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  1. #271
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    Richard, before we go any further, could you do what I've asked you to do several times now and run a test on the combined lists of 43 (with or without any changes you might wish to make) and 26. I believe that the statistical significance of the code will be more clearly visible if we use a longer list of items, and my own binomial probability tests support that contention. An actual trial with 100 random numbers would hopefully confirm it.

    Thanks in advance. Your expertise and willingness to roll up your sleeves here have been greatly appreciated.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Here's the conclusion you wrote on that page:

    Encrypted within names, numbers and forms associated with the two structures at the heart of 9/11 is a multi-disciplinary puzzle, the solution to which provides a profound, disturbing and ultimately moving explanation for the carnage wrought on that day. September the 11th, 2001 was the prophesied final ?day of the Lord?, when our world was called to judgment by Jesus Christ, who came ?on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory? and destroyed the two most potent symbols of man?s sin.

    I don't understand. How could it be the "day of the Lord" when life has contuinued pretty much as it always has? How do you understand this verse?

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

    I guess you must be interpreting the Bible in an extremely symbolic way, since everyone knows those events have not literally happened.
    Much of Jewish and early Christian writing has this kind of hyperbole. The events they describe were based on visions they probably had and was framed in the language of the time. That does not mean that 9/11 was purely symbolic. I see the event, like the code itself, as a manifestation of the Second Coming. There was real destruction on the physical plane, not worldwide, but local. The real apocalypse, however, is internal, rather than external. Moreover its effect on the psyche of man was greatly magnified by the fact that the entire world was watching these events as they unfolded. One evening in 2002, as I was wondering what 9/11 meant, I had an open vision consisting of two words.

    ARMS AVARICE

    There are 11 letters. The ordinal value is 110 and AA is 11 again. The words are 51 (demon) and 59 (dragon). The letters in the words give 47 (beast). 11 means disorder, imperfection and disintegration in biblical numerics.

    Arms is force of arms, the military force behind the USA's hegemony. Avarice is lust for money, and refers to the financial power it wields. The twin towers, or world trade centre and Pentagon, were the very horns of the beast itself, and were literally shattered, like Daniel's ram, on 9/11. 9/11 achieved maximum effect with minimum destruction and symbolised an event that is taking place in the psyche of man, the death of the old fear-driven mindset, the 'old man', and the birth of something finer within us, symbolised by the manchild. It was a sacrifice, representing the Day of Atonement and the Crucifixion in one. It was also a conception, as the Day of Atonement had symbolised from the start.

    If 9/11 was the Crucifixion, which event was the Resurrection? It was the funeral of Pope John Paul II on 8/4/05. The two events (9/11 and the funeral were almost exactly 3.5 years apart, a period of time hinted at in Daniel and Revelation, and were the 254th and 1559th days of the new Millennium. Now look:

    Our Lord Jesus Christ (o) = 254
    Our Lord Jesus Christ (s) = 1559

    These are the same two systems the Key taught me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    How could anyone know if your interpretation were true? It seems entirely unfalsifiable. It reminds me of explanations date setters use to explain their failed predictions. Like when Harold Camping predicted that the Rapture would happen very literally on May 21, 2011. But then when his prediction failed, he said it actually did happen "spiritually." And the Seventh Day Adventists did the same thing when their prediction of Christ's return in 1844 failed. And the Jehovah's Witnesses said that Christ took his seat and "spiritually" judged the world in 1914 when their prediction of his literal return failed. It seems you skipped the literal part and went straight to the unverifiable "spiritual" interpretation.
    It's an interpretation of events that have already occurred and makes no predictions. It does, however state in unequivocal terms that the Second Coming has arrived. I am not saying it is over, but I am saying that it has begun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    So what is the value of your interpretation? Suppose it were true? What are we supposed to do in response? Why did God go through the bother of encoding all this information?
    How you respond is up to you. It was done to save man from destroying himself, as he is close to doing, as a symbol of the internal apocalypse, the crucifixion of the ego mind (corrupted by the demon of economic imperialism, the dragon of consumerism and the false prophet of the global media) that is presently occurring on a scale never before seen in the world, our resurrection as higher consciousness is birthed within us, and more.
    Last edited by thebluetriangle; 05-15-2017 at 09:49 AM.

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Much of Jewish and early Christian writing has this kind of hyperbole. The events they describe were based on visions they probably had and was framed in the language of the time. That does not mean that 9/11 was purely symbolic. I see the event, like the code itself, as a manifestation of the Second Coming. There was real destruction on the physical plane, not worldwide, but local. The real apocalypse, however, is internal, rather than external. Moreover its effect on the psyche of man was greatly magnified by the fact that the entire world was watching these events as they unfolded. One evening in 2002, as I was wondering what 9/11 meant, I had an open vision consisting of two words.

    ARMS AVARICE

    There are 11 letters. The ordinal value is 110 and AA is 11 again. The words are 51 (demon) and 59 (dragon). The letters in the words give 47 (beast). 11 means disorder, imperfection and disintegration in biblical numerics.
    Bible Numerics? How exactly do you determine the "meaning" of a number like 11? Are you following a tradition that you have read, or do you have a method to discern the meaning? I was never impressed with most of the popular bible numerology even when I believed that the numbers had symbolic meaning in the Bible. For example, most pop bible numerics teach that 13 is the number of "sin and rebellion" because the first mention of "sinners" in the KJV is in Genesis 13:13, amplified by other cherry picked occurrences of 13 (which also happened to fit with the popular superstitions around that number). This totally contradicted what I "derived" from the fact that the Hebrew words for love and unity sum to 13, and I thought God used this in his design of the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians (The Love Chapter) which has 13 verses. It seems likely that the numbers are all random and people get an idea in their head and then cherry pick hits to "confirm" what they already believe.

    Given that bible numerics is an essential aspect of your thesis, I think it would be good if you could justify your assertion about the meaning of the number 11.
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  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Bible Numerics? How exactly do you determine the "meaning" of a number like 11? Are you following a tradition that you have read, or do you have a method to discern the meaning? I was never impressed with most of the popular bible numerology even when I believed that the numbers had symbolic meaning in the Bible. For example, most pop bible numerics teach that 13 is the number of "sin and rebellion" because the first mention of "sinners" in the KJV is in Genesis 13:13, amplified by other cherry picked occurrences of 13 (which also happened to fit with the popular superstitions around that number). This totally contradicted what I "derived" from the fact that the Hebrew words for love and unity sum to 13, and I thought God used this in his design of the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians (The Love Chapter) which has 13 verses. It seems likely that the numbers are all random and people get an idea in their head and then cherry pick hits to "confirm" what they already believe.

    Given that bible numerics is an essential aspect of your thesis, I think it would be good if you could justify your assertion about the meaning of the number 11.
    Certainly. It comes from the properties of the number itself and as its use within the Bible. 11 is one short of twelve, which in the Bible represents perfect government, for example the twelve disciples and twelve tribes. It's also one more than 10, considered to represent divine order and law. In either case the perfection/order is lost.

    Here are two studies on eleven:

    http://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/t...numbers-11-20/

    https://philologos.org/__eb-nis/eleven.htm

  5. #275
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    Richard,

    Have you had time to run the test I requested?

    To recap, I asked you to combine your version of the Genesis list of created things with my latest list of the parts of the tabernacle and the ark within it. There is no duplication across them so it will simply be a longer list of items than any you've tested so far.

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Richard,

    Have you had time to run the test I requested?

    To recap, I asked you to combine your version of the Genesis list of created things with my latest list of the parts of the tabernacle and the ark within it. There is no duplication across them so it will simply be a longer list of items than any you've tested so far.
    Hey there Bill,

    Sorry for the slow response. The thing is, I felt it important to update my list of 43 before running the test because of your very valid criticism you gave back in post #253:

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    You include 'day' and 'night', but miss out 'evening' and 'morning'. Why? If you're going to include the first two, consistency demands you include the other two. That's one example. Another example is your duplication. You have 'creatures' and 'the creatures', which is two instances in different verses. But it's supposed to be the first instance only. Then there's 'Wild Animals according to their kinds' and 'The Wild Animals according to their kinds'. Surely it has to be one or the other? Why did you stop at 'man'? You could have added 'fish' too, and 'green plant', since you were including every named type of plant and animal.
    So here is my updated list. I followed your suggestions to add evening and morning and to remove the duplicated items. The list now has 29 pairs:

    The Heavens 782 Hashamayam 395
    The Earth 517 Haaretz 296
    The Deep 297 Tehom 451
    Darkness 370 V'choshek 334
    The Waters 1109 Hamayim 95
    Light 254 Aur 207
    Day 705 Yom 56
    Night 274 Lilah 75
    Evening 526 Arev 272
    Morning 306 Boker 302
    An Expanse 882 Raquia 380
    Sky 820 Shamayim 390
    Dry Ground 1305 Hayabbashah 322
    Land 85 Aretz 291
    Seas 206 Yomim 100
    Vegetation 937 Deshe 305
    Plants 451 Eseb 372
    Trees 400 Etz 160
    Lights 354 Marot 641
    The Greater Light 865 Hamaur Hagadol 294
    The Lesser Light 797 Hamaur Haqatan 416
    The Stars 704 Hakokavim 103
    Living Creatures 1299 Sheretz 590
    Birds 205 oph 156
    The Great Creatures of the Sea 1695 Hatanninnim Hagedol 647
    Every Living and Moving Thing 2600 Kol Nephesh Hachayah v'haremesht 1453
    Livestock 827 Behemah 52
    The Wild Animals 987 Chaiot Haaretz 714
    MAN 91 ADAM 45

    For simplicity, I only included pairs found in the description of the six days in Genesis 1. I'm pretty sure a more detailed list would give similar results. Here is what I found running 100 randomized tests:

    Name:  bg_randomized_ram29.JPG
Views: 42
Size:  56.1 KB


    As you can see, this list shows no statistically significant deviation from what we would expect in a random set of pairs.

    I then combined my list with yours to get a set of 55 test pairs. Here is the result:

    Name:  bg_randomized_ram29_bill26.JPG
Views: 42
Size:  59.7 KB


    I would be very surprised it the modest statistical variation were not due to cherry picking since the lists are hand picked and we have not found any objective general principles that unambiguously determine the content of the pairs. There is ambiguity in what to include in both the English and the Hebrew. You get about 30 hits for free from an average random data set, and you list only adds 12, so I really don't see anything that looks like "design" by an intelligent agent.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  7. #277
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    The name of God consists of a "y-h"-part and a "v-h"-part.

    "y-h"= 15
    "v-h"= 11

    Exodus 17:16,
    And he said, For there is a hand on the throne of the Eternal, [that there shall be] a war for the Lord against Amalek from generation to generation.

    For there is a hand on the throne of the Eternal = כִּי יָד עַל כֵּס יָהּ , "ki yad al kes yah"


    Rashi:
    For there is a hand on the throne of the Eternal: Heb. כִּי-יָד עַל כֵּס יָ-הּ. The hand of the Holy One, blessed be He, was raised to swear by His throne, to have a war and [bear] hatred against Amalek for eternity. Now what is the meaning of כֵּס [as opposed to כִּסֵא and also [why is] the Divine Name divided in half? [I.e., why is the Name יָ-הּ used instead of י-ה-ו-ה ?] [The answer is that] the Holy One, blessed be He, swore that His Name will not be complete and His throne will not be complete until the name of Amalek is completely obliterated. And when his name is obliterated, the Divine Name will be complete, and the throne will be complete, as it is said: ?The enemy has been destroyed; swords exist forever (לָנֶצַח)? (Ps. 9:7); this [who they are referring to] is Amalek, about whom it is written: ?and kept their fury forever (נֶצַח)? (Amos 1:11). "And You have uprooted the cities-their remembrance is lost" (Ps. 9:7) [i.e., Amalek?s obliteration]. What does it say afterwards? ?And the Lord (וַיהוה) shall sit forever? (Ps. 9:8); thus [after Amalek is obliterated] the Name is complete. "He has established His throne (כִּסְאוֹ) for judgment" (Ps. 9:8). Thus the throne is complete [i.e., thus the throne, here spelled with an ?aleph,? is now complete]. ? [from Midrash Tanchuma, end of Ki Theitzei]

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there Bill,

    Sorry for the slow response. The thing is, I felt it important to update my list of 43 before running the test because of your very valid criticism you gave back in post #253:

    So here is my updated list. I followed your suggestions to add evening and morning and to remove the duplicated items.
    I didn't say you should add them. I said that it was inconsistent to include day and night and exclude evening and morning. I don't agree with the rules by which you have been choosing your items, but even then you weren't being consistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    The list now has 29 pairs:

    The Heavens 782 Hashamayam 395
    The Earth 517 Haaretz 296
    The Deep 297 Tehom 451
    Darkness 370 V'choshek 334
    The Waters 1109 Hamayim 95
    Light 254 Aur 207
    Day 705 Yom 56
    Night 274 Lilah 75
    Evening 526 Arev 272
    Morning 306 Boker 302
    An Expanse 882 Raquia 380
    Sky 820 Shamayim 390
    Dry Ground 1305 Hayabbashah 322
    Land 85 Aretz 291
    Seas 206 Yomim 100
    Vegetation 937 Deshe 305
    Plants 451 Eseb 372
    Trees 400 Etz 160
    Lights 354 Marot 641
    The Greater Light 865 Hamaur Hagadol 294
    The Lesser Light 797 Hamaur Haqatan 416
    The Stars 704 Hakokavim 103
    Living Creatures 1299 Sheretz 590
    Birds 205 oph 156
    The Great Creatures of the Sea 1695 Hatanninnim Hagedol 647
    Every Living and Moving Thing 2600 Kol Nephesh Hachayah v'haremesht 1453
    Livestock 827 Behemah 52
    The Wild Animals 987 Chaiot Haaretz 714
    MAN 91 ADAM 45

    For simplicity, I only included pairs found in the description of the six days in Genesis 1.
    The problem with this list is that it is not about what God created. So you are not testing my original claim on the website, that the Garden reflects the text itself, by including the things the text states God made during the six days of Creation. This is another list entirely, a list of things in can be infered that God created, plus some things God named. Darkness is arguable, but even then the coding would not be in Genesis 1. By the same logic as the rest of the list is would be the word in the verse where it is stated God made the darkness!

    In short, your list only partially reflects what I originally claimed. However, neither did your 43 and I asked you to combine it with mine. I see you've done that with the 29, so I'll comment on the combined list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    I'm pretty sure a more detailed list would give similar results.
    This is painting a false picture, Richard. All else being equal, the p value (probability) is dependent on two things here

    1) the percentage of hits - it should be as high as possible to show design
    2) the length of the list - if the list is long and the percentage high then design is probable.

    Your changes to the list have only lowered the percentage a little, from 77% to 72%, but they have shortened it considerably. So your 'more accurate' list, which really only gives one less hit than it would have if the percentages were the same, is mostly showing less statistical significance because it is shorter. That's all.

    If we shortened the list to fifteen and the number of hits was 11, a slightly higher percentage than 21/29, then the statistical significance drops even lower. It becomes a 1 in 8 shot, instead of a 1 in 20 shot, as it is just now.

    All you have done is shortened the list, not altered the percentage of hits, and this is why you are painting a false picture here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Here is what I found running 100 randomized tests:

    Name:  bg_randomized_ram29.JPG
Views: 42
Size:  56.1 KB


    As you can see, this list shows no statistically significant deviation from what we would expect in a random set of pairs.

    Even at that the list does quite well, in the top 15% of pairs. Every single list of Biblical numbers either of us has compilled has given results better than average, all except one, this one, being 2.5 to 3 SDs above the mean (this one is just over 1 SD above the mean). Every one.

    This is like trying to distinguish a Swedes from 100 pigmies by height. The pigmies vary in height but nearly all of them are shorter than the average Swede. Now you find a short Swede, little Olaf, find that 14 out of your 100 pigmies are taller than him, them claim that because of that he isn't a Swede and must be a pigmy. It's absurd. The Swedes vary in height too.

    The variations in significance are because we are picking the biblical lists on different bases and because the lists are different lengths.

    So now lets look at the longest list so far, the combined list of 55. . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    I then combined my list with yours to get a set of 55 test pairs. Here is the result:

    Name:  bg_randomized_ram29_bill26.JPG
Views: 42
Size:  59.7 KB


    I would be very surprised it the modest statistical variation were not due to cherry picking since the lists are hand picked and we have not found any objective general principles that unambiguously determine the content of the pairs.
    What a load of crap.

    There are several points here.

    1. My list is based on the strictest set of rules either of us has devised yet: a) all the tabernacle parts and ark components, b) first biblical mention, c) shortest number of words to define the component, d) exact NIV translation. That leaves no room for maneuvre at all. None. Okay?

    2. You list is just over 1 SD above the mean. Mine is just under 3 SDs above the mean. But the combined list is well over 3 Sds above the mean. How can me cherry picking my list have boosted the combined score higher than my own list? No, it's better because the list is longer! Even if my list was no better than your own the combined list would still be 2SDs above the mean.

    3. You are totally ignoring the implications of the score above. This is the best result yet, about 3.5 SDs above the mean, better than 1 in 1000.

    If we plotted the statistical significance of the biblical lists against random numbers with the length of those lists, we would find that it rose as the number rose - and this, my friend, is the signal of a genuine code.

    How statistically significant would it be if there were 100 items on the list? I'll tell you, if the percentage of hits was the same, 76%, it would be a 1 in 90,000 shot! That would equate to about 5 standard deviations above the mean. And there is more encoded in the garden, so this is not a theoretical possibility.

    The longer the list, the more obvious it becomes that the code is real and not a fluke, because the harder it is to keep beating the odds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    There is ambiguity in what to include in both the English and the Hebrew. You get about 30 hits for free from an average random data set, and you list only adds 12, so I really don't see anything that looks like "design" by an intelligent agent.
    The lists were are using have been modified for testing, and, as I've been saying from the start, do not accurately capture what has actually been done. Because strict rules have to be applied for tests, there are 'misses'. But you cannot use those misses to say the code is not there, when they are reflecting the test method as much as the code, which is like a frost pattern in scripture, real but difficult to measure with crude instruments.
    Last edited by thebluetriangle; 05-17-2017 at 04:17 PM.

  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    The name of God consists of a "y-h"-part and a "v-h"-part.

    "y-h"= 15
    "v-h"= 11

    Exodus 17:16,
    And he said, For there is a hand on the throne of the Eternal, [that there shall be] a war for the Lord against Amalek from generation to generation.

    For there is a hand on the throne of the Eternal = כִּי יָד עַל כֵּס יָהּ , "ki yad al kes yah"


    Rashi:
    That is interesting, Sylvius. The chapter and verse indicators give 1716, which is 11 x 156. In fact it is 11 x 12 x 13.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    I didn't say you should add them. I said that it was inconsistent to include day and night and exclude evening and morning. I don't agree with the rules by which you have been choosing your items, but even then you weren't being consistent.
    I was following your lead Bill. You included the naming of the expanse "sky" on your garden page so I included the other things that were named like seas, day, and night. You then said if I included those things I should also include evening and morning, so that's what I did.

    I trust you can see why I pressed so hard to get you to define the general principles you use to create your lists. Without well-defined general principles that can be consistently applied by people other than yourself, your claims cannot be tested objectively. You can't state, let alone test, a hypothesis if it has not been sufficiently well defined. And most importantly, there is no way to check for cherry picking if you don't have well defined general principles.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    The problem with this list is that it is not about what God created. So you are not testing my original claim on the website, that the Garden reflects the text itself, by including the things the text states God made during the six days of Creation. This is another list entirely, a list of things in can be infered that God created, plus some things God named.
    Again, YOU are the one who included the naming of "sky" in your list. I was was fallowing your lead. And you contradict yourself when you include "the water" which was NOT explicitly stated as something that God created.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Darkness is arguable, but even then the coding would not be in Genesis 1. By the same logic as the rest of the list is would be the word in the verse where it is stated God made the darkness!
    Why wouldn't the coding of darkness be in Genesis 1 where we also find light? By that logic, the ark wouldn't be in Genesis 1 either!

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    All you have done is shortened the list, not altered the percentage of hits, and this is why you are painting a false picture here.
    Not true. I did not merely "shorten" the list. I removed duplicated pairs, which is what you said I should do.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    Even at that the list does quite well, in the top 15% of pairs. Every single list of Biblical numbers either of us has compilled has given results better than average, all except one, this one, being 2.5 to 3 SDs above the mean (this one is just over 1 SD above the mean). Every one.
    Yeah, the top 15% of a RANDOM list! LOL. That's no sign of any "code". There is nothing coded. This is self-evident because you cannot discern between a "coded" text and a random text. Being in the top 15% of a RANDOM set is no sign of any code.

    Is there anyway for you to know if a particular pair was "coded" or not? Nope! So where's the "code"? You have a "code" that doesn't actually code anything. It looks like all you are doing is trying to justify the stories you make up by showing that some words fit in the grid, as if you couldn't justify any story ever told that way. Seriously! I can use your method to justify ISLAM! The Grid contains the most important Islamic statement, the Basmala, as well as the Koran and the Prophet Muhammad. You dismissed those "codes" because you didn't like them, which proves that your method proves nothing at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebluetriangle View Post
    1. My list is based on the strictest set of rules either of us has devised yet: a) all the tabernacle parts and ark components, b) first biblical mention, c) shortest number of words to define the component, d) exact NIV translation. That leaves no room for maneuvre at all. None. Okay?
    Strict rules? Don't be ridiculous. You rightly complained about my list having "duplications" but then included three variations of the "ark" in your list!

    the ark of the testimony 1754 arown eduwth 730
    of this ark 494 arown 256
    a chest 317 arown 257

    All three of those pairs refer to the same object, the ark. You padded your list with duplications because you knew they were in the grid. And you omitted the most salient pair "ark/arown" because you knew it was not in the grid!

    Your cherry picking is transparently obvious. Your list is rigged.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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