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  1. #121
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    Hey Richard, for starters, thanks for setting me up for a quadruple nest, it almost seems fractal like:

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    OK - does that mean that you padded your "amazing coincidences" with numbers that you don't believe prove anything? That's pretty typical of numerologists. It makes all their claims suspect. Especially since you didn't answer my main questions (highlighted red above).
    Quote Originally Posted by dpenn
    Richard, there is a bit more going on here than just Pope Francis I being 76 years old, but to answer your question, I think they are so controlling in all of this, probably the least significant of this all would be his age of 76, if in fact he actually is 76.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    What do you think that implies? Are you suggesting that they chose him because he was 76 years old? Or are you suggesting that they rigged his birth so he would be 76 years old at the time they elected him? By what method do you discern between design and random coincidence? I see no reason to believe that numerology proves anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by dpenn
    "White smoke at 7:06 pm: 7+6=13; he is 76 years old: 7+6=13; he was elected on the calendar date: 3/13/13 ... 2 13's of its own; 3/13/2013 also yields 3+1+3+2+1+3=13; he was announced at precisely 8:13 pm Vatican time, or in military and European time, 20:13". 20:13 yields interesting 33.
    I suspect either one of your suggestions for "chosen" or "rigged" could be possible, just as cooking the books for the prophesy of the final pope could be just as engineered. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the intelligence centres of the Vatican, including especially the Jesuits, could pull something like this off.

    Btw, Bernard of Clairvaux, the famous monk that harboured Malachy, and even wrote a biography about him, was also famous for his oversight of the Knights Templar (thus the Masons), at the time of the early Crusades, not to mention, living close to the time of Francis of Assissi, Pope Francis' namesake.

    And I am sorry, I just don't have the mathematical expertise to derive an algorithm for such coincidences, but that shouldn't negate common sense of observation. Not to mention, it is very challenging to determine what great intellects are doing in secret, let alone mind-read their plans. There is One Who sits enthroned in heaven, Who knows all things, as Daniel acknowledged. I guess if He ever found it necessary for me to know their deeper secrets, I would receive adequate revelation, but for now, my ignorance isn't so bliss.

    dp

  2. #122
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    Debunking the Logos Holograph

    I have successfully debunked the Bible Wheel and the Isaiah Bible Correlation in various posts in this thread. I showed in both cases that my claims were marred by a consisten selection bias (aka cherry picking) which happened because I did not look at all the data, or rather, I IGNORED data that did not fit the patterns I was trying to "prove."

    I now have applied the same criterion to the Logos Holograph which I represented as follows:



    In the article, I also noted that the value of "logos theou" (God's Word) = 857 which coincides with "zon" (living, the first word in the holograph). What I didn't mention is that this phrase is never used in the New Testament. I felt justified in using it because it is "legitimate Greek" but by allowing myself to play with add/removing articles I created more opportunities for MISSES but that didn't bother me because I wasn't looking at all the data.

    Here then is "all the data." It includes a textual variant - the red "te" - which is found in the Majority Text (the Byzantine textform that underlies the TR and the KJV). It is missing from the modern critical Greek NT that I used when I "discovered" this holograph. If I had used the Majority Text I never would have thought much of anything was going on in this text because the missing "te" destroys most of the pattern based on the number 373.

    The "hits" that I highlighted in the holograph are marked with yellow. There are 14 out of 92 possibilities, which is 15%. I see no reason to think that represents anything but meaningless coincidence because there is no consistent pattern. There were five different primes involved in the 14 hits, namely, 857, 443, 73, 373, and 137 and most of them only got a single "match" and there are hundreds of primes in the table below. A statistical analysis therefore shows nothing of any significance.

    The red highlight is an interesting example of a "hit" that is found only if we use the Majority text (which would destroy other hits).

    value factors ζων γαρ ο λογος του θεου και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    857 104 70 373 770 484 31 371 31 1885 585 332 803 744 31 929 711 865 1908 305 31 1146 991 305 31 1325 31 730 1567 31 1035 336
    857 prime ζων
    1697 prime ο λογος του θεου
    1627 prime
    λογος του θεου
    857 prime
    λογος θεου
    443 prime ο λογος
    2658 6x443 ζων γαρ ο λογος του θεου
    1228 4x307 ζων
    ενεργης
    1259 prime ζων
    και ενεργης
    3060 180x17 ζων γαρ ο λογος του θεου και ενεργης
    7440 240x31 ζων γαρ ο λογος του θεου και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον
    13366 82x163 ζων γαρ ο λογος του θεου και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος
    13061 37x353 ζων γαρ ο λογος του θεου και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος
    16018 2x8009 ζων γαρ ο λογος του θεου και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    15713 19x827 ζων γαρ ο λογος του θεου και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    16779 357x47 ζων γαρ ο λογος του θεου και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος
    16474 2x8237 ζων γαρ ο λογος του θεου και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος
    19748 4x4937 ζων γαρ ο λογος του θεου και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    19443 3x6481 ζων γαρ ο λογος του θεου και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    402 6x67
    και ενεργης
    371 7x53
    ενεργης
    4782 6x797
    και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον
    4751 prime
    ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον
    5742 198x29
    και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος
    5711 prime
    ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος
    10708 4x2677
    και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος
    10403 101x103
    και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος
    10677 3x3559
    ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος
    10372 4x2593
    ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος
    13360 80x167
    και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    13055 35x373
    και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    13329 9x1481
    ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    13024 352x37
    ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    14121 27x523
    και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος
    13816 88x157
    και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος
    14090 10x1409
    ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος
    13785 15x919
    ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος
    17090 10x1709
    και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    16785 45x373
    και ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    17059 7x2437
    ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    16754 2x8377
    ενεργης και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    1916 4x479
    και τομωτερος
    1885 65x29
    τομωτερος
    4380 60x73
    και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον
    4349 prime
    τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον
    5340 60x89
    και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος
    5309 prime
    τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος
    10306 2x5153
    και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος
    10001 73x137
    και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος
    10275 75x137
    τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος
    9970 10x997 τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος
    12958 418x31 και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    12653 prime και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    12927 93x139 τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    12622 2x6311 τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    13719 51x269 και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος
    13688 232x59 τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος
    13383 9x1487 τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος
    16688 112x149 και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    16383 129x127 και τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    16657 prime τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    16352 224x73 τομωτερος υπερ πασαν μαχαιραν διστομον και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    960 192x5 και διικνουμενος
    929 prime διικνουμενος
    5926 2x2963 και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος
    5621 77x73 και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος
    8578 2x4289 και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    8273 prime και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    8547 231x37 διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    8242 26x317 διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    9339 33x283 και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος
    9034 2x4517 και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος
    9308 52x179
    διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος
    9003 3x3001
    διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος
    12308 68x181
    και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    12003 3x4001
    και διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    12277 prime
    διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    11972 164x73
    διικνουμενος αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    4966 26x191
    αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος
    4661 59x79
    αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος
    7618 26x293
    αχρι μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    7313 71x103
    αχρι μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    4255 115x37
    μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος
    3950 50x79
    μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος
    6907 prime
    μερισμου ψυχης τε και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    6602 2x3301
    μερισμου ψυχης και πνευματος αρμων τε και μυελων
    2652 156x17 αρμων τε και μυελων
    761 prime και κριτικος
    730 10x73 κριτικος
    3730 10x373 και κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    3699 27x137 κριτικος ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    2969 prime ενθυμησεων και εννοιων καρδιας
    2633 prime ενθυμησεων και εννοιων
    336 48x7 καρδιας

    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #123
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    The Bible Wheel Debunked!

    I have completed my first blog post debunking the Bible Wheel. It's called Debunking Myself: What A Long Strange Trip It's Been.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    I have completed my first blog post debunking the Bible Wheel. It's called Debunking Myself: What A Long Strange Trip It's Been.


    Hi Richard:

    I hope you are doing well... I wonder, are you going to continue to sell your book now that you have concluded it is bunk? I would like to buy a few off of you before you destroy them all...

    I think you must let the world see your journey for what it is and eventhough you think you have found a better place than what all your study gave you - you should keep going... Looking for faith! Real genuine faith. Faith that can bend the reality of all realities. Faith that can merge the seen with the unseen... the known with the unknown!


    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Mystykal

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Richard:

    I hope you are doing well... I wonder, are you going to continue to sell your book now that you have concluded it is bunk? I would like to buy a few off of you before you destroy them all...
    Good morning Mystykal,

    No, I don't intend to continue selling the book. But it is now in the world and has a life of its own. The PDF version is available on various sites, so there's no way for me to delete it from the world. It's like the poem from Omar Khayyam:

    The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
    Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
    Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
    Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it

    I've put a notice on the banner of my old site saying the Bible Wheel has been debunked, and I will be replacing the ads for the book with a "DEBUNKED" logo of some sort. I've been waiting until I could finish the article debunking it. It took a long time to write.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    I think you must let the world see your journey for what it is and even though you think you have found a better place than what all your study gave you - you should keep going... Looking for faith! Real genuine faith. Faith that can bend the reality of all realities. Faith that can merge the seen with the unseen... the known with the unknown!
    I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I think it is quite delusional. Please take no offense, as none is intended. When I say "delusional" I mean it in the same way as when I say I was deluded about the Bible Wheel. You are simply believing things for which you have no evidence.

    Why should anyone believe things for which there is no evidence?

    How do you distinguish between true and false beliefs when there is no evidence?

    The Amazing Randi continues to offer a million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate ANY supernatural ability.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    I have completed my first blog post debunking the Bible Wheel. It's called Debunking Myself: What A Long Strange Trip It's Been.
    Hello Richard
    What would have been your stock answer a year or so ago, before you began to deconstruct your beliefs, when some challenged you about the Bible Wheel and if they had suggested then that you were showing selection bias?


    David

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Richard
    What would have been your stock answer a year or so ago, before you began to deconstruct your beliefs, when some challenged you about the Bible Wheel and if they had suggested then that you were showing selection bias?


    David
    Excellent question!

    I would have presented the best cherry picked "evidence" I could find. Of course, that would have been absurd, since you can't disprove selection bias by presenting more selectively chosen facts! The proper answer would be to prove that I was actually dealing with ALL THE DATA. But I couldn't do that, because I wasn't actually dealing with all the data. In other words, I really was cherry picking, and there is no way I could have refuted that charge last year or at any time in my "career" of proclaiming the Bible Wheel.

    It is very curious that you bring this up right now because I just finished an article on my blog which included an imaginary conversation between "Me now" and "Me then" when I was a believer. The article is called Battle of the Bible Wheels: Catholic vs. Protestant. As it turns out, the 72 books of the Catholic Bible make a Bible Wheel using the 24 letters of the Greek alphabet. Here's what I just wrote at the end of my blog post (after exposing other errors I had made):

    The Battle of the Bible Wheels

    There is yet another refutation of my Bible Wheel Challenge that is perhaps the most compelling of all, since a picture is, as they say, worth a thousand words. For years, I believed that the Bible Wheel was proof of the Protestant Canon, as opposed to that of the Roman Catholic Church. I just “knew” that the deuterocanonical books would “ruin the pattern.” You couldn’t even make a Bible Wheel since there were too many books! Or so I thought.

    I never actually analysed the data at all.
    Much to my surprise, it is very easy to make a Roman Catholic Bible Wheel. I simply followed the order of books as listed in the Vulgate (and the Douay-Rheims version), and followed the tradition of counting Jeremiah and Lamentations as one to give a total of 72 books. These books can then be displayed on a wheel of 24 spokes, corresponding to the 24 Greek letters. Thus, the Catholics can claim their Bible is “sealed from Alpha to Omega” just as I claimed that that Protestant canon was “sealed from Aleph to Tav.” Only their claim has a much better ring to it, given that the Alpha and Omega are descriptions of the divine found within the text itself and are ubiquitous in ancient Christian art and literature as seen, for example, in the Chi Rho I placed in the center:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I now have a foil against which to test my claims about the Bible Wheel. How would I have responded when I was a believer? To answer this, I’ll create a dialog between “Me now” and “Me then.” Note: PBW = Protestant Bible Wheel and CBW = Catholic Bible Wheel.

    Me now: The PBW is meaningless. I can create the same kind of pattern with the Catholic Bible and the Greek alphabet.

    Me then: Yeah, but the CBW doesn’t have a Canon Wheel.

    Me now: Score one for the PBW. But the PBW doesn’t match the words of the Bible which speak explicitly of the Alpha and Omega which also have played a very important role in Christian art and literature. And the 24 spokes of the CBW correspond to very significant uses of the numbers 24 and 24/2 = 12 in the Bible, like the 24 elders around the thrown of God and the 144,000 = 24 x 6,000, etc. The number 22 doesn’t play any role in the symbolic numbers of the Bible as far as I know.

    Me then: Score one for the CBW. But the number 22 does play an important role in the alphabetic verses which follow the pattern of the 22 letters. There are no alphabetic verses designed upon the Greek alphabet, so you can’t have any alphabetic KeyLinks like I have found in the PBW.

    Me now: KeyLinks? There’s been a development in that area. Your claims relating to the Alphabetic KeyLinks collapsed like a house of cards the moment I examined them objectively. I proved that in a series of five posts on our forum (here, here, here, here, and here).

    Me then: Oh my. That’s embarrassing. Let’s move on to another question.

    Me now: OK. What’s the best spoke on your Bible Wheel?

    Me then: The first spoke! It’s totally amazing! It consists of Genesis, Isaiah, and Romans, which are the first books of the Law, the Prophets, and the New Testament Epistles! And there is a strong theme of “creation” that unites them. It’s the best spoke on the PBW. The evidence is very strong.

    Me now: I agree that’s pretty impressive. But not nearly as impressive as the first spoke of the CBW which consists of Genesis, Wisdom of Solomon, and the Gospel of John. Take a look at these correlations:
    • Genesis: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
    • Wisdom: O God of my fathers, and Lord of mercy, who hast made all things with thy word, And ordained man through thy wisdom, that he should have dominion over the creatures which thou hast made,
    • John: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Look at that! The Wisdom of Solomon explicitly refers to the Logos by whom all things were made. It coheres perfectly with Genesis and John. I could go on …

    Me then: No need. I see your point. There is no limit to the “connections” that can be found no matter how the books are arranged, and more importantly, there is no way to judge between the two Bible Wheels. I know I would have been very impressed by the Catholic Bible Wheel if I were a Catholic looking for “patterns” that proved divine inspiration. And that’s nothing confirmation bias. Thanks for helping me see the error of my ways. I think I’ll be going now. Bye bye.


    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  8. #128
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    Hello Richard

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post

    [/FONT][/COLOR]Me then: No need. I see your point. There is no limit to the “connections” that can be found no matter how the books are arranged, and more importantly, there is no way to judge between the two Bible Wheels. I know I would have been very impressed by the Catholic Bible Wheel if I were a Catholic looking for “patterns” that proved divine inspiration. And that’s nothing confirmation bias. Thanks for helping me see the error of my ways. I think I’ll be going now. Bye bye.
    Whilst I could see some correlation in the a few of the spokes of the Bible Wheel, the first thing I noticed that many spokes had no apparent correlation. I was not happy that the BW was used to support the Trinity. Maybe if had had conversations with you, I can imagine you replying with the words; "that is absurd" or "that is fallacious". I do not think you would readily have given in to criticism.

    I think this goes to show, how easily we can delude ourselves and others. What of those who were easily led by your Bible Wheel and thinking that it was supporting their beliefs? That to me is; the "blind leading the blind".

    We cannot blame God for us deluding ourselves about what God has revealed to us. Why blame God, or a fictitious divine being (Satan) for spreading lies and delusion, when we do a good job ourselves?

    All the best
    David

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Whilst I could see some correlation in the a few of the spokes of the Bible Wheel, the first thing I noticed that many spokes had no apparent correlation.
    I agree that some spokes had much better correlations than others. But you and I never discussed it, so it doesn't really matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I was not happy that the BW was used to support the Trinity.
    I'm not sure what you are talking about. The only thing I said concerning the Trinity and the Bible Wheel was that there were some nice correlations between the tri-radiant structure of the Canon Wheel and ancient trinitarian iconography. Do you remember any specific arguments I made that you were not "happy" with?

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Maybe if had had conversations with you, I can imagine you replying with the words; "that is absurd" or "that is fallacious". I do not think you would readily have given in to criticism.
    That would depend on the quality of your criticism of course. I don't recall ever saying something was "absurd" without giving good reason for my judgment. And if I erred, all you would have had to do is show the error.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I think this goes to show, how easily we can delude ourselves and others.
    I couldn't agree more. But your comment seems quite ironic since you don't recognize that your belief in the Bible is delusional.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    What of those who were easily led by your Bible Wheel and thinking that it was supporting their beliefs? That to me is; the "blind leading the blind".
    Folks who were "easily led by the Bible Wheel" would be responsible for their own delusion, just as I was for mine. If they had not begun with a delusional belief in the Bible, they never would have been deluded by the Bible Wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    We cannot blame God for us deluding ourselves about what God has revealed to us. Why blame God, or a fictitious divine being (Satan) for spreading lies and delusion, when we do a good job ourselves?
    If there is a God who inspired the Bible, then he is responsible for the confusion caused by his extremely confused, ambiguous, and incoherent book.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #130
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    Hard Copy Please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Good morning Mystykal,

    No, I don't intend to continue selling the book. But it is now in the world and has a life of its own. The PDF version is available on various sites, so there's no way for me to delete it from the world. It's like the poem from Omar Khayyam:

    The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
    Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
    Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
    Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it

    I've put a notice on the banner of my old site saying the Bible Wheel has been debunked, and I will be replacing the ads for the book with a "DEBUNKED" logo of some sort. I've been waiting until I could finish the article debunking it. It took a long time to write.


    I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I think it is quite delusional. Please take no offense, as none is intended. When I say "delusional" I mean it in the same way as when I say I was deluded about the Bible Wheel. You are simply believing things for which you have no evidence.

    Why should anyone believe things for which there is no evidence?

    How do you distinguish between true and false beliefs when there is no evidence?

    The Amazing Randi continues to offer a million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate ANY supernatural ability.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    Hi Richard:

    I take no offense! I realize that it is hard to let go of notions which on the surface appear to be genuine but in the end are empty...

    I would really like a hard copy of your book, I find it quite facinating and really well written. I really hope you will keep a few on hand just as a way to let those who want to have a hard copy to be able to buy...

    As to Randi I already answered that! He is not allowing those who can do such things to be a part of his search... Nothing is at it appears.

    Why should anyone believe things for which there is no evidence?
    Faith IS the evidence or the power behind the changes which we seek. The reason faith is no longer understood by most people is that they use the word as a noun instead of a verb. The evidence is in the changes which take place when faith is present v/s when it is not. The no change milk jug results you refer to are because faith is NOT present in those prayers.... Delusional thinking? Well time will tell.

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Mystykal

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