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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi toxon,

    This post began as a comment on the following quote, but it has drifted on somewhat from there. No apologies for that except for its greater range.



    I have found Timmy to have an astonishingly high pain threshold and to be able to stomach visual input which would do my brain no good whatever. So, when he does a little imitation of an ancient prophet's more extreme satire, it's just to make sure that the message is nice and clear, and no more offensive (in his mind) than those by any of the biblical characters who used similar tactics to make their statements unmissable. I have to say, as time goes by this procedure has been slowly metamorphosing. Into what? We shall see. When it comes to making sense, sometimes, you just have to run with the balls you can catch, and let the others fall to the ground for the time being.
    The above is timmy-tomfoolery of the highest magnitude and a meaningless waste of time:
    Not here to discuss the "high pain threshold" of the Timmy or his "metamorphosing techniques".


    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Going back to Messiah proceeding forth from the Father... Don't you see that we also are/were all with the Son, in the Father, before time?

    The difference between us and Him is timing. All that were in Adam, died. So although Adam was modeled on the perfect Son, having come forth before Him, when Messiah came straight from the Father, He was still free of all Adam's sin and death. Yes?

    The idea that we do not have a spirit of our own is very hard to support from scripture, particularly because we are told that the spirit of a man goes back to God when he dies - which is exactly what happened when the Messiah died, according to John and much scripture before John. Therefore, when the writer to the Hebrews says, 'shall we not rather be subject to the Father of spirits (plural) and live?' this is totally in keeping with what Paul said at the beginning of Ephesians 2, where he refers to 'the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience' (unbelief) - and we know that spirit is the devil.

    ' ... ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.'
    Where have I ever said we do not have "a spirit" of our own?
    Who exactly do you think he is that is the unclean spirit of the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us...'[/COLOR]

    How can Yeshua ask for this if He is only a man? I genuinely have no idea how you can hold to the idea that He is only a man.
    From the thread "Shema Yisrael", Post #19, Page Two:

    Quote Originally Posted by toxon View Post
    Actually Timmy while you are here perhaps you might begin establishing some of your self proclaimed wisdom by explaining the differences between "heis" and "hen" and why they are employed the way they are in certain contexts, (clue to the wise: some of the very rules you have been handed down from your teachers are your own stumbling blocks). I will open the post with a verse from the 1Timothy2 passage already referenced once in this thread:

    1 Timothy 2:5 ASV
    5. For there is
    one [GSN#1520 εἷς - "heis"] God, one [GSN#1520 εἷς - "heis"] mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,

    1 Timothy 2:5 Westcott-Hort
    Εἷς γὰρ θεός, εἷς καὶ μεσίτης θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς,
    http://biblehub.com/text/1_timothy/2-5.htm

    Mark 12:29 ASV
    29. Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is
    one: [GSN#1520 εἷς - "heis"]

    Mark 12:29 Westcott-Hort
    ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι Πρώτη ἐστίν Ἄκουε, Ἰσραήλ, Κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν κύριος
    εἷς ἐστίν,
    http://biblehub.com/text/mark/12-29.htm

    John 10:30 ASV
    30. I and the Father are
    one [GSN#1520 ἓν - "hen"].

    John 10:30 Westcott-Hort
    ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ
    ἕν ἐσμεν.
    http://biblehub.com/text/john/10-30.htm

    John 17:21-23 ASV
    21. that they may all be
    one; [GSN#1520 ἓν - "hen"] even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.
    22. And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be
    one, [GSN#1520 ἓν - "hen"] even as we are one; [GSN#1520 ἓν - "hen"]
    23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into
    one; [GSN#1520 ἓν - "hen"] that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me.

    John 17:21-23 Westcott-Hort
    ἵνα πάντες
    ἓν ὦσιν, καθὼς σύ, πατήρ, ἐν ἐμοὶ κἀγὼ ἐν σοί, ἵνα καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐν ἡμῖν ὦσιν, ἵνα ὁ κόσμος πιστεύῃ ὅτι σύ με ἀπέστειλας.
    http://biblehub.com/text/john/17-21.htm
    κἀγὼ τὴν δόξαν ἣν δέδωκάς μοι δέδωκα αὐτοῖς, ἵνα ὦσιν ἓν καθὼς ἡμεῖς ἕν,
    http://biblehub.com/text/john/17-22.htm
    ἐγὼ ἐν αὐτοῖς καὶ σὺ ἐν ἐμοί, ἵνα ὦσιν τετελειωμένοι εἰς ἕν, ἵνα γινώσκῃ ὁ κόσμος ὅτι σύ με ἀπέστειλας καὶ ἠγάπησας αὐτοὺς καθὼς ἐμὲ ἠγάπησας.
    http://biblehub.com/text/john/17-23.htm

    There is 1 [heis] God and there is 1 [heis] mediator between God and men: the man Yeshua Messiah.
    Otherwise every talmid can become a mediator between God and man if we are one [hen] with Messiah.
    By watering down the meaning of heis you are watering down the authority of Messiah as the only Mediator.
    Perhaps you can likewise answer for the Timmy on the above since he has not responded in the other thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Psalm 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord,
    Sit thou at my right hand,
    until I make thine enemies thy footstool.



    He was Lord before He came to earth, is what this prophecy is telling us. It is even saying that His Father would make His enemies His footstool. Where have we heard that before?

    John 14:Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    There is also a huge discussion to be had about whose love is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Is it God's love, as Paul says first, or is it Messiah's love? Is that the same love, or, is Messiah's limited somehow by His humanity? Why would Paul say that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, if the love of God was better and greater? Or, by the Holy Spirit, is it just one love? God is love. And what is the effect of God's love in our hearts, anyway? Surely God's love is the love He has for us (others) and if we have that love, we will 'love' beyond ourselves, just as He did?

    Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Interesting that we become filled with 'the fulness of God' by receiving the love of Christ, don't you think? I've never looked at these verses in the context of a discussion about the deity of Messiah, but they definitely raise some good questions.


    By the way, I am not at all following the discussion about angels. Hebrews 1 and 2 makes exceptionally clear that Yeshua was not an angel when He was here, and that when He was born, the holy angels were commanded to worship Him. His role as a messenger of God before His incarnation is a completely different thing from Him being merely a ministering spirit - a flame of fire. And anyway... it sounds as if you don't believe He existed before He was born on earth, so you must have some other explanation for the 'Angel' which went with the Israelites, in whom Yahweh's name was residing.


    Now, the things I was thinking about the Septuagint, are several. The first is, what was the purpose of translating it into Greek at all? Was it that Hebrews had become so removed from their natural roots, that they had lost the language and needed it to be brought into the common vernacular? Or, was it because the Hebrews who had control of the originals had become so worldly?
    Perhaps you should follow the discussion about "angels" a little closer then? Did you know that 'Elohim is rendered as "angels" or "messengers" in Hebrews 2:7 from Psalms 8:5? What do you or the Timmy have to say about that or how do you explain it? Are there lesser classes of 'elohim that are messenger-angels or is it a mistake or an alteration in the Masoretic Text while the author is quoting from the Septuagint? If you or the Timmy do not even know about this then how is it that you think you are justified in judging one who has already investigated these things? And if you have no answer for why what I just stated is in fact the case, with 'elohim being rendered as "angelous" in Hebrews 2:7, then do you not think it would be wise to go find out how this might impact your doctrine before you start labeling someone else a heretic just because he does not believe what you believe? Perhaps you do not have the grasp on the first two chapters of the Epistle to the Hebrews that you imagine? And what of the Prototokos-Firstborn found in Hebrews 1:6? Does it refer to Yisrael or Yeshua or both? And should "oikoumene" be understood as the "world" as widely translated or does it rather refer to the Land, (of Yisrael)? Or do you even think these things matter? Or have you ever even thought to ask such questions?

    Hebrews 1:1-6
    1. Elohim, having spoken to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways of old time;
    2. hath in these last days spoken to us in his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he acted out the aionas-ages,
    3. who being the radiant off-flash of the glory and character of the essence of him, bearing both all of the remati-spoken-words and the dunameos-power of him, a cleansing of sins having made, was seated at the right of the Majesty on high:
    4. having become so much better than the messengers; for as much as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they.
    5. For unto which of the messengers said he ever, "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee"? And again, "I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son"?
    6. Moreover when he leads the prototokos-firstborn, (Yisrael ~ Shemot-Exodus 4:22) anew-again into the land, (of Yisrael) he says: "And let all the messengers of Elohim do obeisance unto him."


    And every messenger sent to Yisrael after Moshe indeed writes and speaks of Messiah.
    And what then if every English translation of the above is found to be in error? What will you do?
    Will you continue blindly as you do even now after so many proofs already having been shown to you?
    Last edited by toxon; 06-14-2014 at 12:07 AM.

    And David lamented with this lamentation over Sha'ul, and over Yhonathan his son, and he bade teach the sons of Yhudah the song of the bow; behold, it is written in the Book of the Upright. The Tsebiy of Yisrael is slain upon thy high places: O how the gibborim are fallen!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    And anyway... it sounds as if you don't believe He existed before He was born on earth, so you must have some other explanation for the 'Angel' which went with the Israelites, in whom Yahweh's name was residing.
    This was already addressed in your own thread called "Self Sacrifice", (Mesiras Nephesh) but apparently you must have skipped over it or you would not say that I "must have some other explanation" for the passage. Yeshua explains it but will you believe his words this time around? Or do you still think the difference between "me" and "you" is not worth the hearing? Ya-know, ya-know, ya-know, that is indeed the very opening statement of the Shema: "HEAR, O YISRAEL!" And it is not myself but Yeshua who tells you that the messenger of that passage is Yochanan the Immerser:

    Quote Originally Posted by toxon View Post
    Yes, and the Word speaks expressly the following as I tried to say as plainly as could be said. But the war is on for the minds of each and every one of us because the mind is generally not ready or willing to relinquish what has already long been programmed into it. Therefore we must be careful to read exactly what is written and cut off the former things which we have received from men so as to hear what the Scripture actually states to be the Truth. This is likewise true in this case which was why I took the opportunity when I saw it arise because it brings about a good example of how we have all been indoctrinated through the teachings of so-called scholars, church fathers, commentaries, and teachings of men. Not that this is meant to be at your expense but simply to make the point because there is not a single place anywhere that I know of where you will find anyone else to show you what I say here. Where have you ever seen what follows in any of the commentaries of men? Search high and low and you will not find this anywhere that I know of yet it is plain as day if you pay close attention. The whole point is that all of the men of stature, all of the men of renown, all of the well respected commentators who have written commentaries concerning the following are in error: at least every one of them I have ever read.

    Exodus 23:20 Septuagint
    20 Καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν
    μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ἵνα φυλάξῃ σε ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ, ὅπως εἰσαγάγῃ σε εἰς τὴν γῆν, ἣν ἡτοίμασά σοι.

    Matthew 11:10 Westcott and Hort 1881
    10 οὗτός ἐστιν περὶ οὗ γέγραπται Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν
    μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ὃς κατασκευάσει τὴν ὁδόν σου ἔμπροσθέν σου.

    Malachi 3:1 Septuagint
    ΙΔΟΥ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν
    μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ Κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει Κύριος παντοκράτωρ.

    These two statements are identical:

    Exodus 23:20a Septuagint ~ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

    Matthew 11:10b W/H 1881 ~ Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν
    μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

    The statement from Mal'akiy 3:1a-b is not the same:

    Malachi 3:1a-b Septuagint ~
    ΙΔΟΥ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν
    μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου,

    Here it is in English:

    Exodus 23:20 KJV
    20. Behold, I send
    an [Septuagint reads "μου" ~ "mine"] Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
    21. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him.
    22. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
    23. For
    mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

    Matthew 11:10 KJV
    10. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send
    my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

    Malachi 3:1 KJV
    1. Behold, I will send
    my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

    Matthew 11:10b duplicates Exodus 23:20a word for word as if it was lifted straight from the Septuagint.
    And "THEE-THINE" [σου] and "ME-MINE" [μου] are NOT the same no matter what the language!

    However Malakiy 3:1 includes also the Malak-Brit Messenger of the Covenant.
    Therefore the Malak of Exodus 23 is not Miyka'el but rather Yochanan mashiyach Eliyahu, (Gabriy'el).
    Gabriy'el is he that stands in the Presence of the Most High as he states in 1 Kings 17:1 and Luke 1:19.
    Eliyahu is the Spirit of the Prophets up to Yochanan the Immerser with the mashiyach-anointing of Eliyahu.

    Miyka'el Nagiyd Brit informs us of this when he quotes Shemot-Exodus 23 in Mattityahu 11:10.
    The same Spirit that YHWH placed upon Moshe was likewise upon Yochanan.
    Moshe prophesied of both mashiyach Yochanan Eliyahu and Yeshua Mowshiya` . . .

    And David lamented with this lamentation over Sha'ul, and over Yhonathan his son, and he bade teach the sons of Yhudah the song of the bow; behold, it is written in the Book of the Upright. The Tsebiy of Yisrael is slain upon thy high places: O how the gibborim are fallen!

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by statikos toxon
    The same Spirit that YHWH placed upon Moshe was likewise upon Yochanan.
    Moshe prophesied of both mashiyach Yochanan Eliyahu and Yeshua Mowshiya` . . .
    Toxin,

    Lock onto those your last words qouted above, before you proclaimed yourself pulverized in one final hebrew word.

    The spirit given Moshe is the spirit of/from the Christ says Kefa.

    Yet this is the spirit of/from Yaweh.

    You have persisted hanging yourself with your own words without realizing it.


    As for the use of one or the other word for one in Koiné???
    ...neither of them are equivalent to the Hebrew words they are meant to be synonymous with.
    So what do you do?
    You blow the reality off for one of your own delusions
    based on this very misunderstanding,
    then run with that instead.


    You have continued using (predominantly) Roman Catholic and/or that which has been extremely influenced in the Græco-Romanized mindset as your proof sources, such as: Westcott and Hort, Strong's, and the LXX.

    These may (or may not) be fine as secondary sources, so long as they do not contradict the actual meaning; however, you tend to use them to do just this, you heretic.

    ...and calling you a heretic promoting your own heresies (which are nothing new under the sun), have little to do with it being because of what Timmy thinks about the doctrines of/from devils you claim to be yours as well. The Biblical record, as well as relative world history undeniably categorically places both of you--(statikos toxin, and the Tweedle Dum Twig DavidiaM)--as being heretics. Your words are lies against the truth and you both are liars.

    Neither of you see that what you say creates conflict and division not only with others, but in your own consciousness.
    You shall never get any further than your falsehoods.
    Rather, Elohim sends you stronger delusions to insure your damnation.
    Instead of examining yourselves, you mock what you do not understand.
    Why?
    You both lie against The Truth, and love these lies instead.


    When the text proving Yeshua/Yaweh is always Forever I Am comes complete to present, you shall be shown for the fools you two really are...and will probably still deny the truth with more multitudes of words proving to everyone else reading, just how stupid impetuous arrogant blasphemy can really portray itself, given ample leash.

    We own your base, and the dakk@ is already yours though you will prolly never be capable enough to even admit, much less confess this fact...which brings into question how many hat sizes too small is anything to fit on such huge heads???

    ...and remember, he who laughs first...cries in the end...yada yada yada...



    The Timmy
    Last edited by Timmy; 06-13-2014 at 07:32 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Toxin,

    Lock onto those your last words qouted above, before you proclaimed yourself pulverized in one final hebrew word.

    The spirit given Moshe is the spirit of/from the Christ says Kefa.

    Yet this is the spirit of/from Yaweh.

    You have persisted hanging yourself with your own words without realizing it.


    As for the use of one or the other word for one in Koiné???
    ...neither of them are equivalent to the Hebrew words they are meant to be synonymous with.
    So what do you do?
    You blow the reality off for one of your own delusions
    based on this very misunderstanding,
    then run with that instead.


    You have continued using (predominantly) Roman Catholic and/or that which has been extremely influenced in the Græco-Romanized mindset as your proof sources, such as: Westcott and Hort, Strong's, and the LXX.

    These may (or may not) be fine as secondary sources, so long as they do not contradict the actual meaning; however, you tend to use them to do just this, you heretic.

    ...and calling you a heretic promoting your own heresies (which are nothing new under the sun), have little to do with it being because of what Timmy thinks about the doctrines of/from devils you claim to be yours as well. The Biblical record, as well as relative world history undeniably categorically places both of you--(statikos toxin, and the Tweedle Dum Twig DavidiaM)--as being heretics. Your words are lies against the truth and you both are liars.

    Neither of you see that what you say creates conflict and division not only with others, but in your own consciousness.
    You shall never get any further than your falsehoods.
    Rather, Elohim sends you stronger delusions to insure your damnation.
    Instead of examining yourselves, you mock what you do not understand.
    Why?
    You both lie against The Truth, and love these lies instead.


    When the text proving Yeshua/Yaweh is always Forever I Am comes complete to present, you shall be shown for the fools you two really are...and will probably still deny the truth with more multitudes of words proving to everyone else reading, just how stupid impetuous arrogant blasphemy can really portray itself, given ample leash.

    We own your base, and the dakk@ is already yours though you will prolly never be capable enough to even admit, much less confess this fact...which brings into question how many hat sizes too small is anything to fit on such huge heads???

    ...and remember, he who laughs first...cries in the end...yada yada yada...



    The Timmy

    My Father saves those of a crushed heart, (Psalm 34:18, Psalm 90:3, Isaiah 57:15) and everyone having read what has transpired between you and I knows that you do not know me from Adam. Neither do you know my Father or you would not be accusing me of holding the doctrines of devils. That is indeed blasphemy ya-know, ya-know, ya-know? When you state so emphatically that I hold the doctrines of devils you are saying that the Master of my house is Beelzebub. The talmid is not above his master, nor the servant above his ruler. It is enough for the talmid that he be as his master; and the servant as his ruler. If they have called the Master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? So when they said that the works of Yeshua were done by the power of Beelzebub they were calling his Father the ruler of devils and blaspheming the Spirit Holy just as you likewise do now because the heavenly Father is the ultimate-absolute Ruler and Master of my little house.

    As for he who laughs, ridicules, and mocks first it was not me but you. Anyone having been reading the discourse between you and I knows that I asked of you two simple questions in my very first words to you and presented them as politely as I knew how to do. So who is he that mocked, ridiculed, and took the first swipe at his brother? It was not me but clearly you because you had no answers for my two simple little questions, just as you continue to have no answers for anything else put to you, just as it is clearly shown here again in this thread. So you made the judgment immediately after my first words to you that I was not your brother and therefore open season for you and your old time prophet styled character assassination "techniques", (as your comrade in arms said previously above herein). The only things I have found you to have in your "arsenal" are accusations and put-downs designed for one thing only and that is character assassination. Again, for the third time, these were my first words to you from the Mesiras Nephesh thread:


    Quote Originally Posted by toxon View Post
    Hi Charisma,
    Since you are free to answer for the Timmy as one I hope you do not mind a response to you two as one.

    Again, these are my first words to Timmy:

    Quote Originally Posted by toxon View Post
    Originally Posted by Timmy
    "My body has been changed several times because i believe in Jesus being God come in the form of a man, and worshipping Him as He is Yaweh."

    Hi Timmy, how do you understand the following statement from Isaiah?

    Isaiah 63:15-19 Restored Name KJV (http://yahushua.net/scriptures/isa63.htm)
    63:15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?
    63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O YHWH, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
    63:17 O YHWH, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
    63:18 The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary.
    63:19 We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name.


    And how do you explain the obvious discrepancies such as the following?

    John 14:27-31 KJV
    27. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
    28. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
    29. And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
    30. Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
    31. But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

    This is the high minded mud slinging response of "the Timmy" whom you as one agreed with:


    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    You might have already bitten off more than you can chew, as i have placed the scandalon against what you and David seem to miss completely already about this site. You may be better off reading much of what is on record here by the Timmy before getting confrontive. There is also much that has been left unsaid for people who wish to take the bait...and you already appear to be attempting to swallow it whole.


    What discrepancies?

    It may also be suggested you might pay better attention to detail, and do not fail to account for corroboration with other associated texts.


    So, please point out these discrepancies you say are so obvious. Might it be added(?) that whatever you are referring to, they might seem like discrepancies to you because you and i do not walk in the same paradigm?(So state what your perceptual basis is behind the claim to that you are assuming to be such "obvious discrepancies"?

    If it is about the difference of Peace and Grace compared with Judgment, these are only two sides to one coin...kind of like you thinking Romans 5.14 breaks down becausebof the sin of Adamah??? It does not.
    [sub]The Hebrew word for blessing is the exact same word for cursing, for one example.
    (You misunderstand doing and results for individual being. This convolutes your understanding what this and the rest of Romans 5 relates.)[/b]

    I do not really have all that much time to doddle here presently, but i will get back to you when ameniable. (A deadline must be met by next week Monday (but an IPO may open for a stint NTL), and most everything is going to have to play second fiddle, and the web gets third place, so until whenever then comes, so you can give yourself until at least Sunday night before spouting off some more...and please consider what you are told in direct relation to Scripture provided.

    Timmy
    At this point "the Timmy" does not know me from Adam and those are the first words spoken between us. If the two of you as one cannot handle mud on your faces then perhaps you should not be slinging mud at people whom you have never met or spoken to before this time. It really is common sense, common decency, and common courtesy, something the two of you as one have proven you do not have. No matter how much you claim to know Yeshua or have the Holy Spirit you do not know him or the Father if you think that this is the proper way to treat people who disagree with your theology, (and this post from "the Timmy" was mild in comparison to his more typically vile rantings which you also have been clearly in agreement with). Sorry but I have no tolerance for people with murder in their hearts claiming to be "christians" and giving the Master a bad name. It is because of you and your hedonistic genos-kind that the whole world lies in wickedness.
    And now you still have no legitimate response for anything that has been said in this thread so you revert to the only thing you know to do, which is murder-death-kill, and your own vile words will come back down upon your own mortally wounded head, (be sure that your sins will come back from the dry-arid places and find you out). All of your vile spewing is simply more evidence of your opening the mouth of the well of the abyss with your own keys, which all of us are given: yet it is only your own sun and your own air which are filled with thick black smoke like the smoke of the great furnace of Egypt. Yea, when the Timmy opens his mouth the sun and the air about him are darkened with thick black smoke; and from the smoke come forth the legions of the locusts of his false doctrines.

    Dear Charisma,
    Perhaps it is indeed better for you to answer for the Timmy!
    As everyone may clearly see he only serves to help subvert your foundations.
    Last edited by toxon; 06-14-2014 at 12:11 AM.

    And David lamented with this lamentation over Sha'ul, and over Yhonathan his son, and he bade teach the sons of Yhudah the song of the bow; behold, it is written in the Book of the Upright. The Tsebiy of Yisrael is slain upon thy high places: O how the gibborim are fallen!

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    Where have you gone David M? I address this post to you since it appears that Charisma is not around and of course the Timmy cares nothing for these things as he clearly accuses me of being a liar in his most recent post herein. So how can I be sure of my understanding of Hebrews 1:6 as posted above? How do I know for a fact that what I posted is the truth? Did I have the Holy Spirit whisper it in my ear and give me tingly feelings all over my body and psyche like Charisma and Timmy say they get when something is revealed to them? That may be the case sometimes but it is only after the Truth has been discovered in the written Word.

    Quote Originally Posted by toxon View Post
    And what of the Prototokos-Firstborn found in Hebrews 1:6? Does it refer to Yisrael or Yeshua or both? And should "oikoumene" be understood as the "world" as widely translated or does it rather refer to the Land, (of Yisrael)? Or do you even think these things matter? Or have you ever even thought to ask such questions?

    Hebrews 1:1-6
    1. Elohim, having spoken to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways of old time;
    2. hath in these last days spoken to us in his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he acted out the aionas-ages,
    3. who being the radiant off-flash of the glory and character of the essence of him, bearing both all of the remati-spoken-words and the dunameos-power of him, a cleansing of sins having made, was seated at the right of the Majesty on high:
    4. having become so much better than the messengers; for as much as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they.
    5. For unto which of the messengers said he ever, "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee"? And again, "I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son"?
    6. Moreover when he leads the prototokos-firstborn, (Yisrael ~ Shemot-Exodus 4:22) anew-again into the land, (of Yisrael) he says: "And let all the messengers of Elohim do obeisance unto him."


    And every messenger sent to Yisrael after Moshe indeed writes and speaks of Messiah.
    And what then if every English translation of the above is found to be in error?
    In fact EVERY English translation of Hebrews 1:6 is indeed full of error. Neither are there any commentaries which adequately understand the passage. Some translations even go so far as to translate "oikoumenen" as "the universe", (saying when God brought his first begotten "into the universe"). Most so-called scholars and their fancy commentaries cannot even agree on why the word "palin" (anew-again) is employed in the text with some of them even suggesting that this passage speaks of the second advent of Messiah instead of the first. Please pay close attention here David as this is not a "yada, yada, yada" post. Don't know if there is a word count limit on replies but I suppose I will find out here and now.

    Exodus 4:22 Restored Name KJV (Masoretic Text)
    4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

    http://yahushua.net/scriptures/ex4.htm

    Exodus 4:22 Brenton Septuagint Translation
    22. And thou shalt say to Pharao, These things saith the Lord, Israel is my first-born.

    http://biblehub.com/sep/exodus/4.htm

    Exodus 4:22 Septuagint
    4:22 συ δε ερεις τω φαραω ταδε λεγει κυριος υιος πρωτοτοκος μου ισραηλ

    http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/02_004.htm

    Exodus 4:22 Septuagint Literal Rendering
    22. Moreover you shall say unto Pharaoh: Thus says [YHWH] Kurios, [the] υιος-huios-son πρωτοτοκος-prototokos-firstborn μου-of me [is] ισραηλ-Yisrael.

    Hebrews 1:6 Westcott-Hort 1881
    1:6 ὅταν δὲ πάλιν εἰσαγάγῃ τὸν πρωτότοκον εἰς τὴν οἰκουμένην, λέγει Καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ.

    http://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/1-6.htm

    Hebrews 1:6 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
    6. Hotan de palin eisagage ton prototokon eis ten oikoumenen, legei, "Kai proskunesatosan auto pantes angeloi Theou."

    Hebrews 1:6 Vertical Strong's Numbers with Short Definitions
    6.
    |3752| hotan - when
    |1161| de - and/but/moreover
    |3825| palin - anew, (by repetition) - again
    |1521| eisago - to lead - [eisagage] - he brings
    |3588| ho - definite article - [ton] - the
    |4416| prototokos - firstborn - [prototokon] - firstborn
    |1519| eis - to/for/in/into
    |3588| ho - definite article - [ten] - the
    |3625| oikoumene - habitable land -or- habitable world - [oikoumenen] - land
    |3004| lego - to say - [legei] - He says,
    |2532| kai - and
    |4352| proskuneo - to bow - do obeisance - [proskunesatosan] - let bow unto
    |0846| autos - he/she/they/them - [auto] - him
    |3956| pas - all - [pantes] - all of the
    |0032| aggelos - messenger/angel/prophet/preacher - [angeloi] - messengers
    |2316| Theos - [Theou] - 'Elohim - God

    The translators have basically two choices when it comes to the meaning of oikoumene. I only quote the Original Strong's Definition here because it is short and there is no need to post all of the inflections and tenses just to understand the meaning of the word, (which I often do and "the Timmy" likes to use to misrepresent me because he misunderstands or ignores this fact). In fact the first implied meaning is not "world", (as in kosmos) but rather LAND as an habitable land, territory, or empire.

    Original Strong's Ref. #3625
    Romanized oikoumene
    Pronounced oy-kou-men'-ay
    feminine participle present passive of GSN3611 (as noun, by implication of GSN1093); land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specifically, the Roman empire:
    KJV--earth, world.

    So how do I know my understanding of Hebrews 1:6 is the correct one? Do not let all of the fancy Greek and definitions take away from the fact that these things, just as most everything Scripture, come directly from the text and its surrounding context. The quote from Hebrews 1:6 just so happens to have been left out of the Masoretic Text but is plain as day in the Septuagint. It is found in the same passage that I quoted three or four times in the other thread, Mesiras Nephesh, which passage was quoted to the various nonbelievers in that thread, (if they are going to call me a nonbeliever and a liar then do I not have the right to prove them wrong? and if they are wrong then who is in fact the nonbeliever?). So we read it from the English translation of the Septuagint and hopefully from this simple straightforward reading the true meaning of what Hebrews 1:6 states will become clear as daylight.

    YESHUA IS THE RIGHT HAND OF ELOHIM:

    Deuteronomy 32 Brenton Septuagint
    1. Attend, O heaven, and I will speak; and let the earth hear the words out of my mouth.
    2. Let my speech be looked for as the rain, and my words come down as dew, as the shower upon the herbage, and as snow upon the grass.
    3. For I have called on the name of the Lord: assign ye greatness to our God.
    4. As for God, his works are true, and all his ways are judgment: God is faithful, and there is no unrighteousness in him; just and holy is the Lord.
    5. They have sinned, not pleasing him; spotted children, a froward and perverse generation.
    6. Do ye thus recompense the Lord? is the people thus foolish and unwise? did not he himself thy father purchase thee, and make thee, and form thee?
    7. Remember the days of old, consider the years for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee.
    8. When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God.
    9. And his people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of his inheritance.
    10. He maintained him in the wilderness, in burning thirst and a dry land: he led him about and instructed him, and kept him as the apple of an eye.
    11. As an eagle would watch over his brood, and yearns over his young, receives them having spread his wings, and takes them up on his back:
    12. the Lord alone led them, there was no strange god with them.
    13. He brought them up on the strength of the land; he fed them with the fruits of the fields; they sucked honey out of the rock, and oil out of the solid rock.
    14. Butter of cows, and milk of sheep, with the fat of lambs and rams, of calves and kids, with fat of kidneys of wheat; and he drank wine, the blood of the grape.
    15. So Jacob ate and was filled, and the beloved one kicked; he grew fat, he became thick and broad: then he forsook the God that made him, and departed from God his Saviour.
    16. They provoked me to anger with strange gods; with their abominations they bitterly angered me.
    17. They sacrificed to devils, and not to God; to gods whom they knew not: new and fresh gods came in, whom their fathers knew not.
    18. Thou hast forsaken God that begot thee, and forgotten God who feeds thee.
    19. And the Lord saw, and was jealous; and was provoked by the anger of his sons and daughters,
    20. and said, I will turn away my face from them, and will show what shall happen to them in the last days; for it is a perverse generation, sons in whom is no faith.
    21. They have provoked me to jealousy with that which is not God, they have exasperated me with their idols; and I will provoke them to jealousy with them that are no nation, I will anger them with a nation void of understanding.
    22. For a fire has been kindled out of my wrath, it shall burn to hell below; it shall devour the land, and the fruits of it; it shall set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
    23. I will gather evils upon them, and will fight with my weapons against them.
    24. They shall be consumed with hunger and the devouring of birds, and there shall be irremediable destruction: I will send forth against them the teeth of wild beasts, with the rage of serpents creeping on the ground.
    25. Without, the sword shall bereave them of children, and terror shall issue out of the secret chambers; the young man shall perish with the virgin, the suckling with him who has grown old.
    26. I said, I will scatter them, and I will cause their memorial to cease from among men.
    27. Were it not for the wrath of the enemy, lest they should live long, lest their enemies should combine against them; lest they should say, Our own high arm, and not the Lord, has done all these things.
    28. It is a nation that has lost counsel, neither is there understanding in them.
    29. They had not sense to understand: let them reserve these things against the time to come.
    30. How should one pursue a thousand, and two rout tens of thousands, if God had not sold them, and the Lord delivered them up?
    31. For their gods are not as our God, but our enemies are void of understanding.
    32. For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and their vine-branch of Gomorrha: their grape is a grape of gall, their cluster is one of bitterness.
    33. Their wine is the rage of serpents, and the incurable rage of asps.
    34. Lo! are not these things stored up by me, and sealed among my treasures?
    35. In the day of vengeance I will recompense, whensoever their foot shall be tripped up; for the day of their destruction is near to them, and the judgments at hand are close upon you.
    36. For the Lord shall judge his people, and shall be comforted over his servants; for he saw that they were utterly weakened, and failed in the hostile invasion, and were become feeble:
    37. and the Lord said, Where are their gods on whom they trusted?
    38. the fat of whose sacrifices ye ate, and ye drank the wine of their drink-offerings? let them arise and help you, and be your protectors.
    39. Behold, behold that I am he, and there is no god beside me: I kill, and I will make to live: I will smite, and I will heal; and there is none who shall deliver out of my hands.
    40. For I will lift up my hand to heaven, and swear by my right hand, and I will say, I live for ever.
    41. For I will sharpen my sword like lightning, and my hand shall take hold of judgment; and I will render judgment to my enemies, and will recompense them that hate me.
    42. I will make my weapons drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh, it shall glut itself with the blood of the wounded, and from the captivity of the heads of their enemies that rule over them.
    43. Rejoice, ye heavens, with him,
    and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge [atone] the land of his people.
    43. εὐφράνθητε, οὐρανοί, ἅμα αὐτῷ,
    καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι Θεοῦ· εὐφράνθητε, ἔθνη μετὰ τοῦ λαοῦ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐνισχυσάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες υἱοὶ Θεοῦ· ὅτι τὸ αἷμα τῶν υἱῶν αὐτοῦ ἐκδικᾶται, καὶ ἐκδικήσει καὶ ἀνταποδώσει δίκην τοῖς ἐχθροῖς καὶ τοῖς μισοῦσιν ἀνταποδώσει, καὶ ἐκκαθαριεῖ Κύριος τὴν γῆν τοῦ λαοῦ αὐτοῦ.
    44. And Moses wrote this song in that day, and taught it to the children of Israel; and Moses went in and spoke all the words of this law in the ears of the people, he and Joshua the son of Naue.
    45. And Moses finished speaking to all Israel.
    46. And he said to them, Take heed with your heart to all these words, which I testify to you this day, which ye shall command your sons, to observe and do all the words of this law.
    47. For this is no vain word to you; for it is your life, and because of this word ye shall live long upon the land, into which ye go over Jordan to inherit it.
    48. And the Lord spoke to Moses in this day, saying,
    49. Go up to the mount Abarim, this mountain Nabau which is in the land of Moab over against Jericho, and behold the land of Chanaan, which I give to the sons of Israel:
    50. and die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be added to thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Or, and was added to his people.
    51. Because ye disobeyed my word among the children of Israel, at the waters of strife of Cades in the wilderness of Sin; because ye sanctified me not among the sons of Israel.
    52. Thou shalt see the land before thee, but thou shalt not enter into it.

    http://biblehub.com/sep/deuteronomy/32.htm

    This is the day wherein YHWH begins to reveal that his Son is his right hand, his right arm, his suffering servant who is to come: whom he will lift up and exalt at Golgotha, and swear that He, YHWH the Father, lives forever. Yeshua is likewise the Sword of YHWH; he is the right arm or "shoulder", (which is the best portion of the sacrificial offerings) he is the right hand, (which is why he sat down at the right hand of Elohim after he was resurrected) and he is all the supernal and spiritual "weapons of war" of YHWH the Father, (nothing conquers love). This is also the day wherein Moshe was commanded to go up into mount Nebo of the Abarim-crossings and die. Therefore it is the fortieth year of the wilderness sojourn of the children of Yisrael. After mourning the death of Moshe they would indeed be lead-brought back-anew-again into the LAND. That is why "palin" is found in Hebrews 1:6 because Yisrael is the prototokos-firstborn and it was at this time that the sojourn in Egypt and then the forty years in the desert were over. They we about to be brought anew-again into the home-Land of Yisrael.

    Hebrews 1:6b
    Καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ

    Deuteronomy 32:43b
    καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι Θεοῦ

    Hebrews 1:6 ~ Moreover when he leads the prototokos-firstborn, (Yisrael) anew-again into the land, (of Yisrael) he says: "And let all the messengers of Elohim do obeisance unto him."


    Every single English translation is corrupted with the doctrines of carnal men. If they had a fifty-fifty chance and still guessed wrong despite the known quote coming word for word directly from the Septuagint, (which most already outright reject simply because of their dogma) then certainly none of them were/are lead by the Holy Spirit of our heavenly Father. Likewise for the Timmy, who proudly boasts once again that he "owns our base", he owns nothing and even what little he has is being taken from him as we speak, (but not by me or because of me).

    Enjoy, David M, and Shalom-Peace in Yeshua the Kohen Gadol and right hand of the Father YHWH!


    And David lamented with this lamentation over Sha'ul, and over Yhonathan his son, and he bade teach the sons of Yhudah the song of the bow; behold, it is written in the Book of the Upright. The Tsebiy of Yisrael is slain upon thy high places: O how the gibborim are fallen!

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by toxon View Post
    Where have you gone David M?
    I have been away from home for 10 days. I managed to get internet access occasionally. I guessed you did not see my reply to Charisma in the other thread where this was known. Anyway, I have much to catch up on now that I am home including your posts to Timmy and Charisma. I have to read your post later. I logged on briefly and noticed your question in the top spot in the sidebar.
    I will see what replies I need to respond to a little later. As for now, I have no idea how much there is to catch up on. Like you, I ended my contributions to the other thread, since it had run its course.


    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    ...and calling you a heretic promoting your own heresies (which are nothing new under the sun), have little to do with it being because of what Timmy thinks about the doctrines of/from devils you claim to be yours as well. The Biblical record, as well as relative world history undeniably categorically places both of you--(statikos toxin, and the Tweedle Dum Twig DavidiaM)--as being heretics. Your words are lies against the truth and you both are liars.

    Once upon the twinkling of a twilight there is an oasis by the desert having been called Amphodon. One day the Great King, (who owns all of the Land thereof) passes by so as to inspect his garden oasis in the desert. As he approaches the oasis he finds two poor beggars having wandered in from the desert; neither of which have yet the strength left in him to make it so far as the fountain of the water of life which flows in the midst thereof. And having collapsed they two lay there by the wayside, at the gate of Amphodon, parched from the scorching desert sun, and dying off slowly. And when King Egoeimiho-On sees them by the way dying he rushes near and says to them: I AM LIFE, and every part of me LIVES. I will tell you what I will do: I will cut off mine arm and give it you for food; eat all of it this night, leave nothing till the morning come! But know that in my right arm is also LIFE although I cut him off for you. He will sleep until about this time tomorrow at twilight and then he will awaken again to LIFE ETERNAL. If you indeed eat all of him then you too will LIVE because he LIVES. Do as I say and LIVE! So the Great King Egoeimiho-On cuts off his own right arm and gives it them for to completely consume; and commands them to eat all of it, leaving nothing till the morning come, and goes up from they two. Now of the two dying beggars one was foolish and the other was wise, and they two began to eat: and the first taste thereof is like wafers made with honey, as sweet as honey to the mouth, and they two immediately begin to revive upon the very first morsel. But on the second taste a bitterness begins to enter into the belly of they two. So the one foolish beggar says to his fellow: My belly is full enough already and I feel so full of life; I need not eat more, and will now go off to drink from the water fountain. But I will tell you what I am going to do with my portion of this mighty Arm: what remains I will stand upon a stake and this will be my God because truly has it saved me! And if it comes to life tomorrow then I will surely know it is my God; and so shall I worship him forever. But the one wise beggar likewise himself drinks from the Fountain of Life, in secret, doing all that the Great King commands him to do: eating all of his portion of the arm that night, leaving nothing till the morning come; and the next day he falls on asleep and rests. And when the next evening comes, at twilight, the Great King -TheOn- calls for his mighty Arm to return back to himself, (and it never returns to him void) but the foolish beggar is in the midst of worshiping the mighty Arm when it bursts into a flaming fire, completely consumes, and the smoke thereof rises up into heaven like the sweet smelling savour of a holy sacrifice unto the Most High God. So the foolish beggar runs quickly to awaken his fellow so as to tell him what has happened with the holy Arm but his friend is likewise nowhere to be found. No one on earth is really quite sure what happens to the wise son but the foolish and double blind beggar BarTimaeus son of Timaeus starts his own new religion and yada, yada, yada, the podiums, pedestals, and steeples of his sheeples are now strewn across the land in every brothel of every harlot city.





    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I have been away from home for 10 days. I managed to get internet access occasionally. I guessed you did not see my reply to Charisma in the other thread where this was known. Anyway, I have much to catch up on now that I am home including your posts to Timmy and Charisma. I have to read your post later. I logged on briefly and noticed your question in the top spot in the sidebar.
    I will see what replies I need to respond to a little later. As for now, I have no idea how much there is to catch up on. Like you, I ended my contributions to the other thread, since it had run its course.


    David
    . . . no hurries, no worries, take your time . . .
    Last edited by toxon; 06-14-2014 at 05:38 AM.

    And David lamented with this lamentation over Sha'ul, and over Yhonathan his son, and he bade teach the sons of Yhudah the song of the bow; behold, it is written in the Book of the Upright. The Tsebiy of Yisrael is slain upon thy high places: O how the gibborim are fallen!

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    Quote Originally Posted by toxon View Post
    My Father saves those of a crushed heart, (Psalm 34:18, Psalm 90:3, Isaiah 57:15) and everyone having read what has transpired between you and I knows that you do not know me from Adam. Neither do you know my Father or you would not be accusing me of holding the doctrines of devils. That is indeed blasphemy ya-know, ya-know, ya-know? When you state so emphatically that I hold the doctrines of devils you are saying that the Master of my house is Beelzebub. The talmid is not above his master, nor the servant above his ruler. It is enough for the talmid that he be as his master; and the servant as his ruler. If they have called the Master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? So when they said that the works of Yeshua were done by the power of Beelzebub they were calling his Father the ruler of devils and blaspheming the Spirit Holy just as you likewise do now because the heavenly Father is the ultimate-absolute Ruler and Master of my little house.
    You wantedan answer to a question
    you were not rilly specific about,
    expecting allusion to speak for you?

    Granted, i was not trying hard to see what you were saying
    because you were not trying to clarify your thoughts and intents...

    ...having at that point not read all the previous things you wrote,
    Timmy saw a disconnect,
    in that at times you literalize what are Hebraisms,
    and at other times fail to keep consistent (if and) when you do recognize them...
    ...yet seeing you have a bit of learning concerning the Hebrew ways,
    the Timmy pushed your buttons to see how far that goes
    ...and you got all in a dither.

    So, me thinks that the statikos warped-stick (aka: toxon) is definitely not Israeli by birth;
    because our lineage does talk with one another
    --even at times extremely gruff with far more extreme word-play than either you or Dawid have seen--
    and remain close in philos and agapeo.

    (We do not consider our reasoning or unreasoning to seperate us as the goyim do,
    yet this is what you do;
    and rather than seeking to clarify yourself
    you mystify about yourself and others
    so much the more.
    (That is just plain old stupid.)



    Ok, toxon, let's see what you do with this:

    You seem to easily enough have a bit of know about name bar/ben/beni name, so how could this not be true of abba/avi/avinu as well?
    The above is your one answer somewhat encompassing both questions. Tell me what you think about this and why. The when there is time here, Timy can address you more fully.

    ...but also note now, the why behind my own words saying that [COLOR="#FF0000"]"...i see no discrepancies..."/COLOR], as well as the reason it was assumed you were wanting commentary concerning the situation, and not the one word specific Hebraism: father.


    As for he who laughs, ridicules, and mocks first it was not me but you.
    Oh really? What is a failure to communicate clearly, if not a looking down on others who do not know you, yet thinking that not speaking clearly will only prove to you how exo/esoteric you think you are?

    Anyone having been reading the discourse between you and I knows that I asked of you two simple questions in my very first words to you and presented them as politely as I knew how to do. So who is he that mocked, ridiculed, and took the first swipe at his brother?
    Is that what younthink of your own P.P.™ as well, or does that through your own wise eyes only apply to others?

    Man, you do need a course in HR! You come off as some authority and prove yourself otherwise. You do not speak plainly and then have the audacity to assume it is everyone else who ks ignorant?

    As previously stated, you really need to get a grip on what communication is actually all about.

    Furthermore, Yeshua is the life breath revelation of all mysterion. Yet, the way you present yourself in this Acropolis, you deliberately make others outsiders with your half-baked understanding declaring what you think you know as though it were the ultimatum...and even that takes a side seat to your blathering on with words you think you know and assuming others don't.

    GET A GRIP ON YOURSELF. DO YOU ACTUALLY SURMISE YOURSELF WISER BECAUSE YOU FAIL RO CLEARLY COMMUNICATE?

    It was not me but clearly you because you had no answers for my two simple little questions, just as you continue to have no answers for anything else put to you, just as it is clearly shown here again in this thread. So you made the judgment immediately after my first words to you that I was not your brother and therefore open season for you and your old time prophet styled character assassination "techniques", (as your comrade in arms said previously above herein). The only things I have found you to have in your "arsenal" are accusations and put-downs designed for one thing only and that is character assassination. Again, for the third time, these were my first words to you from the Mesiras Nephesh thread:
    If you mistake certain discretion and discernment applied toward your apalling lack of clarity as judgement against you, you have issues other than what any forum can helpyou with. Character assasination? or is it just making more extreme what little you have misrepresented about yourself and the Scriptures?
    ...and you have yet to respond to how the spirit of Yeshua (the Christ) is the same spirit as Yaweh, toxin!




    And now you still have no legitimate response for anything that has been said in this thread so you revert to the only thing you know to do, which is murder-death-kill, and your own vile words will come back down upon your own mortally wounded head, (be sure that your sins will come back from the dry-arid places and find you out). All of your vile spewing is simply more evidence of your opening the mouth of the well of the abyss with your own keys, which all of us are given: yet it is only your own sun and your own air which are filled with thick black smoke like the smoke of the great furnace of Egypt. Yea, when the Timmy opens his mouth the sun and the air about him are darkened with thick black smoke; and from the smoke come forth the legions of the locusts of his false doctrines.
    The only one speaking murder and killing is you; but death is another story.

    Yaweh Yeshua has, save for the scars atop it, has completely healed this head...whereas others going through simular such experiences areneither institutionalization cases or vegetables...PRAISE YAH!

    I have the privilige of praying and all prayers being answered, and that is that. I do not have to seek for truth in righteousness because He and i are not just in touch.

    i walk in the forever life-for-life/blood-for-blood Beriyth in Him, of Him, by Him, and for Him: Yaweh Yeshua Eloheinu.

    Something is going to be repeated to you that has been repeated to the Twig DaviaM:

    If you are out for war or blood, you picked the wrong person to spar with.

    This is not about winning.

    Rather, if i or you never existed, what does the Bible clearly reveal irregardless of what supposed hidden meanings anyone contrives.




    You need get out of that head that what you think you know is never enough...and if you cannot rightly apply whatever you claim in the here and now: IN REAL LIFE IS with God verifying His approval via results and further freely given knowledge and wisdom andnunderstandings (without having to search and study), it is merely a mental gymnastics and not the TRUTH FOR LIFE being the hidden treasure only experienced by any who remain in Christ Jesus.


    Timmy

    p.s. i never said anything about any woo woo feeling or sensations verifying anything because they definitely never do.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2014
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    Olam Haba
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    196
    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    You wantedan answer to a question
    you were not rilly specific about,
    expecting allusion to speak for you?

    Granted, i was not trying hard to see what you were saying
    because you were not trying to clarify your thoughts and intents...

    ...having at that point not read all the previous things you wrote,
    Timmy saw a disconnect,
    in that at times you literalize what are Hebraisms,
    and at other times fail to keep consistent (if and) when you do recognize them...
    ...yet seeing you have a bit of learning concerning the Hebrew ways,
    the Timmy pushed your buttons to see how far that goes
    ...and you got all in a dither.

    So, me thinks that the statikos warped-stick (aka: toxon) is definitely not Israeli by birth;
    because our lineage does talk with one another
    --even at times extremely gruff with far more extreme word-play than either you or Dawid have seen--
    and remain close in philos and agapeo.

    (We do not consider our reasoning or unreasoning to seperate us as the goyim do,
    yet this is what you do;
    and rather than seeking to clarify yourself
    you mystify about yourself and others
    so much the more.
    (That is just plain old stupid.)



    Ok, toxon, let's see what you do with this:

    You seem to easily enough have a bit of know about name bar/ben/beni name, so how could this not be true of abba/avi/avinu as well?
    The above is your one answer somewhat encompassing both questions. Tell me what you think about this and why. The when there is time here, Timy can address you more fully.

    ...but also note now, the why behind my own words saying that [COLOR="#FF0000"]"...i see no discrepancies..."/COLOR], as well as the reason it was assumed you were wanting commentary concerning the situation, and not the one word specific Hebraism: father.


    Oh really? What is a failure to communicate clearly, if not a looking down on others who do not know you, yet thinking that not speaking clearly will only prove to you how exo/esoteric you think you are?

    Is that what younthink of your own P.P.™ as well, or does that through your own wise eyes only apply to others?

    Man, you do need a course in HR! You come off as some authority and prove yourself otherwise. You do not speak plainly and then have the audacity to assume it is everyone else who ks ignorant?

    As previously stated, you really need to get a grip on what communication is actually all about.

    Furthermore, Yeshua is the life breath revelation of all mysterion. Yet, the way you present yourself in this Acropolis, you deliberately make others outsiders with your half-baked understanding declaring what you think you know as though it were the ultimatum...and even that takes a side seat to your blathering on with words you think you know and assuming others don't.

    GET A GRIP ON YOURSELF. DO YOU ACTUALLY SURMISE YOURSELF WISER BECAUSE YOU FAIL RO CLEARLY COMMUNICATE?

    If you mistake certain discretion and discernment applied toward your apalling lack of clarity as judgement against you, you have issues other than what any forum can helpyou with. Character assasination? or is it just making more extreme what little you have misrepresented about yourself and the Scriptures?
    ...and you have yet to respond to how the spirit of Yeshua (the Christ) is the same spirit as Yaweh, toxin!




    The only one speaking murder and killing is you; but death is another story.

    Yaweh Yeshua has, save for the scars atop it, has completely healed this head...whereas others going through simular such experiences areneither institutionalization cases or vegetables...PRAISE YAH!

    I have the privilige of praying and all prayers being answered, and that is that. I do not have to seek for truth in righteousness because He and i are not just in touch.

    i walk in the forever life-for-life/blood-for-blood Beriyth in Him, of Him, by Him, and for Him: Yaweh Yeshua Eloheinu.

    Something is going to be repeated to you that has been repeated to the Twig DaviaM:

    If you are out for war or blood, you picked the wrong person to spar with.

    This is not about winning.

    Rather, if i or you never existed, what does the Bible clearly reveal irregardless of what supposed hidden meanings anyone contrives.




    You need get out of that head that what you think you know is never enough...and if you cannot rightly apply whatever you claim in the here and now: IN REAL LIFE IS with God verifying His approval via results and further freely given knowledge and wisdom andnunderstandings (without having to search and study), it is merely a mental gymnastics and not the TRUTH FOR LIFE being the hidden treasure only experienced by any who remain in Christ Jesus.


    Timmy

    p.s. i never said anything about any woo woo feeling or sensations verifying anything because they definitely never do.
    You now want more clarification again? It was already made perfectly clear to you in the other thread when Charisma first asked for clarification. It is all right there before your own eyes in Torah and Prophets. Why should I explain such things to one who calls me a liar and a heretic? I only do so for the purposes of fellow believers who care and are searching for the truth like David. It matters not to me if we disagree on some things so long as we are both willing to learn from each other. I did not start anything with you but rather it was clearly you who opened up with the great Timmy and his man-o'war can-o'worms, bringing forth your own unique style and flavor of killing technique to use against me, just as you use against David or anyone else who disagrees with you because you perceive anyone who disagrees with your heresy as an enemy, (especially if the things they say are true). The Scripture is perfectly clear that YHWH is our heavenly Father and Yeshua likewise makes it perfectly clear that he himself is not our heavenly Father. The fact that you claim "Yeshua is YHWH" reveals that you do not even have a clue when it comes to the true covenant to which you claim to be enjoined. YHWH divorced Yisrael and the ONLY way anyone may partake of his covenant is through repentance first and foremost and then becoming a son, (a very long walk). The first covenant was broken before Moshe even came down from the mountain in the very beginning, (when he broke the first two tablets) because of the idolatrous golden calf incident. The implications are not immediately recognizable but what this means according to Torah is that the covenant after that time concerns SONS and daughters whereas the holy city becomes the "wife" of God. This is why in such passages as the following YHWH calls his people children as opposed to a wife: "Return, O backsliding children, (baniym-sons) says YHWH." This is the Law and it is clearly expounded through HaNavi Yirmeyahu:

    Jeremiah 3:1-25 KJV
    1. They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the Lord.
    2. Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
    3. Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
    4. Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth?
    5. Will he reserve his anger for ever? will he keep it to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and done evil things as thou couldest.
    6. The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
    7. And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
    8. And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of Divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
    9. And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
    10. And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the Lord.
    11. And the Lord said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
    12. Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever.
    13. Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord.
    14. Turn, O backsliding children, [baniym-sons] saith the Lord; for I
    am married [ba`al-Master] unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
    15. And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
    16. And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
    17. At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; [because Yerushalaim becomes the wife] and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
    18. In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
    19. But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.
    20. Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the Lord.
    21. A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the Lord their God.
    22. Return, ye backsliding children, [baniym-sons] and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the Lord our God.
    23. Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the Lord our God is the salvation of Israel.
    24. For shame hath devoured the labour of our fathers from our youth; their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters.
    25. We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the Lord our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God.


    This in fact is the explanation of the true covenant. Would they not from that time call him "My Father"? that is, from the time that the house of Yisrael, (ten tribes) were given a bill of divorcement?

    Jeremiah 3:4 ~ Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, "Abiy"- "My Father, thou art the guide of my youth"?

    Jeremiah 3:19 ~ But I said, How shall I put thee among the baniym-sons, and give thee a pleasant land, the Tsebiy inheritance of the armies of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, "Abiy"- My Father; and shalt not turn away from me.


    This is not some crazy outsider view like the false image you would like to paint over my face but even Rashi agrees with this understanding. It is YOU who do not understand what you read because you have not repented and therefore the vail remains upon your own heart and mind until your heart is turned unto the Father YHWH, (while admitting at the same time that Yeshua is his Son rather than the same person). You do not have a so-called Hebraic mindset as you claim or you would have known these things. You are simply spinning your wheels and digging your own ditch deeper and deeper:

    Rashi's commentary on Jeremiah 3:4 (CJB)
    4. Will you not from this time call me, "My Father, You the Master of my youth."

    Rashi
    Will you not from now: If only you repent of your evil and call me “My Father.” If you do so, will your Lord bear a grudge forever for what you have sinned? Will He keep it to eternity? He will not keep it.
    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true
    Yeshua likewise upholds HaNavi Yirmeyahu and this understanding throughout the Gospel accounts, in all places, worshipping the Father in Spirit and in Truth and praying to the heavenly Father who is clearly not Yeshua himself. After the resurrection Yeshua makes it even more clear, perfectly clear, that he and the Father are still not the same person. He clearly says so in the following passage where he states to Mariam that he ascends to "the Father of him, and the Father of you, and the God of him, and the God of you."

    Yochanan 20:16-17
    16. Yeshua says unto her, "Mariam!" Having converted this one says unto him [in] Hebraisti, "Rabboni!" which is to say, "Master Teacher!"
    17. Yeshua says unto her, "Not do I adhere-light-the-fire: for not yet am I ascended to the Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto the Father of me, and the Father of you; and the Theon-Elohim-God of me, and the Theon-Elohim-God of you."


    Not only are you far outside of the Hebraic or Jewish mindset but in the Jewish mindset you are spewing lashon hara, especially when you accuse someone you do not know of being a liar, and likewise you are actively engaged in, and promoting, avodat zarah.
    Last edited by toxon; 06-15-2014 at 04:36 AM.

    And David lamented with this lamentation over Sha'ul, and over Yhonathan his son, and he bade teach the sons of Yhudah the song of the bow; behold, it is written in the Book of the Upright. The Tsebiy of Yisrael is slain upon thy high places: O how the gibborim are fallen!

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    776
    Hi toxon,

    I have a question from Hebrews 2:9.

    When Jesus tasted death for every man, did He 'taste' it, as in sip a little of it, or did He drink the whole cup, like He told the disciples to do?
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

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