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  1. #1
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    Electric Universe Revisited - Birkeland Gets The Last Laugh

    Hi Richard - I figured you might appreciate a little distraction from the running dialogue going on in the other threads. I check in at the Thunderbolts.info site every few days to see if they have released anything new and came across these three videos yesterday. It appears the mainstream is starting to make "discoveries" that the Electric Universe proponents have been talking about for years. Maybe they are seen as 'discoveries' because they are finding things they weren't looking for? https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/201...th-space-news/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU74kAmONQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT3DWZBKoRk

  2. #2
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    Another Baby Step

    Silence here posting from the employee computer before work - Another acknowledgement of electric forces playing a role in planetary geology features that were previously unexplained- https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2017/04/25/22528/

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    Silence here posting from the employee computer before work - Another acknowledgement of electric forces playing a role in planetary geology features that were previously unexplained- https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2017/04/25/22528/
    Hey there Silence,

    I don't understand why you would waste time with fringe science if you haven't mastered real science yet? If you don't know real science, how can you hope to evaluate the validity of the fringe science?

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #4
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    Hi Richard, From the constant litany of press releases that talk of scientists being ""shocked", surprised", and "needing to go back to the drawing board", it seems they haven't mastered science either. Did you watch the three videos in the first post? The first shows their surprise at the size of the electric fields associated with the jets of super-heated plasma high in our atmosphere. They are describing something Kristian Birkeland predicted over 100 years ago, and got laughed at for. The second video details their surprise at finding new stars in supposedly old clusters. And the third details a solar flare that dragged a sun spot around a little. According to standard theory that is equivalent in their own words to the tail wagging the dog. If you don't want to "waste" too much time run the vids at 2x speed with the subtitles on. I found them interesting.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    Hi Richard, From the constant litany of press releases that talk of scientists being ""shocked", surprised", and "needing to go back to the drawing board", it seems they haven't mastered science either.
    Hey there Silence,

    I think you missed my point. The fact that the experts don't have everything figured out does not mean they are the same as amateurs who know nothing.

    The fact that they don't know everything does not mean they have mastered nothing, and it certainly does not give any credence of any kind to cranks on the fringe, which is what the electric universe folks seem like.

    So let me repeat my question: Why do you waste time pursuing fringe science when you haven't mastered established science sufficiently to judge between the two?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    Did you watch the three videos in the first post? The first shows their surprise at the size of the electric fields associated with the jets of super-heated plasma high in our atmosphere. They are describing something Kristian Birkeland predicted over 100 years ago, and got laughed at for. The second video details their surprise at finding new stars in supposedly old clusters. And the third details a solar flare that dragged a sun spot around a little. According to standard theory that is equivalent in their own words to the tail wagging the dog. If you don't want to "waste" too much time run the vids at 2x speed with the subtitles on. I found them interesting.
    No, I haven't watched those particular videos yet. I've watched others that they made, and have reviewed some of their writings. The thing is, they present themselves like cranks who reject all science without any understanding. That's not how science progresses. When Einstein's Relatively replaced Newton's Mechanics, it didn't mean that everything about Newton's theory was wrong. On the contrary, it showed that Newton's theory was low-velocity approximation of Einstein's theory. This is as it must be, because Newton's theory has been shown to work over a vast range of phenomena.

    Is this what the electric universe people are doing? Is there theory consistent with established observations? Can it account for all the observations that have already been made and verified?

    I'll take a look at the videos and let you know what I think.

    Great chatting,

    Richard

    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    Silence here posting from the employee computer before work - Another acknowledgement of electric forces playing a role in planetary geology features that were previously unexplained- https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2017/04/25/22528/
    I watched that video. It made no sense at all. After giving a bunch of examples of phenomena that established scientists say may be caused by electricity, it ended by saying that "all the space sciences need to recognize the undeniable significance of electricity in nature." That's just nuts. All scientists recognize electromagnetism as one of the four fundamental forces in nature. And the examples given in the video prove that point.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    Hi Richard - I figured you might appreciate a little distraction from the running dialogue going on in the other threads. I check in at the Thunderbolts.info site every few days to see if they have released anything new and came across these three videos yesterday. It appears the mainstream is starting to make "discoveries" that the Electric Universe proponents have been talking about for years. Maybe they are seen as 'discoveries' because they are finding things they weren't looking for? https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/201...th-space-news/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU74kAmONQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT3DWZBKoRk
    I just watched the first of the three links, and again, I get the impression that the proponents of the "electric universe" are cranks who imagine there is some great conspiracy against their "discoveries." They sound like religious cult members, not scientists. Now don't get me wrong, I know that scientists are human and so have biases like everyone else, and so have mocked new ideas, such as plate tectonics, before being forced to accept them by the evidence. But that's a far cry from a massive conspiracy. If the electric universe folks have real evidence, they should present it in real scientific papers and quit with the videos that make them sound like nuts.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    Hi Richard - I figured you might appreciate a little distraction from the running dialogue going on in the other threads. I check in at the Thunderbolts.info site every few days to see if they have released anything new and came across these three videos yesterday. It appears the mainstream is starting to make "discoveries" that the Electric Universe proponents have been talking about for years. Maybe they are seen as 'discoveries' because they are finding things they weren't looking for? https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/201...th-space-news/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU74kAmONQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT3DWZBKoRk
    Here's a list of claims made by various "Electric Universe" proponents that I found on this page:

    Claims

    • Einstein's postulates are wrong.[8]
    • General relativity (GR) is wrong.[9]
    • The Universe is not expanding.[10]
    • The electric force travels faster than the speed of light with near-infinite velocity.[8]
    • Gravity has two poles like a bar magnet; dipole gravity.[11]
    • A plenum of neutrinos forms an all-pervasive aether.[8]
    • Planets give birth to comets.[12]
    • Stars do not shine because of internal nuclear fusion caused by gravitational collapse. Rather, they are anodes for galactic discharge currents.[13]
    • Impact craters on Venus, Mars and the Moon are not caused by impacts, but by electrical discharges.[14] The same applies to the Valles Marineris (a massive canyon on Mars) and the Grand Canyon on Earth.[15]
    • The Sun is negatively charged, and the solar wind is positively charged ? the two systems forming a giant capacitor (this is James McCanney's particular erroneous belief.)[citation needed]
    • EU proponents from the Thunderbolts Project claim to have predicted the natures of Pluto and Comet 67P more accurately than NASA or ESA.[16][17]


    It would be happy to discuss these with you if you are actually interested in evaluating the validity of their claims. For example, are you familiar with the various ways that General Relativity has been verified? How do you explain gravitational lensing? How do you explain time dilation that is used to make GPS more accurate? What about the perihelion of Mercury?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    I watched that video. It made no sense at all. After giving a bunch of examples of phenomena that established scientists say may be caused by electricity, it ended by saying that "all the space sciences need to recognize the undeniable significance of electricity in nature." That's just nuts. All scientists recognize electromagnetism as one of the four fundamental forces in nature. And the examples given in the video prove that point.
    The main point that the T-Bolts folks are making in this video is that it is only very recently that the mainstream scientific community has acknowledged electricity as playing a major role in forming geological features that previously had been given very speculative kinetic explanations. Electric Universe proponents have been talking about this stuff for years. If, as you claim, scientists were and are so cognizant of the role of electromagnetism in nature, why is a proposal involving electro-static formation of dunes on Titan made by some of these scientists described as "shocking"? (found at the :50 mark) It is shocking because the idea of electrical forces playing a major role in space was put on the sidelines a long time ago and made the towel boy for the gravity boys on the football team, thanks in large part to Mr. Chapman.

    In the segment 1:59 - 2:32, they are pointing out that the article seemed to suggest that winds moved the particles to start with and that static electricity caused them to stick together and make unexpected formations. So kinetics is again playing the major role with electricity as the sidekick. The video points out the fact that the article did not mention the possibility that the winds themselves may be electrically driven i.e. "ionic winds" (demonstrated at 2:27). The T-Bolts group have made a lot of predictions in the past that electricity will one day be found to play a much larger role than the "accompanying side-effect" to kinetic forces that it is now given when describing many weather phenomena like thunderstorm clouds, hurricanes, and dust devils. They make similar predictions about the "ice geysers" on Enceladus and the volcanoes on Io that moved several kilometers in a few months.

    I don't think that the EU folks are paranoid or over-reacting at all. In the first video link on my opening post Donald Scott is pointing out that the scientists who discovered the Birkeland currents causing super-heated, supersonic jets of plasma in our atmosphere are either ignorant of Hannes Alfven, Anthony Peratt and especially Stig Lindquist (who developed a model back in 1950 that predicts most of the "discoveries" that the SWARM scientists have recently claimed), or they purposely refused to acknowledge that the work these folks did has any relevance in predicting their discoveries. Mr. Scott does not follow their example and gives credit where it is due (2:50 - 3:10). He also points out that he had a paper published in 2015 that elaborates on Lindquist's model of Birkeland current structure and predicted the counter-rotation that the SWARM mission's discovery implies, but that they fail to mention, either because they weren't looking for it or because they don't know how to explain it. It is also possible that they don't like the implication that Mr Scott proposes for counter-rotating field-aligned currents, that being their ability to carry large amounts of current, remain coherent and resist diffusion for huge distances. Mr. Scott claims that a lot of what the mainstream calls "jets" (implying kinetics) shooting out of objects in space are really field aligned Birkeland currents. On the previous thread I did on the EU theory, I posted a picture of a series of filaments with stars forming at regular intervals on them, and that were many, many light years long and uniform in width for their whole length. The scientists who made this discovery said the uniform width over that kind of distance demands an explanation, and the one offered was "shock waves from exploding super-novas", which according to my cave-man scientific brain would seem to produce curves and rounded features where these filaments changed direction. Instead the picture showed these filaments looking more like lightning bolts, with sharp turns in direction, sometimes at very acute angles. Not much like one would expect from an explosion. You don't have to be a scientist to realize that the terminology like "jets" and "shock-waves" used in scientific press releases naturally brings to mind kinetic forces, not electrical. Electricity is a wierd thing, people are fascinated by it and at the same time afraid of it too. I wonder if anyone has ever studied what effect this may have had on the history of electricity in science?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    The main point that the T-Bolts folks are making in this video is that it is only very recently that the mainstream scientific community has acknowledged electricity as playing a major role in forming geological features that previously had been given very speculative kinetic explanations. Electric Universe proponents have been talking about this stuff for years.

    If, as you claim, scientists were and are so cognizant of the role of electromagnetism in nature, why is a proposal involving electro-static formation of dunes on Titan made by some of these scientists described as "shocking"? (found at the :50 mark) It is shocking because the idea of electrical forces playing a major role in space was put on the sidelines a long time ago and made the towel boy for the gravity boys on the football team, thanks in large part to Mr. Chapman.


    This is patently FALSE! You have been grossly misled. You should have skipped the Electric Universe woo-woo and went straight to the source. The video you posted did nothing other than quote mine the Scientific American article.

    Your video claims this at .53. Now, some scientists are suggesting a shocking solution to these backward-facing drifts: They may be sculpted not only by wind, but also by electrostatic forces.

    Here is the article in question. https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-weird-shapes/



    These claims have been KNOWN for over a decade by the scientific community. From the same article.


    The idea that Titan possesses electrified sand is not exactly new, having appeared for more than a decade in scientific literature and elsewhere. Consider this whimsical snippet from a 2007 Titan-themed poem by study co-author Mike Malaska, a scientist in the Planetary Ices Group at the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory: ?Methane sky;
ethane drizzle.
Surface made of organic shizzle.
Dunes of plastic;
it?s fantastic.
Let?s get sticky
and electrostatic.? But no one had robustly tested the idea.

    But other experts say there could be other explanations. From the same article.

    Other experts caution, however, that it is too soon to conclude Titan?s sands are electrified based solely on remote images of dunes and Earthbound laboratory experiments. According to Jani Radebaugh, a planetary scientist at Brigham Young University who was not involved in the study, these results are notable because they represent a big step forward in studying the Saturnian moon?s surface. ?Appealing to electrostatic charging on grains complicates things,? Radebaugh says. ?I suspect this might not be any more complicated than our just not having the models right?that surface winds just blow in the opposite direction than we think. But getting in the lab and working with these exotic materials could well be a stepping-stone to better understanding processes on Titan.?

    Ralph Lorenz, a planetary scientist at Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory who was also not part of the research, agrees that more work is needed before we understand Titan?s mysteries. ?Electrostatic charging could be quite important in ultimately controlling how sand moves on Titan, particularly with regard to relations between dune orientation and [winds],? he says. Even so, he says, there are other explanations for the backward-facing dunes, largely contingent on what exactly they are made of and the speed and directionality of Titan?s winds. ?To know what wind you need to make sand move on Titan, you really need to go there,? Lorenz says.







    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    In the segment 1:59 - 2:32, they are pointing out that the article seemed to suggest that winds moved the particles to start with and that static electricity caused them to stick together and make unexpected formations. So kinetics is again playing the major role with electricity as the sidekick. The video points out the fact that the article did not mention the possibility that the winds themselves may be electrically driven i.e. "ionic winds" (demonstrated at 2:27). The T-Bolts group have made a lot of predictions in the past that electricity will one day be found to play a much larger role than the "accompanying side-effect" to kinetic forces that it is now given when describing many weather phenomena like thunderstorm clouds, hurricanes, and dust devils. They make similar predictions about the "ice geysers" on Enceladus and the volcanoes on Io that moved several kilometers in a few months.

    Their predictions have no explanatory power. It's fine to say that our current models are flawed. Shouldn't their predicted models be able to explain everything our current models do based on the data we have? And shouldn't their models be adaptable as new data is discovered? I think so. This is one of the major reasons the Electric Universe theory is not taken seriously. There are no predictive models that account for ALL the data we do have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    I don't think that the EU folks are paranoid or over-reacting at all. In the first video link on my opening post Donald Scott is pointing out that the scientists who discovered the Birkeland currents causing super-heated, supersonic jets of plasma in our atmosphere are either ignorant of Hannes Alfven, Anthony Peratt and especially Stig Lindquist (who developed a model back in 1950 that predicts most of the "discoveries" that the SWARM scientists have recently claimed), or they purposely refused to acknowledge that the work these folks did has any relevance in predicting their discoveries.
    That is not true at all. Credible people like Hannes Alfven did NOT subscribe to the EU quackery. Crackpots have taken bits of his work to propose their own narrative backed by scanty evidence.

    Here is thorough 48 page pulverizing of Donald Scott's work. http://web.archive.org/web/201504160...on-against.pdf

    Here was Don Scott's weak rebuttal. http://electric-cosmos.org/RebutTB.pdf

    Where are all of Scott's peer reviewed papers proving his claims?
    Last edited by L67; 04-28-2017 at 05:58 PM.
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