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  1. #1
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    People On Trial: Are People's Laws Moral?

    Before we can accuse God, we should examine ourselves first, are we people moral? I don' t think anyone here is moral. As such how dare are we to accuse God as immoral? It is hypocrisy to accuse God and others of immorality when we ourselves are immoral?

    Matthew 7:3-5
    Why, then, do you look at the speck in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the log in your own eye?
    How dare you say to your brother, ‘Please, let me take that speck out of your eye,’ when you have a log in your own eye?
    You hypocrite! First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able to see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.


    There are some people in this forum who thinks that homosexuality is ok as it is individual's freedom of right to do what they think is ok? What say you all? Yes, it is individual's freedom of choice but do we encourage that or be indifferent to the perversion? If we are homosexuals ourselves then there is nothing much I can say or we be hypocrites. If we allow one perversion, will we eventually allow all? Will we then go back into the era of Sodom and Gomorrah whereby sexual perversions of all sorts are rife?...And the moment you enter these towns....well.... men and women will be after your ass.....and every day!


    Gd Bless.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  2. #2
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    The whole idea of finite beings placing God on trial for his *actions* is utter lunacy to begin with. ALL of God's *actions* would NECESSARILY be executed while taking ALL the hidden variables into account. So it logically follows that no finite being can ever judge the moral *actions* of God. And we don't determine the goodness of God BASED on his *actions*. Rather, we determine his goodness based on his NATURE, which is reflected in his actions *WHEN* all the hidden variables are factored in. But the thing that really bugs me is this ...

    Richard and Rose know that in order for them to rant and rave about biblical morality, there has to be an OBJECTIVE standard of morality. My point is that they can't have that under nontheism. Morality is NECESSARILY subjective under nontheism. That's why *ALL* moral nihilists are nontheists ...

    Rose will argue that it is OBJECTIVELY wrong to murder someone because all humans are self-aware beings. What kind of an argument is that??? Seriously. The only way you can claim there is any universal and timeless moral truth is if there is a TRANSCENDENT source of that moral truth. How the hell do you get from humans are self-aware beings to the assertion that such beings are OBJECTIVELY and ONTOLOGICALLY more valuable than snails??? Why is that OBJECTIVELY superior than arguing it is morally better to kill humans because they are the number one polluters of the biosphere??? She won't answer that because she CAN'T. She knows she is SUBJECTIVELY assigning a special status for humans ...

    Richard argues that morality is OBJECTIVE because it is based on defined principles of justice. I don't have the slightest doubt in my mind that Richard is INTENTIONALLY being deceptive here. Why? BECAUSE PEOPLE *DISAGREE* ON WHAT IS JUST!!! In other words, ALL actions are SUBJECTIVELY classified as just or unjust. And not only that, even if the huge majority of humans agreed that justice should be defined as x, that's STILL a SUBJECTIVE interpretation of what should be deemed as just! So not only is Richard and Rose ARBITRARILY assigning a special ontological status to humans, but to human reasoning as well ...

    Let's say there was an advanced civilization that was able to create entire galaxies and they viewed humans as primitive ants. Under Richard's view, why would it be OBJECTIVELY wrong for them to get rid of us??? ...

    And the whole thing about assigning OBJECTIVE value to self-aware beings is highly problematic under nontheism. That would mean people with mental handicaps are BY DEFINITION less valuable than people who have a more acute sense of awareness.

    Remember, if OBJECTIVE morality is inconsistent with nontheism, then Richard and Rose are essentially out of a job. Their bread and butter is to rant and rave about biblical morality. But if morality is ultimately subjective under nontheism, then all moral views would simply be a matter of personal taste.


    BINI aka The Mystic Meanie
    Last edited by Gambini; 06-10-2014 at 01:23 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Before we can accuse God, we should examine ourselves first, are we people moral? I don' t think anyone here is moral. As such how dare are we to accuse God as immoral? It is hypocrisy to accuse God and others of immorality when we ourselves are immoral?
    Hello Cheow

    Of course we know people can act in immoral ways! Why do you think that I conclude that the Bible was written by men? Because it is so full of injustice and immorality!! I've only said this like a million times!!

    God is the one who is suppose to be an example of what it means to be righteous and moral, as it is I'm a thousand times more moral than the Biblegod!

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    There are some people in this forum who thinks that homosexuality is ok as it is individual's freedom of right to do what they think is ok? What say you all? Yes, it is individual's freedom of choice but do we encourage that or be indifferent to the perversion? If we are homosexuals ourselves then there is nothing much I can say or we be hypocrites. If we allow one perversion, will we eventually allow all? Will we then go back into the era of Sodom and Gomorrah whereby sexual perversions of all sorts are rife?...And the moment you enter these towns....well.... men and women will be after your ass.....and every day!


    Gd Bless.
    I am one of those people who thinks that we are all entitled to equal human rights to choose whoever we want to have a relationship with. Who are you to say that homosexuality is a perversion? Your mentality is just like the primitive men who wrote the Bible and thought that women were inferior to men, and it was okay to deny them equal human rights. Shame on you.


    Rose
    Last edited by Rose; 06-10-2014 at 04:22 PM.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambini View Post

    Rose will argue that it is OBJECTIVELY wrong to murder someone because all humans are self-aware beings. What kind of an argument is that??? Seriously. The only way you can claim there is any universal and timeless moral truth is if there is a TRANSCENDENT source of that moral truth. How the hell do you get from humans are self-aware beings to the assertion that such beings are OBJECTIVELY and ONTOLOGICALLY more valuable than snails??? Why is that OBJECTIVELY superior than arguing it is morally better to kill humans because they are the number one polluters of the biosphere??? She won't answer that because she CAN'T. She knows she is SUBJECTIVELY assigning a special status for humans ...




    BINI aka The Mystic Meanie
    I don't know why I'm wasting my time, but I will do so for the sake of others who might be led astray by your ranting. The least you could do when presenting someones argument is to state it correctly. It looks like I'm going to have to sit little Bini down like a kindergartener and explain my position to him one more time ... maybe larger font will help?

    Objective fact:

    All people share the quality of being human, as such all people are entitled to equal human rights.

    It really is quite simple, I'm surprised you are having so much difficulty understanding it. I'm not really sure why you are bringing the value of snails into the picture, unless you feel small like a snail.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Cheow

    Of course we know people can act in immoral ways! Why do you think that I conclude that the Bible was written by men? Because it is so full of injustice and immorality!! I've only said this like a million times!!

    God is the one who is suppose to be an example of what it means to be righteous and moral, as it is I'm a thousand times more moral than the Biblegod!



    I am one of those people who thinks that we are all entitled to equal human rights to choose whoever we want to have a relationship with. Who are you to say that homosexuality is a perversion? Your mentality is just like the primitive men who wrote the Bible and thought that women were inferior to men, and it was okay to deny them equal human rights. Shame on you.


    Rose
    There is no such things as equal human rights. It's humanly impossible because of the multi- variables and obstacles, so don't waste your time fighting for equal human rights but rather fight for something more achievable such as more protection for women. A helper does not mean inferior and to rule does not mean to rule but to lead and protect. It has always been the role of men in all culture to protect the womenfolks and children and property. Women has many rights over men and men has many rights over women, they are equal in their individual roles working together mutually towards a common goal.

    God Bless.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    There is no such things as equal human rights. It's humanly impossible because of the multi- variables and obstacles, so don't waste your time fighting for equal human rights but rather fight for something more achievable such as more protection for women.
    Don't be idiotic! Of course there are human rights! It's only closed minded men like yourself who are trapped in the primitive male mindset of biblical thinking that think there aren't. All people share the quality of being human, and thus should be given equal human rights.

    Women don't need men to protect them, they need men to quit abusing them and violating their human rights by trying to dominate and control them! Just stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    A helper does not mean inferior and to rule does not mean to rule but to lead and protect. It has always been the role of men in all culture to protect the womenfolks and children and property. Women has many rights over men and men has many rights over women, they are equal in their individual roles working together mutually towards a common goal.

    God Bless.
    Marriage partners should be helpers to each other that is what a true relationship is all about. The Bible is based on the primitive mindset of Patriarchal systems of rule, where men dominate and control women. Modern, intelligent people know that denying women equal human rights is unjust and unfair ... that is why the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was written. It's time you left behind the primitive, barbaric mindset of your ancestors and step into the 21st century. Quit trying to justify the ideas that ignorant men wrote in the Bible, it makes you look like them.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Don't be idiotic! Of course there are human rights! It's only closed minded men like yourself who are trapped in the primitive male mindset of biblical thinking that think there aren't. All people share the quality of being human, and thus should be given equal human rights.

    Women don't need men to protect them, they need men to quit abusing them and violating their human rights by trying to dominate and control them! Just stop!



    Marriage partners should be helpers to each other that is what a true relationship is all about. The Bible is based on the primitive mindset of Patriarchal systems of rule, where men dominate and control women. Modern, intelligent people know that denying women equal human rights is unjust and unfair ... that is why the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was written. It's time you left behind the primitive, barbaric mindset of your ancestors and step into the 21st century. Quit trying to justify the ideas that ignorant men wrote in the Bible, it makes you look like them.
    It's time to stop making a folol of yourself Rose, IT IS HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE TO ACHIEVE EQUAL HUMAN RIGHTS Don't waste your time, it is better to spend your time pursuing other more achievable human rights such as more protection for women. I have logically told you that unless the lower human basic needs based on Maslow's hierarchy of needs such as security and safety are met, will humans be interested to meet higher needs such as equal human rights, And given the multiple variables and obstacles in culture, religion, laws, norms, politics, educational level, wealth, health etc, it is humanly impossible. Better to wait for a very intelligent and powerful force which we call God to help us achieve equal human rights.

    God bless.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    It's time to stop making a folol of yourself Rose, IT IS HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE TO ACHIEVE EQUAL HUMAN RIGHTS Don't waste your time, it is better to spend your time pursuing other more achievable human rights such as more protection for women. I have logically told you that unless the lower human basic needs based on Maslow's hierarchy of needs such as security and safety are met, will humans be interested to meet higher needs such as equal human rights, And given the multiple variables and obstacles in culture, religion, laws, norms, politics, educational level, wealth, health etc, it is humanly impossible. Better to wait for a very intelligent and powerful force which we call God to help us achieve equal human rights.

    God bless.
    Hello Cheow

    Whether or not something can be achieved, has no bearing on its validity! The fact of the matter is that all people share the quality of being human and as such are entitled to equal human rights, just like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states! All intelligent people know this, which is why they continue to fight for equality for all humans!

    People with intelligence know that the solution to gaining equal human rights for all people, lies in the education of ignorant men whose mental growth has been stagnated by primitive ideas like those found in the Bible. Yes, women do need to be protected from violent, abusive men, but that doesn't mean they should be denied equal human rights. It's the ignorant, abusive men that need to be taught that it is not their place to rule over and control women. Punish the perpetrators not the victims.

    As for the intelligence of the Biblegod, it's only as high as the primitive, barbaric men who created him. Fortunately, many humans have slowly risen above the ignorant, biased ideas of the Bible and realize that all humans are equal. That is why we now have a universal declaration that states clearly and unambiguously that all humans are entitled to equal human rights. Sad to say, it is people like you who are making the struggle for human rights that much harder.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Cheow

    Whether or not something can be achieved, has no bearing on its validity! The fact of the matter is that all people share the quality of being human and as such are entitled to equal human rights, just like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states! All intelligent people know this, which is why they continue to fight for equality for all humans!

    People with intelligence know that the solution to gaining equal human rights for all people, lies in the education of ignorant men whose mental growth has been stagnated by primitive ideas like those found in the Bible. Yes, women do need to be protected from violent, abusive men, but that doesn't mean they should be denied equal human rights. It's the ignorant, abusive men that need to be taught that it is not their place to rule over and control women. Punish the perpetrators not the victims.

    As for the intelligence of the Biblegod, it's only as high as the primitive, barbaric men who created him. Fortunately, many humans have slowly risen above the ignorant, biased ideas of the Bible and realize that all humans are equal. That is why we now have a universal declaration that states clearly and unambiguously that all humans are entitled to equal human rights. Sad to say, it is people like you who are making the struggle for human rights that much harder.
    Yes, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that all of us should respect religions meaning you cannot rid of the "supposed primitive barbaric men who created religions and gods" away from the picture. As such, based on your concept of primitive men and their religions are the cause of the inequality of equal human rights, then that inequality will continue to stay as long as there are "primitive men and their primitive religions". What you should blame is the theory of evolution which have existed for the supposed millions of years which made the supposed primitive men behavior of denying equal human rights to women so that they could rule and control women for the survival of the fittest. Habits die hard. Therefore, You should fight for the abolition of the theory of evolution which is the supposed cause of the inequality of human rights.

    You can only have equal human rights if the world's basic needs such as food, money, safety , security are met. And 80 % of the world's population is living below poverty line, do you think they will be interested in equal human rights when their survival and basic needs are not met? And based on the normal distribution curve which is statistically present in everything, the most about 20% of the world's population can achieve equal rights, 60% can achieved half the equal rights and 20% can achieve minimal equal rights. That already says so much of the impossibility of achieving human equal rights. Keep on Dreaming!...Don't waste your time!

    That is why I said the only way to achieve equal human rights is for a super intelligent and powerful force we call God to intervene and help us to achieve this elusive goal.

    God Bless.
    Last edited by CWH; 06-12-2014 at 07:48 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Yes, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that all of us should respect religions meaning you cannot rid of the "supposed primitive barbaric men who created religions and gods" away from the picture. As such, based on your concept of primitive men and their religions are the cause of the inequality of equal human rights, then that inequality will continue to stay as long as there are "primitive men and their primitive religions". What you should blame is the theory of evolution which have existed for the supposed millions of years which made the supposed primitive men behavior of denying equal human rights to women so that they could rule and control women for the survival of the fittest. Habits die hard. Therefore, You should fight for the abolition of the theory of evolution which is the supposed cause of the inequality of human rights.
    Your rambling words about evolution and denial of human rights makes no sense! Evolution is a process of change over time, which applies to human knowledge also. As human knowledge grows, so does our intelligence and ability to use reason and logic. Intelligent people know that we are all humans and as such are entitled to equal rights, that is why a group of intelligent people got together and formed a document called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    People should be free to practice whatever religion they choose, but they are not free to impose their religious beliefs on others! The biggest problem with the Christian religion is that it seeks to impose the mindset and ideas of primitive men upon its followers, keeping them frozen in a mentality of superstition and bias. Christians are not free to oppose the biased and immoral ideas of the Biblegod, because they are written in a book that they hold to be his word.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    You can only have equal human rights if the world's basic needs such as food, money, safety , security are met. And 80 % of the world's population is living below poverty line, do you think they will be interested in equal human rights when their survival and basic needs are not met? And based on the normal distribution curve which is statistically present in everything, the most about 20% of the world's population can achieve equal rights, 60% can achieved half the equal rights and 20% can achieve minimal equal rights. That already says so much of the impossibility of achieving human equal rights. Keep on Dreaming!...Don't waste your time!

    That is why I said the only way to achieve equal human rights is for a super intelligent and powerful force we call God to intervene and help us to achieve this elusive goal.

    God Bless.
    What are you talking about? It is the words of the Biblegod, written in the Bible that deny peoples human rights in the first place! It took intelligent humans to declare that all humans are created equal ... NOT god!

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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