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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Good morning Mystykal,

    I am glad that you agree that my logic is valid. Now the only dispute is about the facts. I assert that God is absolutely untrustworthy. You disagree. Great! All you need to do now is tell me ONE REAL THING that everyone could actually trust God for. Sick children? Nope. Salvation from rapists? Nope. Anything? Nope. If God were actually TRUSTWORTHY about anything in reality, there would be no debate about his existence.

    As for the "prayer studies" that you linked - they don't prove anything about any god or even spirituality. On the contrary, they only show that certain brain states are associated with certain brain activities.

    You disagree with the "milk jug" argument (it's not a model). Why? Is it because you disagree with the Christians who say that God answers with a yes, no, or wait?


    You have been repeating this misunderstanding for a long time and I have explained it many times. I do not believe in any god because I have no evidence - no reason to pick out one from the many suggested. But neither do I have evidence that conclusively proves there is no god of any kind. My integrity demands that I MUST REMAIN AGNOSTIC about things I do not know. Therefore, I am an agnostic atheist. This is really simple. I don't understand why you remain so confused about it. What choice do I have? Do you want me to LIE and say I believe in a GOD, or do you want me to LIE and say that I know with certainty there is no God? Why do you want me to lie???


    You appear to be dodging my point. You rejected the NT doctrine of hell on the pretext that it is not found in the OT, but now you make up excuses for believing other NT doctrines that are not found in the OT. That appears to be logically inconsistent to me. It makes it impossible for me to follow your logic.


    You have invented your own religion. Why do you take the OT as superior to the NT? That makes no sense since the NT contains the revelation of Christ and the Gospel and many concepts that are almost, if not entirely, missing from the OT. Again, you position seems logically inconsistent. I simply cannot follow your logic.


    The idea that most of the NT was written in Greek is based on many facts, such as the fact that it often quotes the Greek LXX letter for letter, even when the LXX differs from the Hebrew.

    And the fact that most if not all the earliest fragments are Greek.

    We don't know when that manuscript was originally composed and we don't know if was originally translated from Greek or not. You have not presented any evidence for your assertions at all.

    And the Peshitta has only 22 books. Does this mean that you reject 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude and Revelation? If so, why not reject it all? Why would you trust any book so obviously untrustworthy? Believers can't agree even about what books it is supposed to contain.

    You say "the format does not matter as much as the ideas presented." That makes no sense at all. The "ideas" are communicated entirely by the "format" - that is, the actual words that are written. Is this not what you meant when you said that "the ideas presented in the Greek do NOT match the earlier manuscripts"? You are obviously talking about the WORDS that were used in translation. And besides, that's all the Bible really is - a pile of ambiguous words that can be made to say anything anyone wants and so are fundamentally meaningless. You use the Bible like a meditational magic mirror or a Rorschach test - which is a fine and legitimate use, but it seems rather foolish to think that the random ink blot actually contains any meaning. You are merely projecting your own imagination upon the Bible.

    Great chatting,

    Richard
    Hi Richard:

    You said:...

    I am glad that you agree that my logic is valid. Now the only dispute is about the facts. I assert that God is absolutely untrustworthy. You disagree. Great! All you need to do now is tell me ONE REAL THING that everyone could actually trust God for. Sick children? Nope. Salvation from rapists? Nope. Anything? Nope. If God were actually TRUSTWORTHY about anything in reality, there would be no debate about his existence.

    As for the "prayer studies" that you linked - they don't prove anything about any god or even spirituality. On the contrary, they only show that certain brain states are associated with certain brain activities.

    You disagree with the "milk jug" argument (it's not a model). Why? Is it because you disagree with the Christians who say that God answers with a yes, no, or wait?

    I say it again you keep thinking I am dodging your questions I am not. You keep asking the same questions and answering them in a silly way! My answer is you are all wrong about how Prayer works how GOD protects people and all the rest of it. The system for you is like my analogy about martial arts. You think martial arts is about fighting it is not. You think that a Master martial artist just follows the laws of physics - they do not! They defy many of the known laws by seemingly simple techniques... You want evidence and since you do not get it in the format you are looking for you say it does not exist!. Well that's silly! But that explanation will have to wait.







    TBC
    Mystykal

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    I say it again you keep thinking I am dodging your questions I am not. You keep asking the same questions and answering them in a silly way! My answer is you are all wrong about how Prayer works how GOD protects people and all the rest of it. The system for you is like my analogy about martial arts. You think martial arts is about fighting it is not. You think that a Master martial artist just follows the laws of physics - they do not! They defy many of the known laws by seemingly simple techniques... You want evidence and since you do not get it in the format you are looking for you say it does not exist!. Well that's silly! But that explanation will have to wait.
    Good morning Mystykal,

    You say that I am "all wrong about how prayer works" but you didn't say how prayer works so I have no way to know what you think you are talking about.

    The fact remains that no one can actually TRUST God for anything in this life. Not one thing. God is absolutely untrustworthy. You say I am wrong but you don't explain why. How am I supposed to correct my error if you can't even explain what it is?

    As for "Master martial artists" who violate the laws of physics - you have not provided any evidence of that. And worse, you say that my demand for evidence is "silly". Why is it silly to ask for evidence? Do you want me to just believe whatever anyone says? If anything would be silly, that's it. The idea that martial artists have supernatural powers looks just as superstitious as all the other silly stuff people claim, folks who do TM claim to be able to levitate. As far as I can tell, the "FAITH" you are promoting is indistinguishable from gullibility.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    It sure gets quiet around here when I post this video. Has any Christian ever dared to try to refute it? If anyone has ever seen a attempted refutation of it please post it.
    Sorry to leave you hanging, I have been travelling. I have been unable to view the video due to my limited service. It doesn't matter, I'm sure the logic is flawless.

    It is impossible to measure the distance to the moon with a yardstick. Excessive rationalism will argue about that because if the right conditions could be obtained, or the right extrapolations could be made we could make a fair estimate, etc. Any question can be answered correctly given enough resources.

    If someone told us the size of the moon we could work it out, but then we would not be using the yardstick. If someone simply told us the distance to the moon, we might insist on using our yardstick if we didn't trust them or thought they had reason to mislead us. We have been put in a position of limited resources to make us dependent on trust or faith in another which you reject prefering your supposedly dependable yardstick.

    IMHO your demands for evidence should be refined to include "that I will accept" ie; that I can measure with my yardstick. This would save a lot of time and effort because this is really what you require to change your mind {repent}.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    Sorry to leave you hanging, I have been travelling. I have been unable to view the video due to my limited service. It doesn't matter, I'm sure the logic is flawless.

    It is impossible to measure the distance to the moon with a yardstick. Excessive rationalism will argue about that because if the right conditions could be obtained, or the right extrapolations could be made we could make a fair estimate, etc. Any question can be answered correctly given enough resources.

    If someone told us the size of the moon we could work it out, but then we would not be using the yardstick. If someone simply told us the distance to the moon, we might insist on using our yardstick if we didn't trust them or thought they had reason to mislead us. We have been put in a position of limited resources to make us dependent on trust or faith in another which you reject prefering your supposedly dependable yardstick.

    IMHO your demands for evidence should be refined to include "that I will accept" ie; that I can measure with my yardstick. This would save a lot of time and effort because this is really what you require to change your mind {repent}.
    Hello Messianicdruid,

    You say we have been put in a position of limited resources to make us dependent on trust and faith, which begs the question ... who are we supposed to have faith and trust in? Mohamed, Buddha, Krishna, Joseph Smith or Jesus ... all of the writings about these people tell us that they received true revelation. Who are we supposed to believe?

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Messianicdruid, You say we have been put in a position of limited resources to make us dependent on trust and faith... Who are we supposed to believe?

    Take care,
    Rose
    We are told to "be fully convinced in our own mind." I trust Jesus. If you trust someone else I have no quarrel with you. It is when someone using a yardstick wants to tell me how far it is to the moon, insinuating that the distance to the moon cannot be known any other way, that a problem is introduced. Yardsticks are fine for measuring doors and windows. You may be more adept at using yours. It may serve you well for many things, just not all things.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Also, the words forever and ever are reinforced by adding the words day and night, which supports the sense of being eternal.


    Take care,
    Rose
    If you insist on the english words being inspired you will not be aware of the mistranslations. The idea of unending time is foreign to the scriptures.

    Consider:

    http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.n...nion-and-olam/

  7. #27
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    Answered Prayer or Statistically Impossible anomalies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Pathetic? What's pathetic about logic, truth, and reality?
    If you think that the video is pathetic, you need to explain why. Merely saying it is "pathetic" tells me nothing. You have told me nothing of my error or why I should repent and reject the video.

    Hi Richard, The video is not pathetic. simply misleading - (truth intertwined with clever logic from a specific world view that denies mysteries and the supernatural) yet the producers website dealing with "why god does not heal amputees" surely caused the concept of a logical fallacy and word pathetic to rumble through my mind. think about it. I am certain many amputees who were certainly on the verge of death due to their injuries (not all) would argue that they have been truly "healed" (over time) both spiritually and physically. Healing has nothing to do with some magical instant incantation that will somehow replace a lost limb. the video in question does speak a lot of truth unfortunately intertwined with similar red herrings meant to tear down the faith of persons who are naive about miracles and answered prayer. Persons who are Naive about the abuse of logic. I am just as perturbed when Christians pray for the silliest of needs or praise God for a hundred "miracles" a day for what is certainly "statistically possible" coincidences. The often told term by new agers and Christians alike "there is no such thing as a coincidence" equally annoys the heck out of me. It belittles statistically impossible extensive research such as your Biblewheel and possibly even my own work at www.Godtype.com. It belittles the times when (I believe) God truly does intercede in our lives. Miracles and Answered Prayer are not brought about by magical incantations as taught by our abusive televangelist. Yet we are taught that Prayers are sometimes answered according to God's will not our own. Answered Prayer (I believe) though is REAL, RARE and a MYSTERY. Just as God or what ever you want to call " it " .....revealed to you the statistically impossible anomalies of the Biblewheel. The biblewheel discoveries are REAL, RARE and according to your words.... "A MYSTERY" I would argue that the biblewheel is a "supernatural" discovery (Supernatural simply meaning science/nature that is above our understanding as human beings)

    "the evidence for the Bible Wheel withstood our skepticism though the Bible itself did not. What it means remains a mystery "

    Are you claiming through this video that their are NEVER answered prayers that go beyond simple coincidence? If this is so then we must live in a world without any true mysteries. lacking anything we can consider the supernatural. If there are no mysteries, then the biblewheel is simply a run of the mill massive collection of statistical impossible anomalies? I do not believe this to be true.... there is something more....... "WHAT IT MEANS REMAINS A MYSTERY"..... A world view that completely denies the supernatural (I think this does not apply to you) would require you to remove those final vestiges of faith from that quote....... and replace "Mystery" with something less preachy.

    Think about it.... Are we not just playing a game of semantics? If I were to call those few times that I have witnessed miracles and answered prayer as "statistically impossible anomalies" or a "Mystery" you would certainly be OK with it! And heck, so would I.... Statistically impossible anomalies that must have been somehow actuated by "an outside force" that neither of us may ever truly fully understand. ANSWERED PRAYER. I think it is REAL, RARE and a MYSTERY.

    Sincerely,

    Milt

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    We are told to "be fully convinced in our own mind." I trust Jesus. If you trust someone else I have no quarrel with you. It is when someone using a yardstick wants to tell me how far it is to the moon, insinuating that the distance to the moon cannot be known any other way, that a problem is introduced. Yardsticks are fine for measuring doors and windows. You may be more adept at using yours. It may serve you well for many things, just not all things.
    I am curious as to why you would put your trust in a character presented in a book that has no evidence to back it up? I put my trust in people who are trustworthy, meaning they have proved their faithfulness through evidence. Jesus not only called the untrustworthy god of the Old Testament his father, but he failed to condemn the horrendous acts of injustice and immorality committed by him.

    Whatever form of measuring device you use, you must make sure it measures accurately.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milton Thomas View Post
    Hi Richard, The video is not pathetic. simply misleading - (truth intertwined with clever logic from a specific world view that denies mysteries and the supernatural) yet the producers website dealing with "why god does not heal amputees" surely caused the concept of a logical fallacy and word pathetic to rumble through my mind. think about it. I am certain many amputees who were certainly on the verge of death due to their injuries (not all) would argue that they have been truly "healed" (over time) both spiritually and physically. Healing has nothing to do with some magical instant incantation that will somehow replace a lost limb. the video in question does speak a lot of truth unfortunately intertwined with similar red herrings meant to tear down the faith of persons who are naive about miracles and answered prayer. Persons who are Naive about the abuse of logic. I am just as perturbed when Christians pray for the silliest of needs or praise God for a hundred "miracles" a day for what is certainly "statistically possible" coincidences. The often told term by new agers and Christians alike "there is no such thing as a coincidence" equally annoys the heck out of me. It belittles statistically impossible extensive research such as your Biblewheel and possibly even my own work at www.Godtype.com. It belittles the times when (I believe) God truly does intercede in our lives. Miracles and Answered Prayer are not brought about by magical incantations as taught by our abusive televangelist. Yet we are taught that Prayers are sometimes answered according to God's will not our own. Answered Prayer (I believe) though is REAL, RARE and a MYSTERY. Just as God or what ever you want to call " it " .....revealed to you the statistically impossible anomalies of the Biblewheel. The biblewheel discoveries are REAL, RARE and according to your words.... "A MYSTERY" I would argue that the biblewheel is a "supernatural" discovery (Supernatural simply meaning science/nature that is above our understanding as human beings)

    "the evidence for the Bible Wheel withstood our skepticism though the Bible itself did not. What it means remains a mystery "

    Are you claiming through this video that their are NEVER answered prayers that go beyond simple coincidence? If this is so then we must live in a world without any true mysteries. lacking anything we can consider the supernatural. If there are no mysteries, then the biblewheel is simply a run of the mill massive collection of statistical impossible anomalies? I do not believe this to be true.... there is something more....... "WHAT IT MEANS REMAINS A MYSTERY"..... A world view that completely denies the supernatural (I think this does not apply to you) would require you to remove those final vestiges of faith from that quote....... and replace "Mystery" with something less preachy.

    Think about it.... Are we not just playing a game of semantics? If I were to call those few times that I have witnessed miracles and answered prayer as "statistically impossible anomalies" or a "Mystery" you would certainly be OK with it! And heck, so would I.... Statistically impossible anomalies that must have been somehow actuated by "an outside force" that neither of us may ever truly fully understand. ANSWERED PRAYER. I think it is REAL, RARE and a MYSTERY.

    Sincerely,

    Milt
    Hey there Milt,

    Good to hear from you again. You have made many interesting comments. But I think there is some confusion over some of the semantics. I meant nothing religious or "preachy" when I used to word "mystery". I meant it in the same sense as the "mystery" the remains in Quantum Physics or the origin of consciousness or the meaning of time, to give a few examples. Science and philosophy are full of mysteries in the sense of things that are currently beyond our understanding. Of course, the word has long been used by religious folk too talk about the "mysteries of the faith" like the Trinity, which are understood as truly mysterious in the sense that the simply cannot be explained. I didn't mean it in that sense.

    Another point of semantics: If by supernatural we mean only that which is beyond our current understanding, then the word really doesn't have much significance. It says nothing of the nature of the thing, but rather our current knowledge of it. As such, today's supernatural will just be tomorrow's science and hence they are actually "natural", just not yet understood.

    Now you said that both the video and "naive Christians" are wrong to expect "some magical instant incantation that will somehow replace a lost limb". But is that not precisely what the Bible presents Jesus and the apostles as doing? The miracles they supposedly wrought were instantaneous and quite "magical" in that the blind were given sight, the dead raised, and withered limbs made whole. But physical healing is not the only thing we are talking about. The question is simply this: Is there anything that anyone can actually TRUST God to do for them in this life? In other words, is God trustworthy in any way at all? I think everyone knows that the answer is most definitely NO. It doesn't matter if there are believers who believe God healed them. That's not the question. If you look at my article "Why I Quit Christianity" you will note that I said "God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers." I worded it that way because I don't know if God has answered a prayer or two here or there. That's not the point. The point is that no one can actually TRUST GOD to do anything for anyone. They can hope, they can pray, but they cannot trust without destroying the meaning of that word. I think the assertion that "God is trustworthy" is the primary demonstrable delusion of Christianity.

    You said: "The video is not pathetic. simply misleading - (truth intertwined with clever logic from a specific world view that denies mysteries and the supernatural)".

    I didn't notice anything the logic presented in the video that "denies mysteries and the supernatural." You will need to be more specific or I won't know what you are talking about. The same goes for your other criticism about "red herrings". I really don't know what you were referring to. Please clarify.

    To sum up: I can totally understand why a believer will believe that the few "amazing coincidences" they experienced in their lives were true "miracles" wrought by their god(s) or the power of their positive thinking, or their dead grandmother, the prayers of a saint, or the "spiritual technology of Scientology", or whatever. And that's the problem. The fact that "believers" tend to believe that the objects of their beliefs have caused "miracles" proves that such beliefs are generally delusional, since they can't all be true. So the video asks a simple question: How can you tell if the object of your belief is what "answered" your prayer?" The conclusion is obvious. There is no way for anyone to know if it was the object of their belief that answered, or if it was some other supernatural agency, such as their own Higher Self or The Secret or Scientology or Allah or just a coincidence or whatever. I trust you can see that this logic does not deny the possibility of the supernatural in any way at all.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #30
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    So what's your yardstick?

    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    Sorry to leave you hanging, I have been travelling. I have been unable to view the video due to my limited service. It doesn't matter, I'm sure the logic is flawless.

    It is impossible to measure the distance to the moon with a yardstick. Excessive rationalism will argue about that because if the right conditions could be obtained, or the right extrapolations could be made we could make a fair estimate, etc. Any question can be answered correctly given enough resources.

    If someone told us the size of the moon we could work it out, but then we would not be using the yardstick. If someone simply told us the distance to the moon, we might insist on using our yardstick if we didn't trust them or thought they had reason to mislead us. We have been put in a position of limited resources to make us dependent on trust or faith in another which you reject prefering your supposedly dependable yardstick.

    IMHO your demands for evidence should be refined to include "that I will accept" ie; that I can measure with my yardstick. This would save a lot of time and effort because this is really what you require to change your mind {repent}.
    Hey there messianicdruid,

    Glad you found time for a visit. I hope your travels went well. You will find that there are often delays in my answers too because my day job keeps me pretty busy. The beauty of this mode of communication is that we can pick up where we left it off as time permits.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "excessive rationalism." I haven't taken rationalism to an extreme. On the contrary, it seems that asking if there is any evidence of any kind to support your beliefs is a pretty basic kind of "rationalism" that any rational person should aspire to. Or what? Do you want us all to be Scientologsts or Heavens Gate cult members?

    You say that the problem is my "yardstick". Great! All you need to do is tell me what "yardstick" you have used to discern the difference between prayers answered by Allah, Yahweh, The Secret, the Power of Positive Thinking, and the "spiritual technology of Scientology".

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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