Google Ads

Google Ads

Bible Wheel Book

Google Ads

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 25 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 246
  1. #1

    The Tension in Creation

    First Post.

    I was reading the post with David and Richard, where Richard was explaining how version 3.0 came about and thought that 'Creation's Jubilee' {chapter 13} might hold some answers:

    "We begin by quoting the Apostle Paul in his comment about the problem of creation in Romans 8:19-22,

    "For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope [expectation] that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."

    Paul makes it clear that the creation had no choice in being subjected to "futility" and to "slavery to corruption." It was done by the sovereign will of God alone. Futility, vanity, or emptiness describe a path that appears to go nowhere and has no purpose. When Adam sinned, his sin was imputed to all mankind. We all became liable for Adam's sin, and thus we are all mortal, paying for a sin which we did not commit. And not only mankind, but ALL OF CREATION was subjected to this "corruption."

    It is contrary to the divine law for anyone to impute a father's sin upon the children. Deuteronomy 24:16 says:

    16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

    This Law is repeated in Ezekiel 18:20, which says:

    20 The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

    Children were not to be punished for the sins of their father. And yet this is precisely what God did with us. The fact that all of Adam's children are born mortal proves that we are paying for a sin committed by our father (Romans 5:12). Adam's children were put to death for the sin of their father Adam. Did God not know that this was unjust? Of course He did! After all, He had prohibited such injustice by His own law, revealed to Moses and confirmed by Ezekiel.

    This raises the most basic question about the justice of God. Death was imposed upon us outside our will, and this is the root cause of all personal sins committed after Adam's original sin. We are being held liable for a sin of our father, Adam. We cannot hide this issue and hope it goes unnoticed by God's critics. Nor can we theologize it away after God clearly takes the credit for holding us liable.

    In dealing with this problem, we must first know that He is just, and have faith that He knows what He is doing. We must align ourselves with His plan, rather than attempt to alter His plan to fit what we think He should have done.

    In looking at the way God imputed Adam's sin to his descendants, and the divine law which prohibits such behavior, we do not hesitate to call God's action a "temporary injustice," which is the direct cause of the Tension in the history of creation. Tension is the result of injustice or disharmony while it is yet unresolved. It has many applications. When a nation wrongs another, tension is set up, often leading to war. When an individual wrongs another, tension is in the air until restitution is made. Tension always demands a resolution.

    In music there are certain chords which contain conflicting or discordant notes. These chords set up an emotional tension until the chord is resolved. This is a very common musical technique, used to play upon the emotions of the listener and draw him into the music by forcing him psychologically to demand harmony. Discord torments the mind of the musician, in order to maximize the feeling of relief when the harmonious chord is struck and the tension resolved.

    It is much like the cliffhangers in books or television programs. All are temporary tensions designed to make the listeners demand a resolution.

    God, too, has employed this technique in the music of the spheres and in the book of history. Imputing death and corruption to mankind and to creation in general has produced a judicial tension that demands resolution. Paul says that God certainly will not leave creation hanging. The disharmony and injustice is only temporary. In fact, Paul says that the injustice that caused the tension will be MORE THAN COMPENSATED when the final chord of history is struck. And so Paul reminds us in Romans 8:18,

    18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

    And again, he says in 2 Corinthians 4:17,

    17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,

    Paul is reminding us that the injustices of life are not only temporary, but will be more than righted at the last day when He restores all things.

    Justice and Liability for Evil

    The justice of God has been a matter of philosophical debate for thousands of years. In fact, all religions must deal with this question sooner or later. What is the origin of evil? What is its purpose? How will it end? Is there really justice with God? Some even question the existence of God on the grounds that "if there were really a God, why would He allow all these wars and other terrible things to happen?"

    Each religion's solution to these age-old problems gives character to its own particular god. We have already raised questions about the justice of God of the Bible in view of the things He does by His own sovereign will, or plan. Recall that Paul, too, questioned God's righteousness in dealing with Pharaoh (Rom. 9:14). Every time we talk about Esau, Pharaoh, or others who seem to have been treated unjustly, we raise the level of tension that must be resolved. And that is the purpose of this final section of our study.

    The real underlying question that we must deal with is the liability for sin. How liable is man for his sin? How liable is God for His actions in subjecting the creation to the bondage of corruption? God always assumes full responsibility for all of His actions, and, of course, man must follow His example. Man always resists God's will (thelema), but Paul says that no man can resist God's plan (boulema). Yet before we can understand this question in any depth, we must define our terms."

    http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.n...n-in-creation/

    [ some forums don't like big cut and pastes - I just wanted to show enough to encourage people to read more ]

    read the whole book:

    http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.n...tions-jubilee/

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post

    Paul makes it clear that the creation had no choice in being subjected to "futility" and to "slavery to corruption." It was done by the sovereign will of God alone. Futility, vanity, or emptiness describe a path that appears to go nowhere and has no purpose. When Adam sinned, his sin was imputed to all mankind. We all became liable for Adam's sin, and thus we are all mortal, paying for a sin which we did not commit. And not only mankind, but ALL OF CREATION was subjected to this "corruption."

    It is contrary to the divine law for anyone to impute a father's sin upon the children. Deuteronomy 24:16 says:

    16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

    This Law is repeated in Ezekiel 18:20, which says:

    20 The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

    Children were not to be punished for the sins of their father. And yet this is precisely what God did with us. The fact that all of Adam's children are born mortal proves that we are paying for a sin committed by our father (Romans 5:12). Adam's children were put to death for the sin of their father Adam. Did God not know that this was unjust? Of course He did! After all, He had prohibited such injustice by His own law, revealed to Moses and confirmed by Ezekiel.
    Hello Messianicdruid welcome to the Forum

    The issue of imputing the sins of a father upon his children is contradictory in the Bible according to the verses below, which clearly state and allow a fathers sins to be visited upon his children to the third and fourth generation. Also, in the New Testament Jesus states that all the children of Israel are responsible for the blood of the prophets shed upon the earth! Showing that even Jesus thought it was okay to hold the children responsible for the sins of the parents.

    Exo.20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

    Exo. 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

    Isa.14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

    Matt. 23:31-32 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers…35-36 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.



    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    This raises the most basic question about the justice of God. Death was imposed upon us outside our will, and this is the root cause of all personal sins committed after Adam's original sin. We are being held liable for a sin of our father, Adam. We cannot hide this issue and hope it goes unnoticed by God's critics. Nor can we theologize it away after God clearly takes the credit for holding us liable.

    In dealing with this problem, we must first know that He is just, and have faith that He knows what He is doing. We must align ourselves with His plan, rather than attempt to alter His plan to fit what we think He should have done.

    In looking at the way God imputed Adam's sin to his descendants, and the divine law which prohibits such behavior, we do not hesitate to call God's action a "temporary injustice," which is the direct cause of the Tension in the history of creation. Tension is the result of injustice or disharmony while it is yet unresolved. It has many applications. When a nation wrongs another, tension is set up, often leading to war. When an individual wrongs another, tension is in the air until restitution is made. Tension always demands a resolution.
    Concerning the justice of god, you state we must know that he is just and have faith that he knows what he is doing. My response to that would be; why should I have faith in a god that is made up by men, and why should I believe that he is just when the Bible is filled with his injustices? The god of the Bible is neither just nor fair, and the accounts of his immoralities and atrocities are too numerous to mention. One should judge a book by it contents, and the contents of the Bible are filled with errors, contradictions and outright falsehoods! Why should I have any faith or belief in it at all?

    Not only does the Bible state that god imputed Adam's sin to his descendants, which is unjust in and of itself, but the Biblegod is biased against women in the punishment he inflicts. Women are not only cursed with the ruler-ship of fallible unjust men, they are also cursed with suffering in childbirth and since it is decreed for men to rule over women, the women are forced to share in the toiling of the land with men.

    The gender bias of the Bible can only lead to one conclusion, that the Biblegod is biased and unjust and was created in the minds of men. The Adam and Eve story was concocted by men to keep women in subjugation to them, and the sad thing is that many Christian women believe the lie.

    If you are interested, I have written a booklet titled Gender Bias in the Bible where I cite some of the many passages in Scripture that deny women equal human rights, thus proving the biased nature of the Biblegod. If god is biased he is unfair, if he is unfair he is unrighteous, if he is unrighteous he is not a true god.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #3
    Rose, did you read anything at the link?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    Rose, did you read anything at the link?
    Yes, I read enough to know that the premise that is started with (the assumption that the Bible is the word of god) is erroneous, also it seemed like the article was trying to justify gods unjust and immoral behavior. The Bible is a man made book that claims to contain revelation from god ... that cannot be so. There are so many contradictions, errors and falsehoods (not to mention the gender bias) in the Bible that nothing it says can trusted.

    Why do you assume that what the Bible says about god is true? Why not believe the Quran or the Hindu Scriptures? The Mormons believe that Joseph Smith received new revelations ... do you believe that?

    The Bible was written by men who knew very little about the workings of the world around them, hence they made up things, so why should I believe what they say about a particular god that they believe created the world? The Egyptians, Greeks and the Romans made up gods too, but they have all fallen by the wayside just as the Biblegod should. As science marches forward less and less room is left for god, the gaps that he filled are shrinking and he is pushed back farther and farther to a place of no consequence. If there is some sort of "cosmic consciousness" that created the universe, it certainly is not the male warrior god of the Bible.

    You did not respond to any of the points I made in my post ... don't you have anything to say?

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    You did not respond to any of the points I made in my post ... don't you have anything to say?

    Take care,
    Rose
    I have much to say, but not much that you can hear. If God does not exist your arguments are all valid. If He does exist they are all spurious. It is what it is.

    The tension in creation is there for a reason. I think it fuels the debate that is the lifeblood of this site. The fact that there are many man-made belief systems underlines the warning given in the bible, "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

    What I find curious is how a person can produce {or be a conduit of} something like the Bible Wheel, or be aware of work like Vernon Jenkins'

    http://www.whatabeginning.com/Misc/Wonders/P.htm

    and then have his faith destroyed by infidels. Having only been here since yesterday, I'm sure some of these things will become clear as I look around.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    I have much to say, but not much that you can hear.If God does not exist your arguments are all valid. If He does exist they are all spurious. It is what it is.
    The tension in creation is there for a reason. I think it fuels the debate that is the lifeblood of this site. The fact that there are many man-made belief systems underlines the warning given in the bible, "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
    Hello Messianicdruid,

    Actually my arguments would be valid even if the Biblegod existed, because if a god like that truly existed he would not be a loving, just or moral god ... as such he would not be worthy of respect. His ways would be unrighteous and he would not be trustworthy, so there would be no point in having faith in him. One would be better off living their lives free from his bondage and evil influence, especially women.

    This tension in creation you are speaking of is nothing more than a made up reason to try and justify the contradictions, errors and falsehoods present in the Bible. For centuries people have been trying to find ways of rectifying all the egregious problems contained in the Bible, but it is to no avail, because if the foundation is flawed there is no hope for that which is built upon it.



    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    What I find curious is how a person can produce {or be a conduit of} something like the Bible Wheel, or be aware of work like Vernon Jenkins'

    http://www.whatabeginning.com/Misc/Wonders/P.htm

    and then have his faith destroyed by infidels. Having only been here since yesterday, I'm sure some of these things will become clear as I look around.
    You won't find it so curious once you understand why Richard and myself are no longer Christians. The curiosity is how we remained Christians for as long as we did. Our faith was not destroyed by infidels as you have suggested, rather the simple step of opening our minds to critical thinking. Once I allowed myself to ask questions and look for their answers, I was well on my way out of the faith that had blinded my eyes to the truth for so long.

    The Bible Wheel still remains a mystery, but it's existence can not cover over the horrible injustices and immoralities committed by the god the authors of the Bible claim created the universe. When I opened my eyes to the true nature of how god is portrayed in the Bible I wondered how I could have ever believed that such a malevolent monster was a true god. The atrocities that god is given credit for makes the Holocaust pale in comparison! Genocide, infanticide, the sanctioning of slavery and rape, condoning the murder of whole villages to steal their women for wives, the extreme bias and unjust treatment against women, and the list could go on and on ...

    I am glad you are taking the time to look around the site, and I hope it helps you to better understand why we can no longer claim belief in the Biblegod.


    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    14,851
    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    I have much to say, but not much that you can hear. If God does not exist your arguments are all valid. If He does exist they are all spurious. It is what it is.

    The tension in creation is there for a reason. I think it fuels the debate that is the lifeblood of this site. The fact that there are many man-made belief systems underlines the warning given in the bible, "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

    What I find curious is how a person can produce {or be a conduit of} something like the Bible Wheel, or be aware of work like Vernon Jenkins'

    http://www.whatabeginning.com/Misc/Wonders/P.htm

    and then have his faith destroyed by infidels. Having only been here since yesterday, I'm sure some of these things will become clear as I look around.
    Hey there messianicdruid,

    Welcome to our forum!



    What makes you think that my faith was "destroyed by infidels"? They didn't have anything to do with the reasons I concluded that the Christian faith is not true. I explained my reasons briefly in a post called Why I Quit Christianity. The reasons were pretty straightforward, and I find the attempts by apologists to answer them to be entirely unconvincing, and worse, often utterly absurd:

    1) The Doctrine of Hell
    I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

    2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.
    This point covers a very large class of problems. Many recent threads deal with them. The most significant to me are the moral abominations attributed to God, such as his command to kill all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan.

    3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
    This fact seems incontrovertible and it directly contradicts the central promises of the Bible. It was the "final straw" for me.

    The third point is the most significant, because it reveals the fundamentally delusional nature of Christianity. All Christians assert that "God is trustworthy" when in fact everyone knows that God cannot actually be TRUSTED to anything for anyone in this life. Parents who trust God to heal their children end up with dead children and manslaughter convictions. If God were half as trustworthy as the average dentist there would be no doubt about his existence. It impossible, therefore, for me to believe the Christian teaching that God is trustworthy, and this necessarily implies that Christianity is false.

    Now as for Vernon Jenkins' work, I'm not only familiar with it, but have done a lot of my own independent work along similar lines. The most significant results, which remain valid as far as I know, are what I call Biblical Holographs (integrated, self-reflective, and self-confirming alphanumeric structures).

    So the real question is this: How could the Bible, which presents an unbelievable vision of God, have come to have these patterns in it? I don't know. I have no answer for this question. But one thing I do know is that the God of the Bible cannot be the true God. And so I remain mystified. But that's OK - life is full of things we don't understand. The fact that I don't have an answer is not sufficient reason to believe in the irrational teachings of the Bible.

    Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions about how I came to these conclusions.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    East of West!
    Posts
    411

    Hell is Greek Mythology!

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there messianicdruid,

    Welcome to our forum!



    What makes you think that my faith was "destroyed by infidels"? They didn't have anything to do with the reasons I concluded that the Christian faith is not true. I explained my reasons briefly in a post called Why I Quit Christianity. The reasons were pretty straightforward, and I find the attempts by apologists to answer them to be entirely unconvincing, and worse, often utterly absurd:

    1) The Doctrine of Hell
    I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

    2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.
    This point covers a very large class of problems. Many recent threads deal with them. The most significant to me are the moral abominations attributed to God, such as his command to kill all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan.

    3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
    This fact seems incontrovertible and it directly contradicts the central promises of the Bible. It was the "final straw" for me.

    The third point is the most significant, because it reveals the fundamentally delusional nature of Christianity. All Christians assert that "God is trustworthy" when in fact everyone knows that God cannot actually be TRUSTED to anything for anyone in this life. Parents who trust God to heal their children end up with dead children and manslaughter convictions. If God were half as trustworthy as the average dentist there would be no doubt about his existence. It impossible, therefore, for me to believe the Christian teaching that God is trustworthy, and this necessarily implies that Christianity is false.

    Now as for Vernon Jenkins' work, I'm not only familiar with it, but have done a lot of my own independent work along similar lines. The most significant results, which remain valid as far as I know, are what I call Biblical Holographs (integrated, self-reflective, and self-confirming alphanumeric structures).

    So the real question is this: How could the Bible, which presents an unbelievable vision of God, have come to have these patterns in it? I don't know. I have no answer for this question. But one thing I do know is that the God of the Bible cannot be the true God. And so I remain mystified. But that's OK - life is full of things we don't understand. The fact that I don't have an answer is not sufficient reason to believe in the irrational teachings of the Bible.

    Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions about how I came to these conclusions.

    All the best,

    Richard
    Hi Richard:

    Jist one comment. Why do you keep insisting that the Doctrine of an Eternal Burning Hell is CHRISTIAN? That idea and notion is GREEK. And as you well know it makes no sense in the light of the fact that Adam and Eve were banished from the garden and the Tree of Life means that there are NO immortal souls! So your first reason for leaving the Christian Church is bogus! It is not a reason to leave! The doctrine is not Christian! It matters not how many so called "Christians believe it!.


    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Mystykal

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    14,851
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Richard:

    Jist one comment. Why do you keep insisting that the Doctrine of an Eternal Burning Hell is CHRISTIAN? That idea and notion is GREEK. And as you well know it makes no sense in the light of the fact that Adam and Eve were banished from the garden and the Tree of Life means that there are NO immortal souls! So your first reason for leaving the Christian Church is bogus! It is not a reason to leave! The doctrine is not Christian! It matters not how many so called "Christians believe it!.


    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Hey there Mystykal,

    It is impossible to list a single set of reasons for quitting "Christianity" because there is no such thing as "Christianity". There is only a large collection of competing contradictory "Christianities" as you well know.

    You say the doctrine is not "Christian". How did you determine that? What is your definition of Christianity?

    If you reject the doctrine of hell as eternal torment, you will still have to invent a different version, whether it be purgatorial, annihilation, or whatever. Or what, are you a Universalist?

    You make a category mistake when you contrast Christian vs. Greek. Christianity arose in the Greek world and most if not all of the NT books were originally composed in Greek. And besides that, the book if full of Greek mythology, as discussed in the thread called Greek Mythology in the Bible?.

    You complain that mainstream doctrines "makes no sense" - that's true, but if we use that as a criterion then we must reject the entire Bible.

    And of course, the doctrine of hell was not in itself a sufficient reason to leave. The most significant reasons are the second and third I listed. And the third is most significant of all. If God is absolutely untrustworthy, then all varieties of Christianity are fundamentally delusional and false.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #10
    I certainly haven't gotten myself up to speed with all the stuff posted on this site, but I feel compelled to just dive in, even though I feel like a junebug in a chicken pen. Rose is in line first but the handy list that Richard provided seems like a good place to begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post

    1) The Doctrine of Hell
    I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.
    I commend you for not attributing to the Creator the pagan concept of an endlessly torturing tyrant. Acceptance by all the christians would not make that true. The offensive doctrine was brought into the church by Augustine who apparently could not leave behind his pagan ideas of Hades. Hell is the grave.

    Universal Reconciliation was prevalent prior to Augustine, Jerome and others.

    "In due course evil will pass over into non-existence; it will disappear utterly from the realm of existence. Divine and uncompounded goodness will encompass within itself every rational nature; no single being created by God will fail to achieve the kingdom of God. The evil that is now present in everything will be consumed like a base metal melted by the purifying flame. Then everything which derives from God will be as it was in the beginning before it had ever received an admixture of evil." Gregory of Nyassa (335-394 AD) - Sermon on 1 Corinthians 15:28

    When english versions use the term "everlasting" or "eternal" in the OT, it is normally from the original Hebrew word, olam. This word means "to hide, keep secret, obscure." It is best expressed by the word, "obscurity." It refers to an INDEFINITE period of time, but NOT eternal. It is simply AN AGE. The end of that age is obscure and generally unknown, but not endless.

    "I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its bars was around me forever [olam], But Thou hast brought up my life from the pit, O LORD my God."

    Did Jonah remain in the belly of the fish for eternity? Obviously not, in the darkness he had no concept of time, and so those three days and nights are described as being olam, an obscure amount of time.

    Another example where olam is clearly a limited period of time, or an age, is found in Exodus 21:6. It specifies that a servant may serve his master "for ever" (olam). This is not for eternity, but only for the remaining life time of the servant. No one could know how long the servant would remain alive, so the amount of time was indefinite, or obscure.

    Psalm 45:6 shows that there is time AFTER olam. This shows that olam itself cannot refer to eternity, because when the Psalmist wished to express something more, he had to say "olam va ad," or "the age and beyond."

    "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever [olam va ad, "the age and beyond"]; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."

    A few others: Psalms 78:66; 79:13; 86:12; 89:1; 110:4; 112:6; 115:8.

    Hebrews 1:8 quotes Psalm 45:6. In this verse, olam is rendered by the Greek word aion. Compare also Hebrews 5:6 and Psalm 110:4. This is the closest Greek equivalent and therefore was used in the Septuagint. Aion is meant to convey the same meaning as the Hebrew concept of olam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.
    This point covers a very large class of problems. Many recent threads deal with them. The most significant to me are the moral abominations attributed to God, such as his command to kill all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan.
    I will leave the "problems" on the threads that are already dealing with them.

    It is God's responsibility to judge evil. At times He delegates to or "calls" certain ones, though sinners themselves, to execute His judgement.

    "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel..." tells us there will be enmity [hostility, hatred] between two groups of "seed". Ignoring one of the groups causes people to believe that we are all one "seed" and assume God is unjust for eliminating some of the "seed" of the woman.

    "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God [direct creations of God - not sons of Adam] saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."

    These hybrids are the Nephilim [giants]. "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkINC...yer_detailpage

    The impact of these "mythological" hybrids [seed] are found all over the planet in religion, artifacts, structures, genetic manipulation and introduced technology.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uc7C...yer_detailpage

    Our struggle is NOT against flesh and blood {other people} rather against the rulers of this dark age, spiritual forces of evil in spiritual realms {fallen angels and their hybrid "seed"}.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
    This fact seems incontrovertible and it directly contradicts the central promises of the Bible. It was the "final straw" for me.
    Do you believe God obligated Himself to answer our prayers that do not conform to His will? Are you unable to accept "NO" or even "wait" as an answer?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may edit your posts
  •