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  1. #1
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    God on Trial: Are God's Laws Moral?

    On another thread we have been discussing the human rights violations contained in the Bible, and whether or not the Biblegod is justified in allowing things like slavery and discrimination against women to be promoted as moral.

    Craig mention the idea of giving god a fair and just hearing, so I thought of using the platform and standards of a modern day Court of Law, to put him on trial. I will be a prosecuting attorney, everyone else who participates can choose to be a defender or prosecutor, so here goes ...


    1. The first charge is the violation of human rights by allowing slavery: which means the ownership of another person without their consent ... how do you plead?
    Last edited by Rose; 06-09-2014 at 01:05 PM.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

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    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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    The prosecution takes the stand

    Acting as prosecuting attorney on behalf of all the people whose human rights have been violated, by being enslaved by the decrees of the Biblegod, I present my first line of evidence taken from Leviticus.

    Lev.25:44-47 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

    The passage above clearly indites the Biblegod in the act of allowing the Hebrew people to buy people from surrounding communities for the purpose of owning them as slaves, thus violating their human rights. These slaves and their children are allowed to be passed down as an inheritance in perpetuity. The passage also mentions that heathen slaves can be treated in a harsher manner than Hebrew slaves, showing bias and unfair treatment depending on a persons ethnicity.

    It appears that the Biblegod is convicted of the violation of human rights through slavery, by his own words. How do you plead?
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Acting as prosecuting attorney on behalf of all the people whose human rights have been violated, by being enslaved by the decrees of the Biblegod, I present my first line of evidence taken from Leviticus.
    Lev.25:44-47 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

    The passage above clearly indites the Biblegod in the act of allowing the Hebrew people to buy people from surrounding communities for the purpose of owning them as slaves, thus violating their human rights. These slaves and their children are allowed to be passed down as an inheritance in perpetuity. The passage also mentions that heathen slaves can be treated in a harsher manner than Hebrew slaves, showing bias and unfair treatment depending on a persons ethnicity.

    It appears that the Biblegod is convicted of the violation of human rights through slavery, by his own words. How do you plead?
    Since no one has risen up in defense of the Biblegod I shall continue on with my case against him. The charge is that the Biblegod condones the immoral act of slavery by allowing the Hebrews to buy and sell people.


    1. Exo.21:2-4 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
    2. Exo.21:20-21 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.


    In the verses above the slavery laws given by the Biblegod are laid out. If the slave master gives to his male slave a wife and she bears children to her slave husband, the children of the slave wife belong to her master and they are not allowed to leave. The second verse describes the extent of the abuse a slave master can mete out to his slave ... as long as the slave doesn't die anything goes! So, not only does the Biblegod allow the Hebrews to own slaves, he allows them to beat them to within an inch of their lives! Wow!

    It's not looking good for the Biblegod, as the evidence piles up against him from his own book.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Since no one has risen up in defense of the Biblegod I shall continue on with my case against him. The charge is that the Biblegod condones the immoral act of slavery by allowing the Hebrews to buy and sell people.
    [*]Exo.21:2-4 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
    The passage provide the best security and survival for the wife and children of the slave to be under the master's care. If the slave children and the wife were to follow the financially poor slave who were released, they might not be able to survive the harsh realities of the outside world and fend for themselves. If the poor slave who was released were usually given a small sum of money so that he can either used in to survive and work and to remarry once he becomes financially viable.

    [*]Exo.21:20-21 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

    In the verses above the slavery laws given by the Biblegod are laid out. If the slave master gives to his male slave a wife and she bears children to her slave husband, the children of the slave wife belong to her master and they are not allowed to leave. The second verse describes the extent of the abuse a slave master can mete out to his slave ... as long as the slave doesn't die anything goes! So, not only does the Biblegod allow the Hebrews to own slaves, he allows them to beat them to within an inch of their lives! Wow!

    It's not looking good for the Biblegod, as the evidence piles up against him from his own book.
    I have no problem with the above passage which served a warning to the slave master not to deal too severely with the slaves. If they over do it in beating the slaves and they died, the master will have to be punished with death; if he caused an injury by the beatings, then he will have to nurse the slave's injury and care for him until recovery; if the slave was beaten resulted in unconsciousness (whether real or fake) then the master is to allow his slave a day of rest or two to regain his consciousness. But if his unconsciousness resulted in death, the master will have to pay for his life.

    The law thus put a curb on how far the punishment of the slave can go; if the slave dies, the master will have to die; if the slave is injured, the master must nursed him till recovery, if the slave becomes unconscious, the master must ensure that the slave has a rest or two to regain consciousness. As this is his money, no master will want to go to the extend to injure or traumatize a slave into unconsciousness as that will be a loss to him in terms of working days; to kill the slave will result in his own death.

    God Bless.
    Last edited by CWH; 06-11-2014 at 10:47 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    The passage provide the best security and survival for the wife and children of the slave to be under the master's care. If the slave children and the wife were to follow the financially poor slave who were released, they might not be able to survive the harsh realities of the outside world and fend for themselves. If the poor slave who was released were usually given a small sum of money so that he can either used in to survive and work and to remarry once he becomes financially viable.
    The charge is whether or not the Biblegod condones and allows the immoral act of slavery. All you are doing is trying to justify why its okay to own slaves. If slavery is immoral then no matter what reason you give for people owning slaves, it is still WRONG! Slavery denies people their basic human rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. No intelligent person would ever try and justify slavery.



    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    I have no problem with the above passage which served a warning to the slave master not to deal too severely with the slaves. If they over do it in beating the slaves and they died, the master will have to be punished with death; if he caused an injury by the beatings, then he will have to nurse the slave's injury and care for him until recovery; if the slave was beaten resulted in unconsciousness (whether real or fake) then the master is to allow his slave a day of rest or two to regain his consciousness. But if his unconsciousness resulted in death, the master will have to pay for his life.
    Again, you are trying to give justifications for slavery! That is truly sad and pathetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    The law thus put a curb on how far the punishment of the slave can go; if the slave dies, the master will have to die; if the slave is injured, the master must nursed him till recovery, if the slave becomes unconscious, the master must ensure that the slave has a rest or two to regain consciousness. As this is his money, no master will want to go to the extend to injure or traumatize a slave into unconsciousness as that will be a loss to him in terms of working days; to kill the slave will result in his own death.

    God Bless.
    Don't you get it? Slavery is immoral and WRONG! By the Biblegod's own words in the Bible, he allows and condones slavery ... therefore he is guilty of egregious human rights violations.

    I say the Biblegod is guilty as charged!
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The charge is whether or not the Biblegod condones and allows the immoral act of slavery. All you are doing is trying to justify why its okay to own slaves. If slavery is immoral then no matter what reason you give for people owning slaves, it is still WRONG! Slavery denies people their basic human rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. No intelligent person would ever try and justify slavery.

    Again, you are trying to give justifications for slavery! That is truly sad and pathetic.

    Don't you get it? Slavery is immoral and WRONG! By the Biblegod's own words in the Bible, he allows and condones slavery ... therefore he is guilty of egregious human rights violations.

    I say the Biblegod is guilty as charged!
    And You will be charged of wrong accusation and defamation of God!

    Which person in his right mind would want to willingly get himself into slavery? yet the Bible states that the me willingly accepted slavery as he had no choice but to choose this work. Are you trying to stop people's freedom of human rights to do what he thinks is right? Slavery in ancient times was a form of occupation which some people may choose in acknowledgement of the nature, risks and job scope of the work. There was no coercion.
    It is the same as some people are forced into prostitution i.e. willingly selling their body for sex knowing the risks as it is the only way to earn money in order to survive and feed their family:

    Exo.21:2-4 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

    God Bless.
    Last edited by CWH; 06-12-2014 at 08:07 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    And You will be charged of wrong accusation and defamation of God!

    Which person in his right mind would want to willingly get himself into slavery? Yet the Bible states that the men willingly accepted slavery as he had no choice but to choose this work.
    Slavery is WRONG, and IMMORAL! A person should never be forced to become a slave because of needing work. Employment is the answer to needing work, not making someone a slave. The Biblegod explicitly approved of and condoned the method of buying and selling people for the purpose of needing workers.

    In our society there are many people who are poor and need work and there are people who need workers, but that does not mean we allow people to own slaves. As I have said many times, intelligent people know that it is WRONG to own people as slaves ... why doesn't the Biblegod know that it is WRONG? Because the Biblegod was created in the minds of primitive men, who saw nothing wrong with owning slaves and denying people human rights. You are put in the awkward position of having to defend the ideas of primitive men, thus it makes you look like an immoral and biased individual.

    Slavery is always wrong and immoral!


    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post

    Are you trying to stop people's freedom of human rights to do what he thinks is right? Slavery in ancient times was a form of occupation which some people may choose in acknowledgement of the nature, risks and job scope of the work. There was no coercion.
    It is the same as some people are forced into prostitution i.e. willingly selling their body for sex knowing the risks as it is the only way to earn money in order to survive and feed their family:

    Exo.21:2-4 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

    God Bless.
    Now you are trying to justify the immoral act of slavery by stating that it is a human right! What is wrong with your sense of morality? Has your thinking been so corrupted by your religious beliefs that you can't even say that slavery is WRONG!

    It is always wrong to own another human being, employment can be granted without ownership. Ownership means one individual has control over every aspect of another persons life, and that is wrong.

    The charge against the Biblegod still stands: guilty of the immoral act of allowing and condoning slavery!
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #8
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    God on Trail

    The Biblegod has been charged with the immoral act of violating peoples human rights by allowing and condoning slavery. Acting as a prosecuting attorney I have presented many passages from the Bible, also known as "The Word of God" showing the decrees the Biblegod given, which allow egregious acts of immorality to take place ... namely the buying and selling of human beings.

    Biblical teaching still allows people to own slaves, and Jesus NEVER condemned slavery as a human rights violation, thus the charge of immorality stands.

    The Biblegod is guilty of gross human rights violations, by allowing and condoning Slavery .
    .. he is condemned by his own words and by the mouths of many witnesses.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #9
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    I would like to enter in as a participant in this trial..... first i must make a few admissions:

    1. I, having no specific training in modern legal legalities, habits, procedures, manners, traditions, proclivities thereof, will merely do my best to direct the court to obtaining the absolute Truth of the matter. My humblest apologies if I in away affront the wisdom of the Court.

    2. It is Wise for the Court to make Proper Judgments based on all available evidence.

    3. The Courts Judgement while important for us is also non binding as it is impossible for the Finite to bind the Infinite.


    In matter of the first charge brought by the prosecution.

    1. The first charge is the violation of human rights by allowing slavery: which means the ownership of another person without their consent

    We cannot charge God for Evil that he allows. This is merely a result of Free-Will that he must allow much Evil as Humanity has the choice to Choose such. If this were the case we could Charge God for All manners of Evil created by his Creation which can only be rectified by Charging God for granting us Free-Will which nullifies all findings of this Court and making it pointless if we have not Free Will.

    I would ask that the record be stricken of the word "allowing" and instead using the word "Commanded" or "Condoned" or another word decided upon by the prosecution which more clearly shows the nature of the charge against God.

    My Client cannot be held responsible for all the things that he merely allows, any more than I can be judged for "allowing" anyone else to do anything at all. It should not be the one allowing the offense but the one committing the offense that should be held accountable for the action. The Prosecution will have to show that my client had a more active influence on the action of slavery.

    At this time i yield the floor to the prosecution to respond to this request.

    Matthjar

    As a defense attorney I already have defenses lined out for the choice of either word Condoned or Commanded.... but wait for the Prosecution in case they amend the charge to a third unknown or wish to continue debate soley on the premise of allowing.....
    Last edited by Matthjar; 08-10-2014 at 05:29 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthjar View Post
    I would like to enter in as a participant in this trial..... first i must make a few admissions:

    1. I, having no specific training in modern legal legalities, habits, procedures, manners, traditions, proclivities thereof, will merely do my best to direct the court to obtaining the absolute Truth of the matter. My humblest apologies if I in away affront the wisdom of the Court.

    2. It is Wise for the Court to make Proper Judgments based on all available evidence.

    3. The Courts Judgement while important for us is also non binding as it is impossible for the Finite to bind the Infinite.


    In matter of the first charge brought by the prosecution.

    1. The first charge is the violation of human rights by allowing slavery: which means the ownership of another person without their consent

    We cannot charge God for Evil that he allows. This is merely a result of Free-Will that he must allow much Evil as Humanity has the choice to Choose such. If this were the case we could Charge God for All manners of Evil created by his Creation which can only be rectified by Charging God for granting us Free-Will which nullifies all findings of this Court and making it pointless if we have not Free Will.

    I would ask that the record be stricken of the word "allowing" and instead using the word "Commanded" or "Condoned" or another word decided upon by the prosecution which more clearly shows the nature of the charge against God.

    My Client cannot be held responsible for all the things that he merely allows, any more than I can be judged for "allowing" anyone else to do anything at all. It should not be the one allowing the offense but the one committing the offense that should be held accountable for the action. The Prosecution will have to show that my client had a more active influence on the action of slavery.

    At this time i yield the floor to the prosecution to respond to this request.

    Matthjar

    As a defense attorney I already have defenses lined out for the choice of either word Condoned or Commanded.... but wait for the Prosecution in case they amend the charge to a third unknown or wish to continue debate soley on the premise of allowing.....
    Hello Matthjar

    So glad you entered into the conversation, and took the position of defense attorney.



    Addressing the point you made of not charging god for the evil he allows:


    1. The charge against god of gross human rights violations for allowing slavery is based solely on the fact that the Bible, which is held by many people to be the "Word of God" contains laws, commands, and ordinances that specifically address and sanction the "keeping of slaves". This goes far beyond the simple allowing of evil to take place and into the realm of structuring laws that condone and sanction slavery.

    2. The active influence that the Biblegod had on the owning of slaves is covered quite thoroughly in Leviticus 25, and Exodus 21, but by no means constrained to those passages. Not only are foreigners allowed to be bought and sold by the Hebrews under "God's Law", but Hebrew daughters are allowed to be sold by their fathers, under the laws given by the Biblegod. People who believe in the Bible claim that god specifically gave Moses all the laws (including slavery laws) that pertain to their daily lives, therefore he is responsible for the actions those laws cover.


    Closing Statement: The giving of specific laws that deal with slavery, is about as actively influencing as one can get. God allowed the Hebrews to continue taking and keeping slaves, as long as they were in accordance with the laws he gave, therefore he is an active participant in allowing the institution of "Human ownership" ... SLAVERY to continue ...



    Kind regards,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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