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  1. #1
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    When Did The Oceans Form?

    The biblical account of creation begins with the earth being covered in deep oceans.

    Gen.1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    After that the waters are divided by a firmament which separates the waters above from the waters below…

    Gen.1:6-7 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

    Then the Bible says that dry land was made to appear…
    Gen.1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

    The problem with the Genesis account of the earth’s creation is that the oceans did not form before the land. Every scientific theory on how the earth was formed begins with collisions inside a giant cloud of dust and rocks. The early earth consisted of molten rock and volatile gases…there were no oceans yet. Only after a few hundred million years did the earth’s surface cool enough for water to start condensing into oceans.

    “Over millions of years, Earth’s thick steam atmosphere slowly cooled to the point where water was stable as liquid. Clouds formed and the atmosphere rained on the oceans — probably one very shallow ocean covering the planet’s surface, since the continents likely did not yet exist. (Since no geologic record exists for the first 150 million years of the Earth’s history, we can only speculate.) By 4.2 billion years ago, the age of some of the oldest rocks, we know there was liquid water on the Earth’s surface, and that the atmosphere was never so hot that it turned to steam nor so cold that it all froze.” http://www.amnh.org/learn/ocean/Resource1

    Once again it seems the Bible has gotten things screwed up…if the biblical authors are going to make the claim that god created the heavens and the earth they better get it right!



    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The biblical account of creation begins with the earth being covered in deep oceans.

    Gen.1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    After that the waters are divided by a firmament which separates the waters above from the waters below…

    Gen.1:6-7 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

    Then the Bible says that dry land was made to appear…
    Gen.1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

    The problem with the Genesis account of the earth’s creation is that the oceans did not form before the land. Every scientific theory on how the earth was formed begins with collisions inside a giant cloud of dust and rocks. The early earth consisted of molten rock and volatile gases…there were no oceans yet. Only after a few hundred million years did the earth’s surface cool enough for water to start condensing into oceans.

    “Over millions of years, Earth’s thick steam atmosphere slowly cooled to the point where water was stable as liquid. Clouds formed and the atmosphere rained on the oceans — probably one very shallow ocean covering the planet’s surface, since the continents likely did not yet exist. (Since no geologic record exists for the first 150 million years of the Earth’s history, we can only speculate.) By 4.2 billion years ago, the age of some of the oldest rocks, we know there was liquid water on the Earth’s surface, and that the atmosphere was never so hot that it turned to steam nor so cold that it all froze.” http://www.amnh.org/learn/ocean/Resource1

    Once again it seems the Bible has gotten things screwed up…if the biblical authors are going to make the claim that god created the heavens and the earth they better get it right!

    Rose
    Hello Rose
    The only one who is screwed up is you. From this last quote in which you have given the link to, it is not saying there was not water on the earth. Given that the earth is as old as it is reckoned, there is nothing in the creation story to conflict with what how science reckon the earth was formed and eventually water covered the earth.
    As with all these records dealing with the origins, we have to be careful about what we think based on what the Bible says and also what the Bible does not say. In the general order of things, the Bible is accurate and is not conflicting with how science reckons the earth was formed. It is in the detail, which is not given in the Bible and even scientists were not there to know in detail how things happened and so they have to speculate using their best scientific judgement.

    God starts with the earth that had been formed in advance and was as described "without form and void". In other words; it had no order to it, but it suited God's purpose to take what was there and transform it. This is where science begins to part company with creation. The problem with the creation story is only in the fact that we do not have all the detail. We have a general order to things and that is it. We are given enough to explain that the earth as we see it did not come about by itself. It is what the Bible does not tell us, that gives us room to speculate.

    You have admitted that in the scientific understanding of how the earth came into existence, that oceans eventually formed. This is the starting point for Genesis and for God to use the earth for his purpose.

    The biblical author (God) has got it right and you are so anti the Bible as God's word, you have failed to see that your scientific theory fits in with what Genesis tells us. Please tell me how the matter in the universe came into existence. Science has no explanation other than to say it began from a singularity from which we have the Big Bang and science has not fully explained how that singularity produced the fundamental particles and the forces that are universal.

    Unless a full explanation is found, in which there are no hypotheses, there is no reason to rule out God.

    All the best


    David

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The biblical account of creation begins with the earth being covered in deep oceans.

    Gen.1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    After that the waters are divided by a firmament which separates the waters above from the waters below…

    Gen.1:6-7 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

    Then the Bible says that dry land was made to appear…
    Gen.1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

    The problem with the Genesis account of the earth’s creation is that the oceans did not form before the land. Every scientific theory on how the earth was formed begins with collisions inside a giant cloud of dust and rocks. The early earth consisted of molten rock and volatile gases…there were no oceans yet. Only after a few hundred million years did the earth’s surface cool enough for water to start condensing into oceans.

    “Over millions of years, Earth’s thick steam atmosphere slowly cooled to the point where water was stable as liquid. Clouds formed and the atmosphere rained on the oceans — probably one very shallow ocean covering the planet’s surface, since the continents likely did not yet exist. (Since no geologic record exists for the first 150 million years of the Earth’s history, we can only speculate.) By 4.2 billion years ago, the age of some of the oldest rocks, we know there was liquid water on the Earth’s surface, and that the atmosphere was never so hot that it turned to steam nor so cold that it all froze.” http://www.amnh.org/learn/ocean/Resource1

    Once again it seems the Bible has gotten things screwed up…if the biblical authors are going to make the claim that god created the heavens and the earth they better get it right!



    Rose
    Hi Rose:
    You said. "Once again it seems the Bible has gotten things screwed up…if the biblical authors are going to make the claim that god created the heavens and the earth they better get it right!

    I am sure you realize that the creation story does not corrolate with the big bang at all! So "getting it right" is not on the table for those creationists that take the Bible as the Word of God. The facts of science are not considered facts at all. It's like apples and oranges... fruit yes but not really the same. So your observations are really not going to help the mind which is already thinking that the Bible IS the Word of God.

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    ]

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The biblical author (God) has got it right and you are so anti the Bible as God's word, you have failed to see that your scientific theory fits in with what Genesis tells us. Please tell me how the matter in the universe came into existence. Science has no explanation other than to say it began from a singularity from which we have the Big Bang and science has not fully explained how that singularity produced the fundamental particles and the forces that are universal.

    Unless a full explanation is found, in which there are no hypotheses, there is no reason to rule out God.
    Hey there David,

    I agree there is no reason to "rule out" any possibility of any kind of God since that is beyond human knowledge, but we have every reason to rule out Yahweh, the God of the Bible. And more to the point, we have no good reason to invent any "god" as an explanation for things that science cannot yet explain. That's just the "God of the gaps" argument that has been proven wrong in every case that could be tested.

    Your demand for a "full explanation" is a double standard because the Bible is filled gross errors and inconsistencies for which you have no "full explanation." Yet you blindly hold to your unfounded doctrine that the Bible is God's trustworthy word. How do you justify such a blatant inconsistency?

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose
    The only one who is screwed up is you.
    Well David, that was pretty rude! I never said you were screwed up only the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    From this last quote in which you have given the link to, it is not saying there was not water on the earth. Given that the earth is as old as it is reckoned, there is nothing in the creation story to conflict with what how science reckon the earth was formed and eventually water covered the earth.
    As with all these records dealing with the origins, we have to be careful about what we think based on what the Bible says and also what the Bible does not say. In the general order of things, the Bible is accurate and is not conflicting with how science reckons the earth was formed. It is in the detail, which is not given in the Bible and even scientists were not there to know in detail how things happened and so they have to speculate using their best scientific judgement.

    God starts with the earth that had been formed in advance and was as described "without form and void". In other words; it had no order to it, but it suited God's purpose to take what was there and transform it. This is where science begins to part company with creation. The problem with the creation story is only in the fact that we do not have all the detail. We have a general order to things and that is it. We are given enough to explain that the earth as we see it did not come about by itself. It is what the Bible does not tell us, that gives us room to speculate.

    You have admitted that in the scientific understanding of how the earth came into existence, that oceans eventually formed. This is the starting point for Genesis and for God to use the earth for his purpose.
    The Bible states that in the beginning when god created the earth it was without form (water is shapeless) and void (this could be a lack of any substance like dry land) and completely covered in water. The three stated conditions of earth's beginning formlessness, being void, and covered in water is how the Bible says earth was before dry land was made to appear. According to scientists the earth has never been completely covered in water without any dry land as the Bible says it was.

    The main problem with the biblical account of creation is the order of events. First; water covers the entire planet before there is dry land, second; day and night are created before the sun, and thirdly plants are created before the sun. Everyone knows that the order of Genesis is wrong and that is why Bible believers are constantly manipulating and twisting Scripture to say something different than it actually says.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The biblical author (God) has got it right and you are so anti the Bible as God's word, you have failed to see that your scientific theory fits in with what Genesis tells us. Please tell me how the matter in the universe came into existence. Science has no explanation other than to say it began from a singularity from which we have the Big Bang and science has not fully explained how that singularity produced the fundamental particles and the forces that are universal.

    Unless a full explanation is found, in which there are no hypotheses, there is no reason to rule out God.

    All the best


    David
    Just because science does not have all the answers to how the universe began, or how matter came into existence does not mean the biblegod did it. Science can easily say that the Bibles description of creation is wrong without knowing exactly how the universe began, and even though the Bible and its god are proved wrong and therefore false, some other form of higher intelligence could exist. It's not the job of science to prove god's existence, rather it is the job of those who believe in god to deliver proof of his existence. Believers are constantly demanding evidence and proof from science for every claim they make (and they well should), but no such proof or evidence is forthcoming for their claims of "God did it", so why the double standard? It should be a two way street, proof and evidence all the way around.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Rose:
    You said. "Once again it seems the Bible has gotten things screwed up…if the biblical authors are going to make the claim that god created the heavens and the earth they better get it right!

    I am sure you realize that the creation story does not corrolate with the big bang at all! So "getting it right" is not on the table for those creationists that take the Bible as the Word of God. The facts of science are not considered facts at all. It's like apples and oranges... fruit yes but not really the same. So your observations are really not going to help the mind which is already thinking that the Bible IS the Word of God.

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    ]
    Hi Mystykal

    Saying "the facts of science are not considered facts at all" is a pretty broad and general statement that is false and means nothing. The Bible makes definite statements as to the order of how the earth and heavens were formed. It is these statements that conflict with the facts of science: day and night did not happen before there was a sun, plants did not grow before there was a sun, and the earth was not completely covered with water before there was any dry land. Those are just facts which the Bible is in direct contradiction with and has nothing to do with trying to change the mind of a fundamentalist Bible believer.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Well David, that was pretty rude! I never said you were screwed up only the Bible.

    The Bible states that in the beginning when god created the earth it was without form (water is shapeless) and void (this could be a lack of any substance like dry land) and completely covered in water. The three stated conditions of earth's beginning formlessness, being void, and covered in water is how the Bible says earth was before dry land was made to appear. According to scientists the earth has never been completely covered in water without any dry land as the Bible says it was.

    The main problem with the biblical account of creation is the order of events. First; water covers the entire planet before there is dry land, second; day and night are created before the sun, and thirdly plants are created before the sun. Everyone knows that the order of Genesis is wrong and that is why Bible believers are constantly manipulating and twisting Scripture to say something different than it actually says.
    Not everyone thinks as you do Rose. There are more than you think who accept the order in Genesis is correct. I am not going to attempt to reconcile the Creation with Evolution, even though I can accept a logical order in the complexity of creation leading up to man and the most complex of organs; the human brain.
    If we use our brains, and look at the words closely, Genesis is not saying that water flooded the earth. The words indicate that areas of water existed everywhere and that God gathered them together to form the seas and so where water was, before it was "gathered together", dry land was left behind. It does not say, there was no dry land at all before God gathered the waters together. The Creation story is not meant to be a lesson in science and we are not told in great detail what took place. It is sufficient to present a simple story and yet in that simplicity, the few facts we are given show a logical progression and a correct order to the establishment of creating the environment into which man would be created.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Just because science does not have all the answers to how the universe began, or how matter came into existence does not mean the biblegod did it. Science can easily say that the Bibles description of creation is wrong without knowing exactly how the universe began, and even though the Bible and its god are proved wrong and therefore false, some other form of higher intelligence could exist. It's not the job of science to prove god's existence, rather it is the job of those who believe in god to deliver proof of his existence. Believers are constantly demanding evidence and proof from science for every claim they make (and they well should), but no such proof or evidence is forthcoming for their claims of "God did it", so why the double standard? It should be a two way street, proof and evidence all the way around.
    We have problems understanding the beginning, whether that be; where did God come from? or where did matter come from?. The Bible is dealing more about life and the relationship between God and man. God has revealed himself to people some of whom are the prophets giving his people his message. These messages were written down and preserved so that it could be seen whether the prophet was telling the truth. If the Jew's ancient scriptures and in particular the prophecies as spoken by the prophets, were just the writings of men, then the prophecies of future events would not have happened and your point would be proven. However, there is much prophecy that has been fulfilled. Even Preterists, who I disagree with about the date of the fulfilment, do not doubt the fulfilment of prophecy.
    I know the evidence I put forward as fulfilled prophecy is denied by those who just want to deny it, yet prophecy, and foretelling the future, is the only test that proves the existence of God. Who else can tell you a thing before it happens? There is not a man or woman who can accurately predict the future. I have the proof of prophecy in God's word, which science alone cannot give any proof for. The fact that you reject the proof given in the Bible in favor of science is up to you, but you cannot say the people who believe the Bible do not have proof.

    All the best
    David
    Last edited by David M; 06-17-2013 at 04:48 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there David,

    I agree there is no reason to "rule out" any possibility of any kind of God since that is beyond human knowledge, but we have every reason to rule out Yahweh, the God of the Bible. And more to the point, we have no good reason to invent any "god" as an explanation for things that science cannot yet explain. That's just the "God of the gaps" argument that has been proven wrong in every case that could be tested.

    Your demand for a "full explanation" is a double standard because the Bible is filled gross errors and inconsistencies for which you have no "full explanation." Yet you blindly hold to your unfounded doctrine that the Bible is God's trustworthy word. How do you justify such a blatant inconsistency?

    All the best,

    Richard
    Hello Richard
    What are the errors and inconsistencies that would cause me to have a double standard. I expect science to tell me the origin to the universe I can believe or else I accept the Bible explanation. Errors in God's word involving what happened to Israel or to do with with prophecy has nothing to do with science of creation which is at the heart of this discussion. There are not so many errors or problems you say there are and the few errors and problems that remain, do not affect the integrity of the Bible. There is a consistent message, when all of the Bible is taken into account, and this outweighs any of the few difficult passages to understand.
    God is trustworthy and keeps to his word. That is what the Bible reveals, but answering a soundbite from you in a few words is not going to prove this point here and s I suggest any specific points you want to discuss about this are dealt with in a new thread.
    All the best
    David

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Mystykal

    Saying "the facts of science are not considered facts at all" is a pretty broad and general statement that is false and means nothing. The Bible makes definite statements as to the order of how the earth and heavens were formed. It is these statements that conflict with the facts of science: day and night did not happen before there was a sun, plants did not grow before there was a sun, and the earth was not completely covered with water before there was any dry land. Those are just facts which the Bible is in direct contradiction with and has nothing to do with trying to change the mind of a fundamentalist Bible believer.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Hi Rose:
    I will try and be a little bit more precise. The order of creation in Genesis is NOT subject to any "laws" of science. Since GOD "did it" your logic in saying that the Bible must follow the ideas as laid out in the big bang model is FALSE. The idea that the sun is the ONLY light source for plants to grow and therefore the Bible IS WRONG - is well just wrong. You see your logic is not based on the same perspective which the Bible contends is the "God model". So your ideas are in opposition to the "Word of GOD". Period. The Bible is not supposed to follow the big bang model. The two perspectives are just that - two different perspectives.

    Namaste,

    Mystykal

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Rose:
    I will try and be a little bit more precise. The order of creation in Genesis is NOT subject to any "laws" of science. Since GOD "did it" your logic in saying that the Bible must follow the ideas as laid out in the big bang model is FALSE. The idea that the sun is the ONLY light source for plants to grow and therefore the Bible IS WRONG - is well just wrong. You see your logic is not based on the same perspective which the Bible contends is the "God model". So your ideas are in opposition to the "Word of GOD". Period. The Bible is not supposed to follow the big bang model. The two perspectives are just that - two different perspectives.

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Hi Mystykal

    Your pattern of thought really does baffle me. Why in the world would you take an illogical order of how things were created, contained in an ancient book based on mythology, written by primitive men and think that an intelligent mind would work that way? If there truly is an intelligence that created the logically ordered world we see around us, then it stands to reason that the intelligent beings he created could figure out the order of creation because it would be logical (like it is). Why would you ever think that a haphazard, mixed up order is a valid perspective? From logical, rational thought we can conclude if there is a intelligent creator, the Bible is definitely NOT his word! The extremes people go to try and validate the creation myth in Genesis is quite astounding...here is a good article addressing that issue http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...nding-genesis/

    If you are at all familiar with ancient near east myths, you will know that the Genesis account of creation is probably based on the myth of the goddess of the ocean Tiamat contained in the Enuma Elish, which is the Babylonian story of creation. In Enuma Elish, Tiamat (the Hebrew word for deep tehowm is probably derived from Tiamat) is killed by the storm god Marduk and her body is divided to make the heavens and the oceans. Many scholars believe that the biblical story of creation was based on the much older myth of creation contained in the Enuma Elish, which would explain the crazy mixed up order that Genesis contains.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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