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  1. #21
    sylvius,

    re: "As I understand you are not a 'sixth day crucifixion proponent'. Is that right?"


    I think that the 5th day is the more likely day for the crucifixion.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstrats View Post


    I think that the 5th day is the more likely day for the crucifixion.
    And what is your interest in that?

    Why it should have been on the 5th day and not on the sixth?

  3. #23
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    Mark 15:42-42 has:

    When it was already evening, since it was the day of preparation, the day before the sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a distinguished member of the council, who was himself awaiting the kingdom of God, came and courageously went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.


    Mark 16:1 has:

    When the sabbath was over,a Mary Magdalene, Mary, the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go and anoint him.

    Which leaves little doubt about the sixth day to be crucifiction day.

    And more:
    The synoptici (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) have this day to be the first day of Pesach.

    So with the sepulchure of Jesus the counting of the omer began, counting 49 days till the 50th day, i.e. Pentecost= Revelation at Sinai = the sixth day of the month Sivan.

    Playing with "the sixth day" of Genesis 1:31.

    Like also Rashi did:
    the sixth day: Scripture added a “hey” on the sixth [day], at the completion of the Creation, to tell us that He stipulated with them, [“you were created] on the condition that Israel accept the Five Books of the Torah.” [The numerical value of the “hey” is five.] (Tanchuma Bereishith 1). Another explanation for “the sixth day” : They [the works of creation] were all suspended until the “sixth day,” referring to the sixth day of Sivan, which was prepared for the giving of the Torah (Shab. 88a). [The“hey” is the definite article, alluding to the well-known sixth day, the sixth day of Sivan, when the Torah was given (ad loc.).]
    Only John has this different.
    He has Jesus crucified on the day before Pesach,
    yet this day being also the sixth day (friday).

    You can recognize "seven weeks" in the Gospel of John, which makes the sunday on which he appeared to first Maria Magdalena the 50th day.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
    Ps 27:1,

    Thanks for the comments, but for the purpose of this topic I'm really only interested in the information asked for in the OP. I probably should have titled the topic "x" days and "x" nights so as not to confuse anyone into thinking it is asking for a discussion about the meaning of Matthew 12:40. As you noted, there are other threads that do that.
    Hello rstrats or is it start sr?

    I'm a little puzzled by your comment. I simply cut to the chase. Why else would you say, " Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion proponents, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day..." (bold type is mine)? And confirmed by your statement, "I think that the 5th day is the more likely day for the crucifixion. "

    I was simply reading between the lines.

    I'm just trying to help you out and save you a lot of time. There are websites where people have spent lots of time trying to "prove" that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday or Thursday. I have a suspicion that the Holy Spirit inspired Matt 12:40 to trap a lot of people who thought they were being clever.

    Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong. (KJV)
    He traps the wise in their own cleverness so their cunning schemes are thwarted. (NLT)

    As sylvius said, "Mar 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, "

    There is absolutely no biblical support for a 4th or 5th day crucifixion. Zilch, nada. And the confusion starts with the misunderstanding of Matt 12:40. That is why my post was relevant.

    If you have Jesus being crucified on Wednesday or Thursday, you must have it on the Passover the 14th so that the next day will be a non 7th day sabbath. This directly contradicts Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

    And, Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
    Luk 22:13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
    Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

    Jesus was crucified on the feast day, the 15th. This matches Lev 4 and Num 28. Therefore, the next day had to be the 7th day sabbath.

    Once you have a proper understanding of Matt 12:40, all the confusion dissipates and there is no need to asks questions about idioms concerning 3D/3N.

    Sorry to rain on your parade. I did not originate this interpretation ( first read about it from Sir Robert Anderson, "The Coming Prince" ), but it is the only one that I am aware of that harmonizes all of the scriptures.

    He also explains the confusion over the "Passover" in John 18:28. It was not the Passover (14th) evening meal because they would have been ceremonial clean by even according to Leviticus. Remember, John calls the whole feast the Passover. So does the OT. Eze 45:21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

    Joh 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
    Joh 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.

    The whole feast (7 days) was called Passover.

    So, to sum it up. Forget about the idiom question. There is no biblical harmony in a Wednesday or Thursday crucifixion. They both lead to confusion and contradictions. Understand Matt 12:40 (like Jesus said, Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? ) and it all falls into place.

    Happy 7th day Sabbath,

    Steve
    May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. Ps 19:14 (NIV)

  5. #25
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    While I still wait for confirmation of the precise calendar date and day for the 1st day of the year in which Jesus was crucified, I have another question.

    We know that Jesus was taken prisoner at night and various meetings took place the night he was captured, but did normal trading continue after dark or was the custom to shut up shop till daylight appeared?

    Does anyone know for sure the custom for trading in those days? Jerusalem did not have street lighting for people to venture far without taking their lamps with them. Would buying and selling have continued after dark?

    David

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    While I still wait for confirmation of the precise calendar date and day for the 1st day of the year in which Jesus was crucified, I have another question.

    We know that Jesus was taken prisoner at night and various meetings took place the night he was captured, but did normal trading continue after dark or was the custom to shut up shop till daylight appeared?

    Does anyone know for sure the custom for trading in those days? Jerusalem did not have street lighting for people to venture far without taking their lamps with them. Would buying and selling have continued after dark?

    David
    Science » Technologies and discoveries
    http://english.pravda.ru/science/tec...819-christ-0/#

    Date of Christ's Death Pinpointed
    16.05.2003
    Romanian astronomers determined the time of Jesus Christ's death, pinpointed it to the exact minute and also named the time of his miraculous resurrection
    Two astronomers from Romania made a sensational revelation: they determined the time of Jesus Christ's death, pinpointed it to the exact minute and also named the time of his miraculous resurrection.

    Scientists Liviu Mircea and Tiberiu Oproiu set themselves an objective to make a research dedicated to the last hour of the God's Son life in a human body.

    As the scientists from Romania's Astronomic Observatory Institute say, Jesus Christ died at 3 p.m. on the Good Friday, April 3, 33AD and rose again at 4 a.m. on April 5.

    To obtain the information the astronomers turned to the primary source, the Bible, and then started some astrology computer programs. However, the New Testament says that Jesus Christ died on the day after the first night with a full moon following the vernal equinox day. The astronomers employed information about revolution of the planets within 26-35AD and found out that it was only two times within the period that the fool moon followed the vernal equinox immediately. The first date was Friday, April 7, 30AD and the second time this combination repeated was April 3, 33AD. However, the Bible also mentions a solar eclipse that occurred during crucifixion of Jesus Christ. According to astronomy records, a partial solar eclipse was registered only in 33AD. So, this is how the scientists determined the exact dates of Christ's death and resurrection.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Science » Technologies and discoveries
    http://english.pravda.ru/science/tec...819-christ-0/#

    Date of Christ's Death Pinpointed
    16.05.2003
    Romanian astronomers determined the time of Jesus Christ's death, pinpointed it to the exact minute and also named the time of his miraculous resurrection
    Two astronomers from Romania made a sensational revelation: they determined the time of Jesus Christ's death, pinpointed it to the exact minute and also named the time of his miraculous resurrection.

    Scientists Liviu Mircea and Tiberiu Oproiu set themselves an objective to make a research dedicated to the last hour of the God's Son life in a human body.

    As the scientists from Romania's Astronomic Observatory Institute say, Jesus Christ died at 3 p.m. on the Good Friday, April 3, 33AD and rose again at 4 a.m. on April 5.

    To obtain the information the astronomers turned to the primary source, the Bible, and then started some astrology computer programs. However, the New Testament says that Jesus Christ died on the day after the first night with a full moon following the vernal equinox day. The astronomers employed information about revolution of the planets within 26-35AD and found out that it was only two times within the period that the fool moon followed the vernal equinox immediately. The first date was Friday, April 7, 30AD and the second time this combination repeated was April 3, 33AD. However, the Bible also mentions a solar eclipse that occurred during crucifixion of Jesus Christ. According to astronomy records, a partial solar eclipse was registered only in 33AD. So, this is how the scientists determined the exact dates of Christ's death and resurrection.
    Thanks for this, but it does not answer the question as expected. What has the vernal equinox have to do with this this?

    It should be possible with today's technology and knowing the precise orbit of the moon to backdate from now the precise number of days. The problem is then to determine the first of the month of the new year in which Jesus died. This leaves us with a question? Do we know for sure that the Sabbath that is observed now is the exact same day as the Sabbath in the week Jesus died. Has there ever been slipage whereby over the centuries and millenia has the Sabbath slipped to another day. The sequence is 6 days followed by the weekly Sabbath. If there has been no slippage, then the Sabbath now should be exactly a multiple of 7 from the Sabbath in the week Jesus died. If somehow the Sabbath that is remembered now has slipped to say Thursday this would mean that no one is observing the Sabbath as it should have been as calculated according to God's time. Can we be certain that the Sabbath day in the time of Jesus was exactly the same day on which the Sabbath was observed in the time of Moses. Did events like the exile mean the people lose contact with observing the new moon in Jerusalem. Likewise the dispersion after AD70 has this caused the Jews to lose track of maintaining the Sabbath on the exact day

    We have to establish whether in the year Jesus died whether the Sabbath was on the first of the month which would have made the 15th of that month a Sabbath or from precise calculations can it be proven the Sabbath was say three days earlier which would have made it day 3 or day 4 in the week.

    Although we can in theory we can backtrack the exact number of days to determine the new moon in Israel, are there any other factors such as whether the sliver of the new moon could be seen on the day it occurs and whether that could lead to errors between the astronomical calculations with the human determination of the beginning of a new month. Unless we can correctly determine when the new moons occurred and the exact day the new moon was observed after the ripening of the barley harvest which determines the start of the new year, we might not be able to say with precise accuracy the exact timings based on Astronomical calculations.


    David

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
    Ps 27:1,

    Thanks for the comments, but for the purpose of this topic I'm really only interested in the information asked for in the OP. I probably should have titled the topic "x" days and "x" nights so as not to confuse anyone into thinking it is asking for a discussion about the meaning of Matthew 12:40. As you noted, there are other threads that do that.
    Hello rstrats,

    There was something wrong with a link in my first post, so I fixed it. Here is a link to the previous chapter in the same book that may answer your question about the 3d/3n idiom. Kind of ironic that it was buried in my first post. I had forgotten about that part. http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/...ifixion/1.html

    Here is the pertinent part:


    III. INCLUSIVE RECKONING
    The literal interpretation of the phrase "three days and three nights" as representing an exact period of 72 hours ignores the abundant Biblical and Rabbinical evidence on the idiomatic use of the phrase "a day and a night," to refer not to an exact number of hours or of minutes, but simply to a calendrical day, whether complete or incomplete. Matthew, for example, writes that Jesus "fasted forty days and forty nights" in the wilderness (Matt 4:2). The same period is given in Mark 1:13 and Luke 4:2 as "forty days," which does not necessarily require forty complete 24 hour days.5

    It is important to note that in Biblical times a fraction of a day or of a night was reckoned inclusively as representing the whole day or night. This method of reckoning is known as "inclusive reckoning." A few examples from the Bible and from Rabbinic literature will suffice to demonstrate its usage.

    An Abandoned Egyptian. 1 Samuel 30:12 speaks of an abandoned Egyptian servant who "had not eaten bread or drunk water for three days and three nights." The idiomatic usage of this expression is shown by the following verse, where the servant states that his master had left him behind "three days ago" (v. 13). If the "three days and three nights" were meant to be taken literally, then the servant should have said that he had been left behind four days before.

    Esther’s Visit to the King. Another explicit example of inclusive day reckoning is found in the story of Esther’s visit to the king. When Queen Esther was informed by Mordecai about the plan to exterminate the Jews, she sent this message to him: "Go, gather all the Jews to be found in Susa, and hold a fast on my behalf, and neither eat nor drink for three days, night or day. I and my maids will also fast as you do. Then I will go to the King" (Esther 4:16).

    If Esther intended the three days and three nights to be taken literally as a 72-hour period of fasting, then she should have presented herself before the King on the fourth day. However, we are told a few verses later that Esther went before the king "on the third day" (Esther 5:1). Examples such as these clearly show that the expression "three days and three nights" is used in the Scriptures idiomatically to indicate not three complete 24-hour days, but three calendric days of which the first and the third could have consisted of only a fraction of a day.6

    Rabbinical Literature. Explicit examples for inclusive day reckoning are also found in Rabbinic literature. Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, who lived about A.D. 100, stated: "A day and a night are an Onah [‘a portion of time’] and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it."7 There are other instances in Rabbinic literature where the "three days and three nights" of Jonah 1:17 are combined with Old Testament passages which mention events that took place "on the third day."8 "It is in this light," writes Gerhard Dilling in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, "that we are to understand Matthew 12:40."9

    Jewish Practice. The practice of inclusive day reckoning, according to The Jewish Encyclopedia, a standard Jewish reference work, is still in vogue among the Jews today. "In Jewish communal life part of a day is at times reckoned as one day; e.g., the day of the funeral, even when the latter takes place late in the afternoon, is counted as the first of the seven days of mourning; a short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though on the first day only a few minutes remained after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day."10

    The examples cited above clearly indicate that in Biblical times the expression "a day and a night" simply meant a day, whether complete or incomplete. Thus, in the light of the prevailing usage, the expression "three days and three nights" of Matthew 12:40 does not require that Jesus be entombed for 72 hours, but for a full day and two partial days.

    End quote

    Note: I still don't have an issue with the idiom because I believe Jesus meant more than the tomb when he said "heart of the earth". This is supported by the fact that the same day he gave several different parables with planting seeds in the earth and explaining to his disciples what "seed" meant (word of God, a name for himself Luke 8:11, John 1:1, Rev 19:13) and what "earth" meant (man's heart see Matt 13, Mark 4, Luke 8:15 is very clear)

    It is easy to see why the carnal person interprets "heart of earth" as grave. It's natural. That is why most of us (myself included) did so. But if we want to learn what Jesus really meant, we must let scripture interpret scripture and be careful of assumptions.

    Steve
    Last edited by Ps 27:1; 05-26-2013 at 08:24 PM.
    May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. Ps 19:14 (NIV)

  9. #29
    Ps 27:1,

    re: "There was something wrong with a link in my first post, so I fixed it. Here is a link to the previous chapter in the same book that may answer your question about the 3d/3n idiom."

    I'm afraid I don't see where Bacchiocchi shows the use of a phrase which states a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights where it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights.

  10. #30
    sylvius,

    re: "And what is your interest in that?"

    My interest was to answer your question to me in your post #20.

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