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  1. #1
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    Effective Prayer

    Hi all

    Not knowing exactly which arena within the Christianity section of this forum this topic should be placed, i went with the discription, "A place to sharpen our interpretation of the Bible and to clarify our understanding of God" made hermeneutics/theology seem somewhat appropriate...but not really.

    Anyway, prayer is something of a matter that has created no small amount of adamant dissonance and consternation within lately.

    If memory serves correctly, Richard began harping about a year ago how nobody can say their prayers are answered ...so might as well pray to a milk jug or the spaghetti monster.

    Timmy laughed until last May being directly confronted by him over this matter.

    First i went to checking out how others who claim they pray were getting along compared to what Richard had confronted me with...and he is spot on the money exactly correct for the huge majority thinking they are actually praying...NEVER REALIZING THEY ARE CLUELESS AS TO WHAT THEY ARE ACTUALLY DOING.

    I cannot think of anything more damaging to the earnest and sincere person than for them to either realize their prayers are not answered, or worse, continue doing their "praying” the way they have always done deluded into thinking they are going to receive some pie-in-the-sky future reward out of doing such a thing the wrong way.

    This is something that just should not be.

    We'll attempt to maintain simplicity beginning with the way my Master Yahoshuvah teaches it...but prolly in piecemeal soundbites, beginning with unlearning the wrong way to pray.

    It need be we tear faulty towers all the way down through their foundation and rebuild everything from scratch if one will be effective in prayer.

    So, to begin with, following His example, Yahshuvah shall be quoted:

    "...And when thou prayest,
    thou shalt not be as the hypocrites
    for they love to pray..."

    Mattityahu 6.5


    What do you think of that?

    Hypocrites love to pray.

    Next post we can get into their way they pray.


    More to come,

    Barefooteded Timmy
    Last edited by Timmy; 08-15-2013 at 11:19 PM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  2. #2
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    context

    Hi Timmy,

    "hypocrites like to pray"

    Not quite true

    And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. [Matt. 6:5]

    hypocrites like to be seen by men.

    blessings

    JEP

  3. #3
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    '... beginning with unlearning the wrong way to pray.

    It need be we tear faulty towers all the way down through their foundation and rebuild everything from scratch if one will be effective in prayer.

    So, to begin with, following His example, Yahshuvah shall be quoted:


    "...And when thou prayest,
    thou shalt not be as the hypocrites
    for they love to pray..."
    Mattityahu 6.5


    What do you think of that?

    Hypocrites love to pray.

    Next post we can get into their way they pray.

    So glad you're tackling this topic. Looking forward to the next installment!
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  4. #4
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    Question

    Hey JEP and Charis,

    This guy right here is not going to begin with what is next til at least next week.

    JEP,

    There is context...and then there is meaning leading to cutting the scriptures straight (KJV="rightly dividing").

    Know we need to relate Mattityahu 5.21 thru 7.12 all together as one thought if we will fully understand all of what is being taught concerning prayer.

    The central point to this teaching where Yahshuvah sitting on the hill spoke 6.12-15.

    (If you are serious about this, begin checking out what a hypocrite is, then do a topical study of the places where Master Rebbe referred to this, because it is not just about being seen by men...and, for a quick hint, it is alluded to indirectly in 6.5; however right in the context (mentioned 2¶s above), if you look at what Yeshua says not to be like, these are all the lues of hypocricy--being one thing and then acting like you are not that way through word and deed. Find the basic principle which is at work behind what makes one act hypocritically.)

    They "love" to pray, not "like".



    Thanks for the kudos C!!!



    Hallel uYah mara natha

    þœ
    Broken yet functioning better than were this not so:
    only by His (faithful) grace:
    Eloheinu Ha'Maschiach et Melki Ba'al Yahöshuvah.
    It's thought that an o with umlautes is more appropriate in correctly pronouncing His name
    Last edited by Timmy; 08-22-2013 at 09:29 PM.

  5. #5
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    On the subject of prayer, we cannot prejudge any matter to say whether God should anyone's prayer or not. However, I think it is fair to say that God will not answer the prayers of people who do not show some faith. Faith of itself whether that be in God or in one's self-belief can have an effect for one's self.

    (James 5:16) The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Unless one has a certain amount of righteousness in the sight of God, I would not expect God to take any notice. In addition to righteousness, being fervent is an additional quality which will get prayers answered and by which James says; "availeth much". It availeth much is the result of the prayer being "effectual".

    Therein are some clues as to why prayer is not answered by God.

    David

  6. #6
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    Hi David.

    From what is now known, we agree (from what you have stated). There is a huge difference between these two things and man's faith is only a finite measure compared with the faithfulness of God. For example, we cannot of our own call thing that be not as existing already and it is so.

    Glad you are taking an interest...and do not hesitate to speak up when you see my own shortsightedness.



    Well JEP,

    i sincerely apologize to you; because i am wrong stating the context (concerning hypocrisy) is Matthew 5.21 to.7.12. It's not.
    ..."am" and "is" because now is seen three fingers pointing at me, and only one at "the hypocrites" when i said, "Next post we can get into THEIR way THEY pray."

    Identifying hypocrisy might even start with "And having observed the crowds..." @ 5.1.as things come to mind from scriptures related with one Hebrew Midrash and the Talmud. We can get into that soon...but after this my mind's eye watched wolves in sheepskins eating sheep, then i heard a voice within say "So you think these wolves aren't hypocrites?" so this context concerning hypocrites runs all the way through to 7.25.

    ...then thoughts turned to a passage at the beginning and one at the end of Isaiah. After that, it was recognized the whole book of Amos is actually about hypocrisy with all it's varying facets...and then Hosea came to mind and some verses from different Psalms, some of which probably were already quoted here.

    This is being written to show knowledge and understanding are not always as i think; and i stand corrected.

    Now, while Yeshua was sitting on that hill speaking to disciples, this is seen as cutting down synagogue and the Temple instructions learned by the people in chapter five. The corrective measures TO DO then run all the way to false practitioners in 7.25.

    i am sorry ...and i shall work to avoid Hebrew wording that can confuse the English reader ...and will go back to edit checking for when a word or incomplete thought expression slips by, relative to learning what is being shown forth. Sometimes i am confusing and misunderstood in English, so necessarily there need be this to avoid potential mix-ups.


    Sincerely,

    The bouncing one: ޜ
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  7. #7
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    Hi Timmy,

    No need to apologize. I even confuse love and like. I am not a scholar and Hebrew and Greek are not my strong points, so English sounds great. The title of this thread Effective Prayer intrigued me so I decided to sign on.

    I do know the meaning of hypocrite and Jesus was unmistakably clear that He considered the spiritual leaders of His time exactly that, hypocrites. What the Pharisees did wasn't praying but acting out a pretend relationship with God only to draw attention to themselves.

    Prayer is on the top of my priorities as a follower of Jesus and a child of God. I have had many answers to prayer and couldn't imagine being a Christian and not communicate with my heavenly Father.

    I await your following posts with great interest.

    Blessings, JEP (barefoot at the present)

  8. #8
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    Well?

    It was thought we had this issue of hypocrisy figured out all the way down to it's root.

    Yet, because this has been an issue of learning to see through my own flawed ways in this, sin, and overcoming it through reliance on the power of the cross of Jesus Christ, more and more understanding all about it is still becoming open to me.

    Jesus made it clear this is the one issue that pollutes our relating with God in everything...and not just prayer.

    After class this morning, one older gentleman pulled me aside and said that God told him to talk with me concerning this very thing...so more delays prevent progress on this thread.

    What i am sure of now in regard to prayer is that it is not what or how i pray that makes it work. He makes it effective through confidence enough in Him to do what He reveals without regard to how i assume things should or might work out.


    TTFN.

    Waka waka eh eh,

    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  9. #9
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    ...then thoughts turned to a passage at the beginning and one at the end of Isaiah. After that, it was recognized the whole book of Amos is actually about hypocrisy with all it's varying facets...and then Hosea came to mind and some verses from different Psalms, some of which probably were already quoted here.
    And Malachi. Perhaps all God's rhetorical questions in Malachi can be summed up by the response of the goats at the end of Matthew 25.

    Yet, because this has been an issue of learning to see through my own flawed ways in this, sin, and overcoming it through reliance on the power of the cross of Jesus Christ, more and more understanding all about it is still becoming open to me.

    Jesus made it clear this is the one issue that pollutes our relating with God in everything...and not just prayer.
    Thank you for this. Relevant to me too. Your mention of the cross lifted my spirits. There is a healing balm, when we receive His death where it's needed.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Þ.Œ.
    ...then thoughts turned to a passage at the beginning and one at the end of Isaiah. After that, it was recognized the whole book of Amos is actually about hypocrisy with all it's varying facets...and then Hosea came to mind and some verses from different Psalms, some of which probably were already quoted here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    And Malachi. Perhaps all God's rhetorical questions in Malachi can be summed up by the response of the goats at the end of Matthew 25.
    Thank you.

    It's amazing how His body works together as one.

    Your words received shall fill the gap in text already begun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Þ.Œ.
    Yet, because this has been an issue of learning to see through my own flawed ways in this, sin, and overcoming it through reliance on the power of the cross of Jesus Christ, more and more understanding all about it is still becoming open to me.

    Jesus made it clear this is the one issue that pollutes our relating with God in everything...and not just prayer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charis
    Thank you for this. Relevant to me too. Your mention of the cross lifted my spirits. There is a healing balm, when we receive His death where it's needed.
    Oh yeah! We can die to ourselves now or remain separated from Ha'Shem Eloheinu evermore. We are given the privilege to die in this way here and now, made alive walking in His spirit ...or do what is right in our own eyes now only to ne resurrected, then fall through the judgment of condemnation.



    Denying ourself ever walking toward our own execution
    looking to and following Yeshua,
    Our great God and Savior:
    This identification in Him for us
    is what everything is all about:

    [size=3]
    I Peter 2:.1 thru 24
    We were called for this because Christ did suffer for you too,
    leaving you an example that you should follow in His steps.
    He did not commit sin and no deceit was found in His mouth;
    when He was reviled, He did not revile in return;
    when He was suffering, He did not threaten
    but entrusted Himself to the One who judges justly.

    He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree,
    so that, having died to sins, we might live for righteousness;
    by his wounds you are healed:

    Last edited by Timmy; 09-11-2013 at 02:31 PM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

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