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Thread: Daniel 9:23-27

  1. #1
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    Daniel 9:23-27

    dp:

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Daniel didn't prophecy it, it 's just read into it by the Preterists.
    sylvius, you can spin it any way you want, Daniel did prophesy it.

    Daniel 9:24-27,

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

    You know, there was an evil political leader in Canada, named Colin Thatcher, who had his wife murdered, and his famous line through his court hearings, was "deny, deny, deny". But truth surfaced and he was eventually found guilty, and sentenced to life in prison. The moral of this story is that denial does not necessitate truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpenn View Post
    dp:



    sylvius, you can spin it any way you want, Daniel did prophesy it.

    Daniel 9:24-27,

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
    .
    There is a break between the "seven weeks" and the "threescore and two weeks" -- the first messiah (anointed one) coming after seven weeks is King Cyrus; the second messiah is the High Priest Onias III.
    Last edited by sylvius; 09-29-2014 at 12:14 PM.

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    dp:

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    There is a break between the "seven weeks" and the "threescore and two weeks" -- the first messiah (anointed one) coming after seven weeks is King Cyrus; the second messiah is the High Priest Onias III.
    sylvius, you have tried to promote this storyline before, but Daniel divides up the 70 weeks like this to separate out the initial 49 years (7 weeks of years) for the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the Temple. You can split hairs on this, but if you are a student of history, you know that this is relative. And I think it is exact (my bias). Then the next 62 weeks take us up to the last week, where the Messiah (Jesus) is cut off, taking us into the middle of the 70th week. Then the people of the prince that shall come (Roman), shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, which occurred in 70 AD. Any other attempt to spin this is a Talmudic version of "deny, deny, deny".

    I have included JUST A FEW OT prophecies fulfilled in Jesus the Christ:

    His birth:

    Gen 49:10,

    "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be."

    Micah 5:2,

    "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

    Matthew 2:1

    "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,"

    He would be preceded by a messenger:

    Isaiah 40:3,

    "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."

    Matthew 3:1-2,

    "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

    He would enter Jerusalem on a colt:

    Zechariah 9:9,

    "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."

    Lk 19:35-38,

    "And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon. And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way. And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest."

    He would be betrayed by a friend:

    Psalm 41:9; 55:12-14,

    "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me ... For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance. We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company."

    Matthew 26:14-16,

    "Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests, And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him."

    dp
    Last edited by dpenn; 09-29-2014 at 02:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpenn View Post
    dp:



    sylvius, you have tried to promote this storyline before, but Daniel divides up the 70 weeks like this to separate out the initial 49 years (7 weeks of years) for the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the Temple. You can split hairs on this, but if you are a student of history, you know that this is relative. And I think it is exact (my bias). Then the next 62 weeks take us up to the last week, where the Messiah (Jesus) is cut off, taking us into the middle of the 70th week. Then the people of the prince that shall come (Roman), shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, which occurred in 70 AD. Any other attempt to spin this is a Talmudic version of "deny, deny, deny".
    Daniel 9:23 reads:

    In the beginning of your supplications, a word came forth, and I have come to tell it, for you have desirable qualities; now contemplate the word and understand the vision.


    a word came forth = "yatsa davar"

    Daniel 9:25,
    And you shall know and understand that from the coming forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times.

    from the coming forth of the word = "min motsa davar"


    So seemingly v. 23 and v. 25 speak about the same "word" (KJV has "commandment").

    The destruction of the Temple took place in the year 586 BCE.

    586 - 490 = 96 BCE, still about 166 years to go until the year 70 CE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Daniel 9:23 reads:

    In the beginning of your supplications, a word came forth, and I have come to tell it, for you have desirable qualities; now contemplate the word and understand the vision.


    a word came forth = "yatsa davar"

    Daniel 9:25,
    And you shall know and understand that from the coming forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times.

    from the coming forth of the word = "min motsa davar"


    So seemingly v. 23 and v. 25 speak about the same "word" (KJV has "commandment").

    The destruction of the Temple took place in the year 586 BCE.

    586 - 490 = 96 BCE, still about 166 years to go until the year 70 CE.
    sylvius, based on the accepted Ptolemaic dates for the reign of the Persian kings, you would be correct (I need to change that, correct to a point, as I don't accept your start date). But there is good reason to doubt this Ptolemaic list of Persian kings. Some have tried to get around this by saying that it is not Cyrus' decree that is spoken of, which only deals with the rebuilding of the Temple, not Jerusalem. Those who hold to this view place a secondary decree of Artaxerxes as the fulfillment of this, because it speaks of the rebuilding of Jerusalem. However, as difficult as this might be to harmonize these dates, I am inclined to believe that the decree refers to Cyrus' decree.

    Now, if you were to take 536 BC as the date of this decree, then 536 - 490 = 46 BC. This may be close enough to about 30-32 AD, the probable year of Jesus' crucifixion, to be an actual fulfillment without being exact to the year. But I am convinced that it is meant to be an exact prophecy (future post, alternate approach ... be patient, it will come).

    But, let's begin with the Standard Approach to Daniel's 69 weeks

    Based on the book "The Coming Prince", Sir Robert Anderson, Head of Scotland Yard, 1894, and gleaned from Chuck Missler's teaching on the book of Daniel:

    Possible 4 decrees of Ezra-Nehemiah:

    1. Cyrus, 537 BC (Ezra 1:2-4)

    2. Darius (Ezra 6:1-5,8,12)

    3. Artaxerxes, 458 BC (Ezra 7:11-26)

    4. Artaxerxes, 445 BC (Neh 2:5-8,17,18) only one that says explicitly the city of Jerusalem


    Daniel 9:25

    "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

    By our calendar, the decree of Artaxerxes Longimanus was given Mar 14, 445 BC.

    He noted that the Bible always deals in 360 day years in prophecy (Gen 7:24; 8:3,4; Dan 9:27; 12:6; Rev 11:2,3; 13:5).

    And Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem occurred just before Passover, Zechariah 9:9,

    "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout , O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."

    quoted in Luke 19:37-38,

    "And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest."

    Christ's ministry began in fall 28 AD.
    - Tiberias appointed: 14 AD
    - Augustus died August 19, 14 AD
    - Jesus began His public ministry within the 15th year of Tiberias (Luke 3:1)
    4th Passover: April 6, 32 AD (Sir Robert Anderson, 1894)
    (other chronologies presume a Friday crucifixion, but Passover this year was not on a Friday, but Wednesday)

    69 * 7 * 360 = 173,880 days

    And the LXX was translated into Greek more than 2 centuries before Christ, as per Dead Sea Scrolls.

    445 BC - 32 AD = 173,740
    Mar 14 - Apr 6 = ..........24
    Leap Years..................116
    -------------------------------
    ............................173,880 days

    If this is true, Gabriel's margin of error was 0 days.


    continued on posts ...

    #25 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7064#post67064

    #26 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7067#post67067

    #27 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7069#post67069

    #28 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7070#post67070

    #31 - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7074#post67074

    dp
    Last edited by dpenn; 10-22-2014 at 10:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpenn View Post
    sylvius, based on the accepted Ptolemaic dates for the reign of the Persian kings, you would be correct (I need to change that, correct to a point, as I don't accept your start date). But there is good reason to doubt this Ptolemaic list of Persian kings. Some have tried to get around this by saying that it is not Cyrus' decree that is spoken of, which only deals with the rebuilding of the Temple, not Jerusalem. Those who hold to this view place a secondary decree of Artaxerxes as the fulfillment of this, because it speaks of the rebuilding of Jerusalem. However, as difficult as this might be to harmonize these dates, I am inclined to believe that the decree refers to Cyrus' decree.

    Now, if you were to take 536 BC as the date of this decree, then 536 - 490 = 46 BC. This may be close enough to about 30-32 AD, the probable year of Jesus' crucifixion, to be an actual fulfillment without being exact to the year. But I am convinced that it is meant to be an exact prophecy (future post, alternate approach ... be patient, it will come).

    But, let's begin with the Standard Approach to Daniel's 69 weeks

    Based on the book "The Coming Prince", Sir Robert Anderson, Head of Scotland Yard, 1894, and gleaned from Chuck Missler's teaching on the book of Daniel:

    Possible 4 decrees of Ezra-Nehemiah:

    1. Cyrus, 537 BC (Ezra 1:2-4)

    2. Darius (Ezra 6:1-5,8,12)

    3. Artaxerxes, 458 BC (Ezra 7:11-26)

    4. Artaxerxes, 445 BC (Neh 2:5-8,17,18) only one that says explicitly the city of Jerusalem


    Daniel 9:25

    "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

    By our calendar, the decree of Artaxerxes Longimanus was given Mar 14, 445 BC.

    He noted that the Bible always deals in 360 day years in prophecy (Gen 7:24; 8:3,4; Dan 9:27; 12:6; Rev 11:2,3; 13:5).

    And Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem occurred just before Passover, Zechariah 9:9,

    "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout , O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."

    quoted in Luke 19:37-38,

    "And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest."

    Christ's ministry began in fall 28 AD.
    - Tiberias appointed: 14 AD
    - Augustus died August 19, 14 AD
    - Jesus began His public ministry within the 15th year of Tiberias (Luke 3:1)
    4th Passover: April 6, 32 AD (Sir Robert Anderson, 1894)
    (other chronologies presume a Friday crucifixion, but Passover this year was not on a Friday, but Wednesday)

    69 * 7 * 360 = 173,880 days

    And the LXX was translated into Greek more than 2 centuries before Christ, as per Dead Sea Scrolls.

    445 BC - 32 AD = 173,740
    Mar 14 - Apr 6 = ..........24
    Leap Years..................116
    -------------------------------
    ............................173,880 days

    If this is true, Gabriel's margin of error was 0 days.

    dp

    It's not a "decree", but a "word", Hebrew "davar", that's also mentioned in v.23.

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    The "seventy weeks [of years]" seem to be an extension of the"seventy years" of Jeremiah 29:10.

    Daniel 9:2, In the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, contemplated the calculations, the number of the years that the word of the Lord had come to Jeremiah the prophet, since the destruction of Jerusalem seventy years.

    " Seventy", not to be taken as literal 70 years.

    "Seventy" standing for "multitude" --

    There are also mentioned 70 nations , where "seventy"has to be understood as "all the nations in the world ".

    And Lamech shall be avenged "seventy and seven" times, or "seventy times seven times".

    Also the number 7 has not to be taken as literal "seven".

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    dp:

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    The "seventy weeks [of years]" seem to be an extension of the"seventy years" of Jeremiah 29:10.

    Daniel 9:2, In the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, contemplated the calculations, the number of the years that the word of the Lord had come to Jeremiah the prophet, since the destruction of Jerusalem seventy years.

    " Seventy", not to be taken as literal 70 years.

    "Seventy" standing for "multitude" --

    There are also mentioned 70 nations , where "seventy"has to be understood as "all the nations in the world ".

    And Lamech shall be avenged "seventy and seven" times, or "seventy times seven times".

    Also the number 7 has not to be taken as literal "seven".
    sylvius, yes, there is a two-fold prophecy. Daniel first addresses Jeremiah's 70 years of exile in Babylon, but then he obviously applies it to the future of Israel and the Jews.

    dp

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpenn View Post
    dp:



    sylvius, yes, there is a two-fold prophecy. Daniel first addresses Jeremiah's 70 years of exile in Babylon, but then he obviously applies it to the future of Israel and the Jews.

    dp
    From Matthew 18:22 might be clear that also the gospelwriters didn't take the seventy weeks of years as literal 490 years.

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    dp:

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    From Matthew 18:22 might be clear that also the gospelwriters didn't take the seventy weeks of years as literal 490 years.
    sylvius, your desperation at denying Daniel's clear prophecy is becoming obvious, as you are grasping at almost anything to avoid the truth. Let's just look at Matthew 18:21-22,

    "Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."

    This is a totally different context, so deserves an entirely different interpretation. But having said that, it is obvious that there are multiple occurrences of this 70 * 7 = 490.

    Once again, I will glean a few gems from Chuck Missler's video series on Daniel (even if I disagree with him in his Zionistic Dispensationalism, I will always give credit where credit is due):

    "Time, Times, and 1/2 Time:"

    "Times" = dual, later lost in Aramaic
    1 + 2 + 1/2 = 3 1/2 (Dan 7:25; 12:7; Rev 12:4)

    3 1/2 years (Dan 9:27; 12:7)

    42 months (Rev 11:2; 13:5)

    1260 days (Rev 11:3; Dan 12:6)

    1/2 "week" (Dan 9:27)

    Missler using Larkin's work on 490:

    Abraham to the Exodus:

    Promise Gen 12:4 = 75 years, Gal 3:17 430
    75+430=505

    Ishmael Gen 16:16; 21:5 = 15

    505 - 15 = 490 years

    Exodus to the Temple:

    Begun 1 Kings 6-8 = 594 (but 1 Kings 6:1 says this was 480 years ... anything for a 490?)
    Completed ` Kings 6:38 =7
    594+7=601

    Servitudes in Judges
    Mesopotamia 3:8 = 8
    Moabites 3:12-14 = 18
    Canaanites 4:2,3 = 20
    Midianites 6:1 = 7
    Ammonites 10:7,8 = 18
    Philistines 13:1 = 40
    8+18+20+7+18+40=111
    601-111=490

    (notice how Missler leaves out the 3 years usurpation of Abimilech Judges 9:1,2 which is part of 594. 111+3+480=594)

    The Temple to the Edict of Artaxerxes:

    1 Kings 8:1-66 = 1005 BC (more likely 967 BC to 980 BC ... another questionable 490?)
    Nehemiah 2:1 = 445 BC
    1005-445=560

    Babylonian Captivity = 70
    560-70=490

    Artaxerxes to the 2nd Coming of Christ:

    Artaxerxes to the 1st Advent of Christ
    "The 69 weeks" 69*7 = 483 (add 3 1/2 years of Jesus ministry ... another cooked 490?)

    [Church Interval] = ?

    The "70th week" = 7 (3 1/2 years, 1260 days, or 42 months in Revelation ... 1/2 week?)
    483+7=490

    (I can't see how Missler can subtract the Church Age from Israel like this, as it is the New Covenant, including both Jews and Gentiles. This is one of the main reasons I reject much of Missler's eschatology.)



    It appears there is quite a bit of cooking the years here, but it is rather fascinating just the same, and you can't dismiss it all. You will also notice that Missler interprets Daniel's 70th week much differently than I would ... but for your enjoyment! Missler suggests that this is how often God is offering forgiveness to Israel, over the course of history.

    dp
    Last edited by dpenn; 10-03-2014 at 06:59 PM.

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