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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    155
    Thanks for your Words of Encouragement Rosie!!!! I very much enjoy coming to a more complete understanding of your Worldview and where you are coming from.


    There are many aspects I can see that come to the defense of God.

    1. In Ancient Times before the advent of currency it is apparent to see that Slavery is Employment. Currency is the vehicle by which employment was made possible. In some ways this ancient model of employment is even better for the Slave than many Modern forms. In the Modern Age i am a Slave to Money... i have no guarantees that if i faithfully Slave away for 6 years that on the Seventh year I will be Free from debt, to the contrary in this Modern Age it appears that the more i slave for someone else the deeper in debt i become. This assertion can be further explored if need be.

    2. With the burden of proof being laid on the prosecution that the accused is innocent until proved guilty, the prosecution has failed to show that any of these Slaves were made Slaves against there will. It is very possible that the Slave readily entered into the Slavery contract of their own free will, much the same as i freely seek employment in exchange for money to gain food and shelter and healthcare etc...... Unless the Prosecution to prove that the Slaves were forced into slavery against there will then the charge does not stand under its own weight and my client should be found NOT-Guilty.

    3. Currently Every country in the World also engages in Slavery called Military Service, and yet most do not consider this to be IMMORAL or Wrong....Why is it okay for our Government to engage in Slavery but not okay for God?? If any "slave" chooses to end this slavery before the slave contract is up they will be imprisoned and subject to beatings, Rape, and many times death... under the UCMJ death is Valid punishment for deserters. Gods Slavery in the OT was better than this as it disallowed death by the master. Also in current economic slavery across the world while few are beaten to death, many are starved to death, cannot afford protection from the elements, waste away in death because they cannot afford healthcare. I would ask the prosecution which is more humane.

    4. In the strictest sense of the Idea that "Slavery is WRONG" the prosecution is absolutely correct!!!! I could not agree more.... In fact I would submit to you that Slavery is So WRONG it is even an illusion. It is impossible for ANYONE to be enslaved to ANYTHING against their will.. in this way Slavery is complete Illusion. Nobody can be my Master unless i consent.... i must submit to the master or i am not a slave....... The most any aspiring master can do is tell me "BE my Slave or else x,y,z....." I then have a choice to submit or suffer x,y,z. There is no Slavery without consent. Now the Intimidation or Bullying aspect of Proposed slavery by a Master may or may not be to our benefit and is another topic all together.

    5. I Must also agree with the prosecution that one of the most alarming aspects of Ancient Slavery is that the code seemed to work very differently for Men and Women... and for Nationals or Foreigners...... In my estimation this is the Strength of the Prosecutions case against my client.... That the national Men seemed to have Many more human rights than the women,children, foreigners.. Indeed this is something that we still with to this day in Modern Society.......

    I would submit to you that this is not a shortcoming of GOD but rather of Man. God's policy on Slavery at this time merely elevated Mans morality to higher level than it would had been if God had said nothing at all on the subject. It was an improvement, albeit a very small improvement. It was merely the highest level to which Man could even conceive at the time due to his Very immature Morality. Sure God could have commanded this and been categorically rejected in its entirety due to its obvious absurdity. "THou Shalt fashion a Coin and use it in exchange for labor based on an hourly rate, every Man shalt exchange this Coin for goods and services from other men, Each Man Shalt pay a portion of this Coin to the State which then will provide for the public defense and welfare of the general public. Each Man, Woman, and Child Shalt receive the same Coin per Hour based upon the Time spent Producing, or maybe on the value of that Production. If a Man should become injured the he Shalt receive his daily Coin even if he cannot produce, Each Woman that is with Child shall receive her Coin while with Child even if she does not produce and for a period of four weeks thereafter, The collection of Coin from each laborer Shalt be spent to provide for healthcare of everyone weather they are producing or not......" I think you get my point it would almost by like me sitting my two year old child down and teaching them about theoretical Quantum Mechanics.
    I know that the Prosecution will probably say that my client did not need to get that in depth with the economy of Slavery but that a very simple instruction that all Men, Women, and Children were equal in the Sight of the Lord would have sufficed in order for God to have been considered Just. For millions of years humankind had operated under the premise that Man had more rights than women or children so i am not convinced they were able to conceive that idea yet. This is very evident even in our Enlightened Modern Age we still struggle with Equal rights, this is not an indictment of God but of the ignorance of Man.
    This is further evidenced by a further revelation of this same God in his son Jesus. Jesus helps us come to a more complete knowledge of the wisdom of God that is much more humane and fair.
    Further more we must be very careful that in Judging God to be UNJUST for the actions of sinful men we are actually making the world more Unjust and barbaric. In the last 100 years every time a society or culture has categorically rejected God and the belief in a Just God and instead choose to rely on a version of a more "Fair" and "Equal" man-made Justice has been a complete and abject failure.... take for example exhibits A, B, C.

    A. Mao's Godless China..... Possibly the biggest violator of Human Rights throughout of all History.... 70 Million dead in ushering in this Idea.
    B. Stalin and Lenin's Godless Russia and USSR.
    C. Hitlers Fascist Germany.....The Holocaust resulting in the death of many Jewish, gypsy, and homosexual humans.

    If the Prosecution would like to examine any of these 3 exhibits in closer detail then i have no objection.

    Herein lies the problem that in any Society upon denying the existence of God does not exterminate God, but instead promotes the State to God. The State time and time again has been shown to be a MUCH more merciless and Cruel God then God has ever been. Some may claim that could never happen now days .... I would urge anyone making that claim to reconsider.

    So yes a verdict of Guilty for my client is not a verdict for Equality or Fairness, but instead a verdict for Inequality and Unfairness. God was merely elevating Man to the Highest extent of his current Moral maturity.

    In many ways I completely agree with the Prosecution that MANY things that occur in the OT Bible and attributed to the OT God are VERY Barbaric WRONG and IMMORAL by today's modern standards.. there is NO doubt about that assertion..... Sadly God was not dealing with Modern Man but with Ancient Man blinded and limited by his own Moral immaturity.... and interestingly enough the same could be said for Modern Man trying to achieve the Higher Ideals of Justness and Fairness and Equality in the Modern Age also.

    I have no doubt that even if today God choose to reveal his highest and most complete picture of 'Good, Fairness, and Equality' that the all of humanity would scoff at it as completely unrealistic, illogical, and impossible, even to include the most faithful, trusting, and bible believing Christians of our Time, so instead we just get incomplete versions that raise our understanding in small increments...

    OHHH how much things have changed and How much they stay the same....

    At this point the Defense yields the floor to the Prosecution......

    With utter devotion to Love and Truth,
    Matthjar.


    Very much looking forward to your response Rosie!!!! I do not doubt that we are both trying to arrive at the same place but merely disagree about the best path to take to get us too that place...

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthjar View Post
    Thanks for your Words of Encouragement Rosie!!!! I very much enjoy coming to a more complete understanding of your Worldview and where you are coming from.


    There are many aspects I can see that come to the defense of God.

    1. In Ancient Times before the advent of currency it is apparent to see that Slavery is Employment. Currency is the vehicle by which employment was made possible. In some ways this ancient model of employment is even better for the Slave than many Modern forms. In the Modern Age i am a Slave to Money... i have no guarantees that if i faithfully Slave away for 6 years that on the Seventh year I will be Free from debt, to the contrary in this Modern Age it appears that the more i slave for someone else the deeper in debt i become. This assertion can be further explored if need be.
    Hello Matthjar

    I am pleased to enter the courtroom again with you ...

    Currency is not the issue here, because long before currency was "coined", goods were exchanged for labor. As for your reference to the guarantee of a slave being freed in the seventh year, that only applied to male Hebrew servants ... foreign slaves and women were afforded no such right according to biblical laws supposedly given by the god who is on trial in this courtroom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthjar View Post
    2. With the burden of proof being laid on the prosecution that the accused is innocent until proved guilty, the prosecution has failed to show that any of these Slaves were made Slaves against there will. It is very possible that the Slave readily entered into the Slavery contract of their own free will, much the same as i freely seek employment in exchange for money to gain food and shelter and healthcare etc...... Unless the Prosecution to prove that the Slaves were forced into slavery against there will then the charge does not stand under its own weight and my client should be found NOT-Guilty.
    Ah, but abundant evidence has been shown starting with the term "Slavery" itself as defined by the Bible. Remember, the term slavery was used by the Biblegod in reference to the Hebrews who were held in bondage against their will by the Egyptians. The biblical laws given in Leviticus make a clear difference between a "Bondservant", and a "Hired servant" ... Hebrew men could not be owned as slaves, but rather they could only be used as a hired servant who must be freed in the year of Jubilee. These rules did not apply to foreign slaves or women who were considered the property of men.



    1. Lev.25:38-43 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, to give you the land of Canaan, and to be your God. And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee; thou shalt not compel him to serve as a bondservant: But as an hired servant, and as a sojourner, he shall be with thee, and shall serve thee unto the year of jubile: And then shall he depart from thee, both he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return. For they are my servants, which I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: they shall not be sold as bondmen. Thou shalt not rule over him with rigour; but shalt fear thy God.



    It is clear to see that the Biblegod is strongly biased in favor of Hebrew men, which shows his unjust and immoral nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthjar View Post
    3. Currently Every country in the World also engages in Slavery called Military Service, and yet most do not consider this to be IMMORAL or Wrong....Why is it okay for our Government to engage in Slavery but not okay for God?? If any "slave" chooses to end this slavery before the slave contract is up they will be imprisoned and subject to beatings, Rape, and many times death... under the UCMJ death is Valid punishment for deserters. Gods Slavery in the OT was better than this as it disallowed death by the master. Also in current economic slavery across the world while few are beaten to death, many are starved to death, cannot afford protection from the elements, waste away in death because they cannot afford healthcare. I would ask the prosecution which is more humane.
    In this courtroom it is the Biblegod who is on trial, but I am quite sure that if our government or any other government in the world made up of people were put on trial, they too would be found guilty of gross human rights violations. Slavery is slavery no matter who the slave-master is, but when the slave-master is the supposed creator himself it is exceedingly bad and grounds for labeling him a fraud ... a deity made up in the minds of men.


    Quote Originally Posted by Matthjar View Post
    4. In the strictest sense of the Idea that "Slavery is WRONG" the prosecution is absolutely correct!!!! I could not agree more.... In fact I would submit to you that Slavery is So WRONG it is even an illusion. It is impossible for ANYONE to be enslaved to ANYTHING against their will.. in this way Slavery is complete Illusion. Nobody can be my Master unless i consent.... i must submit to the master or i am not a slave....... The most any aspiring master can do is tell me "BE my Slave or else x,y,z....." I then have a choice to submit or suffer x,y,z. There is no Slavery without consent. Now the Intimidation or Bullying aspect of Proposed slavery by a Master may or may not be to our benefit and is another topic all together.
    Again, the idea that there is no slavery without consent, is not the charge presented in this trial. The charge is: does the Biblegod allow, sanction and condone slavery? The answer is most surely a resounding YES!

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthjar View Post
    5. I Must also agree with the prosecution that one of the most alarming aspects of Ancient Slavery is that the code seemed to work very differently for Men and Women... and for Nationals or Foreigners...... In my estimation this is the Strength of the Prosecutions case against my client.... That the national Men seemed to have Many more human rights than the women,children, foreigners.. Indeed this is something that we still with to this day in Modern Society.......

    I would submit to you that this is not a shortcoming of GOD but rather of Man. God's policy on Slavery at this time merely elevated Mans morality to higher level than it would had been if God had said nothing at all on the subject. It was an improvement, albeit a very small improvement. It was merely the highest level to which Man could even conceive at the time due to his Very immature Morality. Sure God could have commanded this and been categorically rejected in its entirety due to its obvious absurdity.
    The motion of the prosecution is the fact that according to the Bible, its god did choose to intervene and make laws and judgments concerning slavery, as such he is held responsible for the results of those actions. If man's level of morality was such that he could understand the idea of justice being the fair treatment of humans, then they surely could have understood the "Owning" of other humans is wrong.

    If the Ten Commandments can state that disrespectful talk, bearing false witness, stealing and jealousy are wrong, how much more wrong is robbing another human of their freedom by owning them as a slave and treating them in a biased manner based on gender. I claim that by the Biblegods intervention of making laws and judgments concerning slavery, he is held responsible for slavery and is deemed to be unjust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthjar View Post
    I know that the Prosecution will probably say that my client did not need to get that in depth with the economy of Slavery but that a very simple instruction that all Men, Women, and Children were equal in the Sight of the Lord would have sufficed in order for God to have been considered Just. For millions of years humankind had operated under the premise that Man had more rights than women or children so i am not convinced they were able to conceive that idea yet. This is very evident even in our Enlightened Modern Age we still struggle with Equal rights, this is not an indictment of God but of the ignorance of Man.
    This is further evidenced by a further revelation of this same God in his son Jesus. Jesus helps us come to a more complete knowledge of the wisdom of God that is much more humane and fair.
    The idea that men could not conceive of the idea gender equality does not hold up. Since the dawn of human civilization there have been egalitarian societies, albeit very few. Also, the Bible has no shortage of laws and commands that most of the people did not understand, yet they were required to OBEY, so there is no reason why laws could not have been given that forbade slavery and gender bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthjar View Post
    Further more we must be very careful that in Judging God to be UNJUST for the actions of sinful men we are actually making the world more Unjust and barbaric. In the last 100 years every time a society or culture has categorically rejected God and the belief in a Just God and instead choose to rely on a version of a more "Fair" and "Equal" man-made Justice has been a complete and abject failure.... take for example exhibits A, B, C.

    A. Mao's Godless China..... Possibly the biggest violator of Human Rights throughout of all History.... 70 Million dead in ushering in this Idea.
    B. Stalin and Lenin's Godless Russia and USSR.
    C. Hitlers Fascist Germany.....The Holocaust resulting in the death of many Jewish, gypsy, and homosexual humans.

    If the Prosecution would like to examine any of these 3 exhibits in closer detail then i have no objection.
    The truth of the matter is that when one compares the laws, decrees and justice of the Bible, to the laws, decrees and justice of man, one finds there is NO DIFFERENCE between the two ... leading to the conclusion that the Biblegod and his laws are just a construct of the human mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthjar View Post
    Herein lies the problem that in any Society upon denying the existence of God does not exterminate God, but instead promotes the State to God. The State time and time again has been shown to be a MUCH more merciless and Cruel God then God has ever been. Some may claim that could never happen now days .... I would urge anyone making that claim to reconsider.

    So yes a verdict of Guilty for my client is not a verdict for Equality or Fairness, but instead a verdict for Inequality and Unfairness. God was merely elevating Man to the Highest extent of his current Moral maturity.

    In many ways I completely agree with the Prosecution that MANY things that occur in the OT Bible and attributed to the OT God are VERY Barbaric WRONG and IMMORAL by today's modern standards.. there is NO doubt about that assertion..... Sadly God was not dealing with Modern Man but with Ancient Man blinded and limited by his own Moral immaturity.... and interestingly enough the same could be said for Modern Man trying to achieve the Higher Ideals of Justness and Fairness and Equality in the Modern Age also.

    I have no doubt that even if today God choose to reveal his highest and most complete picture of 'Good, Fairness, and Equality' that the all of humanity would scoff at it as completely unrealistic, illogical, and impossible, even to include the most faithful, trusting, and bible believing Christians of our Time, so instead we just get incomplete versions that raise our understanding in small increments...

    OHHH how much things have changed and How much they stay the same....

    At this point the Defense yields the floor to the Prosecution......

    With utter devotion to Love and Truth,
    Matthjar.


    Very much looking forward to your response Rosie!!!! I do not doubt that we are both trying to arrive at the same place but merely disagree about the best path to take to get us too that place...
    I think I have clearly shown that the ability of ancient man to comprehend a morality based on equal human rights was totally within their capabilities. The excuse that god was working with men of limited moral intelligence and therefore had to progress by allowing injustice is flawed on many counts:

    1. Ancient men were able to obey laws and decrees that they didn't understand.

    2. Ancient men did understand the idea of fairness, and justice, like balancing weights on a scale.

    3. The idea of treating others as yourself was a concept that men understood in biblical times.

    4. Egalitarian societies did exist in biblical times, so the idea of gender equality was understood.

    5. Immaturity is no excuse for wrong behavior ... children do not understand many of the rules that are imposed upon them, yet they are expected to obey. Mature adults are supposed to be teaching their children right from wrong, because children are too immature to know right from wrong, the same holds true for god.


    I will await your reply,

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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