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Thread: Jacob-to-Joseph

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Maybe the two Jacobs of Matthew have to be understood as one and the same "supplanter", father of both Judah and Joseph.
    Negative, Sylvie, it emphasizes the Father-to-Son Generations through the OT (because Adam was first) and then Father-to-Daughter in NT, where gender not an issue, as per Gal 3:28.

    [ Purpose of OT was to bring forth the Promised Seed/Son JESUS, and now the NT is emphasizing the 'Fruitful' females; B]Trees of Righteousness[/B]!
    dux,

    I find your whole subject genealogical subject interesting, as we chewed on this one a while back, but Gal 3:28 does not teach that there are not gender distinctives any more, but that the Gospel is equally open for bond and free, male and female, Jew and Gentile. Paul and other NT writers clearly define the gender differences.

    That is why I am in it so deep with Richard and Rose. I believe that they are not only correct in their assessment of the differences, but that they also carry over to the NT. I simply refuse to define this as some kind of negative sexism. It is easy for us to make all kinds of definitions and then ridicule the God that doesn't measure up to our standards and definitions. I sometimes wonder where any standard could possibly come from with absoluteness, if not from God.

    respectfully,
    dp
    Last edited by dpenn; 09-15-2014 at 11:59 AM.

  2. #12
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    Gal 3:28"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus". Agree, dpen, that this may not apply directly to a change in attitude towards women, but I still maintain the pedigree of Jesus is by way of his mother in Matt 1:16. And Jacob is Generation #63, which IMO shines light on 1Cor 1:25 concerning God's foolishness! hah.

    The "administrations or dispensations" included changing the way they did things!
    Isa37:3 "..Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the "children" are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth".

    Abraham sending his servant to fetch a wife for Isaac is like how God has sent the Holy Spirit to look for wives for the bridegroom! And many more similarities like this when you're looking for them!
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  3. #13
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    dp:

    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Gal 3:28"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus". Agree, dpen, that this may not apply directly to a change in attitude towards women, but I still maintain the pedigree of Jesus is by way of his mother in Matt 1:16. And Jacob is Generation #63, which IMO shines light on 1Cor 1:25 concerning God's foolishness! hah.

    The "administrations or dispensations" included changing the way they did things!
    Isa37:3 "..Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the "children" are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth".

    Abraham sending his servant to fetch a wife for Isaac is like how God has sent the Holy Spirit to look for wives for the bridegroom! And many more similarities like this when you're looking for them!
    dux,

    yes, Mary is Jesus' flesh and blood mother, although the male DNA had to have been created miraculously by the Holy Spirit. But you did add a bit to this, saying:

    ... it emphasizes the Father-to-Son Generations through the OT (because Adam was first) and then Father-to-Daughter in NT, where gender not an issue, as per Gal 3:28.

    Purpose of OT was to bring forth the Promised Seed/Son JESUS, and now the NT is emphasizing the 'Fruitful' females; Trees of Righteousness!
    If God, in the OT and NT wanted to teach that, don't you think the Scriptures would have clearly said that? We wouldn't have to use our imagination to introduce anything we wanted to from it. This was one of the main reasons the Reformers were so insistent on sola Scriptura, as the only standard for the Christian's faith and practice. Aren't you just a little suspicious as to why Jesus didn't use gematria, or kabbala, or talmud, for His teachings? If He didn't, why should we?

    dp
    Last edited by dpenn; 09-15-2014 at 04:59 PM.

  4. #14
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    For starters, dpenn, am Not talking about DNA or Gematria -- commendable subjects, and maybe they figure somehow in the Generation theme, but I don't see it yet..

    1 Cor 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
    12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

    You wrote:
    If God, in the OT and NT wanted to teach that, don't you think the Scriptures would have clearly said that?
    No, I certainly don't. Like my 'signature' verse says, I'm convinced many things have been hidden from us ON PURPOSE for us to study to show ourselves approved. 2Tim2:15
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  5. #15
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    dp:

    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    For starters, dpenn, am Not talking about DNA or Gematria -- commendable subjects, and maybe they figure somehow in the Generation theme, but I don't see it yet..

    1 Cor 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
    12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

    You wrote:

    No, I certainly don't. Like my 'signature' verse says, I'm convinced many things have been hidden from us ON PURPOSE for us to study to show ourselves approved. 2Tim2:15
    dux,

    You can't take one verse and set aside the clear teaching of the Bible, turning it into a type of mystery religion like the gnostics. Yes, I do believe that we are to study to show ourselves approved unto God, workmen that know how to rightly divide the Word of Truth. But Jesus never once relied upon gematria, or kabbala, or talmud for that study. As a matter of fact, in the sermon on the mount, of Matthew 5-7 he rebuked quite strongly the oral tradition of the scribes and pharisees, many teachings which eventually found their way into the Babylonian Talmud. Pretty soon, the Scriptures become a mere springboard into the deeper mathematical correlations of the Scriptures, and that at the imagination of the so-called interpreter. Jesus always taught openly, offering His teaching freely to whomsoever would receive it and submit to it. And although the allegory figure of speech is used in the Scripture, as in Galatians, it is stated ahead of time that it is being employed. Why is it that the clear straight-forward interpretation of Scripture usually comes up different than the hidden message interpretation, and almost always, just a little bit less real?

    dp
    Last edited by dpenn; 09-15-2014 at 04:58 PM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpenn View Post
    dux,

    You can't take one verse and set aside the clear teaching of the Bible, turning it into a type of mystery religion like the gnostics. Yes, I do believe that we are to study to show ourselves approved unto God, workmen that know how to rightly divide the Word of Truth. But Jesus never once relied upon gematria, or kabbala, or talmud for that study. As a matter of fact, in the sermon on the mount, of Matthew 5-7 he rebuked quite strongly the oral tradition of the scribes and pharisees, many teachings which eventually found their way into the Babylonian Talmud. Pretty soon, the Scriptures become a mere springboard into the deeper mathematical correlations of the Scriptures, and that at the imagination of the so-called interpreter. Jesus always taught openly, offering His teaching freely to whomsoever would receive it and submit to it. And although the allegory figure of speech is used in the Scripture, as in Galatians, it is stated ahead of time that it is being employed. Why is it that the clear straight-forward interpretation of Scripture usually comes up different than the hidden message interpretation, and almost always, just a little bit less real?

    dp
    Enuf already, DPEN--I wouldn't expect Jesus to get into gematria, or kabbala, and I definitely believe his entire message, but he'd been with the 12 for over 3 years and then said the Holy Spirit would lead them to the MEAT. Both Peter and Paul speak of 'the milk and meat' of the Word, and Isa28 speaks of being weaned.. Richard has a problem with that ever since I spoke of "Father's milk" being maybe more important than Mother's milk. hah..
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  7. #17
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    dp:

    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post

    Enuf already, DPEN--I wouldn't expect Jesus to get into gematria, or kabbala, and I definitely believe his entire message, but he'd been with the 12 for over 3 years and then said the Holy Spirit would lead them to the MEAT. Both Peter and Paul speak of 'the milk and meat' of the Word, and Isa28 speaks of being weaned.. Richard has a problem with that ever since I spoke of "Father's milk" being maybe more important than Mother's milk. hah..
    ok dux, maybe you're just a little nuts. I'm glad you haven't succombed to gematria and kabbala, and I am hoping Talmud. But I sure wouldn't open that can of milk and meat quite that liberally. Yes, we are exhorted to desire the milk and the meat, but it is both, "OF THE WORD", and there is no hint that we are to play mystery religion with it all, or to play a secret game of EUREKA. I think it means to search out the clear and simple meaning of the Scriptures, that are even open to the uneducated, if they search prayerfully, and diligently.

    As for the "Father's milk" being maybe more important than Mother's milk. hah.. , I have my limits ... the line has to be drawn somewhere.

    dp
    Last edited by dpenn; 09-15-2014 at 04:57 PM.

  8. #18
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    1Pet2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, all evil speakings,
    2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
    2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

    Spiritual MILK! John6:63..

    Gotta Go now.. Look forward to some other time.. /s/ dux
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Negative, Sylvie, it emphasizes the Father-to-Son Generations through the OT (because Adam was first) and then Father-to-Daughter in NT, where gender not an issue, as per Gal 3:28.

    [ Purpose of OT was to bring forth the Promised Seed/Son JESUS, and now the NT is emphasizing the 'Fruitful' females; B]Trees of Righteousness[/B]!

    Matthew made Jesus to be both son of Judah and son of Joseph.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Matthew made Jesus to be both son of Judah and son of Joseph.
    Why would He want to do that? Sylvie, for what purpose? Judah had five sons already, and there are nearly a dozen Joseph's in Scripture. Matthew is the KING LINE which includes 19 kings and compares to the 19 generations preceding Abraham#20.
    Last edited by duxrow; 09-16-2014 at 05:48 AM.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

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