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Thread: JESUS IS GOD

  1. #1
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    JESUS IS GOD

    Hi Richard,

    Thank you for the post from another thread, from which I am quoting here:

    I think it is important to focus on this one point. According to the Bible, Jesus explicitly stated that he would raise up the "temple" of his body himself:

    John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

    And this is confirmed:

    John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    Now of course it doesn't matter what the Bible actually says because the interpretations are subject to the will of the interpreters. If you want to believe that Jesus raised himself from the dead, the Bible gives you verses you can use to "prove" that. If you don't want to believe that, then you can simply explain them away. And so we see, once again, that the Bible is not any kind of guide at all. It leads no one to any certain knowledge because in the final analysis, folks believe what they want to believe (or more likely what they have been told to believe by other believers).
    Without making this another discussion about the Bible itself, the acceptation that 'scripture interprets scripture' makes a huge difference to what can be understood, which is otherwise impossible to determine. If the word of God is a kind of house, in which and through which God reveals Himself, it makes sense to keep the whole thing together, and not remove key parts, and then say 'this looks nothing like a house'; because it won't do if it's been demolished!

    Likewise, a scanty knowledge of scripture being used as the basis of doctrine, is likely to leave room for parts to be invented to fill that which is missing from the reader's understanding or knowledge of God's word.

    The use of human logic rather than the logic which God employs, leads to confusion for the natural mind. That said, it should be noted that God is not out to confuse humans, but humans - being confused already - will not become un-confused, by their own devices. This is another truth from scripture.

    John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

    And this is confirmed:

    John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
    The most obvious explanation for these excellent verses, is that God the Father was speaking through His Son in His Son's role as 'that Prophet' whom Moses foretold back in Deuteronomy 18:18, quoted by Peter in Acts 3:22.

    That this is the case, is borne out by Jesus' own words:

    John 7:'... My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

    John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world...
    26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
    27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

    28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me...


    and

    John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Richard,

    Thank you for the post from another thread, from which I am quoting here:

    Without making this another discussion about the Bible itself, the acceptation that 'scripture interprets scripture' makes a huge difference to what can be understood, which is otherwise impossible to determine. If the word of God is a kind of house, in which and through which God reveals Himself, it makes sense to keep the whole thing together, and not remove key parts, and then say 'this looks nothing like a house'; because it won't do if it's been demolished!
    Good morning Charisma!

    I don't see how the idea that "scripture interprets scripture" helps because every interpreter claims they are following that rule. Of course, I do think some doctrines are demonstrably more biblical than others, but most have a significant amount of ambiguity which is why there are so many disputes amongst even the most devout believers. Case in point: There are only a few verses that suggest Jesus raised himself from the dead. Most attribute that action to God. Of course, if the Trinity is true, then the Son is one of the Divine Persons in the Godhead so those other verses don't contradict. This shows how many different doctrines are all interwoven. They form entirely different "frameworks" of interpretation that involve many interconnected interpretations so it is impossible to prove which is true. It's like a Necker's Cube, which can be interpreted either being viewed from the front or the top:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Either interpretation is consistent with the data though they are inconsistent with each other. There is nothing in the data that could determine which is true. I think the Bible is like this, and this is confirmed by the fact that believers have never found any agreement after two thousand years of effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Likewise, a scanty knowledge of scripture being used as the basis of doctrine, is likely to leave room for parts to be invented to fill that which is missing from the reader's understanding or knowledge of God's word.
    Yes, that is most certainly the reason many sects flourish. But we also must remember that much, if not most, of what people believe the Bible teaches is actually the result of the tradition they accept. You accept some version of Protestantism, others accept Catholicism, David appears to accept a tradition based on the Christadelphians. To understand what I am getting at, imaging taking a hundred people who never heard of the Bible, and let each interpret it entirely on their own. How much agreement would they find? I think the answer would be about what we see by looking at history - there would be broad themes of agreement, but mixed with much chaotic disagreement. Folks just don't realize how much they import into their interpretations from the traditions they have received. Indeed, what is the Bible if not itself a TRADITION? Catholics have a different tradition .. and on it goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    The use of human logic rather than the logic which God employs, leads to confusion for the natural mind. That said, it should be noted that God is not out to confuse humans, but humans - being confused already - will not become un-confused, by their own devices. This is another truth from scripture.
    It seems to me that the term "human logic" is absurd. There is no other kind of logic. The idea that God uses a different kind of "logic" is utterly meaningless. Can you define the "logic" he uses, and how it differs from "human logic"? I doubt it.

    Now it is true, of course, that the bible teaches that God does things that appear to be foolish, such as crucifying the messiah. But that does not mean that it was actually foolish or contrary to "human logic". It just means that it doesn't make sense to a certain way of thinking based on a certain set of assumptions. It doesn't mean that there is a different "kind" of logic being employed. That idea makes no sense at all.

    And I don't think the confusion in the Bible has anything to do with the readers. It is because the Bible really is a confused mess. That's why the most fervent and devout believers cannot agree no matter how hard they try. That's why the most honest believers all admit that there is much in the Bible that simply makes no sense. You can't blame the readers for the obvious confusions in the Bible.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post



    The use of human logic rather than the logic which God employs, leads to confusion for the natural mind. That said, it should be noted that God is not out to confuse humans, but humans - being confused already - will not become un-confused, by their own devices. This is another truth from scripture.
    Hello Charisma,

    I would like to point something out. The Trinity Doctrine was NOT revealed by God. Man made it up. There has been confusion over whether Jesus is God since the writing of the scriptures.For 300 years after Christ death early Christians argued this point until the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. God was totally willing to let his believers be confused until Constantine ordered the Trinity to be accepted under one religion. They voted by majority to achieve this. That is NOT divine in any way. Does the Bible most likely point to Jesus being God? Possibly. But it's still a confused mess.

    This article sums it up nicely. http://www.earthsmightiest.com/fansi...s/news/?a=5690

    IF you want a lot more of the history read this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea


    irst, lets set this up with a brief history lesson. The Trinity was cautified nearly 300 years after Christ and the original Apostles had been killed off. Christians had been persecuted and had gone underground for much of this period to avoid being fed to lions--remember that? Even though Christianity was splintered and leaderless at this time, it was the one common thing that was found throughout the then declining Roman Empire.

    Under that setting, the Nicean Council and the formation of the Trinity doctrine was ordered, led and ultimately approved by the Roman Emperor Constantine as part of his political campaign to unite factions of the failing Roman Empire under one state religion. Not a lot of people dispute this fact, but Trinity believers try to "spiritualize" this history by making Constantine into a holy man who was led by God to do what he did. While there is NO evidence for this, there are lots of reasons to believe that he was doing it for strictly political purposes. To this day there is a debate about whether or not Constantine was even baptized a member of the Church--which Christ said was necessary to be saved. (See John 3:5)

    Think about it. A somewhat analogous equivalent today would be if the President of the United States gathered up all the Christian denominations of the day, had them mash-up their differing beliefs, and made a church from the consensus--a single religion for the the whole country. And it would all be lead and approved by, not a religious leader, but a political leader.

    There weren't even any of the Christian leaders or attendants that claimed to be the head authority of the church at the time. They all pretty much laid down any authority to the Emperor. And just like in politics, the beliefs of the majority were adopted--just like Constantine wanted. Of the two factions that had a disagreement about the character and nature of God and Christ, the majority opinion won the debate, and the losing belief was denounced as heresy. Ask yourself when, if ever, difficult religious doctrines are approved by the majority? Do you think we'd have 10 commandments if it was put up for a vote? I doubt it.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix


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    Yes the Bible teaches a 3-part Godhead: Col 2:9

    Matt28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost": THAT NAME WOULD BE THE NAME OF JESUS!

    1Jn 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one".

    We've been created "Spirit, soul, and body" -- makes us wonder if WE are truly the BODY... ?

    1Thes5:23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Yes the Bible teaches a 3-part Godhead: Col 2:9

    Matt28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost": THAT NAME WOULD BE THE NAME OF JESUS!
    Wait a minute! Jesus is the name of the Son, not the Father. Do you consider yourself a Oneness Pentecostalist?

    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    1Jn 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one".
    There is no evidence that verse was written by John. Its authenticity has been rejected by essentially all Biblical scholars.

    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    We've been created "Spirit, soul, and body" -- makes us wonder if WE are truly the BODY... ?

    1Thes5:23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".
    There is much confusion about the difference (if any) between spirit and soul. Most of the Bible seems to teach that we are bipartite beings made of a body and a soul/spirit.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Wait a minute! Jesus is the name of the Son, not the Father. Do you consider yourself a Oneness Pentecostalist?


    There is no evidence that verse was written by John. Its authenticity has been rejected by essentially all Biblical scholars.


    There is much confusion about the difference (if any) between spirit and soul. Most of the Bible seems to teach that we are bipartite beings made of a body and a soul/spirit.
    JESUS is the NAME above every name..Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    You're confused because much of what you've read or heard has been WRONG. 1Jn5:7 is a member of the 66, so stand a little closer to them, if you please.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

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    Hi Richard,

    Thanks for your reply.

    This shows how many different doctrines are all interwoven. They form entirely different "frameworks" of interpretation that involve many interconnected interpretations so it is impossible to prove which is true.
    Your idea about 'proof' is one of the reasons you cannot yet get close enough to God to let Him reveal Himself to you in such a way that you yourself become living proof that He is who He says He is in scripture, did what He said He would do, and continues to reveal Himself in an incontrovertable way TO YOU.

    A better picture of biblical doctrine would be a globe, within which any point can be connected to any other point without the whole losing shape.

    I think the Bible is like this, and this is confirmed by the fact that believers have never found any agreement after two thousand years of effort.
    You seem to be talking about the believers who were looking at scripture without the Holy Spirit's help, rather than those who find great agreement in Him.

    To understand what I am getting at, imaging taking a hundred people who never heard of the Bible, and let each interpret it entirely on their own.
    Exactly. This has never been God's intention. He gave His word to men who could explain it to their generation. Then He sent the Holy Spirit to make men of every generation succeeding, able to find - with Paul - the 'we' of some of Paul's most sweeping statements. There is indeed great agreement between those who have been crucified with Christ, who do not know Him according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. This is basic. 1 Cor 12:13.

    It seems to me that the term "human logic" is absurd. There is no other kind of logic. The idea that God uses a different kind of "logic" is utterly meaningless. Can you define the "logic" he uses, and how it differs from "human logic"? I doubt it.
    No doubt you are going to be the judge of whether I have defined 'human logic' or 'God's logic'. For sure I am not going to start from an academic point of view. We only need to look at the predictions of Christ's sufferings (Isaiah 53 for instance) and then at the complete blankness with which Jesus was met by His disciples when He told them He was going to be handed over to the Gentiles, die, and rise again, to 'see' that their is no 'human logic' at work in God's plan. It is Peter who has the privilege of being recorded for posterity as having put his 'human logic' into words. Jesus was not impressed!

    Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men

    Add 1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God...'
    .

    Now it is true, of course, that the bible teaches that God does things that appear to be foolish, such as crucifying the messiah. But that does not mean that it was actually foolish or contrary to "human logic". It just means that it doesn't make sense to a certain way of thinking based on a certain set of assumptions. It doesn't mean that there is a different "kind" of logic being employed. That idea makes no sense at all.
    I was limiting 'kind' of logic to two: the logic of humans and the logic of God. They are different precisely because they are based, each on different criteria. Generally speaking, human logic is based on the opposite criteria from God's. A slow reading of John 8 should help to clarify this. John 6 and 7 also help. And it all goes back to the same old question of whose spiritual mindset we espouse personally - God's, or Satan's. Anything can be put 'instead of' God, and by that very act - or agreement - or default - the human not agreeing with God, is agreeing with Satan's 'logic'.

    And I don't think the confusion in the Bible has anything to do with the readers.
    Richard, I can tell you that is the very opposite of the truth. There are many strange things in scripture, which must be understood by a spiritual interpretation, which only God can bring through the Holy Spirit to the believer. The word of God is what holds the universe together.

    To use a different picture, there are some people who are afraid to cross a bridge. It doesn't make any difference to them how large the bridge is; how strong the bridge is; how well-tested the materials were before it was built; they are afraid to trust the bridge with their tiny weight, in case it doesn't hold them. To anyone looking at this objectively, they are crazed with fear. They are making no sense. But, they would rather trust their instincts than the objective truth that the bridge is safe. In the same way, despite the dependability of the word of God to those who trust Him, there are those who prefer to trust themselves, and to stay away from the great adventure of discovering that the word of God is true. They may not be aware that they are in bondage to fear, but if they were not in bondage to fear, they would have nothing to hold them back from active faith - the kind that steps on the bridge with an expectation of crossing safely. It is only as the person is on the bridge that they can say 'I have proved that this bridge can hold my weight'.

    This is the same kind of logic which Jesus used when He told the rich young ruler to sell everything in order to follow Him. The rich young ruler, instead of laying hold of the answer to his question, and discovering the joy of obedience, chose to employ human logic, prefering to go away sorrowful, without eternal life.

    It is because the Bible really is a confused mess.
    The Bible is not a confused mess, except to people who try to understand it without the Holy Spirit. And woe to those who do understand it, but do not obey it.

    Matthew 7:Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven

    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

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    Hi L67,

    My post is not intended to be a defence of the doctrine of the Trinty.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough
    Wait a minute! Jesus is the name of the Son, not the Father. Do you consider yourself a Oneness Pentecostalist?
    JESUS is the NAME above every name..Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    That doesn't mean that Jesus is the name of the Father. Your theology appears to be profoundly confused.

    Oh, and you didn't even answer my question: Do you consider yourself a Oneness Pentecostalist?

    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough
    There is much confusion about the difference (if any) between spirit and soul. Most of the Bible seems to teach that we are bipartite beings made of a body and a soul/spirit.
    You're confused because much of what you've read or heard has been WRONG. 1Jn5:7 is a member of the 66, so stand a little closer to them, if you please.
    I'm not the one who is confused. I was talking about the confusion that Christians have expressed in their two thousand years long disagreement with themselves.

    It would be very interesting if you could tell me what you think I've "heard" that you think is "wrong" and why.

    Why do you say that 1 John 5:7 is a "member of the 66"? It is only a member of the King James Bible. There are lots of other Bibles out there with 66 books. And again, you ignored my comment. There is no evidence that John actually wrote that verse. It is missing from all the early Greek manuscripts and essentially all scholars reject it's authenticity. Are not Christians supposed to be interested in truth?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    That doesn't mean that Jesus is the name of the Father. Your theology appears to be profoundly confused.

    Oh, and you didn't even answer my question: Do you consider yourself a Oneness Pentecostalist?
    Nope. Don't even know of them..

    I'm not the one who is confused. I was talking about the confusion that Christians have expressed in their two thousand years long disagreement with themselves.

    It would be very interesting if you could tell me what you think I've "heard" that you think is "wrong" and why.
    Reading what others think about the Bible is not the same as reading if for yourself.

    Why do you say that 1 John 5:7 is a "member of the 66"? It is only a member of the King James Bible. There are lots of other Bibles out there with 66 books. And again, you ignored my comment. There is no evidence that John actually wrote that verse. It is missing from all the early Greek manuscripts and essentially all scholars reject it's authenticity. Are not Christians supposed to be interested in truth?
    It isn't missing from my Gideon Bible, and He watches over his WORD..

    One Name vs three?
    After Jesus tells them to teach and baptize in the name of "Father, Son, Holy Ghost", we go on to read in the Book of Acts how they baptized [only] in the name of Jesus!

    Were the Apostles deliberately disobeying the words of Jesus? Some will claim Mt28 was added (hah), but my take is they were following the guidance of the Holy Ghost, and realized how a "Name" is required for the 'Power of Attorney' to be effective, (not simply to trace ancestry) in persons truly authorized to use that name.

    From Adam giving names to the animals, to the 'new name' on white stone in Revelation, the theme of NAMES in scripture cannot be doubted, and those who don't have the right to Jesus Name are only whistling dixie or kidding themselves. They're taking His Name IN VAIN. !!

    Mt28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    but..
    Acts2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    and
    Acts8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
    and
    8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
    and
    10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

    Phil 2:9 KJV Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.

    The Bible is the most challenging reading you'll ever find, and more profound than many denominations are aware. Amen!
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

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