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  1. #11
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    Jonah and Noah

    Comparing Jonah the 10 prophetic book with Noah the 10th from Adam:
    both included 40 days - day in Hebrew is Yom a Yod word, the 10th letter;
    both involved water;
    both involved "man and beast".

    Nineveh is considered to be named after or built by someone by the name of Ninus. According to the Wikipedia it's not a real person. Maybe a deity, or someone which had another name. But it does sound almost similar to Noah although it is said to be Nimrod.

    Some of the verses in the beginning of the chapters are almost similar with a small variation which seems poetic in nature.

    The Masoretic text renders Jonah 1:17 (King James and LXX) to be 2:1 which harmonizes with 4:1.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Comparing Jonah the 10 prophetic book with Noah the 10th from Adam:
    both included 40 days - day in Hebrew is Yom a Yod word, the 10th letter;
    both involved water;
    both involved "man and beast".

    Nineveh is considered to be named after or built by someone by the name of Ninus. According to the Wikipedia it's not a real person. Maybe a deity, or someone which had another name. But it does sound almost similar to Noah although it is said to be Nimrod.

    Some of the verses in the beginning of the chapters are almost similar with a small variation which seems poetic in nature.

    The Masoretic text renders Jonah 1:17 (King James and LXX) to be 2:1 which harmonizes with 4:1.
    That's pretty interesting gilgal.

    Both Noah and Jonah were given precise dates for the destruction that was to come.

    Both stories involve a boat.

    Jonah's name means "dove." This word first appears when Noah released a dove from the ark.

    I have a feeling there is probably a lot of connections between the two stories.
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  3. #13
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    I'm praying that God would open hearts and minds of readers to understand these things.

    Patterns:
    When Moses lifted up his arms Joshua won the battle and when he put down his arms they began to lose. Of course when Aaron and Hur noticed this pattern they made Moses sit down and held his arms up and they won the battle over the Amalekites.

    In the same manner when we find patterns both in our lives and scripture it gives us knowledge/experience and we are more prudent next time the pattern repeats.

    Jonah 1:1-3 and Jonah 4:1-3 have the actual words of the Word of the LORD in verse 2. Verse 3 mentions arose a characteristic of the Holy Ghost. Jesus was raised by the Holy Ghost.

    Jonah 3:4 shows 40 days and city which are associated with the number 4 such as Matthew 4 and Luke 4's 40 days. Also the 4th book Numbers mentions 40 days/years.

  4. #14
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    (KJV) Jonah 1:4 But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.

    (KJV) Jonah 4:8 And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, [It is] better for me to die than to live.

    Wind usually comes up in spoke 4. Ezekiel and John the 4th Gospel are examples.

    -------------

    Also spoke 2:
    (KJV) Jonah 4:2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, [was] not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou [art] a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

    (KJV) Exodus 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

    (KJV) Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

    (KJV) Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
    Last edited by gilgal; 06-08-2012 at 09:17 AM.

  5. #15
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    Here are some results comparing Jonah the 10th book of the 2nd cycle of the Biblewheel with Genesis 10, looking at the common Strong's Concordance numbers:
    Genesis 10

    4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish,
    Kittim, and Dodanim.

    5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in
    their lands; every one after his tongue, after
    their families, in their nations.

    9 He was a mighty hunter before the
    LORD:
    wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty
    hunter before the
    LORD.

    11
    Out of that land went forth Asshur, and
    builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and
    Calah,

    12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the
    same is a great city.

    19 And the border of the Canaanites was from
    Sidon, as thou comest to Gerar, unto Gaza; as
    thou goest, unto Sodom, and Gomorrah, and
    Admah, and Zeboim, even unto Lasha.

    20
    These are the sons of Ham, after their families,
    after their tongues, in their countries, and in their
    nations.

    21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children
    of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to
    him were children born.

    30 And their dwelling was from Mesha, as thou
    goest unto Sephar a mount of the east.
    Jonah 1

    2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry
    against it; for their wickedness is come up before
    me.

    3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from
    the presence of the
    LORD, and went down to
    Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so
    he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to
    go with them unto Tarshish from the presence
    of the
    LORD.

    4 But the
    LORD sent out a great wind into the
    sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea,
    so that the ship was like to be broken.

    8 Then said they unto him, Tell us, we pray thee,
    for whose cause this evil is upon us; What is thine
    occupation? and whence comest thou? what is thy
    country? and of what people art thou?

    10 Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and
    said unto him, Why hast thou done this? For the
    men knew that he fled from the presence of the
    LORD, because he had told them.

    16
    Then the men feared the
    LORD exceedingly,
    and offered a sacrifice unto the
    LORD, and made
    vows.

    17 Now the
    LORD had prepared a great fish to
    swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of
    the fish three days and three nights.
    Genesis 10

    8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a
    mighty one in the earth.

    9 He was a mighty hunter before the
    LORD:
    wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty
    hunter before the
    LORD.

    11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded
    Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,

    12
    And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the
    same is a great city.

    19 And the border of the Canaanites was from
    Sidon, as thou comest to Gerar, unto Gaza; as
    thou goest, unto Sodom, and Gomorrah, and
    Admah, and Zeboim, even unto Lasha.

    21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children
    of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to
    him were children born.

    25
    And unto Eber were born two sons: the name
    of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth
    divided; and his brother's name was Joktan.

    30 And their dwelling was from Mesha, as thou
    goest unto Sephar a mount of the east.
    Jonah 3

    1 And the word of the
    LORD came unto Jonah the
    second time, saying,

    2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and
    preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.

    3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh,
    according to the word of the
    LORD. Now Nineveh
    was an exceeding great city of three days'
    journey.

    4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's
    journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days,
    and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

    5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and
    proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the
    greatest of them even to the least of them.

    6
    For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and
    he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe
    from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and
    sat in ashes.

    7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and
    published through Nineveh by the decree of the
    king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor
    beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them
    not feed, nor drink water:
    Genesis 10

    4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish,
    Kittim, and Dodanim.

    9 He was a mighty hunter before the
    LORD:
    wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty
    hunter before the
    LORD.

    11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and
    builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and
    Calah,

    12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the
    same is a great city.

    14 And Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (out of whom
    came Philistim,) and Caphtorim.

    21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children
    of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to
    him were children born.

    25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name
    of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth
    divided; and his brother's name was Joktan.

    30 And their dwelling was from Mesha, as thou
    goest unto Sephar a mount of the east.
    Jonah 4

    1 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he
    was very angry.

    2 And he prayed unto the
    LORD, and said, I pray
    thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I
    was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before
    unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious
    God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great
    kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

    3 Therefore now, O LORD, take, I beseech thee,
    my life from me; for it is better for me to die than
    to live.

    4 Then said the
    LORD, Doest thou well to be
    angry?

    5 So Jonah went out of the city, and sat on the
    east side of the city, and there made him a booth,
    and sat under it in the shadow, till he might see
    what would become of the city.

    6 And the
    LORD God prepared a gourd, and made
    it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a
    shadow over his head, to deliver him from his
    grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.

    11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great
    city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand
    persons that cannot discern between their right
    hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

  6. #16
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    Hey there Greg,

    It's been a long time since we chatted. It is good to hear from you again.

    So what is that collection of highlighted words supposed to mean? It doesn't show any meaningful pattern as far as I can tell. Let's start with your first highlighted word "Tarshish." It shows no connection with Spoke 10 on the Bible Wheel or the Inner Cycles. Here is a list of all occurrences:


    • Genesis 10:4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
    • 1 Chronicles 1:7 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
    • 2 Chronicles 9:21 For the king's ships went to Tarshish with the servants of Huram: every three years once came the ships of Tarshish bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks.
    • 2 Chronicles 20:36 And he joined himself with him to make ships to go to Tarshish: and they made the ships in Eziongeber.
    • 2 Chronicles 20:37 Then Eliezer the son of Dodavah of Mareshah prophesied against Jehoshaphat, saying, Because thou hast joined thyself with Ahaziah, the LORD hath broken thy works. And the ships were broken, that they were not able to go to Tarshish.
    • Esther 1:14 And the next unto him was Carshena, Shethar, Admatha, Tarshish, Meres, Marsena, and Memucan, the seven princes of Persia and Media, which saw the king's face, and which sat the first in the kingdom
    • Psalm 48:7 Thou breakest the ships of Tarshish with an east wind.
    • Psalm 72:10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
    • Isaiah 2:16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
    • Isaiah 23:1 The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them.
    • Isaiah 23:6 Pass ye over to Tarshish; howl, ye inhabitants of the isle.
    • Isaiah 23:10 Pass through thy land as a river, O daughter of Tarshish: there is no more strength.
    • Isaiah 23:14 Howl, ye ships of Tarshish: for your strength is laid waste.
    • Isaiah 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
    • Isaiah 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
    • Jeremiah 10:9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.
    • Ezekiel 27:12 Tarshish was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of all kind of riches; with silver, iron, tin, and lead, they traded in thy fairs.
    • Ezekiel 27:25 The ships of Tarshish did sing of thee in thy market: and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas.
    • Ezekiel 38:13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
    • Jonah 1:3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.
    • Jonah 4:2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

    Now lets analyze this data. There are 21 verses containing 24 hits. Most of the hits are on Spoke 1 (1 in Genesis, 7 in Isaiah). You could amplify this "connection" by using "Inner Cycles" and noting that Tarshish also appears in Chapter 1 of 1 Chronicles, Esther, and Jonah. This way, you could make 11 connections in the data. But that's not the connection you chose. You wanted to connect it with the number 10, in which case you have a total of only four connections, namely, 1 from the Inner Cycle of Genesis 10, 2 from Jonah on Spoke 10, and 1 from the Inner Cycle of Jeremiah 10. I don't see that as impressive at all.

    My point is that you seem to be finding meaningless "connections" in random data. I would be very surprised if this were not the primary criticism your work receives. How do you answer it?

    Great chatting,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #17
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    Hi Richard! It's great to hear from you. Instead of looking for the English words to find things in common I decided to search by Strong's numbers. I'll give you Genesis 10 links of Strong's numbers in common with Jonah 1-4:

    Genesis 10 and Jonah 1:

    H1121 (son, sons or children mentioned 17 times),
    H1419 (great mentioned 9 times),
    H3068 (LORD mentioned 14 times),
    H3117 (mentioned 2 times),
    H376 (mentioned 4 times),
    H5210 (mentioned 3 times),
    H559 (mentioned 10 times),
    H5892 (city mentioned 3 times),
    H6440 (mentioned 6 times),
    H776 (mentioned 9 times),
    H8659 (mentioned 4 times),
    H935 (come, bring mentioned 6 times),

    Genesis 10 and Jonah 2:

    H2022 (mount, mountains mentioned 2 times),
    H3068 (LORD mentioned 8 times),
    H559 (mentioned 4 times),
    H776 (earth, land mentioned 9 times),
    H935 (mentioned 4 times),

    Genesis 10 and Jonah 3:

    H1419 (great mentioned 6 times),
    H2490 (mentioned 2 times),
    H259 (mentioned 2 times),
    H3068 (LORD mentioned 4 times),
    H3117 (mentioned 4 times),
    H376 (mentioned 2 times),
    H5210 (mentioned 9 times),
    H559 (mentioned 5 times),
    H5892 (city mentioned 5 times),
    H935 (come, bring mentioned 4 times),

    Genesis 10 and Jonah 4:

    H1121 (son, sons or children mentioned 17 times),
    H1419 (great mentioned 5 times),
    H3068 (LORD mentioned 8 times),
    H3318 (mentioned 3 times),
    H5210 (mentioned 3 times),
    H559 (mentioned 7 times),
    H5892 (city mentioned 6 times),
    H6924 (mentioned 2 times),
    H8147 (mentioned 2 times),
    H8659 (mentioned 2 times),

    My aim is to find a group of words or phrases in common. So Genesis 10 and Jonah have the following names off the top of my head: Tharshish and Nineveh (also called that great city mentioned in Jonah 1, 3 and 4).

    The flow of the story is interesting. Before looking into the statistics it's good to understand the story. This got my interest in rereading Jonah:
    http://www.biblestudytools.com/bible...-in-jonah.html

    Jonah goes down to Joppa (Joppa or Japho = "beautiful") then takes the boat and goes down to sleep. But God told him to go up to Nineveh. Tharshish (Tarshish or Tharshish = "yellow jasper") is the place where both Jehoshaphat and Jonah failed to reach.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Hi Richard! It's great to hear from you. Instead of looking for the English words to find things in common I decided to search by Strong's numbers. I'll give you Genesis 10 links of Strong's numbers in common with Jonah 1-4:

    Genesis 10 and Jonah 1:

    H1121 (son, sons or children mentioned 17 times),
    H1419 (great mentioned 9 times),
    H3068 (LORD mentioned 14 times),
    H3117 (mentioned 2 times),
    H376 (mentioned 4 times),
    H5210 (mentioned 3 times),
    H559 (mentioned 10 times),
    H5892 (city mentioned 3 times),
    H6440 (mentioned 6 times),
    H776 (mentioned 9 times),
    H8659 (mentioned 4 times),
    H935 (come, bring mentioned 6 times),

    <snip>

    My aim is to find a group of words or phrases in common. So Genesis 10 and Jonah have the following names off the top of my head: Tharshish and Nineveh (also called that great city mentioned in Jonah 1, 3 and 4).

    The flow of the story is interesting. Before looking into the statistics it's good to understand the story. This got my interest in rereading Jonah:
    http://www.biblestudytools.com/bible...-in-jonah.html

    Jonah goes down to Joppa (Joppa or Japho = "beautiful") then takes the boat and goes down to sleep. But God told him to go up to Nineveh. Tharshish (Tarshish or Tharshish = "yellow jasper") is the place where both Jehoshaphat and Jonah failed to reach.
    Hey there Greg,

    Good to be chatting again. I completely understand what you are trying to do, since I did the same thing for a long time. The "themes" are easy to grasp, but its very difficult to tell if they are are just coincidences are or not, since we could find similar connections between many things that are not aligned on the Wheel. When I believed in the Bible Wheel one of my big dreams was to write software to objectively analyze of the semantic content of each book of the Bible and then show mathematically that the strongest correlations would exist when the books were in their proper order on the Wheel. This would have been strong evidence of my thesis and would avoid the charge of cherry picking which is essentially what you are doing (and what I had done over many years). That's why I gave the example of the statistics of Tarshish - it coheres more strongly with Spoke 1 than Spoke 10.

    The analysis seems like a job for AI, which is now becoming possible for the average programmer. Years ago I did an analysis of of 500,000 cross-references in The Treasuring of Scriptural Knowledge hoping it would give evidence of the Isaiah-Bible Correlation, but it failed, despite the fact that there are many striking correlations between chapters of Isaiah and corresponding books of the Bible. I now see that those "connections" are often very subjective, or common even between chapters that are not aligned. This played a big role in debunking myself because I compared my Isaiah-Bible Correlation with one produced by other believers who used a different order of books and who concluded that their order was the "true order" because of the connections they found. I explained this in two articles on my blog:

    The Isaiah-Bible Coincidence Debunked

    The Bible Wheel: Patternicity on Steroids

    In those articles, I show how people who used different orders of the books came up with patterns that they thought were designed by God. This is the root error of cherry picking. Anyone can do it with anything. It proves nothing.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there Greg,

    Good to be chatting again. I completely understand what you are trying to do, since I did the same thing for a long time. The "themes" are easy to grasp, but its very difficult to tell if they are are just coincidences are or not, since we could find similar connections between many things that are not aligned on the Wheel. When I believed in the Bible Wheel one of my big dreams was to write software to objectively analyze of the semantic content of each book of the Bible and then show mathematically that the strongest correlations would exist when the books were in their proper order on the Wheel. This would have been strong evidence of my thesis and would avoid the charge of cherry picking which is essentially what you are doing (and what I had done over many years). That's why I gave the example of the statistics of Tarshish - it coheres more strongly with Spoke 1 than Spoke 10.

    The analysis seems like a job for AI, which is now becoming possible for the average programmer. Years ago I did an analysis of of 500,000 cross-references in The Treasuring of Scriptural Knowledge hoping it would give evidence of the Isaiah-Bible Correlation, but it failed, despite the fact that there are many striking correlations between chapters of Isaiah and corresponding books of the Bible. I now see that those "connections" are often very subjective, or common even between chapters that are not aligned. This played a big role in debunking myself because I compared my Isaiah-Bible Correlation with one produced by other believers who used a different order of books and who concluded that their order was the "true order" because of the connections they found. I explained this in two articles on my blog:

    The Isaiah-Bible Coincidence Debunked

    The Bible Wheel: Patternicity on Steroids

    In those articles, I show how people who used different orders of the books came up with patterns that they thought were designed by God. This is the root error of cherry picking. Anyone can do it with anything. It proves nothing.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    Well what's difficult with Genesis 10 is that there are many names which have to be defined to draw more connections. One thing that came through my mind is that maybe not everything is linked to Jonah. However there might be some links to other books or chapters related to Spoke 10. For example Javan's meaning is that first, they are the Ionians, and second it comes from the word Yayin, meaning wine. Noah, being the 10th from Adam got drunk and Leviticus 10 mentioned that the 2 sons of Aaron were killed because they got drunk with wine and then entered in the holy place.

    I was looking into Numbers 18, Deuteronomy 18, Joshua 18 which mention the inheritance of the priests and Levites. And God said that they had none because God is their portion. And when I was reading the 18th year of King Josiah (2Chronicles 34) the High Priest's name was Hilkiah, which I believe was the father of Jeremiah. Hilkiah means Yah's portion. Matthew on the 18th Spoke, was a Levite who was a tax-collector but left his job to follow Jesus.

    Any opinion on that?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Well what's difficult with Genesis 10 is that there are many names which have to be defined to draw more connections. One thing that came through my mind is that maybe not everything is linked to Jonah. However there might be some links to other books or chapters related to Spoke 10. For example Javan's meaning is that first, they are the Ionians, and second it comes from the word Yayin, meaning wine. Noah, being the 10th from Adam got drunk and Leviticus 10 mentioned that the 2 sons of Aaron were killed because they got drunk with wine and then entered in the holy place.

    I was looking into Numbers 18, Deuteronomy 18, Joshua 18 which mention the inheritance of the priests and Levites. And God said that they had none because God is their portion. And when I was reading the 18th year of King Josiah (2Chronicles 34) the High Priest's name was Hilkiah, which I believe was the father of Jeremiah. Hilkiah means Yah's portion. Matthew on the 18th Spoke, was a Levite who was a tax-collector but left his job to follow Jesus.

    Any opinion on that?
    My opinion on that is the same as my opinion on all your cherry picking. As long as you have no way to discern between chance and design, there's no reason to think that the tiny set of examples you found are proof of any design. It doesn't matter how many "connections" you find because for every connection you find, there are usually ten or a hundred or even a thousand that don't follow the pattern of the Bible Wheel.

    This is the criticism you need to answer if you want any one to take your work seriously.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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