Google Ads

Google Ads

Bible Wheel Book

Google Ads

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 60
  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Not everyone thinks as you do Rose. There are more than you think who accept the order in Genesis is correct. I am not going to attempt to reconcile the Creation with Evolution, even though I can accept a logical order in the complexity of creation leading up to man and the most complex of organs; the human brain.
    If we use our brains, and look at the words closely, Genesis is not saying that water flooded the earth. The words indicate that areas of water existed everywhere and that God gathered them together to form the seas and so where water was, before it was "gathered together", dry land was left behind. It does not say, there was no dry land at all before God gathered the waters together. The Creation story is not meant to be a lesson in science and we are not told in great detail what took place. It is sufficient to present a simple story and yet in that simplicity, the few facts we are given show a logical progression and a correct order to the establishment of creating the environment into which man would be created.
    Hi David

    I'm sure there are many, many Christians who think the order of Genesis is correct because they have no choice if they believe that the Bible is god's word.

    How can you possibly say that there is a "logical progression" and "correct order" to the days of creation contained in Genesis? With the few statements that are made, I listed out three HUGE problems: Genesis is absolutely saying that in the beginning the waters covered the earth and that dry land was brought forth afterward from dividing the waters on the second day. Also, day and night (which is caused by the earth orbiting the sun) are ordered on the first day, whereas the sun and stars appear on the fourth day after the plants are created on the third day. The proper logical order should be: sun > earth (dry land) > water > plants and animals. If the biblical god really exists he could have easily conveyed the proper order to primitive man, there is no reason not to. Here is a article you should read about the proper order of Genesis: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...nding-genesis/



    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    We have problems understanding the beginning, whether that be; where did God come from? or where did matter come from?. The Bible is dealing more about life and the relationship between God and man. God has revealed himself to people some of whom are the prophets giving his people his message. These messages were written down and preserved so that it could be seen whether the prophet was telling the truth. If the Jew's ancient scriptures and in particular the prophecies as spoken by the prophets, were just the writings of men, then the prophecies of future events would not have happened and your point would be proven. However, there is much prophecy that has been fulfilled. Even Preterists, who I disagree with about the date of the fulfilment, do not doubt the fulfilment of prophecy.
    I know the evidence I put forward as fulfilled prophecy is denied by those who just want to deny it, yet prophecy, and foretelling the future, is the only test that proves the existence of God. Who else can tell you a thing before it happens? There is not a man or woman who can accurately predict the future. I have the proof of prophecy in God's word, which science alone cannot give any proof for. The fact that you reject the proof given in the Bible in favor of science is up to you, but you cannot say the people who believe the Bible do not have proof.

    All the best
    David
    You are correct in saying that generally people cannot accurately predict the future, that is why most of the prophecies in the Bible are wrong (unless words are twisted and contorted to try and make them say something other than what is written), because the Bible was written by men. It is not the job of science to try and prove the Bible wrong or right, the job of science is to interpret the evidence and make conclusions based on that evidence. Science is self correcting, if an hypothesis doesn't hold up it is trashed, because knowledge cannot be based on falsehoods which don't hold up (airplanes don't fly and computers don't compute based on false knowledge). Whereas, the job of Bible believers is to make the Bible appear truthful and correct no matter what lengths they must go to in justifying its words.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    East of West!
    Posts
    411

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Mystykal

    Your pattern of thought really does baffle me. Why in the world would you take an illogical order of how things were created, contained in an ancient book based on mythology, written by primitive men and think that an intelligent mind would work that way? If there truly is an intelligence that created the logically ordered world we see around us, then it stands to reason that the intelligent beings he created could figure out the order of creation because it would be logical (like it is). Why would you ever think that a haphazard, mixed up order is a valid perspective? From logical, rational thought we can conclude if there is a intelligent creator, the Bible is definitely NOT his word! The extremes people go to try and validate the creation myth in Genesis is quite astounding...here is a good article addressing that issue http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...nding-genesis/

    If you are at all familiar with ancient near east myths, you will know that the Genesis account of creation is probably based on the myth of the goddess of the ocean Tiamat contained in the Enuma Elish, which is the Babylonian story of creation. In Enuma Elish, Tiamat (the Hebrew word for deep tehowm is probably derived from Tiamat) is killed by the storm god Marduk and her body is divided to make the heavens and the oceans. Many scholars believe that the biblical story of creation was based on the much older myth of creation contained in the Enuma Elish, which would explain the crazy mixed up order that Genesis contains.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Hi Rose:

    You bring up some very good questions... I was just trying to get you to see that the story of creation in the Bible is NOT about the FACTS! It's a story which builds on a "GOD Model" which cannot be specifically placed anywhere. I know you would like GOD to be "LOGICAL" according to the logic of a person living today. But that is not the way the Bible is written. To say that "cavemen" idiots wrote the Bbile is to deny the Divine origins of the book itself. So then you have to say that the GOD of the Bible does not exist! Then you have to conclude that NO GOD exists! Or at least you cannot know them if they do! That is the logical conclusion.....

    So that other alternatives as to why the "facts" of Genesis seem so illogical...

    A. Stupid people are repeating myths
    B. The order of creation is following a pattern
    C. GOD inspired holy men to write the ideas down as a way to show us how to obtain immortality.

    So... if those are our choices and we must conclude that the Bible and inspired writings in general are here to show us the "bigger picture" - then I have to go with C. answer!

    You want things to make sense in a bubble which you create and then destroy! That is the ultimate "straw man" argument! I am looking at the creation story as a hidden puzzle where the Rabbi's discovered the 72 names for the GOD of Creation. The hidden forms of mystery are far more important in terms of accuracy than the surface information found in the story. Some whould say it is the hidden aspects which are so important that despite the alterations in the words themselves over time - the hidden meanings have stayed intact! The mystery of Holiness is still present. "You will find me when you search for me with all of your heart." This axiom still holds true!

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 06-18-2013 at 02:35 AM.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,564
    Hello Rose

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David

    I'm sure there are many, many Christians who think the order of Genesis is correct because they have no choice if they believe that the Bible is god's word.

    How can you possibly say that there is a "logical progression" and "correct order" to the days of creation contained in Genesis? With the few statements that are made, I listed out three HUGE problems: Genesis is absolutely saying that in the beginning the waters covered the earth and that dry land was brought forth afterward from dividing the waters on the second day. Also, day and night (which is caused by the earth orbiting the sun) are ordered on the first day, whereas the sun and stars appear on the fourth day after the plants are created on the third day. The proper logical order should be: sun > earth (dry land) > water > plants and animals. If the biblical god really exists he could have easily conveyed the proper order to primitive man, there is no reason not to. Here is a article you should read about the proper order of Genesis: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...nding-genesis/
    The fact that God gave light to begin with did not need the Sun. In fact you make the point that the Sun was created or put in orbit after the plants. As we know, this was for God to set times and seasons. This means God was supplying the light necessary. A day could have been any length of time because it was not governed by the Sun. We are told God divided the light from the darkness and exactly what that meant and how it was implemented is open to question. It allows for the possibility that whilst God was creating the plants, then the animals (note; in the correct sequence) when God had finished the work representing one day, there could have been a period of darkness like God turning off his lights until the next day starts and the next phase of creation begins. The sun and moon are irrelevant until required for man. It does not change the fact that God while creating the animals could have continued to give his light all over the earth to sustain the plants and animals.
    The Sun and moon are the most important astronomical bodies in our universe and almost as an incidental fact, it is mentioned; "God made the stars also". In the wisdom of God in which it simply states that God stretched out the heavens, at that time, the position of the stars and planets were such that we have the astronomical signs in the heavens. By the time man is made, everything is in place and man's day is governed by the sun. The agricultural calendar is also governed by the sun.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    You are correct in saying that generally people cannot accurately predict the future, that is why most of the prophecies in the Bible are wrong (unless words are twisted and contorted to try and make them say something other than what is written), because the Bible was written by men.
    Is that an admission from you that some of the prophecies in the Bible are correct? It is wrong not to correct the way verses have been translated in order to find the true meaning as the author intended. In many cases, our misunderstanding comes from the choice of words by the translators. It is not twisting words to get to the correct meaning of what the author(s) intended us to understand. The Bible is totally correct and I see more prophecies being fulfilled than you do. I have no doubt all prophecy will be fulfilled, even though I cannot predict the exact date and sequence of events. There is plenty happening right now to show me prophecy is being fulfilled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    It is not the job of science to try and prove the Bible wrong or right, the job of science is to interpret the evidence and make conclusions based on that evidence. Science is self correcting, if an hypothesis doesn't hold up it is trashed, because knowledge cannot be based on falsehoods which don't hold up (airplanes don't fly and computers don't compute based on false knowledge). Whereas, the job of Bible believers is to make the Bible appear truthful and correct no matter what lengths they must go to in justifying its words.
    I could say it is not the Bible's job to prove science right or wrong. Much of science we accept and it is good that we have the God-given ability in our minds to search these things out. It shows that God has set laws in place that govern the universe and that God's word remains as constant as the laws which govern the universe. What cannot be known is the power and the way in which God is able to create. The God-factor can do things we cannot imagine and yet science is trying to forge links to explain the observable things that only God is able to explain, but has not done so.

    There is much of science that is open to speculation and is based on hypotheses. Astro-physics is one and Evolution is another. The theory of Evolution has a long way to go before it will convince me. I know there is a lot of information gathered and much has been done to find the links, and lots of similarities have been found to suggest a link, but so much remains conjecture that Evolution is not proven to be certain. We shall always have the problem of origins to think about in science, whereas the origin of the universe which is God, gives all the explanation required for those who believe in God. It is what we do with our lives and the way we live that is far more important than what we know of the origin of things. Some people do not want to do anything with their lives and that is their choice.

    Since you mention computers, I will make the point that I made in another post and Greatest I am (DL) did not answer. (DL please take note. Rose replies in the way you do not or cannot).
    What if the greatest artificial intelligence, which has been made by man, collects information and comes to the conclusion it has evolved. What would you say to the artificial intelligence? How would you prove to the artificial intelligence it did not evolve?

    The problem can be taken a stage further. Let's say the artificial intelligence can control a mass of machines and robots to make the components which are necessary to make a duplicate of itself, but it does not pass on the instructions to the next intelligence it has just built. Now this newly built intelligence from the information it learns (not knowing about how it was built) comes to the conclusion it evolved. Maybe it thinks it has come from previous computers with the intelligence to replicate themselves and it can do the same. How do you answer this computer/intelligence knowing what you know?

    All the best

    David

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose


    The fact that God gave light to begin with did not need the Sun. In fact you make the point that the Sun was created or put in orbit after the plants. As we know, this was for God to set times and seasons. This means God was supplying the light necessary. A day could have been any length of time because it was not governed by the Sun. We are told God divided the light from the darkness and exactly what that meant and how it was implemented is open to question. It allows for the possibility that whilst God was creating the plants, then the animals (note; in the correct sequence) when God had finished the work representing one day, there could have been a period of darkness like God turning off his lights until the next day starts and the next phase of creation begins. The sun and moon are irrelevant until required for man. It does not change the fact that God while creating the animals could have continued to give his light all over the earth to sustain the plants and animals.
    The Sun and moon are the most important astronomical bodies in our universe and almost as an incidental fact, it is mentioned; "God made the stars also". In the wisdom of God in which it simply states that God stretched out the heavens, at that time, the position of the stars and planets were such that we have the astronomical signs in the heavens. By the time man is made, everything is in place and man's day is governed by the sun. The agricultural calendar is also governed by the sun.
    Hi David

    There is a big difference between creating light and calling the division of light and darkness, day and night. Day and night are specific terms connected to the rotation of the earth around the sun. The way in which the entire Bible uses the word day is in reference to hours of the suns light on earth. The problem is Genesis says that god created light and called the light "Day", so apparently the authors of the Bible were confused and thought that light was a concept different than the sun. Also, primitive man's idea of heaven was separate from the stars that fill the universe, heaven was the abode of god and the angels. So, if the Bible was not meant to convey the way in which its authors thought god created the earth and heaven, then it should not have been structured in a day by day progressive manner (which is logically wrong).


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Is that an admission from you that some of the prophecies in the Bible are correct? It is wrong not to correct the way verses have been translated in order to find the true meaning as the author intended. In many cases, our misunderstanding comes from the choice of words by the translators. It is not twisting words to get to the correct meaning of what the author(s) intended us to understand. The Bible is totally correct and I see more prophecies being fulfilled than you do. I have no doubt all prophecy will be fulfilled, even though I cannot predict the exact date and sequence of events. There is plenty happening right now to show me prophecy is being fulfilled.
    Even astrologers and psychics are right in their predictions some of the time, this does not mean they are really able to see into the future. The same holds true for the Bible, if there are some prophecies that appear to have been fulfilled they are well within the expected percentages that would happen by making well educated guesses. A true all knowing god would be correct 100% of the time with NO errors, and if the Bible was meant to be a guide to knowing god, humans should not have to struggle with trying to interpret it.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I could say it is not the Bible's job to prove science right or wrong. Much of science we accept and it is good that we have the God-given ability in our minds to search these things out. It shows that God has set laws in place that govern the universe and that God's word remains as constant as the laws which govern the universe. What cannot be known is the power and the way in which God is able to create. The God-factor can do things we cannot imagine and yet science is trying to forge links to explain the observable things that only God is able to explain, but has not done so.
    If god truly did create all things, why should there be any problem in discovering the laws he used in the creation process? The real issue is not so much IF there is an intelligent mind behind the creation process, but rather that the Bible god is thought to be that mind. Step by step everything that humans discover about the natural world directly contradicts the biblical explanation of how things began. Science is not anti-god, but rather it is pro-discovery, it is not the fault of the scientists if the evidence does not support the Bible. The Bible reflects the primitive state of mans knowledge at that point in history, which is normal...one does not expect an immature child to understand advanced mathematics. At the time of the Bibles authorship humans were still in their infancy as far as scientific discoveries were concerned, so if there were an intelligent mind behind the creation of the universe one would not expect him to reveal things to children that they cannot understand.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    There is much of science that is open to speculation and is based on hypotheses. Astro-physics is one and Evolution is another. The theory of Evolution has a long way to go before it will convince me. I know there is a lot of information gathered and much has been done to find the links, and lots of similarities have been found to suggest a link, but so much remains conjecture that Evolution is not proven to be certain. We shall always have the problem of origins to think about in science, whereas the origin of the universe which is God, gives all the explanation required for those who believe in God. It is what we do with our lives and the way we live that is far more important than what we know of the origin of things. Some people do not want to do anything with their lives and that is their choice.
    If all the truckloads of facts concerning Evolution does not convince you, why were you so easily convinced that an archaic book, written by primitive men, and full of errors, is the word of god? Shouldn't you hold the Bible to the same standards that you hold science to?


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Since you mention computers, I will make the point that I made in another post and Greatest I am (DL) did not answer. (DL please take note. Rose replies in the way you do not or cannot).
    What if the greatest artificial intelligence, which has been made by man, collects information and comes to the conclusion it has evolved. What would you say to the artificial intelligence? How would you prove to the artificial intelligence it did not evolve?

    The problem can be taken a stage further. Let's say the artificial intelligence can control a mass of machines and robots to make the components which are necessary to make a duplicate of itself, but it does not pass on the instructions to the next intelligence it has just built. Now this newly built intelligence from the information it learns (not knowing about how it was built) comes to the conclusion it evolved. Maybe it thinks it has come from previous computers with the intelligence to replicate themselves and it can do the same. How do you answer this computer/intelligence knowing what you know?

    All the best

    David
    The problem with "what ifs" is that we have no way of knowing if that scenario could ever happen, so there are way to many unknowns for me to even attempt to speculate. When we compare the way living organisms evolve, to the way a computer is constructed of parts, we see a huge difference in the way that life unfolds out of itself in a continuous unbroken chain; whereas anything that humans make is constructed of individual parts that have no innate connection. Therefore I don't think they can be compared. When you think about the massive amount of time it took for the first prokaryotic cells to evolve into eukaryotic cells - 1.7 billion years - it makes you realize just how slow a process evolution is. One tiny change at a time, over billions of years accomplishes a lot.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Rose:

    You bring up some very good questions... I was just trying to get you to see that the story of creation in the Bible is NOT about the FACTS! It's a story which builds on a "GOD Model" which cannot be specifically placed anywhere. I know you would like GOD to be "LOGICAL" according to the logic of a person living today. But that is not the way the Bible is written. To say that "cavemen" idiots wrote the Bbile is to deny the Divine origins of the book itself. So then you have to say that the GOD of the Bible does not exist! Then you have to conclude that NO GOD exists! Or at least you cannot know them if they do! That is the logical conclusion.....
    Hi Mystykal

    The creation story in the Bible is absolutely presented as the way Yahweh created earth and heaven! It is laid out in a progressive manner that recounts each step in the process. The biblical authors would have no reason to present creation in an order other than how they perceived things happened, and if god inspired the biblical authors there would be no logical reason to present the creation order in a mixed up erroneous fashion. Humans could have understood the correct order just as easily as the incorrect order. So, yes, the ultimate conclusion is that NO biblical god exists and men made up the story of creation based on their own primitive perceptions of how the universe began.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    So that other alternatives as to why the "facts" of Genesis seem so illogical...

    A. Stupid people are repeating myths
    B. The order of creation is following a pattern
    C. GOD inspired holy men to write the ideas down as a way to show us how to obtain immortality.

    So... if those are our choices and we must conclude that the Bible and inspired writings in general are here to show us the "bigger picture" - then I have to go with C. answer!

    You want things to make sense in a bubble which you create and then destroy! That is the ultimate "straw man" argument! I am looking at the creation story as a hidden puzzle where the Rabbi's discovered the 72 names for the GOD of Creation. The hidden forms of mystery are far more important in terms of accuracy than the surface information found in the story. Some whould say it is the hidden aspects which are so important that despite the alterations in the words themselves over time - the hidden meanings have stayed intact! The mystery of Holiness is still present. "You will find me when you search for me with all of your heart." This axiom still holds true!

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Answer C does not really make a lot of sense when one considers the fact that the Old Testament does not deal with immortality or the after life. If it is the hidden aspects of Scripture that are most important, then 99.999% of all people who have ever lived were and are ignorant of what is most important!

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    East of West!
    Posts
    411
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Mystykal

    The creation story in the Bible is absolutely presented as the way Yahweh created earth and heaven! It is laid out in a progressive manner that recounts each step in the process. The biblical authors would have no reason to present creation in an order other than how they perceived things happened, and if god inspired the biblical authors there would be no logical reason to present the creation order in a mixed up erroneous fashion. Humans could have understood the correct order just as easily as the incorrect order. So, yes, the ultimate conclusion is that NO biblical god exists and men made up the story of creation based on their own primitive perceptions of how the universe began.



    Answer C does not really make a lot of sense when one considers the fact that the Old Testament does not deal with immortality or the after life. If it is the hidden aspects of Scripture that are most important, then 99.999% of all people who have ever lived were and are ignorant of what is most important!

    Take care,
    Rose
    Hi Rose:

    Maybe you and I are reading different Bibles! But to say that "Answer C does not really make a lot of sense when one considers the fact that the Old Testament does not deal with immortality or the after life."... Is crazy! The whole after-life issue is started in the garden and the lie of the snake when it says "Ye shall not surely die!" And the reason according to Genesis as to why Adam and Eve were forced out of the garden was that GOD did not want them to eat from the tree of life and live FOREVER! The notion that they could eat one time and live forever does not hold as the tree gave a different fruit each month of the year. And the leaves of the tree "are for the healing of the nations." Revelation 22:2

    So just taking the facts of the STORY the issue of order is not the issue! The day is not made by the sun. But by the rotation of the earth on its axis. You really need to start letting the Book tell its own story! Stop trying to "prove" it right or wrong! The issue is more about why such a book like the Bible has mesmerized people for thousands of years? It does seem strange! However, as you say "If it is the hidden aspects of Scripture that are most important, then 99.999% of all people who have ever lived were and are ignorant of what is most important!" The important stuff IS hidden in the text itself and "few there be that find it."

    Namaste,

    Mystykal

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Rose:

    Maybe you and I are reading different Bibles! But to say that "Answer C does not really make a lot of sense when one considers the fact that the Old Testament does not deal with immortality or the after life."... Is crazy! The whole after-life issue is started in the garden and the lie of the snake when it says "Ye shall not surely die!" And the reason according to Genesis as to why Adam and Eve were forced out of the garden was that GOD did not want them to eat from the tree of life and live FOREVER! The notion that they could eat one time and live forever does not hold as the tree gave a different fruit each month of the year. And the leaves of the tree "are for the healing of the nations." Revelation 22:2
    Hello Mystykal

    No we are not reading different Bibles, it is just that most people are unaware that the Old Testament rarely speaks of immortality or the afterlife outside of its mention in Genesis, so apparently it wasn't a very important issue! Another odd thing is that the Garden story is never mentioned in the Old Testament, outside of the first few chapters of Genesis...which begs the question "Adam, where are you hiding?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    So just taking the facts of the STORY the issue of order is not the issue! The day is not made by the sun. But by the rotation of the earth on its axis. You really need to start letting the Book tell its own story! Stop trying to "prove" it right or wrong! The issue is more about why such a book like the Bible has mesmerized people for thousands of years? It does seem strange! However, as you say "If it is the hidden aspects of Scripture that are most important, then 99.999% of all people who have ever lived were and are ignorant of what is most important!" The important stuff IS hidden in the text itself and "few there be that find it."

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    I said that day is created by the rotation of the earth around the sun, the Bible says day was created when god said "Let there be light" before the sun, moon and stars appeared and calling the dividing of light evening and morning of the first day. If you will notice it is the dividing of light and dark that causes the first day in verse 5, but then in verses 14-18 it says that god put lights in the heavens to give light to the earth and divide day from night and light from darkness.
    Gen.1:3-5 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

    Gen.1:13-18 And the evening and the morning were the third day. And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

    If light is divided from darkness causing the first day, why does it need another whole day devoted to making it happen again on the fourth day? Kinda repetitive wouldn't you say.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    666
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Rose:
    I will try and be a little bit more precise. The order of creation in Genesis is NOT subject to any "laws" of science. Since GOD "did it" your logic in saying that the Bible must follow the ideas as laid out in the big bang model is FALSE. The idea that the sun is the ONLY light source for plants to grow and therefore the Bible IS WRONG - is well just wrong. You see your logic is not based on the same perspective which the Bible contends is the "God model". So your ideas are in opposition to the "Word of GOD". Period. The Bible is not supposed to follow the big bang model. The two perspectives are just that - two different perspectives.

    Namaste,

    Mystykal

    Not subject to any "laws of science"? That's ridiculous. Because you don't know God did it. Christians assert God as all powerful, and yet the Bible portrays him as surprisingly limited in his powers.

    Judges 1:19 19 And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

    Say what? How can the creator of the universe fail to accomplish such a petty task?

    He is also shockingly not all knowing either.

    Hosea 8:4 4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

    This falls in line with Yahweh being a tribal ward god. Ironically Yahweh is short for " Yahweh Sabaoth" , which means "he who musters armies." http://www.biblicalheritage.org/God/el-goi.htm

    Exodues 15:3 also tells us Yahweh is a man of war. 3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

    I won't go any further because it is obvious Yahweh had nothing to do with the creation of anything. The Bible is nothing more than the writings of primitive men.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix


  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,564
    Hello Rose

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David

    I'm sure there are many, many Christians who think the order of Genesis is correct because they have no choice if they believe that the Bible is god's word.
    I know scientists who are Christians and they consider the order of Genesis to be correct. The creation story is correct in the little we are told. It is obvious the Creator does not need to go into detail in order to make known to us the basic origin of life and to say that is was created and did not evolve from nothing all by itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    How can you possibly say that there is a "logical progression" and "correct order" to the days of creation contained in Genesis? With the few statements that are made, I listed out three HUGE problems: Genesis is absolutely saying that in the beginning the waters covered the earth and that dry land was brought forth afterward from dividing the waters on the second day. Also, day and night (which is caused by the earth orbiting the sun) are ordered on the first day, whereas the sun and stars appear on the fourth day after the plants are created on the third day. The proper logical order should be: sun > earth (dry land) > water > plants and animals. If the biblical god really exists he could have easily conveyed the proper order to primitive man, there is no reason not to. Here is a article you should read about the proper order of Genesis: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...nding-genesis/
    There is nothing wrong in the order God created life upon the earth. You are not able to generate light or heat as God is able to; in act you are powerless to do anything. I am not going to argue over things that are of no real importance. Without God, as an explanation, you obviously have to resort to science to give you all the answers. I do not, and for reasons I have already explained to you and Richard, I have confidence in God's word and that as far as the facts of history are concerned the Bible is a true record. The message of the Bible is of fundamental importance for as Paul wrote to Timothy (2 Tim 3:15) the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    You are correct in saying that generally people cannot accurately predict the future, that is why most of the prophecies in the Bible are wrong (unless words are twisted and contorted to try and make them say something other than what is written), because the Bible was written by men.
    Of course you know I have completely the opposite view of the Bible that you do. It is not because people cannot predict when things mentioned in prophecies will take place that means the prophecies are wrong. The prophecies are correct and we just do not always interpret them correctly or forecast the dates correctly. It is impossible in light of what Jesus said; no man knoweth the day or the hour Many prophecies have been fulfilled and there are prophecies even now that are being fulfilled. Of course you can reject all the evidence, but your rejection does not change the facts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    It is not the job of science to try and prove the Bible wrong or right, the job of science is to interpret the evidence and make conclusions based on that evidence. Science is self correcting, if an hypothesis doesn't hold up it is trashed, because knowledge cannot be based on falsehoods which don't hold up (airplanes don't fly and computers don't compute based on false knowledge). Whereas, the job of Bible believers is to make the Bible appear truthful and correct no matter what lengths they must go to in justifying its words.
    it is this fact that science does change its hypotheses as new information comes about that proves that science can still change. Science is still looking for answers and there is no certainty that science will find all the answers. it does not really matter since science is not going to prevent me from dying or able to make me live for ever. With a future like this at stake, it does not matter to me what science finds our or not. The reliability of God's word is what is important. The fact that many Churches disagree on what the Bible teaches is not the fault of the Bible, it is the fault of man. There simply is not the number of errors in the Bible that you say there are. And it is not twisting or words to get to the Bible to say what I want it to. Many of the errors in the Bible have been introduced by the translators and copyists. Words have been inserted and omitted from the original texts which leads to error and confusion. I do not let one or two strange verses distract me from the abundance of passages confirming the consistent message. The additions and subtractions have slowly come to light and when the original text is examined (as far to the original as we can get) many of the problems introduced into the Bible are solved and eliminated. Of course you can reject all these findings and stick to your own opinion of the Bible, but it is not an opinion I share.

    You say; "airplanes don't fly and computers don't compute based on false knowledge"; you don't know the man-made faults that are built into aircraft and computers that often go unnoticed for years. Airplanes might be the safest form of transport. The theory of flight is sound, but when you analyse the number of aircraft failures, they are generally the fault of man, which could have been avoided. Regardless of all the safety procedures and checking procedures, the weakest link is man. If I have to put my trust in man or God, then I choose God every time.

    All the best
    David
    Last edited by David M; 06-20-2013 at 02:57 PM.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose

    I know scientists who are Christians and they consider the order of Genesis to be correct. The creation story is correct in the little we are told. It is obvious the Creator does not need to go into detail in order to make known to us the basic origin of life and to say that is was created and did not evolve from nothing all by itself.

    There is nothing wrong in the order God created life upon the earth. You are not able to generate light or heat as God is able to; in act you are powerless to do anything. I am not going to argue over things that are of no real importance. Without God, as an explanation, you obviously have to resort to science to give you all the answers. I do not, and for reasons I have already explained to you and Richard, I have confidence in God's word and that as far as the facts of history are concerned the Bible is a true record. The message of the Bible is of fundamental importance for as Paul wrote to Timothy (2 Tim 3:15) the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    Hi David

    No legitimate scientist would ever say the order of creation in Genesis is correct, because it's not. The earth did not begin by being covered in water, dry land did not emerge out of the oceans, plants which are living organisms did not evolve before their was sunlight, and the sun and stars were formed before the earth not after the earth.





    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    it is this fact that science does change its hypotheses as new information comes about that proves that science can still change. Science is still looking for answers and there is no certainty that science will find all the answers. it does not really matter since science is not going to prevent me from dying or able to make me live for ever. With a future like this at stake, it does not matter to me what science finds our or not. The reliability of God's word is what is important. The fact that many Churches disagree on what the Bible teaches is not the fault of the Bible, it is the fault of man. There simply is not the number of errors in the Bible that you say there are. And it is not twisting or words to get to the Bible to say what I want it to. Many of the errors in the Bible have been introduced by the translators and copyists. Words have been inserted and omitted from the original texts which leads to error and confusion. I do not let one or two strange verses distract me from the abundance of passages confirming the consistent message. The additions and subtractions have slowly come to light and when the original text is examined (as far to the original as we can get) many of the problems introduced into the Bible are solved and eliminated. Of course you can reject all these findings and stick to your own opinion of the Bible, but it is not an opinion I share.
    Science is indeed still looking for answers and is open to correct itself when proven wrong, which is in contrast to the Bible that can never be changed no matter how wrong it is. How can you say the Bible is reliable when it is continually shown to be wrong? If the Bible had one error it would be too many, but we all know that it has many more than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    You say; "airplanes don't fly and computers don't compute based on false knowledge"; you don't know the man-made faults that are built into aircraft and computers that often go unnoticed for years. Airplanes might be the safest form of transport. The theory of flight is sound, but when you analyse the number of aircraft failures, they are generally the fault of man, which could have been avoided. Regardless of all the safety procedures and checking procedures, the weakest link is man. If I have to put my trust in man or God, then I choose God every time.

    All the best
    David
    Just because man makes faulty machinery doesn't mean the logic behind it is faulty. If the logic was faulty the plane would never get off the ground, the computer would not compute properly, and medicines wouldn't heal people. The biblical method to cure diseases is to pray the demons out, which we all know doesn't work that is why up until antibiotics were discovered people died of infections and no amount of prayer helped them.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may edit your posts
  •