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Thread: Genetic Entropy

  1. #1
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    Genetic Entropy - the Extinction of the Human Race

    In my book "Enoch an essay on Angels" I document quite a bit of evidence concerning the exponential fall in longevity that occurred in the past. I was quite stunned as to how the ancient king lists of the Egyptians, Greeks, Babylonians, Mesopotamians, Chinese, confirmed this drop in longevity.

    It seemed to me that rather than Evolution, we have Devolution - as a planet and as a race we are dying. Entropy, the tendency from order to disorder, "Times Arrow" as Eddington put it, means that everything is wearing out.

    Hebrews 1 v 10-12 "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe, like a garment they will be changed.But you remain the same, and your years will never end."

    In terms of genetics, the increase in mutations with each passing generation means that the information in the genetic code is degrading, and at quite a fast rate - estimated by population geneticists as at about 100 point mutations per generation. This is about 100 times faster than was though 20 years ago. We are degenerating at an alarming rate with each generation.

    In my book - Essay on Angels - I plotted a graph of the decline in longevity after the Flood - it is an EXPONENTIAL DECAY CURVE !! We are in decline. There was higher order and more complexity in the past. An original paradise. As time passes, things go down hill.

    Here are some videos that talk about this -

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_edD5HOx6Q0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8KbM-xkfVk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYEkqwOXE5U

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dl6oOHtWBo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC_NyFZG7pM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_edD5HOx6Q0

    Scientists estimate that genetic collapse will take place within 200 generations from now. If each generation is approximately 20 years, then extinction is in 200 x 20 years = 4000 years.


    Though this seems quite negative, it is a challenge. We know that the information stored in our DNA is information that can be stored anywhere, even in a CD. If we keep a copy of our current DNA, then even though approximately 100 new mutations are passed on to our children with each generation, we could correct for this by using the stored template to correct the info errors in the stem cell. This would halt the devolution of the human race.

    If we could obtain samples of ancient DNA and reconstruct the genome of pre-diluvian man, then we could use this to create an improved genome for ourselves.

    So there is a good possibility that we can halt the devolution. The nearest analogy is "rebooting from disc". If we kept the original DNA info sequence preserved, then we could effectively re-install error free code each generation so as to eliminate the 100 or so mutations that wold otherwise accumulate.

    Though I believe that this would work, there is a bigger problem. Genetic entropy does not just affect human beings - it is all pervasive - taking place in all species and all plants. Our entire biosphere is dying. So even if humans were able to halt devolution, they would end up living on a dead planet. We would need to fix the animals and plants too. This seems too much of a big task, given all the animals, plants insects, marine creatures, bacteria - all of which would need to be fixed to maintain a working biosphere.

    So what can we do now?

    1. Well, the original creation was a paradise, and was created by God, so our primary effort should be in prayer and meditation.
    2. It would be interesting to see what we can do in obtaining the best possible samples of ancient DNA, and keeping a preserved record of the DNA sequence in these - a kind of digital Noah's Ark. At some later date we will have the technology to use these ancient sequences to recreate pre-diluvian DNA and use this DNA as a template to remove mutation errors from our own DNA. The best samples of DNA are preserved in permafrost and in ice in the northern latitudes. The warming of our climate is exposing more of these frozen pre-diluvian creatures. It only remains for us to sequence them, and keep a digital record of their DNA sequences for the future.

    This is the best safe-guard against devolution. Admitedly we will have to do the same for each of the plant, insect, mammal, fish and amphibian groups, but we have about 200 generations - 4000 years before genetic collapse, so we have time to perfect the technology. What is most important for now, is that we simply gather samples of ancient DNA and sequence them, and keep a digital record - a digital Noah's Ark.

    Preserving a digital record is as good as preserving the original creature, since all future generations will have to do is to use the template to correct errors in the stem cells passed on from parents.

    On the negative side, our time may be shorter. As mutations accumulate, both our physical and mental capacities will steadily decrease. Maybe we will become helpless. That's why it is important to do something positive now and halt the process as quickly as possible.
    Last edited by Craig.Paardekooper; 05-20-2013 at 09:30 AM.

  2. #2
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    Hello Craig

    I am adding some of thoughts that came to mind as I read your post. BTW I have not had time to watch the videos. The first one in the list is 1 hour 40 minutes long so I will need some free time before I can do that and I only have time at the moment to read a few posts and especially the posts I have to reply to Richard in the threads we have going.


    My thoughts are these.

    1. We do not know the extent of the consequences of man's genetic modification of foods and the crops that will self-seed and introduce modified seed into the natural order of things. All the genetic modifications man is making could be accelerating the overall decline you are speaking of.

    2. I think we only have one option, to trust in God who has promised to "make all things new" and as you say, "we should pray..." Whatever we pray for, already God is working to His plan and has the power to create and resurrect and so we have to rely on God's power to do what is impossible for man. The second of your options which relies on man's solution (the digital Ark) is not an option as I see things.

    3. How can you be sure you have the best genetic template? Are we all not unique by our DNA? What makes us unique? How do you preserve that uniqueness and not produce clones like Dolly the sheep, which was not successful in the long term as I recall?

    4. Our understanding of the Genome and DNA has given us a reason to understand the ageing process. It was not understood at one time why we could not live for ever especially as the body is quite good at repairing itself (except for replacing missing amputated limbs etc.). Maybe man thinks now he knows the reason why we age and die because of the structure found in the DNA molecule and that he might be able change this.

    5. Living for ever as we understand things by the observable universe is impossible. The whole universe is going from order to chaos and entropy is increasing. Only God is not governed by this law and for the earth to continue for ever and for those saved to live for ever (never to die) means that God either has to change the law of entropy or will continue to renew and sustain and restore that which is dying, decaying or diminishing.

    All the best

    David

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    Thankyou David,

    Having understood that the all life, including ourselves are undergoing rapid degradation, I realsie the impossibility of using genetic engineering to maintain our selves. It is even more impossible for us to maintain all the species of the biosphere - so even if we could maintain ourselves, there would be no place to live.

    What shocked me was the rapidity of the decline. Evolutionists assume the mutation rate is less than 1. However it turns out to be much greater. Our extinction is inevitable and is estimated at only 200 generations from now = about 4000 years from now, on the outside.

    This realisation has led me to reassess my priorities. The only thing that persists is God - all else perishes. So, living the religious life is ALL THERE IS.

    Our natural extinction is so near in time, that it might as well be a day of judgement - only a few thousand years hence.

    So now, for me, the development and committment to a truely spiritual life has become paramount; all else is secondary.

    Regards

    Craig
    Last edited by Craig.Paardekooper; 05-20-2013 at 09:32 AM.

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    Hello Craig

    This makes no difference to Evolutionists who have to accept that Evolution is blind and can self-destruct at any time. It appears the that time has already started and Evolutionists might have to concede that Evolution has already peaked. The argument from Evolutionists is; given enough time, anything is possible, but that does not help anyone in the present.

    Your post adds extra meaning to the words of Jesus (Matt. 24:22 which says; except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: the assurance follows; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. This is said describing events which are still future and to which we can see things on all fronts happening now, and pointing to a time of trouble like as Jesus said (v21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    We are already in the time of tribulation and what is being felt around the world with everything that is happening is likely to be the start of what is to come.

    The judgement of God to come on those who are destroying the earth has already been declared (Rev 11:18) and thy wrath is come...and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    If we place our faith in God, we have nothing to fear, but for those who do not and wonder what the world is coming to then they can only live in fear of that which is to come which for some will be at the hands of God when his judgements come on all nations; (Hebrews 10:31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


    Nevertheless, with the true words of Jesus, we can have peace; (John 14:27) Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you.

    All the best

    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post

    In my book - Essay on Angels - I plotted a graph of the decline in longevity after the Flood - it is an EXPONENTIAL DECAY CURVE !! We are in decline. There was higher order and more complexity in the past. An original paradise. As time passes, things go down hill.
    That information leads to a false conclusion. There is no evidence for a flood. ZERO. There is also no evidence for anyone living nine hundred some years. Those are simply stories in the Bible. The Bible is simply wrong because evidence proves this.

    The life expectancy of man has increased, not decreased. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_ex...tion_over_time
    Here are some videos that talk about this -

    I looked at the first link and noticed John C. Stanford. He lost all credibility with this statement: An advocate of intelligent design, in 2005 Sanford testified in the Kansas evolution hearings on behalf of intelligent design, during which he denied the principle of common descent and "humbly offered... that we were created by a special creation, by God." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Sanford

    Common descent is a FACT! Evidence of common descent of living things has been discovered by scientists working in a variety of fields over many years. This evidence has demonstrated and verified the occurrence of evolution and provided a wealth of information on the natural processes by which the variety and diversity of life on Earth developed. This evidence supports the modern evolutionary synthesis, the current scientific theory that explains how and why life changes over time. Evolutionary biologists document evidence of common descent: making testable predictions, testing hypotheses, and developing theories that illustrate and describe its causes.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent

    It is a fact! Intelligent design has no evidence to support it.

    What scientist predict our extinction in 200 years? Please don't tell me Sanford. Anyone who rejects scientific facts is not worth listening to.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix


  6. #6
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    That information leads to a false conclusion. There is no evidence for a flood. ZERO. There is also no evidence for anyone living nine hundred some years. Those are simply stories in the Bible. The Bible is simply wrong because evidence proves this.
    OK, well the main evidence for a flood are -

    1. Worldwide traditions
    2. The exponential decrease in longevity after the flood
    3. Records of decrease in longevity preserved in the kinglists of the Egyptians, Chinese, Mesopotamians, Greeks, Indians
    4. Increased size of creatures in the past because they lived longer so they grew to larger size.

    All this EXISTS as evidence, so your statement that there is no evidence is BLATANTLY wrong, and is based on wilful ignorance.


    The life expectancy of man has increased, not decreased.
    The historical evidence listed above shows that our base longevity fell massively after the Flood. Recent advances in medicine have led to a slight come back, but nothing like our longevity in ancient times.

    as long as the rate of mutation exceeds 1 mutation per person per generation, then evolution is impossible.

    We are not discussing Intelligent Design here - we are discussing mutation rates, and a rate of over 1 renders evolution impossible. If you want to support evolution, then you need to prove that the mutation rate is much lower. Good luck.
    Last edited by Craig.Paardekooper; 05-20-2013 at 09:43 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    In my book "Enoch an essay on Angels" I document quite a bit of evidence concerning the exponential fall in longevity that occurred in the past. I was quite stunned as to how the ancient king lists of the Egyptians, Greeks, Babylonians, Mesopotamians, Chinese, confirmed this drop in longevity.

    It seemed to me that rather than Evolution, we have Devolution - as a planet and as a race we are dying. Entropy, the tendency from order to disorder, "Times Arrow" as Eddington put it, means that everything is wearing out.

    Hebrews 1 v 10-12 "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe, like a garment they will be changed.But you remain the same, and your years will never end."

    In terms of genetics, the increase in mutations with each passing generation means that the information in the genetic code is degrading, and at quite a fast rate - estimated by population geneticists as at about 100 point mutations per generation. This is about 100 times faster than was though 20 years ago. We are degenerating at an alarming rate with each generation.

    In my book - Essay on Angels - I plotted a graph of the decline in longevity after the Flood - it is an EXPONENTIAL DECAY CURVE !! We are in decline. There was higher order and more complexity in the past. An original paradise. As time passes, things go down hill.

    Here are some videos that talk about this -

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_edD5HOx6Q0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8KbM-xkfVk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYEkqwOXE5U

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dl6oOHtWBo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC_NyFZG7pM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_edD5HOx6Q0

    Scientists estimate that genetic collapse will take place within 200 generations from now. If each generation is approximately 20 years, then extinction is in 200 x 20 years = 4000 years.
    Hey there Craig,

    I'm glad you posted John Sanford's work because it is misleading many people. His thesis that natural selection is insufficient to maintain the integrity of the genome is demonstrably false. It is trivial to prove that it is natural selection that keeps the genome working despite all the mutations. For example, animals with eyes depend upon natural selection to keep their eyes working. If they are put in environments where there is no selection for eyes (such as a dark cave) then the random mutations accumulate and the eyes are eventually lost. If they are out in the light then natural selection maintains their eyes. This is PROOF that natural selection is what keeps our bodies working despite the entropy. John Sanford's argument is simply absurd.

    There is much more to say but I'm going to do more research first. From what I've seen of his videos, he appears to be radically ignorant of the most basic science.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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    Hi Richard,

    I look forward to a response based on mutation rates. The simple fact is that as long as the mutation rate exceeds 1 mutation per person per generation, then evolution is completely impossible.

    I hope you can prove that the mutation rate is alot lower....... I really do........ Because a high mutation rate doesn't just affect our philosophy - it spells our extinction....in the near future. So good luck.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    OK, well the main evidence for a flood are -

    1. Worldwide traditions
    2. The exponential decrease in longevity after the flood
    3. Records of decrease in longevity preserved in the kinglists of the Egyptians, Chinese, Mesopotamians, Greeks, Indians

    All this EXISTS as evidence, so your statement that there is no evidence is blatantly wrong.
    That is NOT evidence. There is no physical evidence of any kind that supports a global flood. That is a FACT! We know for a FACT that people were not living to the years that the Bible claims. Clink the link that I provided and you will see that it's false.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    as long as the rate of mutation exceeds 1 mutation per person per generation, then evolution is impossible.

    We are not discussing Intelligent Design here - we are discussing mutation rates, and a rate of over 1 renders evolution impossible. If you want to support evolution, then you need to prove that the mutation rate is much lower. Good luck.
    Craig evolution is a FACT! I don't need to prove it. It already has been proven. You are simply living in fantasy land to make such statements. No offense, but there is no debate about evolution. It was proven along time ago. The facts are there for you to discover if you will look for it.

    I know we're not discussing intelligent design. But in the link you provided John C. Standford proposed that absurdity over verifiable facts of a common ancestor. Anyone who ignores verifiable facts in favor of something with no evidence is suspect.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    OK, well the main evidence for a flood are -

    1. Worldwide traditions
    2. The exponential decrease in longevity after the flood
    3. Records of decrease in longevity preserved in the kinglists of the Egyptians, Chinese, Mesopotamians, Greeks, Indians

    All this EXISTS as evidence, so your statement that there is no evidence is blatantly wrong.
    Those are not anywhere near sufficient to prove something that contradicts demonstrable facts.

    1) There is absolutely no evidence for a massive global extinction of all animal life in the recent history. It would be impossible to miss if it did happen because there would be a bottleneck in the DNA.

    2) It is absurd in the extreme to think that a single pair of animals could be the parents of all subsequent generations because there is not enough genetic diversity. And there is NO WAY IN THE WORLD to explain the vast genetic diversity of all life (e.g. 40,000 species of spiders alone) if everything but a pair was wiped out in recent history.

    3) There is no way that a single pair of kangaroos could have hopped all the way back to Australia. Multiply this absurdity by a million to represent all the species that would have had to return to their point of origin (which also is supported by the fossil record).

    4) The carnivores would have starved immediately after the flood or every time they ate a whole species would have gone extinct.

    5) There is no way to get all the animals on the ark (not big enough, not enough room for food, etc).

    6) And so on and on ... to believe in a literal global flood is as absurd as anything could be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    as long as the rate of mutation exceeds 1 mutation per person per generation, then evolution is impossible.

    We are not discussing Intelligent Design here - we are discussing mutation rates, and a rate of over 1 renders evolution impossible. If you want to support evolution, then you need to prove that the mutation rate is much lower. Good luck.
    This comment indicates a fundamental failure to understand the basic concept of evolution. Mutations are simply explorations of genetic evolutionary phase space - the space of every possible genetic pattern. Patterns have variable survivability. Evolution is as inevitable as water flowing in a canyon. The water explores every nook and cranny. Watch these two videos and you should be able to understand (the explanation of evolutionary phase space begins at about 5 minutes in):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwCK1WTamm4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idkio89QYo0
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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