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Thread: Genetic Entropy

  1. #391
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    X Chromosome

    I repeated the procedure for the X Chromosome.

    Here are the results for 20 samples each of length 100,000 bases.

    1. 81%
    2. 46%
    3. 88%
    4. 78%
    5. 98%
    6. 94%
    7. 97%
    8. 94%
    9. 78%
    10. 99%
    11. 96%
    12. 90%
    13. 97%
    14. 88%
    15. 98%
    16. 95%
    17. 82%
    18. 91%
    19. 86%
    20. 97%

    The average is 88.65 % across all the areas sampled

  2. #392
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    DNA WALK comparing chimp and human DNA

    I created some simple software that draws a line graph based on the DNA sequence. DNA has 4 letters A C T and G. The software plots a line by

    adding one pixel to the right each time an A occurs,
    adding one pixel to the left each time a T occurs
    adding one pixel up each time a G occurs
    adding one pixel down each time a C occurs

    The result is a line graph representing the DNA sequence.

    This enables us to make a visual comparison between the sequence of DNA in chimpanzee chromosome 22 and the sequence of DNA in human chromosome 22.

    Based on the beliefs of L67, Richard and Rose, I well expected the shapes to be about 97% similar. I expected this result, and was quite willing to accept such a result if it appeared.

    However, I had a bit of a shock.

    First thing I noticed was that the chimpanzee chromosome 22 has about 32 million bases or letters, whilst the human chromosome 22 has about 50 million bases. So right from the word go, the evolutionary dogma took a jolt.

    Next I ran the software and then compared the resulting shapes of the two graphs. You can see the results for yourselves. I expected the shapes to be very similar owing to all the evolution books that say there is 97% similarity. But I found that the shapes differ greatly, indicating a very large difference between the two sequences. You can see for yourself.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxW0jKZKdJ8

  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    Based on the beliefs of L67, Richard and Rose, I well expected the shapes to be about 97% similar. I expected this result, and was quite willing to accept such a result if it appeared.

    However, I had a bit of a shock.
    Hey there Craig,

    Glad you found your way back to the forum.

    Has any scientist used your method to analyse the relation between genes? Is there any reason to think it gives any information about the historical relation between species that diverged six million years ago?

    Are you denying common descent? Are you saying no new species has ever evolved?

    The scientific consensus about the relation between the human and chimpanzee genomes has nothing to do with "the beliefs of L67, Richard, and Rose." It is based on solid science supported by evidence in peer reviewed journals. I have explained this point to you many times. I explained it to you in post #298 and again in post #336 since you had demonstrated that you didn't have a clue about evolutionary science or the meaning of the 97% figure. I was very encouraged when you said you would try to learn the science in post #337. But then I had to repeat the evidence again in post #383 so I'm starting to wonder if you have any interest in learning about the science you blindly reject.

    I think it's great to challenge science .... after your put in the effort to learn what it actually says!

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  4. #394
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    Has any scientist used your method to analyse the relation between genes?
    Yes, it is called a DNA Walk - you can google it.


    Is there any reason to think it gives any information about the historical relation between species?
    Well, you can use it to see similarities and dissimilarities between the sequences, and since evolutionists argue from similarity to common descent, therefore it has a lot to say about the historical relation between species.

    Are you denying common descent? Are you saying no new species has ever evolved?
    I am not going that far. I am saying that for this particlar chromosome there is a large divergence of sequence represented by a drastically different shape. For other chromosomes, such as Chromosome 1, there is a remarkable coincidence of shape.

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    Yes, it is called a DNA Walk - you can google it.
    Cool! I didn't know that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    Well, you can use it to see similarities and dissimilarities between the sequences, and since evolutionists argue from similarity to common descent, therefore it has a lot to say about the historical relation between species.
    The second chromosome is different than the others because it resulted in a fusion of two chromosomes long after we split from our common ancestor with the chimpanzees about 6 million years ago. Here's what the wiki says:

    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    All members of Hominidae except humans, Neanderthals, and Denisovans have 24 pairs of chromosomes.[7] Humans have only 23 pairs of chromosomes. Human chromosome 2 is a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.[8][9]

    The evidence for this includes:

    • The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.[10][11]
    • The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere in the q21.3?q22.1 region.[12]
    • The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the q13 band, far from either end of the chromosome.[13]

    According to researcher J. W. IJdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2." [13]
    If this is correct, would it not explain the big difference in the shape? I mean, if the human 2nd chromosome is the fusion of two ancestoral chromosomes + 6 million years of evolutionary variation, why would we expect them to look the same at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    I am not going that far. I am saying that for this particlar chromosome there is a large divergence of sequence represented by a drastically different shape. For other chromosomes, such as Chromosome 1, there is a remarkable coincidence of shape.
    Isn't that exactly what we would expect, given the history of the 2nd chromosome in humans?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  6. #396
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    Thankyou for your response,

    I have completed a DNA walk now for 17 of the human chromosomes and 17 of the chimp chromosomes. It takes about 40 minutes to plot the largest chromosomes, eg chromosome 1, 2, 3, 4, and 8 minutes to plot a small chromosome, eg 20, 21, 22

    However in each of the graphs I can clearly see dozens of areas where the squiggly contour of the line in chimps exactly matches the contour in humans. There are areas of difference as well. The similarities and differences are equally impressive. Zooming in reveals the finer details.

    This method greatly facilitates the identification of areas of homology.

    I shall keep you updated. Once I have finished charting all 22 chromosomes, I will zoom in and catalog the regions of similarity, and also those regions that differentiate us from chimps.

    Craig
    Last edited by Craig.Paardekooper; 04-07-2017 at 05:23 PM.

  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    Thankyou for your response,

    I have completed a DNA walk now for 17 of the human chromosomes and 17 of the chimp chromosomes. It takes about 40 minutes to plot the largest chromosomes, eg chromosome 1, 2, 3, 4, and 8 minutes to plot a small chromosome, eg 20, 21, 22

    However in each of the graphs I can clearly see dozens of areas where the squiggly contour of the line in chimps exactly matches the contour in humans. There are areas of difference as well. The similarities and differences are equally impressive. Zooming in reveals the finer details.

    This method greatly facilitates the identification of areas of homology.

    I shall keep you updated. Once I have finished charting all 22 chromosomes, I will zoom in and catalog the regions of similarity, and also those regions that differentiate us from chimps.

    Craig
    That's really interesting Craig. Please post any pics you have.

    I googled a bit and saw work similar to yours in published journals. And your video came up in the fourth position on the first page! Nice work!

    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...man+chimpanzee
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  8. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    .

    This enables us to make a visual comparison between the sequence of DNA in chimpanzee chromosome 22 and the sequence of DNA in human chromosome 22.

    Based on the beliefs of L67, Richard and Rose, I well expected the shapes to be about 97% similar. I expected this result, and was quite willing to accept such a result if it appeared.

    However, I had a bit of a shock.

    First thing I noticed was that the chimpanzee chromosome 22 has about 32 million bases or letters, whilst the human chromosome 22 has about 50 million bases. So right from the word go, the evolutionary dogma took a jolt.

    Craig,


    I'm glad to see you posting again.

    This is a neat little project you're embarking on. However, your analysis is not accurate. The counterpart to chimp chromosome 22 is human chromosome 21. More than 98 percent of the DNA on chimp chromosome 22 is present on human chromosome 21. This is backed by peer reviewed data.

    Here, we report the high-quality DNA sequence of 33.3 megabases of chimpanzee chromosome 22. By comparing the whole sequence with the human counterpart, chromosome 21, we found that 1.44% of the chromosome consists of single-base substitutions in addition to nearly 68,000 insertions or deletions.

    This is so because chimp chromosome 2a and 2b are separate comparatively to the fused chromosome 2 of humans. Chimp chromosome 2a and 2b MUST be counted separately. When you count them separately chimp chromosome 22 lines up with human chromosome 21.

    Here is a diagram that illustrates that point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee_genome_project

    Name:  chimp.jpg_zpsinbizlxt.png
Views: 56
Size:  15.0 KB
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  9. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by L67 View Post
    Craig,


    I'm glad to see you posting again.

    This is a neat little project you're embarking on. However, your analysis is not accurate. The counterpart to chimp chromosome 22 is human chromosome 21. More than 98 percent of the DNA on chimp chromosome 22 is present on human chromosome 21. This is backed by peer reviewed data.

    Here, we report the high-quality DNA sequence of 33.3 megabases of chimpanzee chromosome 22. By comparing the whole sequence with the human counterpart, chromosome 21, we found that 1.44% of the chromosome consists of single-base substitutions in addition to nearly 68,000 insertions or deletions.

    This is so because chimp chromosome 2a and 2b are separate comparatively to the fused chromosome 2 of humans. Chimp chromosome 2a and 2b MUST be counted separately. When you count them separately chimp chromosome 22 lines up with human chromosome 21.

    Here is a diagram that illustrates that point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee_genome_project

    Name:  chimp.jpg_zpsinbizlxt.png
Views: 56
Size:  15.0 KB
    Good info. Thanks L67.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #400
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    Here is human chromosome 21

    Name:  Human21.png
Views: 54
Size:  64.8 KB

    and here is a zoom of Human chromosome 21

    Name:  Human21Zoom.png
Views: 50
Size:  82.0 KB

    and here is Chimp chromosome 22

    Name:  Chimp22Complete.png
Views: 54
Size:  79.7 KB

    You are correct L67. I found that the graph for Human 21 closely matches the graph for chimp 22. Thankyou for pointing this out.

    What is interesting is the long line which is present in the human "module" of code, but not in the chimp. The line stands out as an anomaly because it is completely absent in the chimp chromosome, and because it has a very directional digital mathematical character, distinct from the organic background. It is like a laser beam of information. I am currently analysing the line to see what it is.
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    Last edited by Craig.Paardekooper; 04-17-2017 at 07:48 AM.

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