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  1. #21
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    Interesting conjecture, Richard

    On one hand, we have a book which many claim is supernaturally influenced, or " divine " in origin, and that each and every word is ordained, and thus the order of every book, chapter and verse would be part of this " divine " design, leading to apparent " structure " like your " Biblewheel " discovery.

    On the other hand, we have a book that is a conglomeration of many myths and legends, drawn from many texts and text fragments, I don't think anybody with some comparative religion studies would debate that.

    Obviously there are many different versions of the bible, and they don't all have the same exact words, books, chapters, verses, etc, in the same order.

    For example, " wisdom " being mentioned 222 times, is not in all versions. In versions like the KJV, this " seems " to " mesh " quite well with the overall story, and indeed we do find that verses like Isaiah 22:22, etc, do seem to be part of an extended family of simple sets.

    So, all of a sudden, we are faced with the glaring reality that these " divinely inspired " numerical " structures are not completely identical between versions.

    Then we have to ask " If God meant for all this to prove something, then why is it not consistent in every version ? "

    It does indeed make it seem that the " all-powerful , all-knowing God " has half-assed it.

    If God meant for the gematria and all the other numerical " coincidences " to prove something, and math is indeed the tool we use to probe what is " true " Vs. " not true ", then why do we find inconsistency ?

    Why do we not find the identical biblical numerical structures in books like the Quran or the Vedas ?

    For that matter, why didn't God just use a simple cipher to make all the numbers from front to back spell out something like " I am god, I wrote this book through men and it's infallible " ?

    Why wouldn't god just get over the woo and spit it out in clear and concise terms ?

    Why the apparent need to " hide " hidden meanings with numbers, or rely on the work of translators and scribes to conceal things ?

    It really seems to make no sense...

    Given that there are indeed many numerical " oddities " and " coincidences ", which you say you think might just basically be the product of the human minds which have been responsible for compiling the book over the years ( due to the human mind's proclivity to seek and correlate patterns ) this would mean that the apparent numerical structure was somehow unconsciously reinforced by the writers.

    Now, did all these scribes and writers study or have intimate knowledge of gematria ?

    It's entirely likely that many did, the concept of gematria is quite old, and ciphers and such do not owe their existence to the Bible, obviously numbers pre-date the KJV, predate the Torah, predate oral traditions,

    Were portions, or all, of the book written to maintain these " coincidences " ?

    This is also a possible scenario, however ,this starts to rely on the prospect that they were well aware of the mathematical " links " that could be " hidden " in the texts themselves ( using gematria ), which would then be counter to the idea that the writers and scribes were subconsciously influenced by their own innate pattern-seeking.

    Then we are facing the prospect that some of them may have been familiar with gematria, whereas some of them weren't, and we have to ask how the apparent numerical coincidences became what they were as a joint product:

    ~ Some scribes and writers used gematria to " hide " things, and were well aware of what they were doing

    ~ Some scribes and writers were subconsciously influenced, and were not aware of what they were doing

    Now we are stepping into conspiracylandia, because in order for the scribes and writers of the Bible to have purposefully " engineered " these numerical " coincidences ", they would have had to be in agreement, which means that each and every writer/scribe would have to be aware of what was really going on.

    If we look at the book:

    We have a conglomerate of oral tradition and written tradition, written and compiled, by people who were both aware of what they were doing, and people who were not ( subconsciously biased towards patterns )

    It seems a bit iffy to say that the final structure of the book is " accidental " when we take these things into consideration.

    This is like saying two hands wrote a book, inspired by god himself, but the left hand did not know what the right hand was doing.

    You'd think a text prepared in this manner would be completely willy-nilly and offer absolutely no numerical " coincidences " whatsoever, yet, there they are.

    If all the " coincidences " are indeed purposefully placed there by people playing number games, then this would be perhaps the largest secret to have ever been kept.

    ...which defies logic, as we know secrets don't last long in human hands.

    If it is indeed " divinely ordained " by god, then we have to ask why it's concealed.

    I do not find this question unreasonable , as " concealing " ," covering up ", " hidden "..is a very common theme in the bible, it's not like we don't know the meaning of the word " Kaballah ".

    One of the things I've noticed , where books like the Bible are concerned, is that their readers maintain that the books are " supernatural " in origin.

    A book that is supernatural in origin, and contains " hidden " meanings and messages would not give up it's " hidden secrets " merely at a glance, or after one reading, yet you'll commonly see readers of such books claim to know the " absolute truth " about their books.

    Knowing the " absolute truth " of the Bible would make one infallible, and according to the followers of the book itself, only god is infallible ( even though he changes his mind several times, lol )

    Myself,.. I've been wrong about a great many things in my life, ...acknowledging this is what helps me probe the limits of my own ignorance.

    What I didn't consider, is that sometimes I have been wrong about being wrong, ie, I was actually right in the beginning.

    I've seen enough debunking of " biblecodes ", ELS, etc, ( love reading about debunking, actually ) and can see that the general case here is that numbers can do all sorts of strange things sometimes, patterns appear, or can be teased out of a block of text with enough wrangling.

    Now if all the numerical " coincidences " between things in the Bible are just a statistical inevitability arising from using the base 10 counting system, and we are including here, the alphabetical cardinality of the Hebrew and Greek languages, the cardinality of the bible itself ( it's order ), ...

    ...and all of that hinges directly on the gematria values of the words themselves, then it should be easy to apply a set of different bases to the alphabets and produce a multitude of the exact same " coincidences "

    If it's all a product of statistical inevitability, then it should be a product of statistical inevitability with another set of bases, no ?

    Couldn't you easily debunk your own work by showing this to be true ?

    Like, instead of the normal set of bases for the alphabet {1-9, 10-90, 100-900 } iirc did you ever see what happens when you try another set of bases, ie, did the " Biblewheel " show up again ?

    Did you ever try ?

    I've been very curious about this.

    For that matter, did you ever consider that the reason you got so much shit for your work was because it pretty much does invalidate the bulk of fundamentalist zealot doctrines ?

    I think people felt threatened by your work, because it shows that where the Bible is concerned, all is not what it seems, and your work could actually be the basis for eventually effectively debunking the book's status of being " divinely inspired ".



    -------------------

    On another note, regardless of whatever religious implications all this may or may not have, I still have yet to hear an explanation for the bijections between Strong's cardinality, pi cardinality in base 10, gematria values, word frequencies, and the cardinality of the bible itself.

    I know for certain that these numerical relationships exist, as I have made rather large hierarchical maps using the stand-alone numerical sets ( no hebrew, pictures of jesus, etc, but just maps similar to an " Issue tree ", using sets of sums, powers, factors, roots, squares, cubes, etc )

    All of which are precisely centered on relationships between 666 and Pi

    Pi wasn't even calculated over 100 digits until the work of the mathematician John Machin in the 1700's, so you know damn well that it's an incredible " coincidence "

    That this pre-existing extended family of sets coincidentally happens to be the same family of sets derivable from the bible, reeks of the hand of men, does it not ?

    Has this escaped your eyes, that you have possibly uncovered what could ultimately prove the mathematical " coincidences " of the book are completely contrived from pre-existing mathematical knowledge, of Pi in base 10 , which subsequently became " lost " or " forgotten " somehow ?

    If I had a degree in mathematics, I could probably make myself famous in the world of math, just by this alone.

    Who wouldn't want to be the person credited with those discoveries ?

    Debunk the bible, or at the very least the Genesis account of creation and prove Pi was actually calculated quite accurately by some unknown means, 1000's of years ago, in one shot.

    Granted, I know it's a slippery slope, because discussing mathematics with other mathematicians ( or even novices like myself ) is all fine and good until you bring the bible into the discussion, then it goes to shit, and they can longer focus on the original premise of the work.

    I've seen this demonstrated quite clearly on math forums, as even atheist and agnostic mathematicians seem to lose 50 IQ points the minute " 666 " is mentioned.

    No need to mention the bible or god, jesus, etc, at all, ...just say " 666 " and it all goes downhill from there, there is no rational discussion to be had, even with the supposed rational-minded.


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeboy View Post
    Interesting conjecture, Richard

    On one hand, we have a book which many claim is supernaturally influenced, or " divine " in origin, and that each and every word is ordained, and thus the order of every book, chapter and verse would be part of this " divine " design, leading to apparent " structure " like your " Biblewheel " discovery.

    On the other hand, we have a book that is a conglomeration of many myths and legends, drawn from many texts and text fragments, I don't think anybody with some comparative religion studies would debate that.

    Obviously there are many different versions of the bible, and they don't all have the same exact words, books, chapters, verses, etc, in the same order.

    For example, " wisdom " being mentioned 222 times, is not in all versions. In versions like the KJV, this " seems " to " mesh " quite well with the overall story, and indeed we do find that verses like Isaiah 22:22, etc, do seem to be part of an extended family of simple sets.

    So, all of a sudden, we are faced with the glaring reality that these " divinely inspired " numerical " structures are not completely identical between versions.

    Then we have to ask " If God meant for all this to prove something, then why is it not consistent in every version ? "

    It does indeed make it seem that the " all-powerful , all-knowing God " has half-assed it.

    If God meant for the gematria and all the other numerical " coincidences " to prove something, and math is indeed the tool we use to probe what is " true " Vs. " not true ", then why do we find inconsistency ?
    Hey there Snakeboy,

    You bring up a lot interesting and important questions that anyone who believes there are "patterns" that prove the inspiration of the Bible need to answer. The lack of consistency is what finally convinced me that the Bible Wheel pattern is insufficient to prove that God designed it. I knew that I could have designed a much more impressive pattern. So the big question is "If God designed the Bible Wheel, why did he do such a piss poor job?" And of course, the other big question "What would such patterns prove anyway?"

    Now don't get me wrong - there are many aspects of the Bible Wheel that are extremely impressive, such as the idea that the entire word is "encompassed" by the Aleph - Tav (corresponding to the Greek Alpha Omega), which is used as a title of Christ (the Word) in Revelation. It's hard to imagine that such a self-coherent pattern could arise "by chance." But then I look at the actual content of the Bible and find it impossible to believe that the true God would inspire such a chaotic mess of primitive superstitions and moral abominations (sexism, slavery, random murder of people for picking up sticks, etc.).

    One of the strongest arguments against the validity of such patterns is that believers find them in whatever "holy text" they happen to believe in, which is exactly what we would expect if they were the product of such fallacies as confirmation bias, selection bias, cherry picking, and the like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeboy View Post
    For that matter, why didn't God just use a simple cipher to make all the numbers from front to back spell out something like " I am god, I wrote this book through men and it's infallible " ?

    Why wouldn't god just get over the woo and spit it out in clear and concise terms ?

    Why the apparent need to " hide " hidden meanings with numbers, or rely on the work of translators and scribes to conceal things ?

    It really seems to make no sense...
    That's the real problem. There is no consistent "cipher" in any of the patterns in the Bible. For example, in one context, Gambini asserted that it would be "cheating" to prepend a zero to the number xy when reversing it to get yx0 while in another context he said it was "necessary" since otherwise the pattern would not appear. So what is the "standard" to discern design? There is none! You do one thing to create a "pattern" in one context, and you do the opposite in another context.

    The fact that almost all believers who delve into numerology demonstrably delude themselves with false "proofs" (which they never would accept if presented by someone from a different religion) has convinced me that no intelligent God would choose to use such unreliable and deceptive methods to give his believers "proof" that he inspired the Bible. Such "proof" would be almost impossible to distinguish from typical numerological gibberish, and I can't imagine an intelligent God promoting such folly.

    Why the apparent need to " hide " hidden meanings with numbers? For the same reason God "hides" himself from everyone - neither "he" nor the "patterns" are real. They are the product of cognitive biases and wishful, sloppy thinking. Theology based on the "hiddenness of God" is exactly what I would expect for a God Who Isn't There. And this is confirmed by the universally recognized fact that God is absolutely untrustworthy. There is not one person on the planet who can honestly assert that God can be trusted to actual do anything for anyone in this life. There really is no greater delusion that the idea that "God is trustworthy." Parents who trust God for the health of their children end up with dead children and manslaughter convictions. If God were half as trustworthy as the average dentist there would be no debate about his existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeboy View Post
    Given that there are indeed many numerical " oddities " and " coincidences ", which you say you think might just basically be the product of the human minds which have been responsible for compiling the book over the years ( due to the human mind's proclivity to seek and correlate patterns ) this would mean that the apparent numerical structure was somehow unconsciously reinforced by the writers.

    Now, did all these scribes and writers study or have intimate knowledge of gematria ?

    It's entirely likely that many did, the concept of gematria is quite old, and ciphers and such do not owe their existence to the Bible, obviously numbers pre-date the KJV, predate the Torah, predate oral traditions,
    Its pretty likely that many scribes knew of gematria, and we have many examples where they used it in their extra-biblical writings. But there's not a lot of evidence that they consciously used it in the Bible, except of course in Rev 13:18 (666). It seems very unlikely that the Creation holograph was consciously designed since it is nothing like what we see in any of the ancient writings on gematria and it involves both Hebrew (Genesis 1:1-5) and Greek (John 1:1-5). It is perhaps the deepest unsolved mystery in the patterns that I studied. Neither of the most obvious explanations - "chance" or "design" - seem likely. But there is a third option - the Bible Wheel could have been produced by the collective unconscious of thousands of minds involved in the production of the Bible, like a "dream mandala" produced in the unconscious mind of individual humans. I wrote about this possibility in a post called The Bible Wheel as a Cosmic Mandala of Archetypal Wholeness. But that's got a little too much of the woo-factor, so it's not really a satisfying solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeboy View Post
    Were portions, or all, of the book written to maintain these " coincidences " ?
    Good question. That touches on the question of consistency. After about 15 years of study, I found only four "holographs" - the Creation Holograph, the Unity Holograph, the Logos Holograph, and the Holographic Decalogue (Ten Commandments). These involve some of the most prominent passages and concepts and there is a lot of consistency amongst them (similar patterns, primes, and numerical geometry), but they are very rare and such patterns are certainly not found consistently in Scripture. But why are they found at all? Why would an intelligent God try to impress our intelligence in the hidden features of Scripture even as he offends our intelligence in the plain text?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeboy View Post
    Now we are stepping into conspiracylandia, because in order for the scribes and writers of the Bible to have purposefully " engineered " these numerical " coincidences ", they would have had to be in agreement, which means that each and every writer/scribe would have to be aware of what was really going on.
    I totally reject the "conspiracy" approach. It's no "mere coincidence" that numerology, astrology, date setting, and conspiracy theories are typically found in the same brain.

    And as you mention below, the probability that humans could successfully manage a cross-millennial conspiracy stretches credulity beyond the breaking point. It's hard to imagine anything crazier than trying to explain some numerological coincidences with a conspiracy theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeboy View Post
    One of the things I've noticed , where books like the Bible are concerned, is that their readers maintain that the books are " supernatural " in origin.

    A book that is supernatural in origin, and contains " hidden " meanings and messages would not give up it's " hidden secrets " merely at a glance, or after one reading, yet you'll commonly see readers of such books claim to know the " absolute truth " about their books.
    Believers from every religion come to the same conclusion: Their own holy book contains secret wisdom that proves it was inspired. They can't all be right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeboy View Post
    I've seen enough debunking of " biblecodes ", ELS, etc, ( love reading about debunking, actually ) and can see that the general case here is that numbers can do all sorts of strange things sometimes, patterns appear, or can be teased out of a block of text with enough wrangling.
    Yep. That's the nature of the beast. The enthusiasts show almost no interest in sorting out the "coincidences" from the "design." On the contrary, they typically cherry pick whatever fits the patterns they like and they make up excuses why it's significant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeboy View Post
    Now if all the numerical " coincidences " between things in the Bible are just a statistical inevitability arising from using the base 10 counting system, and we are including here, the alphabetical cardinality of the Hebrew and Greek languages, the cardinality of the bible itself ( it's order ), ...

    ...and all of that hinges directly on the gematria values of the words themselves, then it should be easy to apply a set of different bases to the alphabets and produce a multitude of the exact same " coincidences "

    If it's all a product of statistical inevitability, then it should be a product of statistical inevitability with another set of bases, no ?

    Couldn't you easily debunk your own work by showing this to be true ?

    Like, instead of the normal set of bases for the alphabet {1-9, 10-90, 100-900 } iirc did you ever see what happens when you try another set of bases, ie, did the " Biblewheel " show up again ?

    Did you ever try ?

    I've been very curious about this.
    Excellent questions! Thanks! That's the kind of stuff I've been trying to figure out. When I was a believer, a lot of my critics would say that such patterns could be found in any text. But to prove that, I would have to put in the same kind of monumental effort as I did when discovering the Bible patterns, and that seems impossible as an unbeliever in those other religions. And the patterns are not consistent enough to yield to automated testing. E.g. the patterns that I picked out on the Bible Wheel were all based on themes and semantics that would require a very sophisticated program to analyse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeboy View Post
    For that matter, did you ever consider that the reason you got so much shit for your work was because it pretty much does invalidate the bulk of fundamentalist zealot doctrines ?
    I'm not sure I understand how it "invalidated" their doctrines. I always thought it confirmed the fundamentalist assertion that the Bible is God's Word. Of course, I never said that the Bible was infallible since I saw that as directly contradicted by the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeboy View Post
    I think people felt threatened by your work, because it shows that where the Bible is concerned, all is not what it seems, and your work could actually be the basis for eventually effectively debunking the book's status of being " divinely inspired ".



    -------------------
    Well, I'm not sure that would be the most effective approach. Few people accept numerology as proof of the Bible, and few still would think you could use it to prove the opposite. The best approach to debunk the Bible seems to be to let it speak for itself. All you need to do is point out that it is filled with errors, contradictions, logical absurdities and moral abominations attributed to God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeboy View Post
    On another note, regardless of whatever religious implications all this may or may not have, I still have yet to hear an explanation for the bijections between Strong's cardinality, pi cardinality in base 10, gematria values, word frequencies, and the cardinality of the bible itself.
    I haven't seen anything in need of explanation. The connections are what I would expect from random chance in a large data source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeboy View Post
    I know for certain that these numerical relationships exist, as I have made rather large hierarchical maps using the stand-alone numerical sets ( no hebrew, pictures of jesus, etc, but just maps similar to an " Issue tree ", using sets of sums, powers, factors, roots, squares, cubes, etc )

    All of which are precisely centered on relationships between 666 and Pi
    And what makes you think they are not mere coincidence that happen with the exact frequency we would expect for a random phenomenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeboy View Post
    Pi wasn't even calculated over 100 digits until the work of the mathematician John Machin in the 1700's, so you know damn well that it's an incredible " coincidence "
    Which feature are you talking about being an "incredible coincidence"? I must have missed that post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeboy View Post
    That this pre-existing extended family of sets coincidentally happens to be the same family of sets derivable from the bible, reeks of the hand of men, does it not ?

    Has this escaped your eyes, that you have possibly uncovered what could ultimately prove the mathematical " coincidences " of the book are completely contrived from pre-existing mathematical knowledge, of Pi in base 10 , which subsequently became " lost " or " forgotten " somehow ?

    If I had a degree in mathematics, I could probably make myself famous in the world of math, just by this alone.

    Who wouldn't want to be the person credited with those discoveries ?
    Please point me to the post where you explained this phenomenon and I'll let you know what I think.

    Great chatting!

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  3. #23
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    I drew a circle with an area of 31102 - the number of verses in the Bible.

    It divides up into 7 segments each of area 66.66 x 66.66 - the number of books in the Bible being 66.

    It divides up into 22 segments each of area 11.89 x 118.9 - the number of chapters in the Bible being 1189.

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    It divides into 3 cycles, each approximating to 8888 + 1480, and forms a tri-radiant halo - the symbol for the Cross and the Trinity.

    It divides into 12 parts, each part approximating to 12 x 216. (12 x 216 represents the Great Year. Every 2160 years the Sun moves through a new constellation of the Zodiac, until it makes a complete cycle through the Heavens. ) So the pattern embodies the Great Circle of the Heavens - the 12 stations of the Sun - suggestive of the 12 Tribes, 12 Apostles and the New Jerusalem.

    Finally, 31102 divides into 2 sections each of 15551 verses, 15551 being a palindrome - reading the same forwards as backwards.


    Note: As Richard has pointed out, 66 is a number associated with the Circle, and with the word galgal.

    The division of the 66 books of the Bible into 7 sections each of 66.66 x 66.66 verses, therefore suggests that each of the 7 sections is itself a "wheel".

    So it is interesting that Richard found inner wheels in -

    Genesis - section 1

    Chronicles - section 2

    Psalms - section 3

    Isaiah - section 4

    Matthew - section 6

    Romans - section 7
    Last edited by Craig.Paardekooper; 07-24-2014 at 08:40 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    I drew a circle with an area of 31102 - the number of verses in the Bible.

    It divides up into 7 segments each of area 66.66 x 66.66 - the number of books in the Bible being 66.

    It divides up into 22 segments each of area 11.89 x 118.9 - the number of chapters in the Bible being 1189.

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    Hey there Craig,

    Yes, those numbers are curious. Here's the graphic I produced for the article you contributed to this site way back in 2003:




    My how time flies! That article has been on this site for nearly eleven years!
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  5. #25
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    I remembered your page about the Tri-Radiant Halo, Richard

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    Last edited by Craig.Paardekooper; 07-08-2014 at 10:56 AM.

  6. #26
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    BIble Wheel and the Cross Correspondences

    Hi Richard,

    Have you heard of the Cross Correspondences? These were a series of communications claiming to come from "the other side". The messages were delivered over a 30 year period, and sent to many independent individuals, but made very little sense on their own. However, when all the messages were brought together they formed a coherent message and an integrated pattern.

    To me this sounds similar to your Bible Wheel - messages delivered to 40 bible writers - forming an integrated pattern when all the messages were brought together.

    In both cases the message pertained to come from a spiritual dimension, in both cases human beings were the medium of transmission, and in both cases the message was deliberately designed not to be explicit.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZbWIdkirck

    The parallels with your Bible Wheel are quite strong. Perhaps the Cross Correspondences hold the key to understanding the Bible Wheel phenomenon.
    Last edited by Craig.Paardekooper; 07-18-2014 at 08:48 AM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    Hi Richard,

    Have you heard of the Cross Correspondences? These were a series of communications claiming to come from "the other side". The messages were delivered over a 30 year period, and sent to many independent individuals, but made very little sense on their own. However, when all the messages were brought together they formed a coherent message and an integrated pattern.

    To me this sounds similar to your Bible Wheel - messages delivered to 40 bible writers - forming an integrated pattern when all the messages were brought together.

    In both cases the message pertained to come from a spiritual dimension, in both cases human beings were the medium of transmission, and in both cases the message was deliberately designed not to be explicit.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZbWIdkirck

    The parallels with your Bible Wheel are quite strong. Perhaps the Cross Correspondences hold the key to understanding the Bible Wheel phenomenon.
    Hey there Craig,

    I had never heard of cross correspondences before. Thanks. Unfortunately, the video you shared didn't present any evidence. So I Googled around a bit and found an example of one the "messages" which was supposedly given. It turned out that three "psychics" who practice automatic writing wrote vague stuff revolving around the theme of death. Nothing too impressive at all. And apparently it was one of their better examples. So from what I can tell, it looks like the typical credulous claims of folks into "psychic powers" like palm reading, astrology, numerology, automatic writing ... etc. etc. etc. ... ad infinitum ad nauseum. Such folks are characterized by a profound cognitive bias which makes their claims highly suspect. If that's all the Bible Wheel had going for it, I never would have found it impressive.

    On the other hand, perhaps you are onto something and the Bible Wheel really is the product of selection bias. The mere fact that there are 66 books that can be displayed on the wheel gives the impression of design regardless of the content. And then I went fishing with a net through all the books and selecting "links" while ignoring everything that didn't fit. The links -regardless of how seemingly "significant" - consist of only a tiny portion of the entire text. So it may well be that the whole "pattern" is just the product of cognitive biases. But maybe not ... I need to think about it more.

    Richard
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  8. #28
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    Code Wheel

    [Name:  5198GJK75JL.jpg
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    A typical code wheel looks like this.

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