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  1. #1
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    Does God given chances to evil men through rebirth?

    Hi all,

    In this thread I would like to discuss if God give chances for evil men? I will focus on my understanding of Rebirth which maybe a taboo for some Christians. We have noted that God hates evil and will do whatever necessary to get rid of evil. God wanted to recruit righteous people into His Kingdom of Heaven in which there is no place for evil people. The Kingdom of Heaven is like God's country and like every country, they do not want to receive bad elements such as terrorists, criminals, troublemakers etc. to be their citizens. But in the Bible, we see a lot of killings done by God on evil people which give the impression of an evil brutal God contradictory to what He claimed to be merciful, slow to anger, forgiving etc. This is not what it seems to be. If USA goes around the world killing all terrorists, is it a brutal evil country? No, because the US is doing its best to make this world a safer place to live in and also to combat in the name of justice the blatant killings of innocent people. This is exactly what God was and is doing.

    God will give ample warnings to evil people that if they did not repent from their evil ways and do good, they will be destroyed. This was evident as an example before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah when he sent his prophets to warn them of destruction if they did not repent and he also make sure there was not even a single righteous person there before the destruction. If the evil people repent, God will refrain from the threat that he would do. But why must God kills? Well, if somebody does not heed kind advice not to harm himself and others and despite repeated persuasion, the only choice left is to use force including killing in the name of self-defense to prevent him from harming others. Therefore, God killed evil people if His warnings and efforts failed and he has no other choice to prevent evil people from becoming more evil and sinful. Sometimes of course God will caused harm to the evil people, such as causing King Nebuchadnessar to be mad and eat grass etc. to force him from doing evil and sin but if this failed to cause repentance, the only choice left is to kill. Being a just God, the more evil and sins one has the more difficult it is for God to pardon. This is analogous judge giving judgement to an offender, the bigger the offense, the harsher is the punishment.

    Killing is one way in which God stop evil people from doing more evil and sin so that he can pardon them by giving them another or more chance through rebirth. This is the hallmark of being a Merciful God giving chance after chance. The ancient people believe that death is a road to reincarnation. Therefore when God ordered the Israelites to kill evil and sinful people without mercy, I believe that the Israelites understood that the killings will stop the evil sinful people from further sinning so that God could give them another chance through rebirth and reincarnation.

    Jesus said, "Do not fear people who can destroy the body but not the soul but fear God who can destroy both body and soul in Hell". What Jesus means is that people can only destroy the body which can be easily resurrected or given rebirth by God, whereas God can destroy both body and soul in Hell which means once the soul is destroyed there is no way of rebirth or resurrection. Overall, many religions in the world believe in rebirth and reincarnations such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism. So were the ancient Greek, Jews, Egyptian, Romans etc. It is time that Christianity review its stand on Rebirth and Reincarnation. There are also real life testimonies of past life which are unrefutable:

    http://listverse.com/2013/10/21/10-i...reincarnation/

    See wiki on Reincarnation:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation

    There are some passages in the Bible which suggest rebirth and reincarnation:

    http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html

    Old Testament Accounts

    First, let us consider texts from the Old Testament. In narrating his call to prophethood, Jeremiah stated:

    Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you; and before you were born I consecrated you, and I appointed you a prophet to the nations" (Jeremiah 1:45).

    This passage clearly suggests that Jeremiah existed in a non-earthly part of Creation before he was conceived. This is to say that pre-existence is acknowledged by the Scriptures and that human beings do not come into existence only at birth. If we existed before birth, does that period of existence include, or can it include, a time on earth? Why not?

    The Man Born Blind

    Let us now move on to some New Testament passages relevant to reincarnation. We will first discuss the account of the healing of the man who was blind from birth (John, Chapter 9). The blind man, it would appear, often sat by the roadside begging. As Jesus and his disciples passed by him, a question agitated the minds of the disciples. And so they asked:

    Rabbi, who sinned, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? (John 9:2).

    We should reflect carefully on this question because of its importance in the context of our discussion of reincarnation.

    The question indicates that the disciples believed, or knew, that it was possible for a baby to be born blind as a result of the baby's sin. The disciples were, of course, intelligent and wise enough to know that any punishment of being born blind could only have been due to a sin committed before birth. In other words, the disciples would not have asked the question if they did not consider it possible for a person to commit a sin before birth.

    If a person must be made to suffer on earth for a wrong done before birth, such wrong could only have been done on earth in a previous earth-life. Thus, the question the disciples asked our Lord Jesus Christ implied that they believed in reincarnation.

    It is important for us to emphasize that the answer Jesus gave does not in any way contradict a belief in reincarnation. Jesus is quoted as saying:

    It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him (John 9:3).

    What this means is that 'in this particular case, the cause of blindness was not due to the sin of the man nor of his parents. Christ's answer should not be interpreted to mean that there are no cases in which adversity or infirmity is due to a man's own sin.
    Other passages:

    Hebrew11:35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.

    Job 1:20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:

    “Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
    and naked I will go there.[c]
    The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away;
    may the name of the Lord be praised.”


    Judaism views on reincarnation:
    http://judaism.about.com/od/kabbalah...b_reincarn.htm

    According to Kabbalah, all of the souls of humanity were a part of Adam and Eve, and therefore were all present and participant when Adam and Eve "fell". Since the Fall, we have proceeded to incarnate to correct our collective misjudgment, and once all souls have made their complete correction, we will once again returned to our unified state with the Creator. Some refer to this as "Tikune Olam", "Gmar Hatikune", and "The Final Redemption".

    Through looking at the Zohar, Kabbalah's cardinal text, one is better able to understand the Torah and its tremendous secrets, which include the laws of reincarnation. My father and teacher, Rav Berg, wrote a book called "Wheels of a Soul" that can better explain this concept and the connection than any email response could do.
    God Bless.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  2. #2
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    Hellow Cheow
    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Hi all,

    In this thread I would like to discuss if God give chances for evil men?
    In some ways God is longsuffering. That means he is giving time for people to repent. Of course some people will have a conversion moment and repent, so I have to say the answer is yes? However, there comes a point when God gives up on people and that is when they are called reprobates and I see no way back from that position. Humans can consider life priceless, but does God value any life over the perfect life that he requires?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    I believe that the Israelites understood that the killings will stop the evil sinful people from further sinning so that God could give them another chance through rebirth and reincarnation.
    Is that supported by scripture? Death is the same for humans and animals; both go back to dust. Jesus understood that his spirit would be preserved by his Heavenly Father. I associate that spirit as one's name written in the Book of Life. It is that spirit if destroyed is the blueprint for resurrection destroyed. These are very simplistic terms, and we do not understand the process, but speaking of reincarnation is not what I see the Bible teaches.



    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Other passages:

    Hebrew11:35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.
    This is a probable reference to 1 Kings 17:22 where Elijah revived (resurrected) a young child to his mother.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Job 1:20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:

    “Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
    and naked I will go there.[c]
    The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away;
    may the name of the Lord be praised.”
    I see this verse in the same sense as; (Eccl 3:20) all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. It is the natural cycle of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Old Testament Accounts

    First, let us consider texts from the Old Testament. In narrating his call to prophethood, Jeremiah stated:

    Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you; and before you were born I consecrated you, and I appointed you a prophet to the nations" (Jeremiah 1:45).
    This passage clearly suggests that Jeremiah existed in a non-earthly part of Creation before he was conceived. This is to say that pre-existence is acknowledged by the Scriptures and that human beings do not come into existence only at birth. If we existed before birth, does that period of existence include, or can it include, a time on earth? Why not?
    It does not suggest to me what you say. It means to me that Jeremiah was foreknown and predetermined just as Jesus was foreknown and predetermined. Pre-existence is one subject that I have to disagree with you.

    All the best
    David

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hellow Cheow
    In some ways God is longsuffering. That means he is giving time for people to repent. Of course some people will have a conversion moment and repent, so I have to say the answer is yes? However, there comes a point when God gives up on people and that is when they are called reprobates and I see no way back from that position. Humans can consider life priceless, but does God value any life over the perfect life that he requires?

    Is that supported by scripture? Death is the same for humans and animals; both go back to dust. Jesus understood that his spirit would be preserved by his Heavenly Father. I associate that spirit as one's name written in the Book of Life. It is that spirit if destroyed is the blueprint for resurrection destroyed. These are very simplistic terms, and we do not understand the process, but speaking of reincarnation is not what I see the Bible teaches.
    Hi David, I agree with you that God is longsuffering but there will be a limit whereby God will say enough before he issue punishments...diseases, disasters etc. and finally death. I am looking for scriptural evidence but unable to find, so the alternative I am looking at is the Apocrypha and other religious books sch as Judaism, Islam etc. Below is a quote from the Zohar regarding reincarnation:

    All souls are subject to reincarnation; and people do not know the ways of the Holy One, blessed be He! They do not know that they are brought before the tribunal both before they enter into this world and after they leave it; they are ignorant of the many reincarnations and secret works which they have to undergo, and of the number of naked souls, and how many naked spirits roam about in the other world without being able to enter within the veil of the King's Palace. Men do not know how the souls revolve like a stone that is thrown from a sling. But the time is at hand when these mysteries will be disclosed. (Zohar II 99b)

    I understand that we should not refer to other unapproved religious books but it is good to see what others have to say. Buddhism and Hinduism talks about karma, reincarnation. Judaism, Islam also talks about reincarnation. Even Jesus and his disciples believe in the reincarnation of Elijah in John the Baptist, why shouldn't Christianity? We also need to understand those people in Moses time also belief in Reincarnation; same with the ancient Egyptians, Greek, Romans, Persians. It's high time that Christianity looks into the belief in Reincarnation. I also presented irrefutable real-life evidences of Reincarnation. All these add supports that there is reincarnation and it has a role to play. So if Merciful God reincarnates a person, what is the criterias? 3 supposed criterias came into my mind, one who died innocently such as in accidents, infants or people who died without hearing the scriptures, evil people who God thinks have a chance for repentance.

    This is a probable reference to 1 Kings 17:22 where Elijah revived (resurrected) a young child to his mother.

    I see this verse in the same sense as; (Eccl 3:20) all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. It is the natural cycle of life.

    It does not suggest to me what you say. It means to me that Jeremiah was foreknown and predetermined just as Jesus was foreknown and predetermined. Pre-existence is one subject that I have to disagree with you.

    All the best
    David
    I have referenced to a website (there are many if you googled) which discussed about Reincarnation with the supposed evidences from the Bible. It is worth considering the possibility of Reincarnation as another avenue in which Merciful God kills so that He can pardon sinners and evildoers by giving second chance through reincarnation. God can reincarnates a person whenever He deemed necessary, isn't it?

    God Bless.
    Last edited by CWH; 05-10-2014 at 10:02 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  4. #4
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    I have found some passages in the Apocrypha that strongly suggests reincarnation of evil people so that they have several chances to repent of their past life and to do good so that God would save their souls from the final utter destruction with no reincarnation or resurrection. God is Merciful which is why He will give chances for evildoers, sinners or innocents to make good for their sin and ignorance:

    http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen10.html

    Christian Reincarnation

    More scriptural support for reincarnation:

    The first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus states that the Pharisees, the founders of rabbinic Judaism for whom Paul once belonged, believed in reincarnation. He writes that the Pharisees believed that the souls of bad men are punished after death but that the souls of good men are "removed into other bodies" and they will "have power to revive and live again." The Sadducees, the other prominent Jewish sect in Palestine, did not emphasize life after death and according to the Bible "say there is no resurrection" (Matthew 22:23). From what we have just discussed, it is clear that what Matthew really states is that the Sadducees "say there is no reincarnation".

    The following are some the secret teachings of Jesus from the Gnostic gospels that affirm reincarnation, revealing the secret knowledge:

    "Watch and pray that you may not be born in the flesh, but that you may leave the bitter bondage of this life." (Book of Thomas the Contender)

    "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will bear!" (Gospel of Thomas)

    In the Book of Thomas the Contender, Jesus tells the disciple Thomas that after death those who were once believers but have remained attached to things of "transitory beauty" will be consumed "in their concern about life" and will be "brought back to the visible realm".

    In the Secret Book of John, reincarnation is placed at the heart of its discussion of the salvation of souls. The book was written by 185 AD at the latest. Here is the Secret Book of John's perspective on reincarnation:

    All people have drunk the water of forgetfulness and exist in a state of ignorance. Some are able to overcome ignorance through the Spirit of life that descends upon them. These souls "will be saved and will become perfect," that is, escape the round of rebirth. John asks Jesus what will happen to those who do not attain salvation. They are hurled down "into forgetfulness" and thrown into "prison", the Gnostic code word for new body. The only way for these souls to escape, says Jesus, is to emerge from forgetfulness and acquire knowledge. A soul in this situation can do so by finding a teacher or savior who has the strength to lead her home. "This soul needs to follow another soul in whom the Spirit of life dwells, because she is saved through the Spirit. Then she will never be thrust into flesh again." (Secret Book of John)

    Another Gnostic text, Pistis Sophia, outlines an elaborate system of reward and punishment that includes reincarnation. The text explains differences in fate as the effects of past-life actions. A "man who curses" is given a body that will be continually "troubled in heart". A "man who slanders" receives a body that will be "oppressed". A thief receives a "lame, crooked and blind body". A "proud" and "scornful" man receives "a lame and ugly body" that "everyone continually despises." Thus earth, as well as hell, becomes the place of punishment.

    According to Pistis Sophia, some souls do experience hell as a shadowy place of torture where they go after death. But after passing through this hell, the souls return for further experiences on earth. Only a few extremely wicked souls are not allowed to reincarnate. These are cast into "outer darkness" until the time when they are destined to be "destroyed and dissolved".

    Several Gnostic texts combine the ideas of reincarnation and union with God. The Apocalypse of Paul, a second-century text, describes the Merkabah-style ascent of the apostle Paul as well as the reincarnation of a soul who was not ready for such an ascent. It shows how both reincarnation and ascents fit into Gnostic theology. Click here to read more.

    As Paul passes through the fourth heaven, he sees a soul being punished for murder. This soul is being whipped by angels who have brought him "out of the land of the dead" (earth). The soul calls three witnesses, who charge him with murder. The soul then looks down "in sorrow" and is "cast down" into a body that has been prepared for it. The text goes on to describe Paul's further journey through the heavens, a practice run for divine union.

    Pistis Sophia combines the ideas of reincarnation and divine union in a passage that begins with the question: What happens to "a man who has committed no sin, but done good persistently, but has not found the mysteries?" The Pistis Sophia tells us that the soul of the good man who has not found the mysteries will receive "a cup filled with thoughts and wisdom." This will allow the soul to remember its divine origin and so to pursue the "mysteries of the Light" until it finds them and is able to "inherit the Light forever." To "inherit the Light forever" is a Gnostic code for union with God.

    For the Gnostic Christians, resurrection was also a spiritual event - simply the awakening of the soul. They believed that people who experience the resurrection can experience eternal life, or union with God, while on earth and then after death, escape rebirth. People who don't experience the resurrection and union with God on earth will reincarnate. Jesus states the following the Gnostic Gospels:

    "People who say they will first die and then arise are mistaken. If they do not first receive resurrection while they are alive, once they have died they will receive nothing." (Gospel of Philip)

    Jesus explained the concept of resurrection before raising Lazarus from the dead:

    "Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:23-26)

    In these verses, Jesus tells Martha her brother Lazarus will "rise again". Martha mistakenly thinks Jesus means Lazarus will come out of his grave at Judgment Day. Jesus corrects her by stating that those who believe in Him will live, even before they die. Jesus is referring here to spiritual regeneration. Jesus also states that those who die believing in Him, will never die. This clearly implies reincarnation. The flip-side to this is that those who die not believing in Him, will have to die again (i.e. reincarnate). It is interesting to note that by raising Lazarus from death, Jesus is forcing Lazarus to live out the rest of his life only to die physically again. By raising Lazarus from death, Jesus seems to be demonstrating that one does not wait until Judgment Day to rise.

    Jesus flatly tells Nicodemus:

    "I tell you a truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." (John 3:3)

    Nicodemus misunderstands what Jesus means by "born again":

    "How can a person be born when he is old? Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" (John 3:4)

    In response, Jesus states:

    "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." (John 3:5-6)

    In context of these verses, Jesus is talking about the process of resurrection, that is, being born of water and being born of the Spirit. Jesus describes physical resurrection (to be born of water) and spiritual resurrection (to be born of the Spirit). They are two similar yet different processes. From these verses, the case can be made that Jesus taught the concept of resurrection as being physical rebirth as well as spiritual rebirth.

    In the Apocryphal book Wisdom of Solomon, recognized by the Catholic Church, is the following verse:

    "... I was given a sound body to live in because I was already good." (Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20)

    This verse raises the following question: How is it possible to get a body after you have already been good if reincarnation is a fact?

    Flavius Josephus records that the Essenes of the Dead Sea Scrolls lived "the same kind of life" as the followers of the Greek philosopher Pythagoras who taught reincarnation. According to Josephus, the Essenes believed that the soul is both immortal and preexistent which is necessary for belief in reincarnation.

    One scroll entitled "The Last Jubilee" mentions reincarnation. This scroll is about the "last days" during which time it says, a "Melchizedek redivivus" (reincarnate) will appear and destroy Belial (Satan) and lead the children of God to eternal forgiveness. Parts of this scroll has been unreadable and will be denoted by this '. . .' symbol. Here is it's message:

    "Men will turn away in rebellion, and there will be a re-establishment of the reign of righteousness, perversity being confounded by the judgements of God. This is what scripture implies in the words, "Who says to Zion, your God has not claimed his Kingdom!" The term Zion there denoting the total congregation of the "sons of righteousness" that is, those who maintain the covenant and turn away from the popular trend, and your God signifying the King of Righteousness, alias Melchizedek Redivivus, who will destroy Belial. Our text speaks also of sounding a loud trumpet blast throughout the land on the tenth day of the seventh month. As applied to the last days, this refers to the fanfare which will then be sounded before the Messianic King." (The Last Jubilee)

    Reincarnation has been a tenet for thousands of years for certain Jews and Christians. The Zohar is a work of great weight and authority among the Jews. In II, 199 b, it says that "all souls are subject to revolutions." This is metempsychosis or a'leen b'gilgoola; but it declares that "men do not know the way they have been judged in all time." That is, in their "revolutions" they lose a complete memory of the acts that have led to judgment. The Kether Malkuth says, "If she, the soul, be pure, then she shall obtain favor.. . but if she hath been defiled, then she shall wander for a time in pain and despair. . . until the days of her purification." If the soul be pure and if she comes at once from God at birth, how could she be defiled? And where is she to wander if not on this or some other world until the days of her purification? The Rabbis always explained it as meaning she wandered down from Paradise through many revolutions or births until purity was regained.
    God Bless.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Hi all,

    In this thread I would like to discuss if God give chances for evil men? I will focus on my understanding of Rebirth which maybe a taboo for some Christians. We have noted that God hates evil and will do whatever necessary to get rid of evil. God wanted to recruit righteous people into His Kingdom of Heaven in which there is no place for evil people. The Kingdom of Heaven is like God's country and like every country, they do not want to receive bad elements such as terrorists, criminals, troublemakers etc. to be their citizens. But in the Bible, we see a lot of killings done by God on evil people which give the impression of an evil brutal God contradictory to what He claimed to be merciful, slow to anger, forgiving etc. This is not what it seems to be. If USA goes around the world killing all terrorists, is it a brutal evil country? No, because the US is doing its best to make this world a safer place to live in and also to combat in the name of justice the blatant killings of innocent people. This is exactly what God was and is doing.

    God will give ample warnings to evil people that if they did not repent from their evil ways and do good, they will be destroyed. This was evident as an example before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah when he sent his prophets to warn them of destruction if they did not repent and he also make sure there was not even a single righteous person there before the destruction. If the evil people repent, God will refrain from the threat that he would do. But why must God kills? Well, if somebody does not heed kind advice not to harm himself and others and despite repeated persuasion, the only choice left is to use force including killing in the name of self-defense to prevent him from harming others. Therefore, God killed evil people if His warnings and efforts failed and he has no other choice to prevent evil people from becoming more evil and sinful. Sometimes of course God will caused harm to the evil people, such as causing King Nebuchadnessar to be mad and eat grass etc. to force him from doing evil and sin but if this failed to cause repentance, the only choice left is to kill. Being a just God, the more evil and sins one has the more difficult it is for God to pardon. This is analogous judge giving judgement to an offender, the bigger the offense, the harsher is the punishment.

    Killing is one way in which God stop evil people from doing more evil and sin so that he can pardon them by giving them another or more chance through rebirth. This is the hallmark of being a Merciful God giving chance after chance. The ancient people believe that death is a road to reincarnation. Therefore when God ordered the Israelites to kill evil and sinful people without mercy, I believe that the Israelites understood that the killings will stop the evil sinful people from further sinning so that God could give them another chance through rebirth and reincarnation.

    Jesus said, "Do not fear people who can destroy the body but not the soul but fear God who can destroy both body and soul in Hell". What Jesus means is that people can only destroy the body which can be easily resurrected or given rebirth by God, whereas God can destroy both body and soul in Hell which means once the soul is destroyed there is no way of rebirth or resurrection. Overall, many religions in the world believe in rebirth and reincarnations such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism. So were the ancient Greek, Jews, Egyptian, Romans etc. It is time that Christianity review its stand on Rebirth and Reincarnation. There are also real life testimonies of past life which are unrefutable:

    http://listverse.com/2013/10/21/10-i...reincarnation/

    See wiki on Reincarnation:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation

    There are some passages in the Bible which suggest rebirth and reincarnation:

    http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html



    Other passages:

    Hebrew11:35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.

    Job 1:20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:

    “Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
    and naked I will go there.[c]
    The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away;
    may the name of the Lord be praised.”


    Judaism views on reincarnation:
    http://judaism.about.com/od/kabbalah...b_reincarn.htm



    God Bless.
    Don't fool yourself with reason of rebirth to those God has killed. Dust the are, and dust they will stay.
    John 6:44 "No man can come to me unless the father, who sent me, draws him, and I will resurrect him in the last day."

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domenic View Post
    Don't fool yourself with reason of rebirth to those God has killed. Dust the are, and dust they will stay.
    Hi Domenic,

    The topic on Body, Soul and Spirit has been discussed in this forum. During death, the body return to dust but the spirit or soul goes to heaven. Jesus said, "You can kill the body but cannot kill the soul but fear God who can kill both body and soul in Hell" meaning the soul can lives forever if God allows. God can do anything with the soul including resurreection and reincarnation. The Jews, the Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, the ancient Egyptians, Greek, Roman, Chinese and even the Apostles when they thought John the Baptist was a reincarnation of Elijah....all believe in reincarnation except Christians. Even the Apocrypha mentions about reincarnation, and there are irrefutable events of reincarnation supported by scientific evidence. It 's time that Christianity have a good look at reincarnation.

    God Bless.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Hi Domenic,

    The topic on Body, Soul and Spirit has been discussed in this forum. During death, the body return to dust but the spirit or soul goes to heaven. Jesus said, "You can kill the body but cannot kill the soul but fear God who can kill both body and soul in Hell" meaning the soul can lives forever if God allows. God can do anything with the soul including resurreection and reincarnation. The Jews, the Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, the ancient Egyptians, Greek, Roman, Chinese and even the Apostles when they thought John the Baptist was a reincarnation of Elijah....all believe in reincarnation except Christians. Even the Apocrypha mentions about reincarnation, and there are irrefutable events of reincarnation supported by scientific evidence. It 's time that Christianity have a good look at reincarnation.

    God Bless.
    Please tell me what you think the soul is?
    John 6:44 "No man can come to me unless the father, who sent me, draws him, and I will resurrect him in the last day."

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Hi all,

    In this thread I would like to discuss if God give chances for evil men? I will focus on my understanding of Rebirth which maybe a taboo for some Christians. We have noted that God hates evil and will do whatever necessary to get rid of evil. God wanted to recruit righteous people into His Kingdom of Heaven in which there is no place for evil people. The Kingdom of Heaven is like God's country and like every country, they do not want to receive bad elements such as terrorists, criminals, troublemakers etc. to be their citizens. But in the Bible, we see a lot of killings done by God on evil people which give the impression of an evil brutal God contradictory to what He claimed to be merciful, slow to anger, forgiving etc. This is not what it seems to be. If USA goes around the world killing all terrorists, is it a brutal evil country? No, because the US is doing its best to make this world a safer place to live in and also to combat in the name of justice the blatant killings of innocent people. This is exactly what God was and is doing.

    God will give ample warnings to evil people that if they did not repent from their evil ways and do good, they will be destroyed. This was evident as an example before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah when he sent his prophets to warn them of destruction if they did not repent and he also make sure there was not even a single righteous person there before the destruction. If the evil people repent, God will refrain from the threat that he would do. But why must God kills? Well, if somebody does not heed kind advice not to harm himself and others and despite repeated persuasion, the only choice left is to use force including killing in the name of self-defense to prevent him from harming others. Therefore, God killed evil people if His warnings and efforts failed and he has no other choice to prevent evil people from becoming more evil and sinful. Sometimes of course God will caused harm to the evil people, such as causing King Nebuchadnessar to be mad and eat grass etc. to force him from doing evil and sin but if this failed to cause repentance, the only choice left is to kill. Being a just God, the more evil and sins one has the more difficult it is for God to pardon. This is analogous judge giving judgement to an offender, the bigger the offense, the harsher is the punishment.

    Killing is one way in which God stop evil people from doing more evil and sin so that he can pardon them by giving them another or more chance through rebirth. This is the hallmark of being a Merciful God giving chance after chance. The ancient people believe that death is a road to reincarnation. Therefore when God ordered the Israelites to kill evil and sinful people without mercy, I believe that the Israelites understood that the killings will stop the evil sinful people from further sinning so that God could give them another chance through rebirth and reincarnation.

    Jesus said, "Do not fear people who can destroy the body but not the soul but fear God who can destroy both body and soul in Hell". What Jesus means is that people can only destroy the body which can be easily resurrected or given rebirth by God, whereas God can destroy both body and soul in Hell which means once the soul is destroyed there is no way of rebirth or resurrection. Overall, many religions in the world believe in rebirth and reincarnations such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism. So were the ancient Greek, Jews, Egyptian, Romans etc. It is time that Christianity review its stand on Rebirth and Reincarnation. There are also real life testimonies of past life which are unrefutable:

    http://listverse.com/2013/10/21/10-i...reincarnation/

    See wiki on Reincarnation:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation

    There are some passages in the Bible which suggest rebirth and reincarnation:

    http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html



    Other passages:

    Hebrew11:35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.

    Job 1:20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:

    “Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
    and naked I will go there.[c]
    The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away;
    may the name of the Lord be praised.”


    Judaism views on reincarnation:
    http://judaism.about.com/od/kabbalah...b_reincarn.htm



    God Bless.:pray:

    Hello CW, if I may call you that and thank you for this post. You have given me much more food for thought on this issue.

    Recently this subject has been in my mind again as a sister brought it up as well. My only answer to her was that reincarnation is not supported by the mainstream church, but that the possibility, in my mind, remains open because I haven't seen much scripture to show me it isn't. I say not much because there are a few verses that help support it not being possible although I would say that the argument is weak and in no way should entitle anyone to create doctrine based on it, but then who am I to say? The most widely quoted would be Hebrews 9:27. Most other verses all point to resurrection which is not quite the same. It would be good to point out the differences that I understand before I continue:

    Resurrection: The resurrected body is one brought back to life (from the dead body) never again to die. It remembers the past life.

    Reincarnation: The reincarnated body incorporates the soul (from a dead body) that has previously been born and is now born into a new body as a baby having forgotten the past life except for some level of experience already learned.

    That is a very simplistic explanation of very deep possibility. Now before I quote a few verses that are in support, I would like to point out the reasons that reincarnation would be both good and bad.

    Good: We have more than one life (chance) to pass this test here on earth. It also explains why people are born crippled or why babies die and why God allows sin to continue. There are many verses that support this thought.

    Bad: Some people may be uncaring about their present life knowing that if they mess it up they have another chance and therefor take it for granted and would abuse it to have a good time, this time as there is another time to come. Verses such as Isaiah 22:13 seems to support this.

    Again simplistic as more could be added. Reincarnation would be a good thing for us and not otherwise.. Given more than one chance makes sense. It is our very nature (unlearned, animal man) to mess things up. Living only one life, dying and awaiting judgment doesn't make as much sense. Having said that, that is from the mind of the unlearned man.

    Now here are some additional verses to consider:

    Genesis 4:15 KJV
    (15)* And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

    Jude 1:12
    (12)* These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

    Matthew 16:27-28
    (27)* For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
    (28)* Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    John 21:22
    (22)* Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

    John 3:3
    (3)* Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


    I have heard John 3:3 being used to refer to baptism which it is. Baptism is the ritual of being born again into Jesus Christ and until Christ first came, there was no salvation for man. That establishes the need to be born again to know God. The "ritual" of baptism will hopefully bring salvation without having to be reborn physically, if one sincerely chooses to follow God and not just be baptized for their own salvation "save your life, lose your life". Falling backward may mean being born again into this world.

    Genesis 4:15 has questions. I have yet to figure this out except for what is possible. That being the recompense for murdering a murderer will be severe. I always keep in mind that God allowed certain law to creep into scripture for the "hardness of our heart" ie., slavery, war etc., (man's law). Revenge is better judged by God than man. If we had followed in faith from the beginning, this would not have been necessary:

    Hebrews 11:4
    (4)* By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

    Hebrews 12:24* And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.*

    Hebrews 10:28-30
    (28)He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    (29)*Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    (30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


    Payment for sin can now be made by true repentance as our redemption has been payed for by Christ. Reincarnation would not be necessary in this case.

    So, what about all of the people that had been born before Christ? The mainstream Christian belief is that they will be reborn in the second resurrection, but what if there is reincarnation? What if we have been here before? What if we don't need to come back and be tested again? What if we can be in the first resurrection?

    The possibility of reincarnation is a pretty deep subject, but I believe you have brought it to light for further discussion and so I thank God for finding this forum and for your posting this question. It remains to me a very distinct possibility, but even if correct, it may not be very appropriate to mention in church :)

    I also must add that either way, true or false, is not the important issue. Knowing reincarnation is possible should help a person to try harder in this life and not be reborn into "this world" again or it may hinder in that a person may think there is another day and procrastinate on their own repentance. Bad for them if this is the case.

    P.S. There are more verses. God willing I will gather my notes and reply again. Anyone finding error in my thought is most welcome to voice.
    P.P.S. It was the scripture from John 9 regarding the blind man from birth that initially opened my eyes.

    Thanks again. May God bless you with more understanding and comfort of Spirit.

  9. #9
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    Rikael
    Resurrection: The resurrected body is one brought back to life (from the dead body) never again to die. It remembers the past life.
    A/The Resurrected Body? Single/Corporate? Physical/Spiritual?

    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...pians/3_11.htm
    Brother Les

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    A/The Resurrected Body? Single/Corporate? Physical/Spiritual?

    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...pians/3_11.htm
    Brother Les,

    Sorry for not answering sooner. It seems I do not receive any notifications from this site. I need to check my settings again.

    I should have stated that those are the traditional views. Not my own.

    1 John 3:2 KJV* Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

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