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  1. #21
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    Hi David,

    To answer your first paragraph to me, again your approach looks like the diversionary tactics of which Timmy accuses you.

    If you had accepted the open, plain meaning of scripture in the first few weeks after appearing in the forum and starting the questionable thread in question, you would have shown yourself tender and sensitive to truth.

    Instead, you have shown yourself wedded to a fleshly interpretation of the Bible, some of which you have never read, or, have never read with any real understanding, which, at the heart of this interpretation, denies the gospel in its entirety. That FACT that you believe a fiction doesn't even seem to trouble you, even though it is clearly troubling to Timmy, who has spent hours replying to your faulty and deadly (to those who accept/believe it) doctrine.

    Here is the sacrednamebible's rendering of the verses Timmy posted from Romans 9. The truth could not be clearer.

    1 I say the truth in MASHIYACH, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

    2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

    3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from MASHIYACH for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

    4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service, and the promises;

    5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh MASHIYACH came, who is over all, ELOHIYM blessed for ever. Amen.

    6 Not as though the word of ELOHIYM hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:




    If you cannot 'see' Elohiym in v 5, and if you don't understand it even if you do, then you need to start asking questions about what you've been taught.

    That verse is saying that Messiah is Elohiym. NOthing could be clearer.

    Either you believe the scripture, or you are believing a made-up form of religion which has plucked a lot of ideas from the Bible, but has no power to save your soul and bring you through into the next world, no matter how much you want it to be true. Because IT IS NOT TRUE.

    For any 'gospel of Jesus Christ' to be true, in its exposition, the flesh-life of the believer has to be crucified. That includes what goes on in the intellect and mind. If you are dead in Christ, buried in His grave with Him where He took your sin forever, then you don't have a mind of your own, and you don't have fleshly desires you cannot overcome, and you don't believe garbage about Jesus being 'not God'. Because by then, you are convinced HE IS GOD.

    I haven't read the rest of your post, but when I do, I may not answer if I think it is a waste of time.

    Btw, I don't answer to God for Timmy's choice of words; he does.

    And that is the same principle by which you will be judged.

    How entertained do you think God is, that you are doing despite to the Spirit of His grace, which seeks to draw you out of the jaws of hell through His death and resurrection which you are required to believe in the terms He Himself proclaimed it: not in the terms made up by some mere mortal to excuse their own sins?


    Let me tell you. He is sorrowful at the prospect of having to close the door of the bridechamber in your face. Unless you repent, you WILL be outside.
    Last edited by Charisma; 10-26-2013 at 07:14 AM.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  2. #22
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    Lightbulb Eli-Eli

    Duly noted, Tim, but don't see it that way..

    Elijah -- Elisha - (1Kings17 to 2Kings13)

    Elijah and then Elisha were two prophets chosen by God,
    They followed one after the other, but not like two peas in a pod.
    The differences between them were substantial; they weren’t alike at all,
    Except in their duty to God, and in the way they obeyed his call.

    ELIJAH would call down fire! — Be careful what you say or do,
    ‘Cause he would prove that God is real, and make it hot for you.
    ELIJAH takes it on himself to see that things get done,
    He does it in the Name of God — they didn’t yet know of the Son.

    But he’s always very hungry and gets fed miraculously,
    by the ravens and the widow, and the angels by the Juniper tree.
    The Word of God hadn’t yet been born when ELIJAH walked the earth,
    and his hunger would not be abated until the spiritual bread came forth.
    So when his job was over and his replacment was on board,
    He threw his mantle to Elisha and into the heavens he soared.

    ‘If you see me taken up’, ELIJAH told Elisha,
    then the double-portion, that you’ve asked, is granted...
    Sure enough he got his wish, ‘cause he saw ELIJAH go,
    and he received the thing for which his heart had panted.

    Now ELISHA was completely different — he didn’t use fire at all,
    It was WATER that he specialized in, and he had a servant at his beck and call.
    He had no trouble with food; he healed it and caused it to grow,
    His double-portion of the Holy Spirit cured all manner of woe.
    The power of the Spirit in ELISHA went deep into his bones,
    When a dead man accidentally touched them, he raised right up and ran home!

    Elijah was like John the Baptist, whose ministry introduced Christ,
    and Elisha was a type of Jesus, who brings us the Living Water of Life.
    Together they’re yoked to the chariot of God: they’re two birds of a feather,
    It’s the Old Testament and the New Testament, spiritually harnessed together.
    There’s more to this story than can be told in verse, and more than meets the eye,
    If you ever expect to contend with the horses, don’t look for pie in the sky.
    The Chariot of Fire that came for Elijah, is the spiritual vessel of GOD,
    To bring us the secrets of Scripture, and show how our feet should be shod.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  3. #23
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    1K18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. [siyach, siyg, derek, yashen]

    Likewise; I've also taken liberty with scripture and added "or bathroom break", usually to try and wake some sleepers... hah!
    Last edited by duxrow; 10-26-2013 at 08:08 AM.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    The disaster of having your life cluttered and controlled by false religion of any type, particularily a cult:
    It's leaders pick your pockets, deceive your mind, and damn your soul to hell, all the while hypocritically acting like they are righteous, holy, devout, with all the garbalia to appear as though their outward appearance hides what's in their heart.
    Timmy,

    I've been getting some complaints about your posts. They are becoming needlessly rude and some (who don't even agree with David M) see them as abusive. It is a wonderful thing to be passionate about your beliefs, but it I think you have gone a bit over the line. Please reign yourself in.

    Thanks,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Timmy,

    I've been getting some complaints about your posts. They are becoming needlessly rude and some (who don't even agree with David M) see them as abusive. It is a wonderful thing to be passionate about your beliefs, but it I think you have gone a bit over the line. Please reign yourself in.

    Thanks,

    Richard
    We saw this coming when the Timmy was first nominated, before ever being voted in as the new spokesperson to represent the Seducing Spirits Defamation League, and this years Dunderhead Sweepstakes Anathema Awards Ceremony. We shall PM you from corporate headquarters and negotiate this whole issue concerning biased cognitive dissonance and the thin skinned who are for these liars and not against them.

    Until this is completely resolved and parameters are clear, all:

    --scathing rebuke against those promoting dark demonic deceptions;
    --descriptions of their characteristically vile nature or their viciious modus operendi
    --and, details how to avoid them until the stench of their sizzling flesh rises as smoke from eternal flames;
    can abate right here right now FTTB, no matter how ludicrous or factual any mocking alegory be.



    Well, at least the posts got the points across, among other things...or nothing would have been said.
    Thank you for the warning, Richard.

    If the Big Kahuna is not happily hosting,
    The Timmy will not be happily posting.


    In the meantime, Timmy shall several times over repeatedly head on out to a wide open space under the big sky and laugh myself numb enough to reconstitute this spite against these slaves of satan.




    Shalom with you and yours,


    Aside from the recipe due Rose--(a fave packed away somewhere amongst those boxes),--and contacting you as stated, we may return on forum in about six weeks.

  6. #26
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  7. #27
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post

    Hir position and claim is that Paul never pointed to the fact that Jesus is God, so all shall be shown that this too just another bald faced lie by this truth twisting thief, who even couches their deception amidst appeals for sympathy:

    I speak the truth in Christ —I am not lying; my conscience is testifying to me with the Holy Spirit— that I have intense sorrow and continual anguish in my heart. For I could almost wish to be cursed and cut off from the Messiah for the benefit of my brothers, my own flesh and blood. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple service, and the promises. The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent came the Messiah who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.
    Romans 9.1-5


    Þ.Œ.
    I have some catching up to do having been absent for some weeks. I note from a note to Rose by Timmy, it looks like Timmy might be gone for 6 weeks (from the time of his posting). What is not amazing by the likes of Timmy and those supporting him, is his use of erroneous translations. It is all the mis-translations, including those in the KJV, that I wish we can correct and know what is the true meaning that we are meant to understand. I am for comparing different translations if it helps get to the truth.

    I have read the verses cited by Timmy (Romans 9; 1-5). I have gone to my PC Bible which has the KJV and this is what is written; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    Look how Timmy is saying; "Messiah who is God over all". That is not what the KJV is saying. The KJV is saying; Christ is over all and is God blessed. Christ is over all, because God has given him that position and authority. It has been given Jesus the Christ by the higher authority that Jesus recognized was the higher authority. Now answer for yourself the question; when was Jesus the Christ given that authority? Likewise answer the converse question; when did Jesus not have the authority?

    That is why I cannot accept what Timmy says. Let Timmy start reasoning correctly. We have to wait for his whole argument to be presented as to why Jesus is God to outweigh my argument that Jesus is not God. In saying that, I do not take away from God; the only ONE God and Creator to whom all praise, honor and glory is due.

    David

  9. #29
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    Hello Charisma

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi David,

    To answer your first paragraph to me, again your approach looks like the diversionary tactics of which Timmy accuses you.
    Now you are repeating what others have wrongly assumed. There has not been a diversion on my part and that will never be my intention. I have given you my reasoning at length. I have yet to get the same from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    If you had accepted the open, plain meaning of scripture in the first few weeks after appearing in the forum and starting the questionable thread in question, you would have shown yourself tender and sensitive to truth.
    I am not going to be sensitive towards people's feelings who I see as perverting the word of God. If I am treading on your sensitive toes, I make no apology. Do you consider you might be treading on my toes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Instead, you have shown yourself wedded to a fleshly interpretation of the Bible, some of which you have never read, or, have never read with any real understanding, which, at the heart of this interpretation, denies the gospel in its entirety. That FACT that you believe a fiction doesn't even seem to trouble you, even though it is clearly troubling to Timmy, who has spent hours replying to your faulty and deadly (to those who accept/believe it) doctrine.
    Obviously, you have similar beliefs to Timmy, which is why you are supporting him. I have countered the false logic in Timmy's argument. I am willing to reason with anyone, and up to now, I cannot agree with Timmy's reasoning. If you want to get down to serious study of God's word, then I am with you. Always look at yourself in the mirror when writing. I do not think I am the one holding on to fictions. Let us reason this out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Here is the sacrednamebible's rendering of the verses Timmy posted from Romans 9. The truth could not be clearer.

    1 I say the truth in MASHIYACH, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

    2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

    3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from MASHIYACH for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

    4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service, and the promises;

    5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh MASHIYACH came, who is over all, ELOHIYM blessed for ever. Amen.

    6 Not as though the word of ELOHIYM hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    I see this is your favorite translation and which in another reply to you, I had to point out the way it did not agree with the KJV. However, in this case, the words in question in verse 5 I agree are the same as the KJV. It is Timmy's words that have distorted the meaning and he has not quoted the words you are citing. I have responded to Timmy's reply in my post before this reply, so I expect you to see what I am saying. Timmy has distorted the words written to fit in with his own idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    If you cannot 'see' Elohiym in v 5, and if you don't understand it even if you do, then you need to start asking questions about what you've been taught.

    That verse is saying that Messiah is Elohiym. NOthing could be clearer.
    You are clearly showing that even you cannot read the words on the page without superimposing your false notion. The words in verse 5 are saying that Christ is over all and is God blessed. Why do you not understand that in the way I do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Either you believe the scripture, or you are believing a made-up form of religion which has plucked a lot of ideas from the Bible, but has no power to save your soul and bring you through into the next world, no matter how much you want it to be true. Because IT IS NOT TRUE.
    You are saying silly things about what you think I believe. My understanding has not been plucked out of the air. I have considered what all other religions have to say and the many different Christian religions included. I am reasoning these things out according to everything I have read or listened to. If you want me to believe what you believe, then you have to explain your belief to me and give me the answers found in scripture. You have your opportunity to show me the way to salvation, so please begin; I am listening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    For any 'gospel of Jesus Christ' to be true, in its exposition, the flesh-life of the believer has to be crucified. That includes what goes on in the intellect and mind. If you are dead in Christ, buried in His grave with Him where He took your sin forever, then you don't have a mind of your own, and you don't have fleshly desires you cannot overcome, and you don't believe garbage about Jesus being 'not God'. Because by then, you are convinced HE IS GOD.
    You want me to be a cabbage and accept your teaching; how ludicrous is that. Even Rose in he signature quotes from Isaiah (1:18) Come now, let us reason together. Reason involves intellect. I am being taught by the word of God. I will debate with you all day long from the word of God. Are you up to the challenge? We can begin by agreeing this (John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    I haven't read the rest of your post, but when I do, I may not answer if I think it is a waste of time.
    In that case, I am wasting my time giving you at length my reasons based on the word of God if you do not read my reply. I would hope you take time to read my replies, because they are not intended to deceive, but to get you to reason for yourself. Please don't do what you are accusing me of doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Btw, I don't answer to God for Timmy's choice of words; he does.
    I am glad you are not using the same expletives as Timmy. However, in your citing Romans 9:5 and regardless of the words in the Sacrednamebible, you have ignored the words written in the Sacrednamebible in favor of Timmy's words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    And that is the same principle by which you will be judged.
    and YOU!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    How entertained do you think God is, that you are doing despite to the Spirit of His grace, which seeks to draw you out of the jaws of hell through His death and resurrection which you are required to believe in the terms He Himself proclaimed it: not in the terms made up by some mere mortal to excuse their own sins?
    I am not looking to excuse my sins in any way. You are full of presumption about me. I accept Jesus as my God-given Saviour and I believe in the resurrection and the Kingdom of God. Do you want to give an answer to what is the criteria by which people are saved and was is the criteria by which only the "few will be saved"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Let me tell you. He is sorrowful at the prospect of having to close the door of the bridechamber in your face. Unless you repent, you WILL be outside.
    Charisma; how can you be so judgemental? Can you speak for God? I repented when I was baptized. That does not mean I have remained perfect. It is only through Jesus I can be presented before his Heavenly Father as faultless. The same goes for you. Whether we can agree the nature of Jesus (God or man) or not, does not change that fact. The means of salvation has been set by God and him alone.

    I suggest you think about the term humility and how that was demonstrated by Jesus and how that should apply to everyone including you and me.

    How can we both please God, given we have our different understanding at this point in our lives? Here is what is written in Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    Can you say of me that I am not diligently seeking Him? How do you make your judgement?

    I wish you well.

    David
    Last edited by David M; 12-20-2013 at 04:53 AM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I have some catching up to do having been absent for some weeks. I note from a note to Rose by Timmy, it looks like Timmy might be gone for 6 weeks (from the time of his posting). What is not amazing by the likes of Timmy and those supporting him, is his use of erroneous translations. It is all the mis-translations, including those in the KJV, that I wish we can correct and know what is the true meaning that we are meant to understand. I am for comparing different translations if it helps get to the truth.

    I have read the verses cited by Timmy (Romans 9; 1-5). I have gone to my PC Bible which has the KJV and this is what is written; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    Look how Timmy is saying; "Messiah who is God over all". That is not what the KJV is saying. The KJV is saying; Christ is over all and is God blessed. Christ is over all, because God has given him that position and authority. It has been given Jesus the Christ by the higher authority that Jesus recognized was the higher authority. Now answer for yourself the question; when was Jesus the Christ given that authority? Likewise answer the converse question; when did Jesus not have the authority?

    That is why I cannot accept what Timmy says. Let Timmy start reasoning correctly. We have to wait for his whole argument to be presented as to why Jesus is God to outweigh my argument that Jesus is not God. In saying that, I do not take away from God; the only ONE God and Creator to whom all praise, honor and glory is due.

    David
    Welcome back, David!



    We both know that it doesn't matter what any particular translation says. What matters is what the Greek or Hebrew says, and most importantly, means. Here is a literal word for word translation:

    ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.

    who - is over all - God - blessed - unto the ages - amen

    The meaning of this sentence is ambiguous. It can be read either as saying that Christ is "God over all" or that Christ is "God blessed over all". The NIV gives an example of the first possibility:
    NIV Romans 9:5: Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
    But there is nothing that proves it either way, it can't be used as a "proof text" of anything.

    The fact that the words "over all" refer to Christ coheres well with the doctrine that Christ is God because Ephesians 4:6 uses exactly the same words, saying that God is "over all". But you counter that Christ did not always have the authority "over all" but was given it after his resurrection. That's a pretty good point, but it can be explained away by anyone who wants to believe that Christ is God, so there is no way anyone could ever know if their beliefs are correct since they could just as well believe the opposite and "explain away" all the verses that contradict what they want to believe.

    I found this helpful post that lists the interpretations of the most prominent scholars, which gives about 2 to 1 in favor of the interpretation that says Christ is God:

    Scholars concluding that Rom 9:5 does not ascribe deity to Christ (not that Paul doesn't but that this verse doesn't):
    Meyer (1872), Abbott (1881), Burkitt (1903-1904), Lietzmann (1933), Gaugler (1952), Luz (1968), Reicke (197?), Kuss (1976), Schweizer (1976?), Robinson (1979), Kaesemann (1980), Wilckens (1980), Zeller (1985), Luebinkg (1986), Dunn (1988), Schmithals (1988), Ziesler (1989), Stuhlmacher (1994), Byrne (1996)

    Scholars concluding that Rom 9:5 does intend to call Christ God:

    Calvin (1540), Haldane (1958), Stuart (1862), Dwight (1881), Hodge (1886), Liddon (1893), Shedd (1879), Gifford (1886), Moule (1887), Sanday and Headlam (1902), Denney (1904), Zahn (1910), Sickenberger (1923), Dodd? (1932), Lenski (1936), Nygren (1944), Lagrange (1950), Huby (1957), Leenhardt (1957), Schlatter (1959), Schmidt (1963), Fahy (1965), Murray (1965), Michel (1966), Best (1967), Schlier (1977), Althaus (1978), Cranfield (1979), Metzger (1980), De Villiers (1981), Bruce (1985), Morris (1988), Harris (1992), Fitzmyer (1993), Stott (1994), Mounce (1995), Moo (1996), Schreiner (1998)

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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