the worlds.
    This is the same war as depicted in the writings of Enoch.

    The war itself seems to have involved quite advanced weaponry - contributed by both the devas and asuras -

    The Sanskrit Karna Parva, given below in English translation, is much more detailed, describing at least two battles involving aerial vehicles known as vimanas. The first battle fails to topple the ocean-based regime; but eventually an especially large vimana is constructed and equipt with celestial weaponry, including something containing the "power of the universe" (nuclear energy?). Sankara (herein called Mahadeva or "Great God") is given command of this aerial vehicle. He enters this celestial car, accompanied by cheering deities, and ascends into the heavens fully armed with powerful celestial weapons. Flying resolutely toward his enemies the Daityas and Danavas (Titans), Sankara streaks from the skies in his radiant vimana, and ends the ten year-long war by firing this god-given weapon straight at Tripura, the capital city of Atala, totally destroying Triple City and sending the entire rebellious race of Asuras burning to the bottom of the "Western Ocean". Here is the account (edited because it is about a dozen pages long) from the Mahabharata:
    Duryodhana said,--Listen, once more, O ruler of the Madras, to what I will say unto thee, about what happened, O lord, in the battle between the gods and the Asuras in the days of yore! The great Rishi Markandeya narrated it to my sire. I will now recite it without leaving out anything, O best of royal sages! Listen to that account confidingly and without mistrusting it at all. Between the gods and the Asuras, each desirous of vanquishing the other, there happened a great battle, O king, which had Takara for its evil (root). . . Those Asuras then, filled with joy . . .and having settled it among themselves about the construction of the three cities [Tripura], selected for the purpose the great Asura Maya, the celestial artificer, knowing no fatigue or decay, and worshipped by all the Daityas and Danavas. Then Maya, of great intelligence, by the aid of his own ascetic merit, constructed the three cities . . . all in such a way as to revolve in a circle, O lord of Earth! Each of those cities measured a hundred Yojanas in breadth and a hundred in length. And they consisted of houses and mansions and lofty walls and porches. And though teeming with lordly palaces close to each other yet the streets were wide and spacious. And they were adorned with diverse mansions and gate-ways . . .

    Those three Daitya kings, soon assailing the three worlds with their energy, continued to dwell and reign, and began to say,--"Who is he called the Creator?" . . . Crowned with success by means of austere penances, those enhancers of the fears of the gods sustained, O king, no diminution [sic] in battle. Stupified then by covetousness and folly, and deprived of their senses, all of them began to shamelessly exterminate the cities and towns established all over the universe. Filled with pride . . . the wicked Danavas ceased to show any respect for anybody. While the worlds were thus afflicted, Sakra [Cukra, in some translations], surrounded by the Maruts, battled against the three cities by hurling his thunder upon them from every side. When however Paradara failed to pierce those cities . . . the chief of the celestials . . . asked the divine Grandsire the means by which triple city could be destroyed. The illustrious deity, hearing the words of Indra, told the gods,--"He that is an offender against you offends me also . . . Those three forts are to be pierced with one shaft. By no other means can their destruction be effected." (Karna Parva, Section XXXIII)

    The gods said,--"Gathering all forms that may be found in the three worlds and taking portions of each, we will, O Lord of the gods, construct a car [vimana] of great energy for thee. It will be a large car, the handy-work of Viswakarman, designed with intelligence."--Saying this, those tigers among the gods began the construction of that car . . . the Mind became the ground upon which that car stood, and Speech the tracks upon which it was to proceed. Beautiful banners of various hues waved in the air. With lightning and Indra's bow [celestial weapons?] attached to it, that blazing car gave fierce light.

    Thus equipt, that car shone brilliantly, like a blazing fire in the midst of the priests officiating at a sacrifice. Beholding that car properly equipt, the gods became filled with wonder. Seeing the energies of the entire universe united together in one place, O sire, the gods wondered, and at last represented unto that illustrious Deity that the car was ready. After, O monarch, that best of cars had thus been constructed by the gods . . . Sankara placed upon it his own celestial weapons . . . the gods repaired unto the Grandsire, and inclining him to grace, said these words . . . 'A car [vimana] has been constructed by us, equipt with many wonderful weapons . . .'

    Then Mahadeva, terrifying the very gods, and making the very Earth tremble, ascended that car resolutely . . . When that boon-giving Lord, that despeller of the fears of the three worlds, thus proceeded, the entire universe, all the gods, O best of men, became exceedingly gratified . . . having ascended the car [Sankara], set out for the Asuras . . . to the spot where the Daityas are!

    When the boon-giving Brahman, having ascended the car, set out for the Asuras . . . towards that spot where triple city . . . stood, protected by the Daityas and Danavas . . . The triple city then appeared immediately before that god of unbearable energy, that deity of fierce and indescribable form, that warrior who was desirous of slaying the Asuras. The illustrious deity . . . sped that shaft which represented the might of the whole universe, at the triple city. . . loud wails of woe were heard from those cities as they began to fall . . . Burning those Asuras, he threw them down into the Western Ocean. Thus was the triple city burnt and thus were the Danavas exterminated by Maheswara . . . (Karna Parva, Section XXXIV)
    The Danavas are "giants" and "Titans" according to a standard Sanskrit Dictionary (Oxford University Press, 1974).

  6. #6
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    Hey there Craig,

    So what do you think the similarities mean?

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  7. #7
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    Hi RAM,

    I think that the records of the war that took place in the time of Enoch are part of the bigger picture. The Mahabharata is simply a record of that war.

    It is curious to ask what was the religion before the Flood?

    I believe that the pre-incarnate Christ was involved in that war too. In the 70th generation after Enoch, Christ came to bring judgement upon Satan, so who was responsible for defeating and imprisoning the fallen angels in the time of Enoch?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    Hi RAM,

    I think that the records of the war that took place in the time of Enoch are part of the bigger picture. The Mahabharata is simply a record of that war.

    It is curious to ask what was the religion before the Flood?

    I believe that the pre-incarnate Christ was involved in that war too. In the 70th generation after Enoch, Christ came to bring judgement upon Satan, so who was responsible for defeating and imprisoning the fallen angels in the time of Enoch?
    You bring up a very curious question. It sounds like you believe that Book of Enoch is an accurate record. Is that correct? If so, why do you think we should believe it?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  9. #9
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    Hi Ram,

    Enoch and other ancient traditions - such as Mahabharata, Greek traditions etc, all cast an interesting light on the time of Enoch. It is not just Enoch in isolation. There are many many sources that say a similar thing. None of these sources are inerrant, but the general story that emerges seems to be that there was an angelic invasion in the time of Enoch, and these angels were defeated and punished by being imprisoned.

    The New Testament completes the picture by stating that Christ came in the 70th generation after Enoch. And the New Testament quotes from the Book of Enoch.

    We know that God brought judgement upon the world of Enoch in the form of the Flood and the fall in longevity.

    As to the third part of that judgement - the imprisonment of the fallen angels - Christ did judge them 70 generations later.

    Whatsmore, it makes sense that the fallen angels were punished for seventy generations, since their works were destroyed by the Flood which occurred 777.7 x 777.77 days after Adam's birth.

    People sometimes wonder why Christ waited until his generation to come. Why didn't he come 1000 years earlier? I think the answer might be that we fell under the same judgement as the fallen angels, and that punishment lasted 70 generations.

    I am not saying that I believe every detail in the Book of Enoch or the other traditions. I just feel that the general story is part of the bigger picture.
    Last edited by Craig.Paardekooper; 09-07-2011 at 05:42 PM.

  10. #10
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    The whole Bible spans 70 generations of punishment of the fallen angels from Enoch to Christ.

    In the time of Enoch, God brought the Flood upon the earth to destroy the offspring of the fallen angels.

    Then, in the time of Abraham, God sent angels who smote Sodom and Gomorrah - where the giants dwelt.

    Then exactly at the midpoint of the 70 generations, God raised up the army of the Israelites to destroy the descendants of the giants who dwelt in the promised land. He armed the Israelites with a special weapon - the Ark of the Covenant.

    By the time of Isaiah, the war becomes more spiritual and inward. The golden giant statue created by Nebuchadnezzar is replaced by successively poorer metals, and finally it is broken up and destroyed by the Kingdom of God. The spirit of pride and of the Superman, is replaced by the spirit of God. The demons within the psyche are progressively driven out.

    Finally, in the time of Jesus the fallen angels are judged and the Jewish Age is brought to an end. The 70 generations are complete.

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