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  1. #11
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    Hi Rose,

    If you have evidence from the Bible, show us. Several questions need to be answered if you want your article to be credible:

    Judge 21:11-12 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.
    1. From the passage above, show us that God killed all the children and evry male.
    2. What does every male ............that have lain by man means? Obviously homosexuals. Do you support homosexuality?
    3. What does every woman that hath lain by man means? Obviously, prostitutes, fornications, orgies, pedophlias etc. Do you support these as well? The evil men did all sorts of perverted sexual practices.
    4. Don't you want those 400 young virgins to be saved?
    5. Do you support the god Molech, which was known to burnt children alive as sacrifice and encouraged or forced women to be temple prostitutes and other perverted sexual practices? Are you happy with such practices?
    6. Anything in the passages that says innocent children and males were killed?

    Num.31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying…17) Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
    1. What evidence is there in this passage that says children were killed?
    2. What does "Kill every men among the little ones" means? It simply means kill the adult males but spare the kids.
    3. Don't you feel happy that all the evil perverted men and women were killed and the innocent children and women spared?


    *Deut.6:10-11 And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not, And houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full.
    1. Anything wrong with taking someone's properties which actually belongs to God? ...or do you prefer such properties to go into waste or be destroyed?
    2. It is said clearly in the passage that the land was already given to Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. Now who robbed these land from them in the first place? Do you support thieves and robbers?

    *2Sam.12:13-17 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them. And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died…
    1. Are you glad that God forgive peoole's sin when they repented?
    2. Are you glad that justice is done for Urriah?
    3. Are you glad that God can replace or reincarnate anyone killed for the better?
    4. Do you support children born from sinful reunion?

    *Exo.20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
    1. Show us proof in the Bible that God killed or punished the evil generations to the 3rd and 4th generations.
    2. What does "visitIng the iniquities of the fathers to the children till 4rd and 4th generations means? It simply means that the evils of the fathers will haunt their generations till the 3rd and 4th generations

    God Bless.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Hi Rose,

    If you have evidence from the Bible, show us. Several questions need to be answered if you want your article to be credible:
    Hello Cheow,

    The only evidence I need from the Bible are the words that are written in it! My responses to your questions are in blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Judge 21:11-12 And this is the thing that ye shall do Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.

    1. From the passage above, show us that God killed all the children and every male. The verse says "Ye shall utterly destroy EVERY MALE". Every male means every man, boy child and baby!
    2. What does every male ............that have lain by man means? Obviously homosexuals. Do you support homosexuality? It doesn't say every male that has lain with a man ... it say every woman that has lain with a man. I have no problem with people who practice homosexuality ... it is each individuals right to choose the partner they wish to live with and none of my business or yours.
    3. What does every woman that hath lain by man means? Obviously, prostitutes, fornications, orgies, pedophlias etc. Do you support these as well? The evil men did all sorts of perverted sexual practices. Every woman that has lain with a man means every woman who is not a virgin ... like all the married women.
    4. Don't you want those 400 young virgins to be saved? Of course I want all the virgins saved, along with all the other men, women and children!
    5. Do you support the god Molech, which was known to burnt children alive as sacrifice and encouraged or forced women to be temple prostitutes and other perverted sexual practices? Are you happy with such practices? Your questions are not relevant to the extreme immorality in slaughtering all the people in Jabesh-Gilead, except the 400 virgins, so the Benjamite men could have wives.
    6. Anything in the passages that says innocent children and males were killed? Yes! It says "YE SHALL UTTERLY DESTROY EVERY MALE!" that means every male child was killed! The only people left alive in the entire city of Jabesh-gilead were 400 virgin girls.

    Num.31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying…17) Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

    1. What evidence is there in this passage that says children were killed? Are you insane, or are you just pretending to be stupid? The verse plainly states "kill every male among the little ones" what else can I say?
    2. What does "Kill every men among the little ones" means? It simply means kill the adult males but spare the kids. It says to kill every MALE among the little ones, meaning the little virgin girls were not to be killed, only the little boys. The Hebrew word for male is zakar ... men are males, boys are males and baby boys are males. Males does not just mean men.
    3. Don't you feel happy that all the evil perverted men and women were killed and the innocent children and women spared? I think the whole account is horribly immoral!


    *Deut.6:10-11 And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not, And houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full.

    1. Anything wrong with taking someone's properties which actually belongs to God? ...or do you prefer such properties to go into waste or be destroyed? Yes, there is plenty wrong with slaughtering a whole population and taking their possessions and anyone who thinks differently has something seriously wrong with their sense of morality.
    2. It is said clearly in the passage that the land was already given to Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. Now who robbed these land from them in the first place? Do you support thieves and robbers? That land was inhabited long before it was supposedly given to Abraham and besides that the Hebrews were commanded to slaughter the whole population and show them no mercy! How cruel and inhumane is that?

    *2Sam.12:13-17 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them. And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died…

    1. Are you glad that God forgive peoole's sin when they repented? I don't believe in the Biblegod, therefore I don't believe in the concept of being born in sin.
    2. Are you glad that justice is done for Urriah? There was no justice done for Uriah! All that was accomplished was the suffering and death of an innocent child.
    3. Are you glad that God can replace or reincarnate anyone killed for the better? Once again, I don't believe in the Biblegod and besides that no one can ever be replaced ... that's what's so insane about the story of Job.
    4. Do you support children born from sinful reunion? I don't believe there is such a thing as a sinful reunion. The idea of sin is a concept made up in the minds of primitive men.

    *Exo.20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

    1. Show us proof in the Bible that God killed or punished the evil generations to the 3rd and 4th generations. The Bible states it in black and white.
    2. What does "visitIng the iniquities of the fathers to the children till 4rd and 4th generations means? It simply means that the evils of the fathers will haunt their generations till the 3rd and 4th generations. The Bible was written by primitive men who said and believed all sorts of barbaric and immoral things.

    God Bless.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Cheow,

    The only evidence I need from the Bible are the words that are written in it! My responses to your questions are in blue.
    Hello Rose
    You are not considering ALL the evidence in the Bible, you are selective in what you choose. OK, so we can all be selective of what we choose. I am prepared to make an exposition of every verse with you, to get to the truth. That means we have to look at every word and every possible meaning. That will give us a selection to choose from. Ultimately, to get a best fit of all the verses, we have to then select the meanings that give us the best fit.

    OK, so we end up with a few verses that are difficult to fit, that maybe because we have not found the correct meaning of the words in the verse, or error has crept in which is throwing us off track.

    To do an in depth analysis of all verses, we can ask ourselves all possible questions. You cannot be as dismissive of questions as you like to be. You have said to Cheow; "Your questions are not relevant to the extreme immorality in slaughtering all the people in Jabesh-Gilead, except the 400 virgins, so the Benjamite men could have wives". Cheow's questions are relevant.

    You say; "I have no problem with people who practice homosexuality ... it is each individuals right to choose the partner they wish to live with and none of my business or yours." You have strayed so far from the Bible, that you are not heeding the instruction of God. Homosexuality is an abomination to God. (Lev 20:13) 13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. You might not believe in the God of the bible demoting him to the biblegod, but you are not taking note of what is written. As an exercise, you can start by listing all the things which God says are an abomination to him. The ideal, is for every man and woman to be "clean". Clean in mind, and body. That is an ideal, but in practice, human intercourse has to take place in order to be fruitful and multiply as God instructed man and woman to be. However, just as those who devoted their lives to God and kept themselves as virgins, was keeping to the ideal. For a God that is requiring perfection and the only one who attained that perfection in mind and body was Jesus. God is vindicated, and no-one can say it was impossible for a man (human) to lead a sinless and pure life. That is the ideal we should aim to replicate, but we all fail, as God knows we shall fail, but then, God has given us a way out.


    Once you know what the abominations are and what constitutes a person being "clean" we get to understand the decisions made. Remember, that if you read the text correctly, it was Moses that saved the 32,000 virgins. They were regarded as "clean" in a society that was not "clean" and was an abomination to God. Abominable societies do not clean themselves up. If man as a whole was capable of getting cleaned up, he could have done so by now. The majority of mankind has no intention of following God's instructions and does that which is right in its own eyes. This is the backdrop to all of God's actions. Even his chosen people (descendents of Abraham, whom God made a covenant, the people broke the covenant straight after it was made. (Exod 24:7) All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. God's people did not keep their promise and we have a catalog of mistakes. A people who had the advantage of being given rules to ensure they stayed healthy in body and mind, and should have been held up as examples to follow, showed their fickleness and not being better than anyone else. (Deut 7:7) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, That is important to remember; God keeps his word. God is also the righteous judge and is in a position to know the thoughts and intents of all hearts. Since you cannot do what God can do, that does not put you in a position to judge as God judges. However, some things are obvious and we begin with those things which are an abomination to God and anything which can be considered as unclean to God.

    Your statements are so anti the God of the Bible, and your heart is so hardened against him, I shall not dwell on how wrong the rest of your statements are.

    Cheow asks for proof; "Show us proof in the Bible that God killed or punished the evil generations to the 3rd and 4th generations" and you reply; "The Bible states it in black and white".

    The following might be a fruitless exercise, but for the sake of those yet to find the truth, I will give my thoughts on how I interpret the following verse;
    (Numbers 14:18) The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

    This verse has two parts. The first part is saying the LORD is longsuffering and forgives iniquity and transgression. That is a characteristic of God you totally ignore and give no credit to the biblegod you refer to. What then do we consider longsuffering to mean? Would three of four generations be considered longsuffering? God is not letting the guilty off from receiving God's punishment. That is the same for all generations and all who do not meet God's requirements. God is judge and it is up to us to ensure we stay within the will of God and receive his mercy. God is giving people time to "clean up their act" as we would say in modern parlance. It is in this context, we can understand the second part of the verse. NOTE: it is the wrongful acts of the parents that are allowed to continue to the third and fourth generation. "Like father, like son" has the ring of truth about it. God is not punishing the second, third and fourth generations for the sins of the first generation. God will hold to account each generation for their own sins. God is longsuffering waiting until the third and fourth generation before he steps in. Do you not think that if by the third and fourth generations, they have not cleaned up their act and stopped doing the abominable things that God hates, then those people are not going to stop, but will continue ad infinitum throughout all generations? I expect you will not answer these questions.

    The fact is Rose, you are not reading into the word of God the things that God intends us to know and learn. It is convenient for you to take the slanted view that you think builds up your case against God. The fact is, that your slanted/biased view can be torn apart, by correctly doing an exposition of each verse to get to the truth of what the verse is telling us. As in another thread; the problem is one of attitude. Unless your attitude changes and you begin to see a chink of light, you will be forever confined to your own darkness. You are locked in your own abyss, in the rooms of darkness. The fact that I can use such phrases to describe your position does not mean I believe in that myth. I do so, to make another point about the myths and lies that have been constructed by man and which you are a follower.

    All the best
    David

  4. #14
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    Reverse Psychology

    Hi all,

    I would sometimes used what I call "Reverse Psychology" to understand passages in the Bible. Such methods have been taught in school in which if you want to perceive a problem better or if you want to solve a problem , try and see the problem by going backwards or in the opposite way. If the the reverse psychology method produces ridiculous or hilarious results then it is likely that our understanding or logic of the issue at hand is wrong. I used this method at times during my Bible study. Give your comments if you want to. I am now applying this method of reverse psychology on some of Rose's views in her article on the Gender Bias in the Bible:

    Rose's View:
    Six anti-woman claims that the Bible promotes:

    1. Women are considered the property of the man.
    2. Women are ruled over by men solely based on their gender.
    3. Women do not share equal rights with men.
    4. Women are considered of less value than men.
    5. Progeny is claimed to be carried through the loins of the male.
    6. The Biblegod is exclusively portrayed with “male” attributes.
    Cheow's Reverse Psychology method using reversal of gender:

    1. Men are considered the property of the Woman.
    2. Men are ruled over by women solely based on their gender.
    3. Women do not share equal rights with men.
    4. Men are considered of less value than women.
    5. Progeny is claimed to be carried through the loins of the female.
    6. The Biblegod is exclusively portrayed with “female” attributes.

    Comment: Well, men will have a good life as they will be potected, supported and managed by their wife. They will not mind to be constantly sold by their wife.

    Rose's Views
    Once again, as I have pointed out there is a double standard prevalent throughout the entire Bible with issues pertaining to women.
    1. Men could choose their wives/ women were sold to men for wives.
    2. Men could have multiple wives and concubines/ women could have one husband.
    3. Men could divorce their wives at will/ women were bound to their husbands for as long as their husbands lived.
    4. Men could marry virgins they raped/ women were sold to their abusers.
    Cheow's reverse psychology method based on gender reversal:
    1. Women could choose their husbands/ men were sold to women for husbands.
    2. Women could have multiple husbands and male concubines/ Men could have one wife.
    3. Women could divorce their husbands at will/ men were bound to their wife for as long as their wife lived.
    4. Women could marry male virgins they raped/ men were sold to their abusers.

    Comment: Poor women, they will die of oversex, multiple births, childcare and abortions from their husbands. Poor children, mothers will not have much time to look after them, much of their time spend on pregnancy and childcare. They will not be sure who are their actual fathers. Poor husbands, they have to take turns or get queue number to have sex with their wife or spend time with her. I wonder how the women raped men! They are on the losing end...the men will let the women raped as much as they want and happily divorce as much as they want. Men will be very happy to be for sale to be the women's concubines.

    How's that for Equality of Gender, Rose?....Double standards?

    God is Wise.

    God Bless.
    Last edited by CWH; 04-18-2014 at 05:04 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose
    You are not considering ALL the evidence in the Bible, you are selective in what you choose. OK, so we can all be selective of what we choose. I am prepared to make an exposition of every verse with you, to get to the truth. That means we have to look at every word and every possible meaning. That will give us a selection to choose from. Ultimately, to get a best fit of all the verses, we have to then select the meanings that give us the best fit.

    OK, so we end up with a few verses that are difficult to fit, that maybe because we have not found the correct meaning of the words in the verse, or error has crept in which is throwing us off track.
    Hello David

    The topic of my article Gender Bias in the Bible is specifically about all the male-bias in the Bible, so that is what my focus is on. If you want to focus on some other topic go ahead, but that in no-wise discounts all the gender bias contained in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    To do an in depth analysis of all verses, we can ask ourselves all possible questions. You cannot be as dismissive of questions as you like to be. You have said to Cheow; "Your questions are not relevant to the extreme immorality in slaughtering all the people in Jabesh-Gilead, except the 400 virgins, so the Benjamite men could have wives". Cheow's questions are relevant.
    Cheow was asking me what my personal opinions were on Molech and child sacrifice which was not relevant to the slaughter of inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead. "5. Do you support the god Molech, which was known to burnt children alive as sacrifice and encouraged or forced women to be temple prostitutes and other perverted sexual practices? Are you happy with such practices?"

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    You say; "I have no problem with people who practice homosexuality ... it is each individuals right to choose the partner they wish to live with and none of my business or yours." You have strayed so far from the Bible, that you are not heeding the instruction of God. Homosexuality is an abomination to God. (Lev 20:13) 13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. You might not believe in the God of the bible demoting him to the biblegod, but you are not taking note of what is written. As an exercise, you can start by listing all the things which God says are an abomination to him. The ideal, is for every man and woman to be "clean". Clean in mind, and body. That is an ideal, but in practice, human intercourse has to take place in order to be fruitful and multiply as God instructed man and woman to be. However, just as those who devoted their lives to God and kept themselves as virgins, was keeping to the ideal. For a God that is requiring perfection and the only one who attained that perfection in mind and body was Jesus. God is vindicated, and no-one can say it was impossible for a man (human) to lead a sinless and pure life. That is the ideal we should aim to replicate, but we all fail, as God knows we shall fail, but then, God has given us a way out.
    The things that the Biblegod says are an abomination to him are what men have created in their own minds. Men throughout history in many cultures have thought that homosexuality was wrong ... that does not mean it is. Men have also thought that slavery was right and that treating women as second class citizens was okay, but that does not mean it is. The Bible is filled with all sorts of immoral and wrong ideas, that is why it is so obvious it was written by men from their own biased imaginings. Sex in and of itself is not unclean, no matter what ones orientation is. It is only when sex is abused like in cases of rape and pedophilia that it becomes bad. Also, there is no need to be fruitful and multiply ... reproduction should be solely up to the choice of the individual, not the dictates from some imaginary deity. It is no better to have children than not to have children.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    5. Do you support the god Molech, which was known to burnt children alive as sacrifice and encouraged or forced women to be temple prostitutes and other perverted sexual practices? Are you happy with such practices?Once you know what the abominations are and what constitutes a person being "clean" we get to understand the decisions made. Remember, that if you read the text correctly, it was Moses that saved the 32,000 virgins. They were regarded as "clean" in a society that was not "clean" and was an abomination to God. Abominable societies do not clean themselves up. If man as a whole was capable of getting cleaned up, he could have done so by now. The majority of mankind has no intention of following God's instructions and does that which is right in its own eyes. This is the backdrop to all of God's actions. Even his chosen people (descendents of Abraham, whom God made a covenant, the people broke the covenant straight after it was made. (Exod 24:7) All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. God's people did not keep their promise and we have a catalog of mistakes. A people who had the advantage of being given rules to ensure they stayed healthy in body and mind, and should have been held up as examples to follow, showed their fickleness and not being better than anyone else. (Deut 7:7) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, That is important to remember; God keeps his word. God is also the righteous judge and is in a position to know the thoughts and intents of all hearts. Since you cannot do what God can do, that does not put you in a position to judge as God judges. However, some things are obvious and we begin with those things which are an abomination to God and anything which can be considered as unclean to God.

    Your statements are so anti the God of the Bible, and your heart is so hardened against him, I shall not dwell on how wrong the rest of your statements are.
    Since when do two wrongs make a right? Throughout Scripture the Biblegod's solution to every bad situation is to do something bad in return ... that is pretty flawed reasoning.



    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The following might be a fruitless exercise, but for the sake of those yet to find the truth, I will give my thoughts on how I interpret the following verse;
    (Numbers 14:18) The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

    This verse has two parts. The first part is saying the LORD is longsuffering and forgives iniquity and transgression. That is a characteristic of God you totally ignore and give no credit to the biblegod you refer to. What then do we consider longsuffering to mean? Would three of four generations be considered longsuffering? God is not letting the guilty off from receiving God's punishment. That is the same for all generations and all who do not meet God's requirements. God is judge and it is up to us to ensure we stay within the will of God and receive his mercy. God is giving people time to "clean up their act" as we would say in modern parlance. It is in this context, we can understand the second part of the verse. NOTE: it is the wrongful acts of the parents that are allowed to continue to the third and fourth generation. "Like father, like son" has the ring of truth about it. God is not punishing the second, third and fourth generations for the sins of the first generation. God will hold to account each generation for their own sins. God is longsuffering waiting until the third and fourth generation before he steps in. Do you not think that if by the third and fourth generations, they have not cleaned up their act and stopped doing the abominable things that God hates, then those people are not going to stop, but will continue ad infinitum throughout all generations? I expect you will not answer these questions.
    You failed to address the contradictory nature of the Biblegod's long-suffering and forgiveness. On one hand the Bible says god forgives and is long-suffering and on the other hand he loses patience and kills everyone, like in the Flood story or Sodom and Gomorrah. On one hand the Biblegod says not to marry any foreign women, and on the other hand it's okay for men to keep captive virgins to satisfy their lusty desires! How contradictory is that?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The fact is Rose, you are not reading into the word of God the things that God intends us to know and learn. It is convenient for you to take the slanted view that you think builds up your case against God. The fact is, that your slanted/biased view can be torn apart, by correctly doing an exposition of each verse to get to the truth of what the verse is telling us. As in another thread; the problem is one of attitude. Unless your attitude changes and you begin to see a chink of light, you will be forever confined to your own darkness. You are locked in your own abyss, in the rooms of darkness. The fact that I can use such phrases to describe your position does not mean I believe in that myth. I do so, to make another point about the myths and lies that have been constructed by man and which you are a follower.

    All the best
    David
    My main point in exposing all the gender bias in the Bible is to show its man-made nature. It is evident that throughout history and in every culture men have been biased and that is reflected in the writings in the Bible. One of the big questions I have asked over and over again, yet have not received a credible answer to is; why should I believe the Bible was inspired by god, when it is so male-biased and full of errors?

    Why would a creator god ever allow the message he wanted to share with humankind, to be so mixed up with obvious primitive, biased man-made ideas like the Bible contains? It makes no sense whatsoever.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Last edited by Rose; 04-18-2014 at 10:09 AM.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  6. #16
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    Hello Rose

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by David M

    ..... Do you not think that if by the third and fourth generations, they have not cleaned up their act and stopped doing the abominable things that God hates, then those people are not going to stop, but will continue ad infinitum throughout all generations? I expect you will not answer these questions.
    You failed to address the contradictory nature of the Biblegod's long-suffering and forgiveness. On one hand the Bible says god forgives and is long-suffering and on the other hand he loses patience and kills everyone, like in the Flood story or Sodom and Gomorrah. On one hand the Biblegod says not to marry any foreign women, and on the other hand it's okay for men to keep captive virgins to satisfy their lusty desires! How contradictory is that?!?
    I could answer these questions. I did address the the matter and it is not contradictory. I will answer your questions, once you answer mine. I suggest you separate out the questions and then answer them. It is futile me continuing if you will not answer specific questions,



    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    My main point in exposing all the gender bias in the Bible is to show its man-made nature. It is evident that throughout history and in every culture men have been biased and that is reflected in the writings in the Bible. One of the big questions I have asked over and over again, yet have not received a credible answer to is; why should I believe the Bible was inspired by god, when it is so male-biased and full of errors?
    I know what your agenda is and the fact that you deny the Bible is God's inspired word. You can only reason that man must have written it and made the whole thing up. I doubt a fiction writer could not make up the intertwined themes and the correlation that is found by which the Bible supports itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Why would a creator god ever allow the message he wanted to share with humankind, to be so mixed up with obvious primitive, biased man-made ideas like the Bible contains? It makes no sense whatsoever.
    I agree that there is much confusion which is not helped by mistranslations and deliberately adding to and taking away that is done. It just makes the task a more difficult to uncover the truth, but the truth is still there despite the errors.
    You would not believe now under any circumstances. Jesus said as much to those who wanted a signs to prove he was the Son of God. Jesus said (Luke 16:31); If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    Not even the resurrection of Lazarus, or Jesus himself was enough to persuade the dissenters of his day.

    All the best
    David

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose

    I could answer these questions. I did address the the matter and it is not contradictory. I will answer your questions, once you answer mine. I suggest you separate out the questions and then answer them. It is futile me continuing if you will not answer specific questions.
    Hello David,

    It is a futile effort to address each specific issue, when given the Bible as a whole is so full of bias, contradictions, errors and falsehoods ... that is why the only conclusion I can come to is that the Bible is a purely human book, perfectly reflecting the mindset of the time period in which it was written.



    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I know what your agenda is and the fact that you deny the Bible is God's inspired word. You can only reason that man must have written it and made the whole thing up. I doubt a fiction writer could not make up the intertwined themes and the correlation that is found by which the Bible supports itself.
    Yes, the only conclusion that I can come to when I take the Bible as a whole, and seeing its perfect reflection in the thinking of humans is that it is entirely made up in the minds of men. Remember it wasn't just one writer who wrote the Bible, the many scribes had hundreds of years to perfect its themes and stories, and still there are many problems and missing pieces.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I agree that there is much confusion which is not helped by mistranslations and deliberately adding to and taking away that is done. It just makes the task a more difficult to uncover the truth, but the truth is still there despite the errors.
    You would not believe now under any circumstances. Jesus said as much to those who wanted a signs to prove he was the Son of God. Jesus said (Luke 16:31); If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    Not even the resurrection of Lazarus, or Jesus himself was enough to persuade the dissenters of his day.

    All the best
    David
    Why would a book so full of errors lead you to believe that it is filled with truth? I will say that the Bible does have truth in it, just as it has errors in it ... exactly what one would expect from human writers.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

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  8. #18
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    "Religion corrupts a persons morals"

    That's a flat out LIE. Meta-studies show the exact OPPOSITE. Religiosity ENHANCES a persons moral character ...

    A 2001 Meta-analysis by C.J. Baier and B.R. Wright (which looked at 60 different studies) concludes that religious people are LESS likely to engage in criminal acts of violence (or criminal activity in general) ...

    A 2006 Meta-analysis by Alexander Moreira-Almeida, Francisco Lotufo Neto and Harold G. Koering (which looked at 850 different studies) concludes that people who are MORE religious are LESS likely to use drugs or abuse alcohol (and less likely to suffer from depression or attempt suicide as well) ...

    A COMPREHENSIVE study released in 2007 by Harvard Professor Robert Putnam and University of Notre Dame associate Professor David Campbell reveals that religious people are MUCH more likely to give to charity and that 40% of regular churchgoers volunteer regularly to help the poor and elderly (compared to only 15% who NEVER attend religious services) ...

    So your assertion that "religion corrupts morals" is absolute bullshit. In fact, there are hundreds of thousands of people around the world who have CHANGED their lives for the better and credit it to their RELIGIOUS CONVERSION. Where are all the gangbangers, drug dealers and drug addicts who credit their radical change with them ABANDONING their religious beliefs??? ...

    The fact of the matter is that you're NOT the harmless smiley face atheist that you (and Richard) try and portray. You're a RADICAL anti-theist with extremely leftist views. You spout off bullshit about Christianity doing more harm than good when Christians CREATED hospitals over 1500 years ago. Christians brought LITERACY to the world. Slavery, which PREDATES Christianity (and even the bible) was abolished BY CHRISTIANS, who then influenced the rest of the world to get on board. The DEMOCRATS were too busy creating the KLU KLUX KLAN as a military wing of the Democratic party (do you even know this?) who went around terrorizing Christians who fought against discrimination against black folks. And then they turned their guns on THE CHRISTIAN CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT led by a Baptist MINISTER and the black CHURCH community.

    White geeky secularists are the biggest racists on earth. Your hero, the flaky founder of Planned Parenthood, started her organization with the goal of DEPOPULATING the black community! THIS IS YOUR HERO??? No wonder Planned Parenthood centers are overwhelmingly found in the inner cities. Matter fact, THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS ANYTHING AS "RACES" UNTIL THE SECULARIST LEANING "ENLIGHTENMENT" PERIOD. The idea of different "races" was birthed in the early 1700's. Even the theory of evolution itself was formulated under the assumption that blacks are closer (in time) to our lower beastly ancestors (and therefore "inferior"). Darwin himself was a flat out racist piece of shit (another one of your heroes) ...

    Virtually every single positive in our modern society is a NATURAL biological child of biblical Christianity. In other words, the seeds were PLANTED in the bible. That's why it was CHRISTIAN societies who gave birth to scientific advancement. That's why it was CHRISTIAN societies who abolished slavery. That's why it was CHRISTIAN societies where women were first given the same rights as men. I mean, you're not deranged, right??? Do you think it's just a coincidence that all these things were born out of CHRISTIAN societies??? Your whole argument (driven by your obvious bigotry) against biblical morality completely ignores the fact that the civil laws of ancient Israel were NOT intended to be optimal (they were TEMPORARY laws that were suited to the CIRCUMSTANCES of Israel AT THAT TIME). But the SEEDS of virtually all the positives in our modern world were PLANTED in the bible itself. And yet here you are acting as if the bible had nothing to do with it.

    And don't even bother bringing up all the wars of Christianity. Any student of history knows that over 90% of wars are TERRITORIAL disputes. But even if we go that route, atheists are the KINGS of slaughter. Look at the facts, in spite of the fact that atheists make up a small minority of the global population, as soon as they began ruling governments, they slaughtered over 100 MILLION people in a mere century (Christians have been running governments for nearly 2,000 years). Why wasn't it the Christians who brought out the body bags??? I mean, we didn't just disappear off the globe during the 20th century, right? So why was it YOUR godless team who went on a bloodthirsty killing spree on an unimaginable scale???

    So which is it? Does religion corrupt the morals of man or does ATHEISM corrupt the morals of man??? ...

    You have Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot

    We have William Wilberforce, Martin Luther King, Gandhi and Mother Teresa

    Btw, if you want to claim that religion corrupts our morals in the sense that it makes us want to "lie" to support our views, then that's nothing more than a SUBJECTIVE ad hominem attack. Furthermore, studies show that atheists are the LEAST trusted members of society. So people are more likely to view ATHEISTS as UNTRUSTWORTHY (not religious people).

    BINI (The Mystic Meanie).
    Last edited by Gambini; 04-19-2014 at 09:41 PM.

  9. #19
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    Originally Posted by Gambini
    "Your hero, the flaky founder of Planned Parenthood, started her organization with the goal of DEPOPULATING the black community! THIS IS YOUR HERO??? No wonder Planned Parenthood centers are overwhelmingly found in the inner cities"..."THE CHRISTIAN CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT led by a Baptist MINISTER and the black CHURCH community"..."We have William Wilberforce, [Martin Luther King], Gandhi and Mother Teresa."


    Now "That's a flat out LIE!"

    Because it does a real disservice that dishonors both Margaret Sanger's and Martin Luther King's legacy. This is what Martin Luther King said in 1966, the year Sanger died:

    "There is a striking kinship between our movement and Margaret Sanger's early efforts...Our sure beginning in the struggle for equality by nonviolent direct action may not have been so resolute without the tradition established by Margaret Sanger and people like her."

    To the Contrary, She opened some of the first clinics in Harlem to bring health services to the African American community, and worked closely with such African American activists as W.E.B. DuBois and Adam Clayton Powell.



    Sanger was about as far from a Reactionary as could be imagined- note her opposition to militarism, her ardent feminism and activism on behalf of working-class women, her support for labor and the rights of immigrants, all of which she makes very clear.

    Sanger saw a woman's right to control her own body (specifically her reproductive system). It took more than forty years before a new wave of feminism, along with advances in medical technology, made this attainable.

    Of course, this is still the fault-line which runs through the topic of women and religion. The themes which Sanger raises still arouse vehement debate, and pertain to contemporary issues which would have seemed unimaginable to Sanger.

    Fundamentalist Religion of all stripes is a Primary Impediment to the Progress of Women, as well as Civilization! Then, as now, religious doctrine was used as a justification for the dehumanization of women, depriving them of civil, human, economic and political rights, even denying them the right to worship alongside men.

    From a 21st Century perspective it is both astounding how far we have progressed, [and dismaying how little has changed!]

    Last edited by SOPHIA-BAPHOMET777; 04-20-2014 at 04:11 AM.
    The Meaning of Life is to Eat the Dam Apple! - "Wisdom comes from asking questions."

    I am the Demon Child of Wisdom and Understanding.
    I am HER tantric monk and SHE my Left-Hand Priestess.
    I perch on HER brink, waiting for a summons from the Queen.
    I dance in response to HER teasing and testing.
    I leap into Her depth, HER perfect and Horrible Mystery!

    לילית


  10. #20
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    Originally Posted by Gambini
    Look at the facts, in spite of the fact that atheists make up a small minority of the global population, as soon as they began ruling governments, they slaughtered over 100 MILLION people in a mere century (Christians have been running governments for nearly 2,000 years). Why wasn't it the Christians who brought out the body bags??? I mean, we didn't just disappear off the globe during the 20th century, right? So why was it YOUR godless team who went on a bloodthirsty killing spree on an unimaginable scale???
    But, in point of fact, we can determine- Objectively- that not holding a belief (atheism, materialism) can never logically be the cause of an action, while holding a belief (theism) or ideology can be the cause of an action.

    People take actions [on the basis of what they believe], not what they don’t believe!

    Stalin, for example, never committed his crimes in the name of atheism or in the name of materialism (in other words, in the name of not-believing-in-god or not-believing-in-worlds-other-than-the-physical).

    He committed them [in the name of Beliefs] of his: the belief in a political ideology, and a belief that it is appropriate to use violent force to impose that political ideology. The comparison fails because belief can be the cause of action, while non-belief can never logically be the cause of action.

    You’re making the rather common mistake of conflating atheism with the belief that religion is harmful (anti-theism) [or with a desire to make fun of religion].

    You're further conflating anti-theism with violent anti-theism. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods. That's it! There are plenty of atheists who do not think that religion is bad. Many atheists admire the charitable actions inspired by religions or even work for religious institutions (almost always in a secular capacity, of course).

    Perhaps the majority of atheists, though, are indifferent to religions. They simply live their lives and prefer to be left alone. Now indeed, some atheists hold a belief commonly called anti-theism- the belief that religion is harmful. This is a belief- in addition to and on top of their not-believing-in-gods.

    [And just to be clear, it's not a "belief" in the sense of being taken on faith- it's a position well-informed by evidence.] It is this belief that distinguishes these atheists from atheists who are okay with religion and from those atheists who are indifferent to it.

    Yes, I am an anti-theist- and, on top of that, i’m someone who actually enjoys making fun of the stupidity and insanity of all Fundamentalist Religion- but anti-theism isn’t an *aspect* or *characteristic* of my skepticism or atheism. So indeed, my anti-theism (that is, my *belief* that fundamentalst religion is harmful, stupid, worthy of mockery!) informs my actions because it’s a *belief*.

    My skepticism and/or atheism consists entirely of the fact that I don’t simply don't believe in any primitive creator gods. And that's all it means. Any beliefs that I hold are extra, whether it be the belief that religion can be a good thing, the belief that religion is awfully comforting, or the belief that religion is harmful and should be opposed.

    Lenin's, Stalin’s, Mao's and Pol Pot's *belief* in Communism- and additionally their *belief* that it’s right to forcefully impose one’s ideology- motivated his (very different) actions. It's *belief* that motivates action! But what doesn’t motivate action for either me, or the atheist down the street is our atheism, which is a *Non-belief.*

    Again, the only thing that atheists have in common is that they don't believe in creator gods. There are atheists who would dislike mockery of religion, atheists who would be horrified by Stalin's atrocities, and atheists who barely care about world religions and think it’s stupid or a waste of time to attack them.

    As a result, one cannot logically lump them all together by saying, Atheism causes atrocity. It doesn't. It's *beliefs* held by *some* who happen to be atheists that *can* lead to various actions.

    In other words, I'm suggesting that this issue is far more nuanced than you have expressed and that it would do you some good to be more precise and sophisticated in your thinking on the matter.

    So whether an Atheist kills a believer in the name of Communism (just for example), or a Christian believer kills an atheist for the ideal of Theocracy, [the common root is the desire to control minds and wills!]

    This is true even on an individual level. The issue is always "You will believe (or not believe) as I dictate. Both are Abominations!

    Only- Religion, Fundamentalism, Political Ideologies like Communism, Personal Philosophies, etc.- can serve as motivators to action, [but non-beliefs (like atheism or materialism) can never logically serve as the cause of an action.]

    [*NOT*] believing in something simply cannot be the logical cause of an action.



    Last edited by SOPHIA-BAPHOMET777; 04-20-2014 at 01:27 AM.
    The Meaning of Life is to Eat the Dam Apple! - "Wisdom comes from asking questions."

    I am the Demon Child of Wisdom and Understanding.
    I am HER tantric monk and SHE my Left-Hand Priestess.
    I perch on HER brink, waiting for a summons from the Queen.
    I dance in response to HER teasing and testing.
    I leap into Her depth, HER perfect and Horrible Mystery!

    לילית


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