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Thread: Daniel 9:23-27

  1. #21
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    If you can see "50" as the missing top of pyramid with "groundfloor" 7 x 7, then also "5" might be seen so, 5 is the value of the letter "hey", that is used as definite article, fe. in Genesis 1:31, "yom hashishi" the sixth day.

    How can you ever be sure that it is "the" day, and not a day as any other day? Only on "the sixth day of Sivan" = day of revelation.

  2. #22
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    So there are two ways of counting, a metaphysical way and an ordinary way.

    Which was also implied by the writng on the wall,

    Daniel 5:12, And this is the writing that it inscribed: MENE MENE TEKEIL UFARSIN. -- These are in fact (the names of certain) coins.

    http://www.bible-codes.org/daniel-wo...gematria-2.htm

    The secret of it was, that it was written in a script that no one could read except for Daniel, and this was apparently the Ashuri script that is characterized by its five final forms.




    Last letter of the writing on the wall being the final "nun", that is also last letter of Daniel 12:13, where a final "mem" had been appropriate.

  3. #23
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    dp:

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    "lechem" = bread, "beit-lechem" = house of bread.

    John 6:51, I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world”


    v.58, Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever


    Things that go far beyond (evil) preterism
    sylvius, I find your gematria rants over your next few posts interesting, but a preoccupation of denying to accept the clear teaching of Scripture, while turning the Bible into a gematria math formula, void of the written text.

    I am sure there is much more to this "beit-lechem" = house of bread, associated with Jesus' quote of John 6:51, as you quoted. And I am sure that there is false doctrinal evil in preterism. But partial preterism is as biblical and conservative approach to Scripture as you can find, even if they might be wrong in their views of the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24, Mk 13, and Lk 21) and Rev 1-19,22 being within the generation following the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus the Christ, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.

    As you will see, a second alternate view of Daniel 9:24-27 comes from the writing of a partial preterist. I plan on trying to summarise that view in a near future post. I am not a partial preterist, but some of their writers do have some insightful interpretations of portions of Scripture.

    dp

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpenn View Post



    sylvius, I find your gematria rants over your next few posts interesting, but a preoccupation of denying to accept the clear teaching of Scripture,
    It is not "clear teaching of scripture". The death of Jesus around the year 30 and the destruction of the Temple in the year 70 are not predicted, nor prophesied, by Daniel.

    Quote Originally Posted by dpenn View Post
    while turning the Bible into a gematria math formula, void of the written text.
    we've never done that.

    Quote Originally Posted by dpenn View Post
    I am sure there is much more to this "beit-lechem" = house of bread, associated with Jesus' quote of John 6:51, as you quoted. And I am sure that there is false doctrinal evil in preterism. But partial preterism is as biblical and conservative approach to Scripture as you can find, even if they might be wrong in their views of the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24, Mk 13, and Lk 21) and Rev 1-19,22 being within the generation following the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus the Christ, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.
    Generation is not the same as a certain fixed period of time. At this very moment there do live children, adults and aged people, many people die in this same moment and many are born or carried in their mother's womb. Where Matthew speaks of "this generation" all living people are intended, even also now, 10-1-2014.


    Quote Originally Posted by dpenn View Post
    As you will see, a second alternate view of Daniel 9:24-27 comes from the writing of a partial preterist.
    Partial preterists are as crooked as full preterists.

  5. #25
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    dp:

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Daniel 9:23 reads:

    In the beginning of your supplications, a word came forth, and I have come to tell it, for you have desirable qualities; now contemplate the word and understand the vision.


    a word came forth = "yatsa davar"

    Daniel 9:25,
    And you shall know and understand that from the coming forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times.

    from the coming forth of the word = "min motsa davar"


    So seemingly v. 23 and v. 25 speak about the same "word" (KJV has "commandment").

    The destruction of the Temple took place in the year 586 BCE.

    586 - 490 = 96 BCE, still about 166 years to go until the year 70 CE.
    sylvius, as promised, here is an add-on to post,

    #5 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7033#post67033

    An alternate revisionist approach, presented as food for thought (though not necessarily lechem from heaven ).

    btw: I am not a partial preterist, but do glean many things from SOME of their teaching.

    J Jordan, a partial preterist, presents the following in his Biblical Chronology articles, which, even if you reject, I am sure you will find thought provoking:

    Main assertion to prove: Artaxerxes is the same person as Darius.

    To begin with, Ezra and Nehemiah were one book in the Jewish Bible, where Ezra focuses on the rebuilding of the Temple, while Nehemiah focuses on the rebuilding of the wall.

    [B]In Nehemiah 10 we are given a list of the priests and Levites who signed the covenant renewal document prepared by Nehemiah (Neh 9:38). The names on this list are identical with those who returned to Jerusalem at the time of Cyrus’ decree. If the long chronology were correct, there would be a 91 year gap between these two events, whereas, in the short chronology, there are only 34 years between the two events.



    List of Priests in 1st year of Cyrus (Nehemiah 12:1-21)
    vs
    List of Priests in 20th year of Artaxerxes (Nehemiah 10:1-12)

    Number Priests in 1st year of Cyrus
    (Nehemiah 12:1-21)
    Priests in 20th year of Artaxerxes
    (Nehemiah 10:1-12)
    1. Seraiah Seraiah
    2. Jeremiah Jeremiah
    3. Ezra (Azariah)
    4. Amariah Amariah
    5. Malluch Malluch
    6. Hattush Hattush
    7. Shechaniah (Shebaniah) Shebaniah
    8. Rehum (Harim)
    9. Meremoth Meremoth
    10. Iddo
    11. Ginnetho Ginnethon
    12. Abijah Abijah
    13. Miamin Mijmin
    14. Maadiah (Maaziah)
    15. Bilgah Bilgai
    16. Shemiah Shemiah
    17. Joiarib
    18. Jedaiah
    19. Sallu (Sallai)
    20. Amok
    21. Hilkiah
    22. Jedaiah Jedaiah




    List of Levites in 1st year of Cyrus (Nehemiah 12:1-21)
    vs
    List of Levites in 20th year of Artaxerxes (Nehemiah 10:1-12)

    Number Levites in 1st year of Cyrus
    (Nehemiah 12:1-21)
    Levites in 20th year of Artaxerxes
    (Nehemiah 10:1-12)
    1. Jeshua Jeshua
    2. Binnui Binnui
    3. Kadmiel Kadmiel
    4. Sherebiah Shebaniah
    5. Judah Hodijah cp. Ezra 2:40; 3:9)
    6. Mattaniah
    7. Bakbuldah
    8. Unni


    It is quite natural that 20 out of 30 men would be alive 34 years later, but not so, 91 years later. Modern commentators get around this by saying the names in Nehemiah 10 are family names, not personal names, that is, they are the names of the priestly courses. Firstly, a number of the names in Nehemiah 10:1-27 are found in Nehemiah 3. Secondly, if the names in the two lists are meant to be priestly courses, then the two lists should be identical, which they are not.

    Martin Anstey presents the following list of High Priests in his book, The Romance of Bible Chronology, volume 1, p 255:

    The succession of the high priests was as follows (1 Chron. 6:3-15, Ezra 3:2, 7:1-5, Neh. 12:10-11) :
    List of High Priests from Aaron to Jaddua:
    1. Aaron.
    2. Eleazer.
    3. Phinehas.
    4. Abishua.
    5. Bukki.
    6. Uzzi.
    7. Zerahiah.
    8. Meraioth.
    9. Amariah I.
    10. Ahitub I.
    11. Zadok I.
    12. Ahimaaz.
    13. Azariah I.
    14. Johanan.
    15. Azariah II, contemporary with Solomon (1 Chron. 6:10) B.C. 1023-983.
    16. Amariah II.
    17. Ahitub II.
    18. Zadok II.
    19. Shallum.
    20. Hilkiah, contemporary with Josiah (2 Chron. 34:9) B.C. 639-608.
    21. Azariah III.
    22. Seraiah. Slain by Nebuchadnezzar (2 Kings 25:18-22) B.C. 586.
    23. Jehozadak, went into captivity (1 Chron. 6:15) B.C. 586.
    24. Joshua, returned with Zerubbabel (Ezra 3:2) B.C. 536.
    25. Joiakim, contemp. with Nehemiah and Ezra (Neh. 12:26) B.C. 515-490.
    26. Eliashib, allied to Tobiah (Neh. 13:4, 6:18) younger contemporary
    of Nehemiah (Neh. 3:1, 13:4-5) B.C. 502-488.
    27. Joiada.
    28. Jonathan (Johanan).
    29. Jaddua, contemporary with Darius, the last Persian King, who was
    slain by Alexander the Great B.C. 330.


    Note: Anstey uses Ptolemaic B.C. dates here, but he makes a case for 82 less years to account for Ptolemy's error in stating the chronology of the Persian kings. Jordan and many other conservative Christians also believe that modern chronologists have misrepresented all dates that precede the Persian kings by 82 years.


    Anstey, p.247,

    Two lists are given here. The first is identical with the list of the priests who returned to Jerusalem with Zerubbabel (Neh 12:1-7) except that we have here only 21 names instead of 22, the name of Hattush, No. 6, being omitted. The second list is the list of their eldest sons who succeeded them, either on their death, or on their becoming too aged to discharge the duties of their office in the days of Joiakim, i.e. immediately before, or else during the days of Ezra and Nehemiah (Neh. 12:26), which of course carries us on to the 20th, or possibly to the 32nd year of Artaxerxes, B.C. 502-490. This list contains only 20 names, the eldest son of Miniamin, No. 13, being omitted.



    Anstey’s Priests who Returned with Zerubbabel and Jeshua
    Neh 12:1-7; 12:12-21
    vs
    Eldest Sons: Priests in the Days of Joiakim the Son of Jeshua
    Neh 12:12-21

    Priests who Returned with
    Zerubbabel and Jeshua
    Neh 12:1-7; 12:12-21
    Eldest Sons: Priests in the
    Days of Joiakim the Son of Jeshua
    Neh 12:12-21
    1. Seriah Meraiah
    2. Jeremiah Hananiah
    3. Ezra Meshullam
    4. Amariah Jehohanun
    5. Melicu Jonathan
    6. Hattush (omitted Neh 12:12-27)
    7. Shebaniah Joseph
    8. Harim Adna
    9. Meraioth Helkai
    11. Ginnethon Meshullam
    12. Abijah Zichri
    13.Miniamin
    14. Moadiah Piltai
    15. Bilgai Shammua
    16. Shemaiah Jehonathan
    17. Joiarib Mattenai
    18. Jedaiah Uzzi
    19. Sallai Kallai
    20. Amok Eber
    21. Hilkiah Hashabiah
    22. Jedaiah Nethaneel


    ... to be continued ...

    #26 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7067#post67067

    #27 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7069#post67069

    #28 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7070#post67070

    #31 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7074#post67074

    dp
    Last edited by dpenn; 10-24-2014 at 03:19 PM.

  6. #26
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    dp:

    … continued from posts,

    #5 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7033#post67033

    #25 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7064#post67064

    sylvius,

    An alternate revisionist approach, presented as food for thought (though not necessarily lechem from heaven ).

    btw: I am not a partial preterist, but do glean many things from SOME of their teaching.

    J Jordan, a partial preterist, presents the following in his Biblical Chronology articles, which, even if you reject, I am sure you will find thought provoking:

    Main assertion to prove: Artaxerxes is the same person as Darius.


    Old Jeshua died immediately after the Temple was dedicated, which means that his son Joiakim took over at the time Ezra arrived, a year later. Joiakim’s son was Eliashib (Neh 12:10) , who had two sons, Joiada (Neh 12:10) , who served first as high priest, and Johanan (Neh 12:23; Ezra 10:6) , who served with and after him.

    Short chronology possible time-line:

    Darius yr 6 – Jeshua age 80, dies; Joiakim 60; Eliashib 40; Joiada 20; Johanan 18

    Darius yr 7 – Johanan 19, has room in Temple (Ezra 10:6)

    Darius yr 14 – Johanan 26, has title of high priest, according to Elephantine letters

    Darius yr 17 – Johanan 29, has title of high priest, according to Elephantine letters

    Darius yr 20 – Nehemiah arrives; Joiakim 74; Eliashib 54; Joiada 34; Johanan 32; Joiada’s unnamed son (Jonathan?) 14

    Darius yr 33 – Nehemiah’s 2nd visit (Neh 13:28); Eliashib 67; Joiada 47; Johanan 45; Joiada’s son (Jonathan?), married 27; Jaddua 2.


    Because the present scholarly opinion is that Ezra and Nehemiah lived in the of Artaxerxes Longimanus, it is assumed that the Darius of the Elephantine papyri must be Darius II, who followed Longimanus. In terms of the short chronology, however, these letters should be understood as having been written in the time of Darius the Great.

    Ezra was still alive when Nehemiah arrived in the 20th year of Darius’ reign, and was alive at the dedication of the wall, however, it is erroneously believed by many that it was constructed in 52 days (Neh 6:15). But Nehemiah 5:14 says that he was in Jerusalem for 12 years. Before he left to rebuild the wall, Nehemiah told the King of Persia that he would return (Neh 2:6). And in Neh 6:1, it says, “no breach remained in it [the wall] although at that time I had not set up the doors in the gates”. Then in 6:15, “So the wall was finished in the twenty and fifth day of the month Elul, in fifty and two days.”, suggesting that it took 12 years to complete the walls, followed by 52 days to install the gates. Then Nehemiah returned to Persia, having completed his task.

    … to be continued …

    #27 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7069#post67069

    #28 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7070#post67070

    #31 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7074#post67074

    dp
    Last edited by dpenn; 10-22-2014 at 10:11 AM.

  7. #27
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    dp:

    … continued from posts,

    #5 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7033#post67033

    #25 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7064#post67064

    #26 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7067#post67067

    sylvius,

    An alternate revisionist approach, presented as food for thought (though not necessarily lechem from heaven ).

    btw: I am not a partial preterist, but do glean many things from SOME of their teaching.

    J Jordan, a partial preterist, presents the following in his Biblical Chronology articles, which, even if you reject, I am sure you will find thought provoking:

    Main assertion to prove: Artaxerxes is the same person as Darius.

    (Although hypothesized revisionist dates will be presented later after the underlying argument is secured, for now, traditional BC dates continue to be used)


    Cyrus was succeeded by his son Cambyses in 529 BC, Cambyses put his brother Smerdis to death in order to secure the throne. But, upon Cambyses’ death, a pseudo-Smerdis claimed the throne (thought to be a Magian priest named Gomates or Gaumata).

    Darius reigned 36 years (521 – 486 BC) , and was followed by Xerxes, who reigned 21 years (485-465 BC), followed by Artaxerxes Longimanus “the Long Handed”, who reigned for 40 years (464 – 423 BC) . Secular sources say his successors were, Darius II, Artaxerxes II, Artaxerxes III, Arogus, and Darius II.

    Darius = The Doer of Good
    Xerxes = Hero Among Kings
    Artaxerxes = King of Justice
    Ahaseurus = King of Rulers

    It is interesting to note that the inscription of Xerxes at Persepolis reads: “I am Xerxes … [who] made this portal … says Darius the King”. This proves that these Persian kings were called by different names.


    Remember, quoting Anderson, Missler says:

    Possible 4 decrees of Ezra-Nehemiah:

    1. Cyrus, 537 BC (Ezra 1:2-4)

    2. Darius (Ezra 6:1-5,8,12)

    3. Artaxerxes, 458 BC (Ezra 7:11-26)

    4. Artaxerxes, 445 BC (Neh 2:5-8,17,18) only one that says explicitly the city of Jerusalem

    But Ezra 6:14,

    “And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded , and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.”

    cannot be referring to a future Artaxerxes, based on the context here in the life of Darius. The problem with this verse is that the only decree of Artaxerxes mentioned in Ezra to this point is in 4:7-23, which was a decree to stop building the Temple! Further, if the Artaxerxes of Ezra 6:14 is Longimanus, the rest of Ezra says nothing of any decree of his to build the Temple. True, Nehemiah was joined to Ezra in one book, and it could be said this is referring to the rebuilding of the wall, but then, why is it mentioned in 6:14 here?

    The connective, “ and ”, in 6:14 could also be translated “ even ”, or “ to wit ”. For example, Isaiah 17:8 says, “Nor will he look to that which his fingers have made, to wit : the Asherim and incense stands.” Or, Nehemiah 8:13, “And on the second day were gathered together the chief of the fathers of all the people, the priests, and the Levites, unto Ezra the scribe , even [or, to wit] to understand the words of the law.”

    The Bible often uses names meaningfully, such that,

    Ezra 6 would use Darius, to suggest the king was doing good, whereas Ezra 7 speaks of justice, suggesting the use of Artaxerxes.

    As an aside, Jordan also believes that Esther was married to Darius the Great, and that the name, Ahaseurus, means chief of rulers, as he was shown to rule over 127 other lands (Esther 1:1). He does so, believing that Mordecai was active already in the days of Jeshua and Zerubbabel (Ezra 2:2)

    ... to be continued ...

    #28 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7070#post67070

    #31 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7074#post67074


    dp
    Last edited by dpenn; 10-22-2014 at 10:09 AM.

  8. #28
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    dp:

    … continued from posts,

    #5 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7033#post67033

    #25 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7064#post67064

    #26 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7067#post67067

    #27 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7069#post67069

    sylvius,

    An alternate revisionist approach, presented as food for thought (though not necessarily lechem from heaven ).

    btw: I am not a partial preterist, but do glean many things from SOME of their teaching.

    J Jordan, a partial preterist, presents the following in his Biblical Chronology articles, which, even if you reject, I am sure you will find thought provoking:

    Main assertion to prove: Artaxerxes is the same person as Darius.

    (Although hypothesized revisionist dates will be presented later after the underlying argument is secured, for now, traditional BC dates continue to be used)


    Consider Ezra 4:4-7,

    “Then the people of the land weakened the hands of the people of Judah, and troubled them in building, And hired counsellors against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia. And in the reign of Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem. And in the days of Artaxerxes wrote Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of their companions, unto Artaxerxes king of Persia; and the writing of the letter was written in the Syrian tongue, and interpreted in the Syrian tongue.”

    Jordan suggests, that the Ahaseurus of Ezra 4:6 and the Artaxerxes of 4:7 are both Darius, and that the “and” of 4:7, should be translated “to wit”. This means that the phrase, “until the reign of Darius” applies to Darius-Artaxerxes, and the letter sent to Artaxerxes in 4:7 is the same as the one sent to Ahasheurus in 4:6. It also means that Ezra 4:5,6 is in chronological order, with suggested translation:

    To wit: “They hired counselors against them to frustrate their counsel all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius (do-good) king of Persia. To wit, in the reign of Ahaseurus (Chief of Rulers, Darius-Artaxerxes), in the beginning of his reign, they wrote an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem. To wit, in the days of Artaxerxes (King of Justice, Darius), Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of his colleagues, wrote to Artaxerxes, king of Persia; and the text of the letter was written in Aramaic, and translated from Aramaic”.


    But, if the wall was not built until Nehemiah came in the 20th year of Darius, why were letters sent complaining about the wall at the beginning of Darius’ reign. The answer is seen in Ezra 9:9, which says that the Jews had begun building the wall before Nehemiah, and indeed had erected some kind of wall by the time Ezra had arrived in Jerusalem.

    Summarising :

    Jeshua, Zerubbabel and their associates returned to Jerusalem in the first year of Cyrus. They built the altar and began building the Temple (Ezra 3). Soon, however, they encountered opposition, which “discouraged the people of Judah and frightened them from building (Ezra 4:4)”. The people left off working on the Temple and devoted themselves and working on the wall (Haggai 1). God in His mercy raised up adversaries, not having finished the Temple first (Haggai 1). No longer able to work on walls and houses, the people devoted themselves to rebuilding the Temple. This aroused more questions, and another letter was sent to Darius asking about the Temple (Ezra 5). Darius gave permission to rebuild the Temple, which was completed in the 6th year of Darius (Ezra 6). The next year, Ezra arrived, and noted that both the Temple and a rudimentary wall had been completed. This scenario does better justice to texts of Ezra-Nehemiah and Haggai, and does not require that Ezra 4 be yanked out of historical context.

    Daniel’s 70 Weeks :

    Calvin and other older Bible expositors may well have been right to challenge the Ptolemaic chronology and the existing system of BC dates. It is entirely possible that Daniel’s 70 weeks are weeks of real chronological years, beginning with Cyrus’ decree and ending with Jesus’ crucifixion.

    Daniel 9:25,

    “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    The 7 weeks, or 49 years of Daniel’s prophecy in 9:25, extend from the decree of Cyrus until the 34th year of Darius-Artaxerxes, which takes us down to the end of the book of Nehemiah. (7 years for Cyrus, 8 for Cambyses and pseudo-Smerdis, 34 for Darius) . During those 49 years, the city was indeed rebuilt, and in times of distress.

    If the 49 years (7 weeks) prove to be literal years, as we have seen they likely are, then the remaining 63 weeks would also be literal years. In that case, the entire BC system of dating is off, and a great deal of revisionist labour lies before us.

    … to be continued …

    #31 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7074#post67074

    dp
    Last edited by dpenn; 10-22-2014 at 10:07 AM.

  9. #29
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    dp:

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    It is not "clear teaching of scripture". The death of Jesus around the year 30 and the destruction of the Temple in the year 70 are not predicted, nor prophesied, by Daniel.
    sylvius, my earlier posts show how the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Temple, and the walls, literally occurred in 49 years (7 weeks). The implication of this being, the remaining 63 weeks should be considered as literal years also.

    Sorry if this is a bit of reading, but it takes a time and effort to build the case.

    I now plan on at least suggesting where the BC dates go astray.

    ... to be continued ...

    dp
    Last edited by dpenn; 10-01-2014 at 10:28 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpenn View Post



    [COLOR="#FF0000"][B]The 7 weeks, or 49 years of Daniel’s prophecy in 9:25, extend from the decree of Cyrus until the 34th year of Darius-Artaxerxes
    No, they do extend from the going forth of the word at the beginning of Daniels supplications (v.23)

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