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Thread: Outline Updates

  1. #1
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    Outline Updates

    This thread is for discussion of the Outline. Any suggestions about how to update it should be posted here.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  2. #2
    Richard,

    I know the subject of immanency is important to this discussion. I thought it should be included. I am not sure if I have it in the right place. I have highlighted the additions in red.

    Regards,
    Wstruse


    Israel and the Church
    I. Old Testament Israel
    a. Israel – Jacob an introduction
    b. The promises to Israel
    c. Promises fulfilled and unfulfilled (before the Messiah)
    d. Prophecies about Israel
    e. Prophecies fulfilled and unfulfilled (before the Messiah)
    f. A divided Israel and its implications
    g. Judah and Benjamin
    h. The 10 tribes
    i. Evidence for the reuniting of Israel (Old Testament)
    II. New Testament Israel and the early Church
    a. Israel and the early Church - New Testament dynamics
    b. Israel, Jews and Gentiles – what’s the difference?
    c. Jesus’ (Yashua’s) ministry to both Jews and Gentiles?
    d. The early apostolic ministries to the Jews and Gentiles – the dynamics

    III. The Church age
    a. What is the New Testament definition of the Church?
    b. The church age and its implications for Israel
    c. The destruction of Jerusalem and its affect on Israel
    d. The destruction of Jerusalem and its affect on the Church
    e. Did physical Israel become the Church or did the Church become Israel
    f. Who or what is the body of believers grafted into?
    g. What is the Kingdom of Heaven?
    h. What is the Kingdom of God?
    i. How do the last 2000 years fit into the purpose of YHWH?
    j. What is the New Jerusalem?
    k. What is the New Heaven and Earth?
    l. What role does Israel and/or the Church have in this 'New' paradigm?

    IV. The Prophetic word and its relevance to Israel and the Church
    a. Prophecies of the Old Testament fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled by Israel
    b. Prophecies of the Old Testament fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled by the Church
    c. Immanency of the 'Kingdom'
    d. Immanency of the 2nd coming.

    e. The 2nd coming of Jesus (Yashua) past or future?
    f. The gathering of the saints past or future?
    g. The 1000 years
    h. The final judgment

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by wstruse View Post
    Richard,

    I know the subject of immanency is important to this discussion. I thought it should be included. I am not sure if I have it in the right place. I have highlighted the additions in red.

    Regards,
    Wstruse


    Israel and the Church


    I. Old Testament Israel
    a. Israel – Jacob an introduction

    b. The promises to Israel

    c. Promises fulfilled and unfulfilled (before the Messiah)

    d. Prophecies about Israel

    e. Prophecies fulfilled and unfulfilled (before the Messiah)

    f. A divided Israel and its implications

    g. Judah and Benjamin

    h. The 10 tribes

    i. Evidence for the reuniting of Israel (Old Testament)
    II. New Testament Israel and the early Church
    a. Israel and the early Church - New Testament dynamics

    b. Israel, Jews and Gentiles – what’s the difference?

    c. Jesus’ (Yashua’s) ministry to both Jews and Gentiles?

    d. The early apostolic ministries to the Jews and Gentiles – the dynamics

    III. The Church age
    a. What is the New Testament definition of the Church?

    b. The church age and its implications for Israel

    c. The destruction of Jerusalem and its affect on Israel

    d. The destruction of Jerusalem and its affect on the Church

    e. Did physical Israel become the Church or did the Church become Israel

    f. Who or what is the body of believers grafted into?

    g. What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

    h. What is the Kingdom of God?

    i. How do the last 2000 years fit into the purpose of YHWH?

    j. What is the New Jerusalem?

    k. What is the New Heaven and Earth?

    l. What role does Israel and/or the Church have in this 'New' paradigm?

    IV. The Prophetic word and its relevance to Israel and the Church
    a. Prophecies of the Old Testament fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled by Israel
    b. Prophecies of the Old Testament fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled by the Church
    c. Immanency of the 'Kingdom'
    d. Immanency of the 2nd coming.
    e. The 2nd coming of Jesus (Yashua) past or future?
    f. The gathering of the saints past or future?
    g. The 1000 years
    h. The final judgment
    That makes sense ... although I must say that our Outline is beginning to look more like an Outline of Eschatology than merely Israel and the Church.

    Here are a few thoughts:

    If we are going to be talking about the Millennium and final judgment, we should include a point for the war of Gog and Magog since it is mentioned in that context.

    If we are going to be talking about the fulfillment of prophecies, we will immediately run into the question of how prophecies are fulfilled, i.e., literally vs. symbolically or typologically. This is a HUGE issue because all prophecies involve symbolic elements. For example, Ezekiel says that the war of Gog and Magog would be fought on horseback with wooden weapons. Futurists say those are just "symbols" of modern weapons, but deny other symbolic intepretations that would allow for a past fulfillment.

    I have a lot more to say by I don't have a lot of time right now (gotta go to work). I'll talk more this afternoon.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #4
    Richard,

    That makes sense ... although I must say that our Outline is beginning to look more like an Outline of Eschatology than merely Israel and the Church.

    Here are a few thoughts:

    If we are going to be talking about the Millennium and final judgment, we should include a point for the war of Gog and Magog since it is mentioned in that context.

    If we are going to be talking about the fulfillment of prophecies, we will immediately run into the question of how prophecies are fulfilled, i.e., literally vs. symbolically or typologically. This is a HUGE issue because all prophecies involve symbolic elements. For example, Ezekiel says that the war of Gog and Magog would be fought on horseback with wooden weapons. Futurists say those are just "symbols" of modern weapons, but deny other symbolic intepretations that would allow for a past fulfillment.

    I have a lot more to say by I don't have a lot of time right now (gotta go to work). I'll talk more this afternoon.

    Richard
    Its really amazing how it seems that one thing leads to another. We could just drop the last section for now. Of course, it will probably be several months before we get to it and it will likely change by then anyway. It will be interesting to see how this all works out. I am looking forward to searching out each point. I am also looking forward to each of your perspectives as well.

    Regards,
    Wstruse

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by wstruse View Post
    Richard,

    Its really amazing how it seems that one thing leads to another. We could just drop the last section for now. Of course, it will probably be several months before we get to it and it will likely change by then anyway. It will be interesting to see how this all works out. I am looking forward to searching out each point. I am also looking forward to each of your perspectives as well.

    Regards,
    Wstruse
    Hi Wstruse,

    I too have been amazed at how every aspect of Scripture relates to every other aspect. It makes it difficult to separate it all out. For example, the futurist perspective is very much linked to the idea that Israel continues as a distinct entity from the Church. This then affects our understanding of the Gospel, and many other things. That's why its important for us to establish as many things as possible independently so we can see how the "big picture" comes together and is confirmed by as many "independent witnesses" as possible.

    As for how we will conduct this discussion ... It seems to me that anybody can start a thread on any point so we will have many relatively independent simultaneous conversations going. Is that what you thought, or were you thinking of walking systematically and sequentially through all the points? I don't like that idea because it seems tedius, and from previous experience I have found that such attempts usually just die out.

    Richard

    PS: I currently am having a very bad internet connection, so I may not be able to answer as quickly as usual.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #6
    Hello Richard,

    I prefer to walk through it sequentially, but I will defer to your judgment on this.

    Warm Regards,
    Wstruse

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by wstruse View Post
    Hello Richard,

    I prefer to walk through it sequentially, but I will defer to your judgment on this.

    Warm Regards,
    Wstruse
    Well, I can certainly understand the desire for a sequential approach since it will give a sense of completeness and order. But we are not "beginners" here and it seems that forcing an "ABC" approach could stifle folks interest and creativity. For example, Part I concerning Israel in the OT is not very interesting in that it is so very well known I don't feel there is much that needs clarification. So writing about it would be a rather "academic" exercise. This is why I think it would be best to have an "open posting" rule where anybody can begin a thread on a particlular point of the Outline. It leaves everything more open so people can write in a structured way about things that are particularly interesting or important to them at this very moment. It seems like that will generate the most meaningful discussion.

    I would like to know what others think about this too.

    One suggestion for a change in the Part III.f of the Outline. Currently we have: Part III.f "Who or what is the body of believers grafted into?" I suggest we change this to Part III.f "What does the Olive Tree in Romans 11 represent?" That seems to be a better formulation because not every believer in the Olive Tree was grafted in - there are/were natural branches that represented Jewish believers.

    Now as for our conclusions of our studies - I think that will be another "sticky thread" at the top. When we come to strong agreement (or a clear statement of the views of opposing camps) we will post the point and our conclusions with indicators to show who agreed with what. For example, from previous discussions Joel has indicated that the Olive Tree represents "the place of blessing" whereas I believe it represents the Church. So if after much discussion this difference remains, we would have to agree to disagree and post two answers in the Outline Conclusions thread.

    We're just beging to get an idea of how we want this to go. It looks like it has much potential to be a great study tool. I am excited to see what comes of it.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #8
    Richar,

    I see your point. I will go with whatever you think is best. I too am looking forward to this discussion.

    Warm Regards,
    Wstruse

  9. #9
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    I updated the Outline. I added a few points and mopdified a few others. The changes are shown in the sticky thread in red. One of the challenges is the question of how many points do we want. For example, Wstruse's original outline had two points:

    III.g What is the Kingdom of Heaven?
    III.h What is the Kingdom of God?

    I combined these into a single point:

    III.g What is the Kingdom of Heaven? Is it different than the Kingdom of God?

    I did this because we are going to be writing posts using the heading like "Part III.g - How does the KOG relate to the KOH" or some such. It seems to me that the separation into two points g and h would be valid only if we alread concluded that there is a difference. So it seems "cleaner" and "more efficient" to combine these points in a single heading.

    But I can change it back if someone gives a compelling reason.

    It seems to me that a number of points are being split like this, and I have not yet really gotten the "feel" of how we will want the points listed since we have not yet actually begun the discussion. So it will probably need to be refined as we go along.

    Folks can begin posting on any point they find of interest. The basic rule is to first check to see if anyone else has begun a thread on the point that you want to discuss, and if not, then start a new thread.

    Let the discussion begin!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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