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  1. #11
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    Moved to new topic...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post


    First, generally speaking I do not believe in inflicting physical punishment as in striking a child, the exception is giving a small child a swat on the behind, or a slap on the hand. Violence only teaches violence and it's a hold over from a barbaric and primitive way of thinking.

    Secondly, I do not believe in the death penalty, even though I know there are people who deserve death for the crimes they commit. The taking of a life is final, and there have been far too many cases where errors have been made in convicting the wrong person of a crime.

    Thank you for allowing me to change the topic.

    I am graciously bowing out of any more 'god', 'religion', or 'bible' topics within this forum. I find that trying to discuss 'god, religion, or the bible' here is like running on a treadmill - it gets my heart pumping faster, increases my rate of breathing, and makes me sweat – but in the end it doesn't really get me anywhere.

    As such I have taken the liberty of creating a new topic thread for us to continue discussing some moral issues - without the need of dragging religion into it. I know that I can't stop others from doing so, but it won't be me. I'm done running on that treadmill.


    MORALITY; CORPORAL PUNISHMENT & THE DEATH PENALTY
    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7584#post67584
    Respectfully,
    Mark
    An unsupported statement is not an argument; it is only an opinion.
    Eschew obfuscation.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    Thank you for allowing me to change the topic.

    I am graciously bowing out of any more 'god', 'religion', or 'bible' topics within this forum. I find that trying to discuss 'god, religion, or the bible' here is like running on a treadmill - it gets my heart pumping faster, increases my rate of breathing, and makes me sweat – but in the end it doesn't really get me anywhere.

    As such I have taken the liberty of creating a new topic thread for us to continue discussing some moral issues - without the need of dragging religion into it. I know that I can't stop others from doing so, but it won't be me. I'm done running on that treadmill.


    MORALITY; CORPORAL PUNISHMENT & THE DEATH PENALTY
    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...7584#post67584
    Hello Mark,

    It does seem a little odd that you being a Christian, want to discuss moral issues without using your faith as a basis for your morality. Most Christians ground their morality in their belief in god, so how can you separate the two?

    As for me, I believe that our morality is grounded in the Golden and Silver Rules ... all people should be treated with equal human rights and any violation of those rights is an immoral act. Simple as that

    Kind regards,
    Rose
    Last edited by Rose; 10-20-2014 at 07:57 PM.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #13
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    Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Mark,

    It does seem a little odd that you being a Christian, want to discuss moral issues without using your faith as a basis for your morality. Most Christians ground their morality in their belief in god, so how can you separate the two?

    As for me, I believe that our morality is grounded in the Golden and Silver Rules ... all people should be treated with equal human rights and any violation of those rights is an immoral act. Simple as that.

    Kind regards,
    Rose
    Howdy Rose,

    I am able to separate the two by having already acknowledged and accepted what you say in your second paragraph.

    You’re a self-professed atheist. I’m a self-professed theist. We both know that each of us possess a moral center, each of us knows right from wrong. Your moral center is grounded in the Golden and Silver rules, as is mine. In this we do not stand alone; every reasoning human being ever born has a moral center which distinguishes right and wrong – and they all base their morality on something, be they theist or atheist. This fact is true regardless of God’s existence. Since it is something that we all possess, it is something that I can discuss without being required to bring God into the discussion.

    With regards to morality, the only difference between you and I is that I choose to thank God and give Him praise for it.

    Believe it or not I have a fraternal twin brother. Growing up the both of us had to do chores around the house, for which we were paid an allowance. My mother never gave us the money directly, instead she left it in an envelope on each of our beds. Every time I got paid I thanked my mother, but Matthew never did. One day I asked Matt why he never thanked Mom for the money she gave him. He told me that the money was his by rights because he had worked for it, he had earned it and didn’t owe anyone any thanks for it. Technically he was right, which is probably why Mom never confronted him about it. Still, I think it would have pleased Mom had Matt thanked her once in a while.
    Respectfully,
    Mark
    An unsupported statement is not an argument; it is only an opinion.
    Eschew obfuscation.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    Howdy Rose,

    I am able to separate the two by having already acknowledged and accepted what you say in your second paragraph.

    You’re a self-professed atheist. I’m a self-professed theist. We both know that each of us possess a moral center, each of us knows right from wrong. Your moral center is grounded in the Golden and Silver rules, as is mine. In this we do not stand alone; every reasoning human being ever born has a moral center which distinguishes right and wrong – and they all base their morality on something, be they theist or atheist. This fact is true regardless of God’s existence. Since it is something that we all possess, it is something that I can discuss without being required to bring God into the discussion.

    With regards to morality, the only difference between you and I is that I choose to thank God and give Him praise for it.
    Hello Mark,

    You are the first Christian I have ever met who considers their "Moral center" to exist apart from and not dependent on god. When I was a Christian I believed that what set us humans apart from the rest of creation was our sense of morality given by god. Now I know that our sense of right and wrong comes from being able to imagine ourselves in another persons shoes and to know how it feels to have our human rights violated.

    I too am thankful for the many privileges I have, I just choose to give thanks and praise to those people who are responsible for what I have.



    Kind regards,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #15
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    Firestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Mark,

    You are the first Christian I have ever met who considers their "Moral center" to exist apart from and not dependent on god. When I was a Christian I believed that what set us humans apart from the rest of creation was our sense of morality given by god. Now I know that our sense of right and wrong comes from being able to imagine ourselves in another persons shoes and to know how it feels to have our human rights violated.

    I too am thankful for the many privileges I have, I just choose to give thanks and praise to those people who are responsible for what I have.



    Kind regards,
    Rose
    Rose,

    I also consider the tires upon which my vehicle rides to exist apart from and not dependent on Firestone. This does not mean that I believe that the tires were not created.
    Respectfully,
    Mark
    An unsupported statement is not an argument; it is only an opinion.
    Eschew obfuscation.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes
    Howdy Rose,

    In this we do not stand alone;every reasoning human being ever born has a moral center which distinguishes right and wrong – and they all base their morality on something, be they theist or atheist. This fact is true regardless of God’s existence. Since it is something that we all possess, it is something that I can discuss without being required to bring God into the discussion.
    Rose,

    I also consider the tires upon which my vehicle rides to exist apart from and not dependent on Firestone. This does not mean that I believe that the tires were not created.
    Hello Mark,

    There is a slight problem with your reasoning ... if Firestone didn't exist, there would be no tires for your vehicle to ride on.

    Kind regards,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Mark,

    There is a slight problem with your reasoning ... if Firestone didn't exist, there would be no tires for your vehicle to ride on.

    Kind regards,
    Rose
    There is nothing wrong with my reasoning, but I grant you that my analogy does not have perfect symmetry in that one can be proved to exist and the other can neither be proved nor disproved.

    Exactly!


    Since there is ample evidence which conclusively proves that Firestone exists we can, and have reached consensus on this fact.

    Since there is not ample evidence which conclusively proves either the existence or the non-existence of God, we are left with a choice.

    You and I have chosen differently, that is all.

    I respect your right to make the choice that you've made, and I do not think any less of you for having made the choice that you've made.

    I hope that you can respect my right to make the choice I've made, without thinking any less of me for my choice.
    Respectfully,
    Mark
    An unsupported statement is not an argument; it is only an opinion.
    Eschew obfuscation.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    There is nothing wrong with my reasoning, but I grant you that my analogy does not have perfect symmetry in that one can be proved to exist and the other can neither be proved nor disproved.

    Exactly!


    Since there is ample evidence which conclusively proves that Firestone exists we can, and have reached consensus on this fact.

    Since there is not ample evidence which conclusively proves either the existence or the non-existence of God, we are left with a choice.

    You and I have chosen differently, that is all.

    I respect your right to make the choice that you've made, and I do not think any less of you for having made the choice that you've made.

    I hope that you can respect my right to make the choice I've made, without thinking any less of me for my choice.
    Hello Mark,

    The problem with your analogy is not whether or not it can be proven that god exists, the fault lies in the statement you made concerning morality. You said: "every reasoning human being ever born has a moral center which distinguishes right and wrong ... This fact is true regardless of God’s existence."

    Your statement implies that god's existence is not needed for humans to be able to discern right from wrong, which I totally agree with, but that's not what your Firestone analogy implied. According to your analogy, if Firestone is needed to make the tires, then god is needed for morality ...

    I totally respect your right to believe in god, but the point is whether or not you believe a god is required for morality to exist.

    Kind regards,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #19
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    How about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Mark,

    The problem with your analogy is not whether or not it can be proven that god exists, the fault lies in the statement you made concerning morality. You said: "every reasoning human being ever born has a moral center which distinguishes right and wrong ... This fact is true regardless of God’s existence."

    Your statement implies that god's existence is not needed for humans to be able to discern right from wrong, which I totally agree with, but that's not what your Firestone analogy implied. According to your analogy, if Firestone is needed to make the tires, then god is needed for morality ...

    I totally respect your right to believe in god, but the point is whether or not you believe a god is required for morality to exist.

    Kind regards,
    Rose
    Good evening Rose,

    I would like to remind you of something that I stated earlier within this very thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes
    I am graciously bowing out of any more 'god', 'religion', or 'bible' topics within this forum. I find that trying to discuss 'god, religion, or the bible' here is like running on a treadmill - it gets my heart pumping faster, increases my rate of breathing, and makes me sweat – but in the end it doesn't really get me anywhere.
    I suppose I should have said that I would really like to be allowed to bow out of theistic conversations. This situation reminds me of a dog with a bone, it won't give it up without a fight.

    I already know that you've made your choice regarding theology. There is nothing that I can say about God (or even just the concept of God) which will influence you one way or the other. Knowing this leaves me with absolutely no desire to keep discussing the topic. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is a type of insanity.

    When I do answer you about God, I am merely re-telling you what it is that I BELIEVE - which you should already know based on our many other conversations. My choice is still the same, I BELIEVE in God.

    I BELIEVE that God created everything. EVERYTHING!

    By deductive reasoning one should be able to infer that this means that I BELIEVE that God created every human being with the capacity to know right from wrong. I BELIEVE that God 'programmed' human beings, if you will, with the autonomous ability to reason and to make moral and ethical decisions. I BELIEVE that God created human beings as free moral agents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose
    Your statement implies that god's existence is not needed for humans to be able to discern right from wrong
    From the perspective of MY BELIEF system, God's existence is needed for humans to BE. [PERIOD]

    I BELIEVE
    that everything that human beings are, and can be, is directly attributable to God because I BELIEVE that God created human beings.

    In this respect you and I will never reach consensus, it is therefore pointless for us to continue conversing on this topic. There are an infinite number of other topics much less polarizing which we could choose to debate in the future. Would it be ok with you if we did that?
    Respectfully,
    Mark
    An unsupported statement is not an argument; it is only an opinion.
    Eschew obfuscation.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido Fawkes View Post
    Good evening Rose,

    I would like to remind you of something that I stated earlier within this very thread:



    I suppose I should have said that I would really like to be allowed to bow out of theistic conversations. This situation reminds me of a dog with a bone, it won't give it up without a fight.

    I already know that you've made your choice regarding theology. There is nothing that I can say about God (or even just the concept of God) which will influence you one way or the other. Knowing this leaves me with absolutely no desire to keep discussing the topic. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is a type of insanity.

    When I do answer you about God, I am merely re-telling you what it is that I BELIEVE - which you should already know based on our many other conversations. My choice is still the same, I BELIEVE in God.

    I BELIEVE that God created everything. EVERYTHING!

    By deductive reasoning one should be able to infer that this means that I BELIEVE that God created every human being with the capacity to know right from wrong. I BELIEVE that God 'programmed' human beings, if you will, with the autonomous ability to reason and to make moral and ethical decisions. I BELIEVE that God created human beings as free moral agents.



    From the perspective of MY BELIEF system, God's existence is needed for humans to BE. [PERIOD]

    I BELIEVE
    that everything that human beings are, and can be, is directly attributable to God because I BELIEVE that God created human beings.

    In this respect you and I will never reach consensus, it is therefore pointless for us to continue conversing on this topic. There are an infinite number of other topics much less polarizing which we could choose to debate in the future. Would it be ok with you if we did that?
    Good morning Mark

    If you will read through the earlier posts you will see that it was you who introduced the idea of god's existence not being needed for morality and then you created the analogy of Firestone (god) and tires (morality) implying that god is needed for morality. Now, you are saying that you don't want to talk about your belief in god? Okay, fine! But remember, you are the one who introduced god back into the conversation, not me.



    Kind regards,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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