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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Mystykal

    No we are not reading different Bibles, it is just that most people are unaware that the Old Testament rarely speaks of immortality or the afterlife outside of its mention in Genesis, so apparently it wasn't a very important issue! Another odd thing is that the Garden story is never mentioned in the Old Testament, outside of the first few chapters of Genesis...which begs the question "Adam, where are you hiding?"



    I said that day is created by the rotation of the earth around the sun, the Bible says day was created when god said "Let there be light" before the sun, moon and stars appeared and calling the dividing of light evening and morning of the first day. If you will notice it is the dividing of light and dark that causes the first day in verse 5, but then in verses 14-18 it says that god put lights in the heavens to give light to the earth and divide day from night and light from darkness.
    Gen.1:3-5 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

    Gen.1:13-18 And the evening and the morning were the third day. And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

    If light is divided from darkness causing the first day, why does it need another whole day devoted to making it happen again on the fourth day? Kinda repetitive wouldn't you say.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Hi Rose:

    I am sure your statement is not what you intend to say! You said, "I said that day is created by the rotation of the earth around the sun,..."

    The scientific fact is the earth day is NOT the earth going around the sun but rather the earth turning on its own axis! YOU DO NOT NEED THE SUN to create a day! Never mind that the sun may have been there all along before the third day or the fifth day or whatever since it says "He made the stars also. The sun IS a star! And the stars were made even BEFORE the world was formed!!! YOU really need to stop trying to act like you are reading the Bible in any coherent way. You are just trying to pick a fight with the writers/translators! It's not rocket science! Just understand the Bible is NOT written as a scientific book. It is a book full of magic! The mysterious power which so many think is only evil. The Bible is a guide to the other side...

    Namaste,

    Mystykal

  2. #22
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    Hello Rose

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David

    No legitimate scientist would ever say the order of creation in Genesis is correct, because it's not. The earth did not begin by being covered in water, dry land did not emerge out of the oceans, plants which are living organisms did not evolve before their was sunlight, and the sun and stars were formed before the earth not after the earth.
    Mystykal has already answered this point and from what the Bible actually states we are in agreement. In addition to this, the creation story is never likely to align 100% with science. You expect creation to fall in line with evolution to support the theory of evolution. Miracles are outside that of science so any miracle is never going to be confirmed by science. Initially a day would be as long as it took God to create all the things he did in one day. How fast does God work? When miracles of healing or things like the resurrection of Lazarus, things happened almost instantaneously. God is operating at a level that is outside science and what God can do, science will never achieve. Man is in a bubble that he will never get outside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Science is indeed still looking for answers and is open to correct itself when proven wrong, which is in contrast to the Bible that can never be changed no matter how wrong it is. How can you say the Bible is reliable when it is continually shown to be wrong? If the Bible had one error it would be too many, but we all know that it has many more than that.
    I know that and I have just posted (before this) a quoted in which scientists have admitted that what they have just found, might make them have to rethink established science. The Bible is less wrong than you say it is. You do not look for answers to the problems you say there are and when I give you an answer to a problem, you do not accept it. If you put your head in the sand and not look for the answers that are there, then you remain fixed in your unfounded belief that science will eventually have all the answers. And when it does have all the answers it can get, where does that get any of us?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Just because man makes faulty machinery doesn't mean the logic behind it is faulty. If the logic was faulty the plane would never get off the ground, the computer would not compute properly, and medicines wouldn't heal people. The biblical method to cure diseases is to pray the demons out, which we all know doesn't work that is why up until antibiotics were discovered people died of infections and no amount of prayer helped them.
    Man's logic is not 100% accurate and nothing man can do is perfect. Those imperfections which we can call mistakes lead to the problems and disasters which are man's fault. You must not lay the blame on God when it is clearly man's fault.
    As for praying to get rid of demons. Show me one example, when Jesus failed to rid a person of demons. Jesus proves everything you say is wrong. Jesus invariably prayed to his Heavenly Father before performing miracles. Even though the power of God was made available to him, he never took that power for granted; Jesus said; Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, God does not always answer prayers and this is a subject of its own. Jesus healed people without using antibiotics and the healing by Jesus was instantaneous and complete.

    All the best

    David
    Last edited by David M; 06-22-2013 at 04:05 AM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Rose:

    I am sure your statement is not what you intend to say! You said, "I said that day is created by the rotation of the earth around the sun,..."

    The scientific fact is the earth day is NOT the earth going around the sun but rather the earth turning on its own axis! YOU DO NOT NEED THE SUN to create a day! Never mind that the sun may have been there all along before the third day or the fifth day or whatever since it says "He made the stars also. The sun IS a star! And the stars were made even BEFORE the world was formed!!! YOU really need to stop trying to act like you are reading the Bible in any coherent way. You are just trying to pick a fight with the writers/translators! It's not rocket science! Just understand the Bible is NOT written as a scientific book. It is a book full of magic! The mysterious power which so many think is only evil. The Bible is a guide to the other side...

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Hi Mystykal

    Yes, of course, the separation of day and night are created by the earth turning on its axis, but my point is that without the sun there would be NO LIGHT to make day. I think if the biblical authors had thought the sun was already created before the earth that is what they would have said, just because you know better now doesn't have anything to do with what the writers thought. The Bible was written from primitive minds that were trying to piece together the workings of nature with a very limited understanding.

    If people want to claim that the Bible is the word of god then it should be written in a way that is coherent and factual, otherwise it is just a mythological story book. How can the Bible be trusted as a guide to the other side when it is full of erroneous statements?

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Richard
    What are the errors and inconsistencies that would cause me to have a double standard. I expect science to tell me the origin to the universe I can believe or else I accept the Bible explanation. Errors in God's word involving what happened to Israel or to do with with prophecy has nothing to do with science of creation which is at the heart of this discussion.
    Hey there David,

    How is it that you could pretend you don't know about the "errors and inconsistencies" in the Bible? I've shared many of them with you many times in this forum. Most relevant to our current discussion is the ancient mythological cosmology that is found throughout the Bible, beginning, of course, in Genesis. The Bible teaches that the we live in a three-tiered universe with of a flat earth held up by pillars with water below and waters above that are held up by a dome. Here is an article from the conservative Christian think-tank called www.Biologos.org that explains the ancient mythological cosmology of the Bible: Mesopotamian Cosmic Geography in the Bible. It quotes lots of Scripture. I think they give good support for there conclusion.



    This is the worldview that folks would get just by reading the Bible.

    Now there is a great irony in your rejection of science as "uncertain" and your acceptance of the Bible as giving you "certainty" because believers constantly change their interpretation of the Bible to conform to SCIENCE!

    For example, many Bible believers rejected the idea that the earth was a planet that moved through space because the Bible explicitly states that "the world is established, so that it cannot be moved" (Psalm 93:1). Now think about this. It doesn't matter if you say that the verse was "misinterpreted." The point is that the only way we could ever know the truth about the world is by SCIENCE that guided us to understand that the earth is a planet that moves through space. This is why the Bible is not a reliable guide. It's nothing but a pile of ambiguous words that everyone disagrees about and there is no way to actually TEST which interpretation is correct, except by science, of course.

    You really need to think about this. Suppose science proved that the earth really was flat and there really was a dome holding up the waters that were "above." Christians would be using those scientific results to PROVE that the Bible was inspired.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    There are not so many errors or problems you say there are and the few errors and problems that remain, do not affect the integrity of the Bible. There is a consistent message, when all of the Bible is taken into account, and this outweighs any of the few difficult passages to understand.
    God is trustworthy and keeps to his word. That is what the Bible reveals, but answering a soundbite from you in a few words is not going to prove this point here and s I suggest any specific points you want to discuss about this are dealt with in a new thread.
    All the best
    David
    I agree that there is a consistent message, but the funny thing is that you and I disagree about what that message actually says! So again, we see that the Bible is not a reliable guide for anything because it is just a pile of ambiguous words that every one interprets differently and there is no way for anyone to prove who is right or wrong. And that's why your illusion that you have "certainty" about your interpretations is so delusional. You hold to fringe doctrines that the vast majority of INTELLIGENT and INFORMED Bible believers disagree with. So why would you have any "confidence" that your fringe beliefs are true? If every agrees that the sky is blue, but you say that it is green, then maybe it would be a little nuts to claim that you have "certainty" that the sky is really green. Maybe a little humility would serve you better.

    Your assertion that "God is trustworthy" makes no sense to me. What do you mean by "trustworthy"? Tell me one thing that you can actually TRUST God to do. If he were half as trustworthy as the average dentist there would be no debate about his existence. It appears you have emptied the word "trustworthy" of all meaning.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose

    Mystykal has already answered this point and from what the Bible actually states we are in agreement. In addition to this, the creation story is never likely to align 100% with science. You expect creation to fall in line with evolution to support the theory of evolution. Miracles are outside that of science so any miracle is never going to be confirmed by science. Initially a day would be as long as it took God to create all the things he did in one day. How fast does God work? When miracles of healing or things like the resurrection of Lazarus, things happened almost instantaneously. God is operating at a level that is outside science and what God can do, science will never achieve. Man is in a bubble that he will never get outside.
    Hi David

    Like I said to Mystykal, the Bible was written from the minds of primitive men, who were trying to piece together the way in which nature works and its order from a very limited understanding. If the Bible was inspired by god I would expect it to align with the facts of science. In the creation story the term day is used in its normal sense, being split from night to make a complete period of one cycle. The only reason Christians feel the need to extend the length of time for the "creation days" is because nothing fits with the scientific model, which shows how creationist's are constantly trying to make the Bible fit with science.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I know that and I have just posted (before this) a quoted in which scientists have admitted that what they have just found, might make them have to rethink established science. The Bible is less wrong than you say it is. You do not look for answers to the problems you say there are and when I give you an answer to a problem, you do not accept it. If you put your head in the sand and not look for the answers that are there, then you remain fixed in your unfounded belief that science will eventually have all the answers. And when it does have all the answers it can get, where does that get any of us?
    What you said about the Bible being "Less wrong" pretty much says it all. If the Bible is wrong at all it shows that it cannot be trusted, people cannot be expected to discern error from fact, consequently it becomes worthless as a guide to truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Man's logic is not 100% accurate and nothing man can do is perfect. Those imperfections which we can call mistakes lead to the problems and disasters which are man's fault. You must not lay the blame on God when it is clearly man's fault.
    As for praying to get rid of demons. Show me one example, when Jesus failed to rid a person of demons. Jesus proves everything you say is wrong. Jesus invariably prayed to his Heavenly Father before performing miracles. Even though the power of God was made available to him, he never took that power for granted; Jesus said; Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, God does not always answer prayers and this is a subject of its own. Jesus healed people without using antibiotics and the healing by Jesus was instantaneous and complete.

    All the best

    David
    We don't even know for sure if Jesus ever even existed, let alone performed any miracles...it's all just words in a book - no proof. There has never been one documented case of a person being healed by having a demon exorcised from them - there's no proof that demons exist. The onus is on the person claiming the miracle to prove it happened, never the other way around. Words written in a book are not acceptable proof of anything. Words must be always backed up with a demonstration, that is why the Bible says Jesus performed miracles so the people could see them, but the big problem with that is all we have is a book that tells us what he did - no proof.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  6. #26
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    The Bible AS A Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Mystykal

    Yes, of course, the separation of day and night are created by the earth turning on its axis, but my point is that without the sun there would be NO LIGHT to make day. I think if the biblical authors had thought the sun was already created before the earth that is what they would have said, just because you know better now doesn't have anything to do with what the writers thought. The Bible was written from primitive minds that were trying to piece together the workings of nature with a very limited understanding.

    If people want to claim that the Bible is the word of god then it should be written in a way that is coherent and factual, otherwise it is just a mythological story book. How can the Bible be trusted as a guide to the other side when it is full of erroneous statements?

    Take care,
    Rose
    Hi Rose:

    From the stories that Jesus taught on the "hidden" treasure - it is clear that the Bible is the dirt and the words are the stony ground. All of that must be dug up so that the "pearl of great price" might be found. Again I remind you GOD said, "You will find me when you search for me with ALL of your heart!"

    As far as light for the earth without the sun... "With GOD is all light and no shodow of turning"... So since GOD was present at the creation of the world HE could have been the light! The Bible writers are not scientists and GOD is NOT writing the BIBLE! He is "inspiring" people to do that. Some of the people may have been less than ignorant about some things.... That is not GOD's fault.

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 06-23-2013 at 12:54 AM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Rose:

    From the stories that Jesus taught on the "hidden" treasure - it is clear that the Bible is the dirt and the words are the stony ground. All of that must be dug up so that the "pearl of great price" might be found. Again I remind you GOD said, "You will find me when you search for me with ALL of your heart!"
    Hi Mystykal

    I spent a lot of years as a Christian searching and believing in god with all my heart, but nowhere did I find the kind of treasure that has been revealed to me once I opened my eyes to see the world as it really is. I have the advantage of having seen both sides and I feel much freer now experiencing the fulness of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    As far as light for the earth without the sun... "With GOD is all light and no shodow of turning"... So since GOD was present at the creation of the world HE could have been the light! The Bible writers are not scientists and GOD is NOT writing the BIBLE! He is "inspiring" people to do that. Some of the people may have been less than ignorant about some things.... That is not GOD's fault.

    Namaste,

    Mystykal

    If the Bible god is the omnipotent being that you believe he is, then he should have no trouble "inspiring" people to write his words correctly. People do not have to be scientists to take proper dictation, it should be no more difficult for god to reveal correct scientific facts versus erroneous ones.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    .
    As for praying to get rid of demons. Show me one example, when Jesus failed to rid a person of demons. Jesus proves everything you say is wrong. Jesus invariably prayed to his Heavenly Father before performing miracles. Even though the power of God was made available to him, he never took that power for granted; Jesus said; Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, God does not always answer prayers and this is a subject of its own. Jesus healed people without using antibiotics and the healing by Jesus was instantaneous and complete.

    All the best

    David
    I'll show you one example. http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/markauthor.html

    Name:  palestine.gif
Views: 24
Size:  9.8 KB


    Another mistake occurred in the episode on the healing of the demoniac. This incident occurred in the region of the Gerasenes, or Gerasa. Mark 5:1 makes Jesus cross the Sea of Galilee to reach Gerasa, implying that Gerasa was a city close to the lake:

    Mark 5:1
    They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[c]

    Similarly in Mark 5:13 Jesus allowed the demons to leave the man and enter the herd of pigs nearby which then rushed headlong over a precipice into the lake:

    Mark 5:13
    He [Jesus] gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

    From these readings it is obvious that Mark meant Gerasa to be a town situated near the Sea of Galilee. However look at the map again. Gerasa is more than fifty kilometers to the southeast of the Sea of Galilee!! There is not even a hint of any lake nearby.[d] As the Biblical scholars of Jesus Seminar so deliciously remarked:

    Gerasa is located approximately thirty miles to the southeast of the Sea of Galilee, not exactly a convenient location for the drowning of the pigs. Matthew relocates the demoniac to Gadara, which is only six miles from the lakeshore. Later scribes tried other remedies to accomodate the pigs.[7]



    It would be impossible for Jesus to accomplish what Mark said he did. Mark placed the drowning of the pigs 30 miles out in the middle of nowhere. There is no way an eyewitness could screw the location up that bad. And Mathew tries to correct Marks mistake and still we have a distance far off. Now we have two gospels that contradict each other. This is only one of many many contradictions between the gospels.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix


  9. #29
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    GOD is no resspector of persons

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Mystykal

    I spent a lot of years as a Christian searching and believing in god with all my heart, but nowhere did I find the kind of treasure that has been revealed to me once I opened my eyes to see the world as it really is. I have the advantage of having seen both sides and I feel much freer now experiencing the fulness of life.




    If the Bible god is the omnipotent being that you believe he is, then he should have no trouble "inspiring" people to write his words correctly. People do not have to be scientists to take proper dictation, it should be no more difficult for god to reveal correct scientific facts versus erroneous ones.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Hi Rose:

    Let me repeat... GOD is not trying to write a science book out of the Bible. The purposes of GOD in using people to write "inspired" ideas into words and language is beyond me to fully understand. If you read the story of Baalam GOD spoke through the DONKEY! So as Jesus said, "If you shut up the children, the rocks will cry out!" GOD is not in the business of writing a scientific book. The mystery of immortality is the reason for the season! The whole purpose of any belief system is to reveal the magical process whereby man is saved eternally. PERIOD.

    Namaste,

    Mystykal

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by L67 View Post
    I'll show you one example. http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/markauthor.html

    Name:  palestine.gif
Views: 24
Size:  9.8 KB


    Another mistake occurred in the episode on the healing of the demoniac. This incident occurred in the region of the Gerasenes, or Gerasa. Mark 5:1 makes Jesus cross the Sea of Galilee to reach Gerasa, implying that Gerasa was a city close to the lake:

    Mark 5:1
    They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[c]

    Similarly in Mark 5:13 Jesus allowed the demons to leave the man and enter the herd of pigs nearby which then rushed headlong over a precipice into the lake:

    Mark 5:13
    He [Jesus] gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

    From these readings it is obvious that Mark meant Gerasa to be a town situated near the Sea of Galilee. However look at the map again. Gerasa is more than fifty kilometers to the southeast of the Sea of Galilee!! There is not even a hint of any lake nearby.[d] As the Biblical scholars of Jesus Seminar so deliciously remarked:

    Gerasa is located approximately thirty miles to the southeast of the Sea of Galilee, not exactly a convenient location for the drowning of the pigs. Matthew relocates the demoniac to Gadara, which is only six miles from the lakeshore. Later scribes tried other remedies to accomodate the pigs.[7]



    It would be impossible for Jesus to accomplish what Mark said he did. Mark placed the drowning of the pigs 30 miles out in the middle of nowhere. There is no way an eyewitness could screw the location up that bad. And Mathew tries to correct Marks mistake and still we have a distance far off. Now we have two gospels that contradict each other. This is only one of many many contradictions between the gospels.
    This is not proof that Jesus did not cast out demons. Apparent errors in the geographical names and locations is not proof Jesus did not cast out demons. The apparent inaccuracies or errors between the gospels are usually reconciled where there is a will to do so. A comparison of the Gospels and there differences is a separate subject and is best tackled in a separate thread.


    David

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