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  1. #1
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    Vulnerabilities of the Sexes

    This thread discuss the vulnerabilities of the sexes. I hope it will not turn Rose into a frenzy.

    Looking at Genesis3:

    The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

    “Cursed are you above all livestock
    and all wild animals!
    You will crawl on your belly
    and you will eat dust
    all the days of your life.
    15 And I will put enmity
    between you and the woman,
    and between your offspring[a] and hers;
    he will crush[b] your head,
    and you will strike his heel.”

    16 To the woman he said,

    “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
    with painful labor you will give birth to children.
    Your desire will be for your husband,
    and he will rule over you.”


    17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
    “Cursed is the ground because of you;
    through painful toil you will eat food from it
    all the days of your life.
    18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
    and you will eat the plants of the field.
    19 By the sweat of your brow
    you will eat your food
    until you return to the ground,
    since from it you were taken;
    for dust you are
    and to dust you will return.”


    It is noted that Eve was deceived by the serpent which represents evil. And Adam was indirectly deceived by Eve. It can then be deduced that Women are more vulnerable directly and men are more vulnerable indirectly towards crimes/sin committed against them perhaps instigated/related by women. As such it was commanded that Adam is to "rule " over Eve. and Eve is to desire her husband. The word "rule" does not necessary mean dominion but rather to protect, to provide, to prevent, to lead, to control (in the positive sense). Desire does not necessary means love but also to listen, obey and accept this "rule". This commandment is to reduce the vulnerabilities of the female which is the weaker sex. Therefoere throughout history and cultures, it is always the duty of the husband to protect and provide for the wife and family. Because of their obedience to God, both Adam and Eve were punished equally as stated. Because of this incident, Evil, the offspring of Satan and Good the offspring of Adam and Eve will always be in contention. Because of the violation of the serpent with Eve, the offsprings of Eve and Adam will be both good and evil. Death is also the punishment for all.

    Females are generally more vulnerable to crimes and violent crimes commited against them. This is obvious when looking at statistics of male violence against women.

    See vilence against women:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_women

    They are also vulnerable to infections, depression, alcoholism etc. compared to men. This is why female infants as stated in Deuteronomy requires twice more care than male infants. Ask any mothers or parents and generally they will tell you that it is easier to raise a male child compared to a female child. This is also supported by articals in google:

    http://www.google.com.sg/search?hl=e...19.WiqQ2aS0Ev4

    See also Sex differences in crimes:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime

    See also Are Boys easier to raise than Girls?

    http://www.circleofmoms.com/welcome-...n-girls-259340

    God Bless.
    Last edited by CWH; 04-01-2014 at 05:43 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post

    It is noted that Eve was deceived by the serpent which represents evil. And Adam was indirectly deceived by Eve. It can then be deduced that Women are more vulnerable directly and men are more vulnerable indirectly towards crimes/sin committed against them perhaps instigated/related by women. As such it was commanded that Adam is to "rule " over Eve. and Eve is to desire her husband. The word "rule" does not necessary mean dominion but rather to protect, to provide, to prevent, to lead, to control (in the positive sense). Desire does not necessary means love but also to listen, obey and accept this "rule". This commandment is to reduce the vulnerabilities of the female which is the weaker sex. Therefoere throughout history and cultures, it is always the duty of the husband to protect and provide for the wife and family. Because of their obedience to God, both Adam and Eve were punished equally as stated. Because of this incident, Evil, the offspring of Satan and Good the offspring of Adam and Eve will always be in contention. Because of the violation of the serpent with Eve, the offsprings of Eve and Adam will be both good and evil. Death is also the punishment for all.
    Hello Cheow

    Since today is April Fools Day I was hoping this post was a joke, but I'm afraid it's not.

    It would be nice if you could get your biblical facts straight, before you start making untruthful claims. The commandment in Genesis which declares that the man is to rule over the woman has nothing whatsoever to do with your invented idea of "reducing vulnerabilities of the female". The only thing women are more vulnerable to is the abuses of men who are generally larger and physically stronger then women. No one in their right mind would ever put the fox in charge of the hen house, which is why we know that the Bible and it's god were created in the minds of men, who wanted to rule and dominate women.



    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    They are also vulnerable to infections, depression, alcoholism etc. compared to men. This is why female infants as stated in Deuteronomy requires twice more care than male infants. Ask any mothers or parents and generally they will tell you that it is easier to raise a male child compared to a female child. This is also supported by articals in google:



    God Bless.
    Once again, it would be nice if you could get your biblical facts straight!

    The verse your are referring to is not found in Deuteronomy, rather it is found in Leviticus.

    Lev.12:1-5 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days (7 days); according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days (33 days); she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks (14 days), as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days (66 days).


    Secondly, these verses say absolutely NOTHING about female infants requiring more care than males! What the verses do say is that the woman ONLY is the one who is UNCLEAN twice as long and needs to be PURIFIED twice as long if she gives birth to a female baby. Not one word is said, or implied about the female baby needing more care!

    Why do you make stuff up out of whole cloth? If the writers of the Bible had wanted to say something other than what is written, they could have easily have done so. The reason for the bias against females is well known, they were considered of less value than males ... consequently it took a longer time to be purified of their uncleaness.

    Are you familiar with the verse that says every male that is born is holy? This proves that the writers of the Bible thought males had more value than females.
    Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord [Num.3:13], Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)



    Nice to be chatting with you,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Cheow

    Since today is April Fools Day I was hoping this post was a joke, but I'm afraid it's not.

    It would be nice if you could get your biblical facts straight, before you start making untruthful claims. The commandment in Genesis which declares that the man is to rule over the woman has nothing whatsoever to do with your invented idea of "reducing vulnerabilities of the female". The only thing women are more vulnerable to is the abuses of men who are generally larger and physically stronger then women. No one in their right mind would ever put the fox in charge of the hen house, which is why we know that the Bible and it's god were created in the minds of men, who wanted to rule and dominate women.


    Once again, it would be nice if you could get your biblical facts straight!

    The verse your are referring to is not found in Deuteronomy, rather it is found in Leviticus.

    Lev.12:1-5 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days (7 days); according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days (33 days); she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks (14 days), as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days (66 days).


    Secondly, these verses say absolutely NOTHING about female infants requiring more care than males! What the verses do say is that the woman ONLY is the one who is UNCLEAN twice as long and needs to be PURIFIED twice as long if she gives birth to a female baby. Not one word is said, or implied about the female baby needing more care!

    Why do you make stuff up out of whole cloth? If the writers of the Bible had wanted to say something other than what is written, they could have easily have done so. The reason for the bias against females is well known, they were considered of less value than males ... consequently it took a longer time to be purified of their uncleaness.

    Are you familiar with the verse that says every male that is born is holy? This proves that the writers of the Bible thought males had more value than females.
    Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord [Num.3:13], Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)



    Nice to be chatting with you,
    Rose
    Hi Rose, Good day to you.

    I never believe in gender bias in the Bible because it makes no sense. Imagine yourself as a Creator, what benefits do you gained by making a gender superior over another? However, you will gained if you make each gender worked harmoniously together each with their own endowed properties for a common goal. Males and females working together for the family and the kingdom of heaven. Just like a manager will be useless without his workers i.e. helpers. Therefore helpers are just as important as the manager both working together for the good of the company. A bad manager will ultimately ruined it. Yes, a manager "rules" over his workers but a good manager will look after his workers will to ensure the well-being of the company. Likewise good men will protect and look after their wives and families well; unlike evil men who only wants to dominate over them. Look at Abraham, Moses, Jesus, did they condemned females? No, so why should God did otherwise? I know of ECFs who condemned females but these were their own opinions as they were not God-inspired. This is contrary to what the scriptures said, and they never blame Eve but Adam instead for bringing sin and death to the world because Adam being the stronger sex failed to protect Eve from being deceived:

    Romans 5:12
    [ Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ ] Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

    Romans 5:14
    Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

    1 Corinthians 15:22
    For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.


    A female child needs more care than a male as they are more vulnerable to infections; have you read the links that I have posted? It is said in Leviticus not Deuteronomy (Yes you are correct, I am just testing you) that a male is more worth than a female. Well, it is fair in the olden days - equal pay for equal work. A male worker is more productive when he can do labour jobs than a female who can only do domestic jobs.

    Do you know that a female is also considered holy? The Holy Spirit is considered female, see:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_of_the_Holy_Spirit

    Excerpt:
    In Hebrew the word for Spirit (רוה) (ruach) is feminine, (as is the word "shekhinah", which is used in the Hebrew Bible to indicate the presence of God, سكينة Sakinah in Arabic language, a word mentioned six times in the Quran).
    In the Syriac language too, the grammatically feminine word ruah means "spirit", and writers in that language, both orthodox and Gnostic, used maternal images when speaking of the Holy Spirit.
    Last edited by CWH; 04-01-2014 at 11:19 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Hi Rose, Good day to you.

    I never believe in gender bias in the Bible because it makes no sense. Imagine yourself as a Creator, what benefits do you gained by making a gender superior over another? However, you will gained if you make each gender worked harmoniously together each with their own endowed properties for a common goal. Males and females working together for the family and the kingdom of heaven. Just like a manager will be useless without his workers i.e. helpers. Therefore helpers are just as important as the manager both working together for the good of the company. A bad manager will ultimately ruined it. Yes, a manager "rules" over his workers but a good manager will look after his workers will to ensure the well-being of the company. Likewise good men will protect and look after their wives and families well; unlike evil men who only wants to dominate over them. Look at Abraham, Moses, Jesus, did they condemned females? No, so why should God did otherwise? I know of ECFs who condemned females but these were their own opinions as they were not God-inspired. This is contrary to what the scriptures said, and they never blame Eve but Adam instead for bringing sin and death to the world because Adam being the stronger sex failed to protect Eve from being deceived:
    Hello Cheow,

    You are right in saying that gender bias makes no sense, but wrong in stating that it is not found in the Bible. From cover to cover, the Bible is filled with gender bias ... you need to read my article Gender Bias in the Bible, everything I quote comes directly from Scripture. You might not like gender bias, but please don't deny that the Bible is filled with it.

    One of the main reasons I no longer believe in the Biblegod is because of his extreme gender bias, at every turn his actions exactly reflect those of men. It is the nature of man to want to be in control and have power over others, especially women, so their god reflects that.

    Moses most definitely discriminated against females and so did Abraham. Jesus on the other hand condemned females in a round-about way, by upholding all the biased and discriminatory laws contained in the Old Testament.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Cheow,

    You are right in saying that gender bias makes no sense, but wrong in stating that it is not found in the Bible. From cover to cover, the Bible is filled with gender bias ... you need to read my article Gender Bias in the Bible, everything I quote comes directly from Scripture. You might not like gender bias, but please don't deny that the Bible is filled with it.

    One of the main reasons I no longer believe in the Biblegod is because of his extreme gender bias, at every turn his actions exactly reflect those of men. It is the nature of man to want to be in control and have power over others, especially women, so their god reflects that.

    Moses most definitely discriminated against females and so did Abraham. Jesus on the other hand condemned females in a round-about way, by upholding all the biased and discriminatory laws contained in the Old Testament.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Thank you for agreeing with me that it makes no sense for God to have gender bias, as such then your concept that the Bible is filled with gender bias is flawed. Your article "Gender Bias in the Bible" is flawed. I will refute it in the Christian Apologetics section.

    Meanwhile, consider the main refutations in the nutshell:

    Women are considered the property of the man. /COLOR]No, Evil men considered women as property of men. Good men considered women to be protected and care like their own property.

    Women are ruled by men solely based on their gender. No, evil men will want to dominate over women. Good men want to lead over them in order to protect or support them. Just like good government do not oppress the people but govern with justice and care for their people.

    Women do not share equal rights with men. No, Both sexes share equal rights based on their own endowed abilities and characteristics as created by God by doiing their own natural roles. Mae and women were not made equal, the goal is to use their diferent abilities and characterisitics to work together for the family and to achieve the will of God. Equal rights do not mean doing everything the same. Equal rights mean each doing their own parts based on ther own abilities to achieve a common goal; just like workers in a company.

    Women are considered of less value than men. No, the value of the sexes is based on equal pay for equal work. This is a fair system.
    Progeny is claimed to be carried through the loins of the male. Both sexes require each other to procreate, as such, they are on equal terms.

    The Biblegod is exclusively portrayed with “male” attributes.
    The Bible God also have female attributes; same as humans. It is generally claimed that God is sexless.

    Lev.12:1-5 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days (7 days); according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days (33 days); she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks (14 days), as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days (66 days).
    Precisely, the case that female infants are more susceptible to infections than males and therefore requires more nursing care during the confinement. During the confinement , mothers used the time to recuperate and nurse the baby. Think, why should the mother be unclean for 7 + 33 days (40 days) if it is a male infant and 14 + 66 days (80 days) if it is a female child? OIsn't this more aof a bias against the male infant? Such longer nursing ensures that female infants survived.

    God Bless.
    Last edited by CWH; 04-03-2014 at 05:16 AM.
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    Seek and You shall find,
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Thank you for agreeing with me that it makes no sense for God to have gender bias, as such then your concept that the Bible is filled with gender bias is flawed. Your article "Gender Bias in the Bible" is flawed. I will refute it in the Christian Apologetics section.

    Meanwhile, consider the main refutations in the nutshell:

    Women are considered the property of the man. /COLOR]No, Evil men considered women as property of men. Good men considered women to be protected and care like their own property.

    Women are ruled by men solely based on their gender. No, evil men will want to dominate over women. Good men want to lead over them in order to protect or support them. Just like good government do not oppress the people but govern with justice and care for their people.

    Women do not share equal rights with men. No, Both sexes share equal rights based on their own endowed abilities and characteristics as created by God by doiing their own natural roles. Mae and women were not made equal, the goal is to use their diferent abilities and characterisitics to work together for the family and to achieve the will of God. Equal rights do not mean doing everything the same. Equal rights mean each doing their own parts based on ther own abilities to achieve a common goal; just like workers in a company.

    Women are considered of less value than men. No, the value of the sexes is based on equal pay for equal work. This is a fair system.
    Progeny is claimed to be carried through the loins of the male. Both sexes require each other to procreate, as such, they are on equal terms.

    The Biblegod is exclusively portrayed with “male” attributes.
    The Bible God also have female attributes; same as humans. It is generally claimed that God is sexless.
    Hello Cheow

    I am not talking about good men versus evil men, rather I am speaking of what the Bible says. The words I said, which you quoted in green ... are all contained in the Bible.

    "Women are considered the property of the man."

    "
    Women are ruled by men solely based on their gender."

    "Women do not share equal rights with men."

    "Women are considered of less value than men."

    "Progeny is claimed to be carried through the loins of the male."

    "The Biblegod is exclusively portrayed with “male” attributes."



    None of the above statements can be refuted, because the Bible claims them all!



    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Lev.12:1-5 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days (7 days); according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days (33 days); she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks (14 days), as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days (66 days).
    Precisely, the case that female infants are more susceptible to infections than males and therefore requires more nursing care during the confinement. During the confinement , mothers used the time to recuperate and nurse the baby. Think, why should the mother be unclean for 7 + 33 days (40 days) if it is a male infant and 14 + 66 days (80 days) if it is a female child? OIsn't this more aof a bias against the male infant? Such longer nursing ensures that female infants survived.

    God Bless.
    Once again, the versus in Leviticus say absolutely nothing about the extra time being given for the care of the female infant! Both male and female babies stayed with their mothers until they were weaned. The sole reason given for the separation was for purification and cleansing of the mother ... not the baby! The mother was considered unclean longer after the birth of a female, period. You are just making stuff up, because you don't like the obvious gender bias of the passage. In my argument for gender bias I specifically stick with what the Bible says, I don't make stuff up!

    We all know that gender bias exists among men, so that is why I contend that the Bible was written by men. Men gave male attributes to the god they created and endowed him with misogynistic qualities to reflect their own male-bias ... it's as simple as that.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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    Hello Rose
    In the "world", women do not get a fair deal from men, because men are generally stronger physically and are more prominent in business matters. Men appear in the majority, even though women are approximately 50% of the population as it is now. That might not have always been the case and women could have numbered more than men.
    Men do have a prejudice against women in business. As we know, some women can be physically stronger than men, but the majority of women are not. Women are designed to nurture children, so the wife can bring up the children, while the husband takes on the manual tasks to feed the family. Husband and wife are a partnership and form a single unit complimenting the strengths and weaknesses of each other. This was God's plan, but men and women follow their own ways.

    In the society in which we live, which is still the Babylonian system going back to the time of the Tower or Babel, men do have a bias against. Women have equal intelligence as men, and some women are physically stronger than men and women attain to higher positions than men. Women might not be in the majority in a predominantly man's world, but some women play to their strengths and can achieve high positions in business and in government. We have seen it happen. The question is; why are women not so assertive as men? Your gripe should not be with God, but with men and women. It is not a weakness for a woman to accept that she is not head of the household. The woman is not given the responsibilities that God has placed on the man. When Jesus was given the power of God, he still saw himself in the weakness of a man. (Phil 2:6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Women should do likewise and accept their role in the sight of God is a less responsible role than the man has. That is why the role of priest was given to men.

    In the unit of the family, God sees men and women as having the same value. They are one flesh and cannot be divided. As said above, the wife's role is to nurture the children. The body of female is designed different from the male body and that (let's say) accounts for the physical strength difference.

    If you think that by God introducing an echelon, he has introduced bias, then I cannot change your mind on that. I accept a heirarchy and an order, but I do not see that as bias towards, or against. Women are placed fourth alongside the man. If we see the order on the same level, then Jesus is on the same level as any other man, and women are on the same level as men. Only by putting the order where Jesus is under God, and man is under Jesus and woman is under man, does it appear the woman has been placed last and is beneath man. I do not think this is the case in terms of human value. In terms of headship and ruler-ship, and when applied in spiritual terms, there is an echelon and so the man does come before the woman. Once roles are accepted, there is no need to consider the roles as biased. If you are born a female and you wish you had been born a man, that is tough. It goes the other way as well. In whatever lot we have been cast, we are taught to be content. That is why we are also taught to set our minds on the heavenly things which are from above and are of more value than the things we have on earth in this life. Both men and women have the opportunity to be given the most valuable gift anyone can be given.

    In terms of God's echelon, the man was made first. The woman was made next as the help-meat for man and also necessary for giving birth to children. Had God only ever wanted a relationship with one man, he need only have created Adam and could have created him sexless. Would Adam have failed the same test, if Eve had not been created? How would God have redeemed Adam as the sole human, had he failed as the only human alive? The plan of God was for man to procreate and multiply and fill the earth. It is going to be inevitable that a man or a woman would fail the test at some time. It was proven at the beginning that almost all men and women will fail. No man or woman, it would appear, could ever pass the test. God has been vindicated, because God caused a man to be born, who remained sinless. Hence, in the first man Adam all die, but in the second man Christ, all can be made alive. Herein there is an order as told us by the apostle Paul; (1 Cor 15:22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    The "they" include women, who have not been biassed against. It could turn out that more women could be chosen to be in the Kingdom of God, because women are less evil than men; who knows?

    If we are scoring evil, some women can be more evil than men. There is no bias when it come to whether a man can more evil than women; they have the same capacity to be evil. Jezebel was an evil woman. Women might be the weaker sex physically, but women have sexual alure that they can use as a weapon of strength if they so chose. Samson fell for the lure of Jezebel and finally caved in to her nagging.

    I will add my comments to each point on your list

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post

    "Women are ruled by men solely based on their gender." DM - I could do with an example from you to see what you mean. Men rule men and women rule women and women can rule men as equally as men rule women. This can be seen at any level

    "Women do not share equal rights with men." DM - We can find examples in the Bible where that is not the case; (Deut 15:12) And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee. Women do have equal rights if you look for examples

    "Women are considered of less value than men." DM - Leviticus chapter 26 deals estimations placed on those males and females who vow themselves to the LORD. In this case, the male has to pay more than the female. That is the reverse of what you are saying. The man has to pay more. It is not a value received by the man and is more than the female has to pay. If the estimation is that the person is poor, it does not matter whether they are male or female. (8 ) But if he (or her) be poorer than thy estimation, then he shall present himself before the priest, and the priest shall value him (or her); according to his (or her) ability that vowed shall the priest value him (or her).
    We note how the text refers to male and female then just refers to "he" or "him" when applying to both male and female. The text would be better rendered "them" or "they".


    "Progeny is claimed to be carried through the loins of the male." DM - that can be as a result of the echelon set by God. For the progeny to take the name of the woman, maybe God should have made woman first. Why God did not make woman first is probably because of what we see in nature and the sexual act of the sperm passing from male to female. The male is seen as the giver or provider. The egg does not pass from female to male or in the this case, woman to man. God is the giver of all life, so I see that man is the next giver in line. That is a reason I can see. It might not be God's reason, I am not as wise as God.

    "The Biblegod is exclusively portrayed with “male” attributes." DM - God is ONE, God has no gender. We use the male pronoun "he" when we could use the neuter "it". God is presented as the Father figure and is the father to Jesus. God was the giver of sperm to fertilize the egg inside Mary. God took on the role of Father and was the Heavenly Father to whom Jesus was in constant prayer. We have the echelon set up and I cannot see how it could work better, if you want to put the woman first in line.


    None of the above statements can be refuted, because the Bible claims them all! DM - I am not setting out to refute them, or I would simply say; "I refute them". I am trying to explain why your statements are not as absolute as you think they are.

    All the best
    David

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    Thanks David,

    You said it so well as to why God has no gender bias. Rose article is flawed. If Rose wants to be credible in her article on Gender Bias in the Bible, she has to answer 4 major issues:

    1. If she is the Creator, why must she create bias against the female? What are the benefits? It is like someone who made a male and female doll but hate the female doll; why made the female doll in the first place?

    2. Rose needs to address God's bias against the male. We all know that God also have bias against the male, why didn't she mentioned those as well in her article? Why must God killed all the men except the 32,000 virgins? Why did God also punished Adam as well if God is biased against woman i.e. Eve?

    3. If God is biased against female, why did God made male and female in His image? If he is biased against male or female, He is biased against Hs own image (Genesis 1:27); a slap in His own face. Men and Women are equally heirs to the gift of life(1 Peter 3:7; Galatians 3:28).

    4. Why did God create distinctions in male and female?

    If Rose thinks that the Bible is written by men; that is her own opinion. Why don't she thinks that the US is biased against women since the US government is run mainly by men?

    See wiki: Are Men and Women Equal in Christianity?:

    http://delveintojesus.com/Articles/8...istianity.aspx

    The Bible teaches that men and women are equal in God’s sight. Both women and men were created in God’s image. Genesis 1:27 says, “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.” The New Testament affirms that men and women are equally heirs of the gift of life (1 Peter 3:7; Galatians 3:28).

    Sadly, in our fallen world, women have often been dominated or demeaned by men. That’s why Jesus’ treatment of women surprised the men of His day. Instead of treating women as inferior, Jesus responded to them with compassion and respect. Jesus set an example for His church to follow. It’s not surprising that where Christianity has spread, the value of women has consistently been elevated.

    While God created men and women to be equal, He did not design us to be identical. He made men and women to be complementary to one another (Genesis 2:18). Our worth is the same, but our work is somewhat different in the home and the church.

    In our church, we follow the instructions given in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and appoint godly men to be pastors and elders. Women provide leadership in a wide range of teaching and caring ministries. We seek to be partners in serving Christ. Our desire is to see each man and women enter a personal relationship with God, through Jesus, and develop healthy, productive relationships with one another in the church.


    God Bless.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  9. #9
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose
    In the "world", women do not get a fair deal from men, because men are generally stronger physically and are more prominent in business matters. Men appear in the majority, even though women are approximately 50% of the population as it is now. That might not have always been the case and women could have numbered more than men.
    Men do have a prejudice against women in business. As we know, some women can be physically stronger than men, but the majority of women are not. Women are designed to nurture children, so the wife can bring up the children, while the husband takes on the manual tasks to feed the family. Husband and wife are a partnership and form a single unit complimenting the strengths and weaknesses of each other. This was God's plan, but men and women follow their own ways.
    Hello David

    You are right! Women do not get a fair deal in the world, but neither do they get a fair deal in the Bible. The Bible is filled with gender bias against women dictated by its god.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    If you think that by God introducing an echelon, he has introduced bias, then I cannot change your mind on that. I accept a heirarchy and an order, but I do not see that as bias towards, or against. Women are placed fourth alongside the man. If we see the order on the same level, then Jesus is on the same level as any other man, and women are on the same level as men. Only by putting the order where Jesus is under God, and man is under Jesus and woman is under man, does it appear the woman has been placed last and is beneath man. I do not think this is the case in terms of human value. In terms of headship and ruler-ship, and when applied in spiritual terms, there is an echelon and so the man does come before the woman. Once roles are accepted, there is no need to consider the roles as biased. If you are born a female and you wish you had been born a man, that is tough. It goes the other way as well. In whatever lot we have been cast, we are taught to be content. That is why we are also taught to set our minds on the heavenly things which are from above and are of more value than the things we have on earth in this life. Both men and women have the opportunity to be given the most valuable gift anyone can be given.


    All the best
    David
    Of course you don't see it as bias against women because you are a man and you like your biblical position of headship! Men throughout history have used the Bible as a god given club with which to beat women into submission. All the justifications in the world will never change that fact!

    Originally Posted by Rose

    "Women are ruled by men solely based on their gender." DM - I could do with an example from you to see what you mean. Men rule men and women rule women and women can rule men as equally as men rule women. This can be seen at any level Rose - I have given many, many examples in my article of women being dominated and controlled by men solely because of gender. A good place to start is Gen. 3:16 were we see that all women are cursed because Eve was female.

    "Women do not share equal rights with men." DM - We can find examples in the Bible where that is not the case; (Deut 15:12) And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee. Women do have equal rights if you look for examples Rose - Of course there are instances in the Bible where women share equal rights with men, but that does not justify all the cases where women are denied their equal rights because of their gender.

    "Women are considered of less value than men." DM - Leviticus chapter 26 deals estimations placed on those males and females who vow themselves to the LORD. In this case, the male has to pay more than the female. That is the reverse of what you are saying. The man has to pay more. It is not a value received by the man and is more than the female has to pay. If the estimation is that the person is poor, it does not matter whether they are male or female. (8 ) But if he (or her) be poorer than thy estimation, then he shall present himself before the priest, and the priest shall value him (or her); according to his (or her) ability that vowed shall the priest value him (or her).
    We note how the text refers to male and female then just refers to "he" or "him" when applying to both male and female. The text would be better rendered "them" or "they".
    Rose - The male is valued at a higher price so he pays more.

    "Progeny is claimed to be carried through the loins of the male." DM - that can be as a result of the echelon set by God. For the progeny to take the name of the woman, maybe God should have made woman first. Why God did not make woman first is probably because of what we see in nature and the sexual act of the sperm passing from male to female. The male is seen as the giver or provider. The egg does not pass from female to male or in the this case, woman to man. God is the giver of all life, so I see that man is the next giver in line. That is a reason I can see. It might not be God's reason, I am not as wise as God. Rose - You are trying to justify the ignorance of primitive men who thought that men carried the little Homunculus in their loins and women were only the soil where the baby grew.

    "The Biblegod is exclusively portrayed with “male” attributes." DM - God is ONE, God has no gender. We use the male pronoun "he" when we could use the neuter "it". God is presented as the Father figure and is the father to Jesus. God was the giver of sperm to fertilize the egg inside Mary. God took on the role of Father and was the Heavenly Father to whom Jesus was in constant prayer. We have the echelon set up and I cannot see how it could work better, if you want to put the woman first in line. Rose - The male pronoun is used because god is called father and husband throughout the Bible.


    None of the above statements can be refuted, because the Bible claims them all! DM - I am not setting out to refute them, or I would simply say; "I refute them". I am trying to explain why your statements are not as absolute as you think they are.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  10. #10
    Join Date
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    Daytona
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    When Lot's wife looked back, God turned her into a block of salt! Sure taught her a lesson, didn't he? Was she sorry for having disobeyed? Excuse my sarcasm, please.

    We aren't saying God couldn't do it--nothing is impossible for Him, but why would a God of Love inflict such a bizarre punishment? And Jesus said "Remember Lot's wife", Lk17:62, confirming He knew what was written. Earlier, in Lk9:62, he had had cautioned: "No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God".
    She had turned her head (a physical action), but "looking back" figuratively is something else again. Paul wrote: "Forgetting those things that are past..." Phil 3:13.

    We must see her as a precept example of how Christians are to become the salt of the earth and pillars in their community. As the first person in Scripture to 'become salt' she epitomizes not only that we mustn't disobey God, but that He expects us to flavor the earth wherever we go.
    "Whatsoever things were written aforetime, were written for our learning", Romans 15:4.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

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