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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    The three parts of us; spirit, soul and body, are mentioned together in one verse of note;
    I Thessalonians 5:23
    And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Body = soma,
    soul = psuche,
    spirit = pneuma.

    We are familiar with our bodies; It being the most obvious of the three.
    It is made of material that is connected with this system in which we physically live. It is made of soil.

    The spirit is other worldly, connected with the spirit realm. Like the breath, it is not discerned by the senses. God is spirit.

    It seems that when the body is joined to the spirit, the soul is the result. Does the soul exist only when these two are joined, or, is the soul expressive only when these two are joined? The latter seems more appropriate as the soul appears to remain in "sleep" until the body and spirit of an individual are joined.
    I agree with the blue statement, and the question that follows is very well stated. But I don't know about the "soul sleep" idea. That kinda goes beyond what I can know with certainty.
    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    If this is so, then, the soul represents the consciousness of a person. We certainly may exist, but, if we are not conscious of the existence, then, the soul is not aware..........and, will not be aware until the body and spirit are united again.
    Again, this enters into areas of uncertainty for me. For example, the Hebrew word "nephesh" is used for animals as well as humans. It seems much more fundamentally related to "life" than to "consciousness."
    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    If this is true, then, the spirit has existed in God, awaiting a body in which to be joined. When that occurs, the soul becomes the third part, the expressive conscious part.
    Humm ... that's a new idea to me. I know the Bible says that God gives us spirit, and that it "returns to God" when we die, but I tend to think that's more poetical than anything else. I've never thought of spirits pre-existing and "waiting" to be incarnated. It also sounds like there are many "spirits" in God - and I'm not sure what that would entail.
    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    In such a system, the spirit is also in communion with God's spirit, and is "plugged in", so to speak.
    That's pretty much how I see us in our redeemed state.
    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    But, the overall leadership, or oversight is what is important. Sin, which is "missing", if allowed to take over the body, as it did in the garden with Adam, can cause the body to be dominant, rather that the spirit.

    Such is the case with man after the transgression of Adam.

    The soul becomes more conscious of things of the body in such a case.

    Jesus came to reverse this condition.

    Joel
    Those are some pretty interesting ideas. But I have a slightly different take on the idea of what happened in the garden. I don't think "sin" took over Adam and Eve. The problem was that Adam and Eve responded to the flesh so they "took over" where God should have ruled. The other way of saying it makes sin sound like a thing or an entity that has sunstance. And that idea doesn't seem correct to me.

    That was a lot of good food for thought, thanks Joel.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  2. #32
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    Jan 2008
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    Elisabeth

    Joel's description of soul, body and spirit seems to be correct, at least according to what my friends and I have researched. In Eden man was given the choice to listen or have faith in the Words of God or to listen or have faith in the words of the enemy. From that point of view nothing has changed. We still get that choice. If we accept the words of the enemy this enemy begins to rule in one's life. I personally experienced this rule. There was never silence in my soul. There was always some internal pressure to do this or do that. Get up early to read your Bible was one such pressure. Not get up at six, but at five. In the end I got sleep deprivation and ended up sleeping on the sofa to catch up on sleep in the middle of the day. There was the pressure to give up this or that thing or food that defiled the body. When I was presented with the truth of the gospel I had to ask God to set me free from this evil spirit. I then passed over from death into life.
    So Adam and Eve by listening to the enemy passed over from life to death and under the control of Satan. But that does not exclude what Richard says, that man himself took control. But behind man there always seems to be someone who takes control of man because we become the slaves of evil according to Romans 6:16. Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey-whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
    If we are to be the temple of the holy spirit then it makes sense that when the Holy Spirit does not rule within someone else does instead. The man of sin would then sit in the temple of God as though he is God.

  3. #33
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    Hi Elisabeth

    Good Post!

    Quote Originally Posted by Elisabeth View Post
    If we are to be the temple of the holy spirit then it makes sense that when the Holy Spirit does not rule within someone else does instead. The man of sin would then sit in the temple of God as though he is God.
    That gives a much fuller meaning to that passage. Makes sense ...

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
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    1

    Smile

    Hello!

    Going back to John 9:1-3, I´m wondering that if its written that Jacob and Esau fought while in their mother´s womb then maybe it was thought that a baby could sin while in the womb so that is why they ask Jesus if the man had sinned.

    I truly believe that we had prexistance in God´s mind, as a plan that would be accomplished by all means but not as something already created (which was done at conception)

    God creates all by His word, maybe we were in His thought until we were spoken, and has been thinking about us before the foundation of the world.

    It annoys me that this passage (John 9: 1-3) has been used as a ridiculous excuse to "prove" that there´s reincarnation in the Bible.


    What Abigail says makes a lot of sense to me!

    Blessings!

  5. #35
    Unregistered Guest

    Personal experience

    I found this discussion because I googled for "do we exist in God's mind before we are conceived".

    Briefly, my husband and I struggled to have children for many years. One day I had the most amazing vision. I saw, as clearly as one can, without actually seeing it visually, a baby, interacting intelligently with God. I kind of saw God in the form of the Father cooing a baby who was completely focussed on God, feeling loved and belonging. It was too beautiful for words and left me in tears of joy. It was like being granted a peek into something that was happening outside of our physical realm, a peek into the mind and heart of God.

    For years afterwards, through all the grief that accompanies infertility, through two adoptions, I had an almost rock-sure confidence that this baby was already "existing", known and loved and cherished by God, with a name, a personality, a spirit, and a knowledge of God. And it was just a matter of time until God would "send" it to earth. It was weird. It was a kind of faith that was so sure that even if it had not come to pass, it would still have counted in my mind as fact.

    I did fall pregnant eventually, miraculously, and I now feel that this baby is the very baby I saw in a vision.

    I know one can always explain things away, but to me this is a profound indication that "God’s foreknowledge makes it possible for Him to know us before we are born." (http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_...n/spirits.html)

    And in this case I feel I was granted a piece of God's mind, in order to sustain me, give me joy, hope, even while it may have seemed to outsiders that I had "given up", because we opted to adopt. But even while I was willing to do without a child of my own body, deep down I always "knew" I was still "meant" to give birth.

    It is so hard to talk about these things without resorting to all those terms I put in quotation marks.

    Anyway, I wonder if this adds to the discussion.

  6. #36
    Unregistered Guest

    Perceived as "YES"

    I can only speak from my experience. What is important to myself was this, "I had not read the bible yet. I knew nothing contained in the bible regarding this topic". To experiencing being "Known" by the Father is indescribable. To hear Him (Yes, God is still speaking)..incredible. It is hearing Time and Existence Itself. Eternity ago is a long time. "Now you will Know" translated to, 'you've been Known". After the big endless penetrating waves of forgiveness where He says, "Let..." He created using the word Let. Let there be Light. Let us make man in Our Image. He says, "Let me take that from you". Let yourself be re-created. All this in submissive prayer, on the floor, returned to the dirt one came from. And they arising it higt me,'I've already existed, I just forgot!!". When re receive His Holy Spirit which is of Eternal Ago, the Realization is that in the Spiritual Sense, since it is the same Spirit or OF the Same Spirit which makes us a part of His Family rather apart from Him, as in Separated Innately (sin) from the Source of All Existence..you do indeed become One in Him as Jesus describes in the Book of John so thoroughly. Afterward, it is realized, we have nothing to do with it other than 'letting go of insecurity and doubt' and "Him Taking Our Sins Away"..which previously and paradoxically had acted as an "Insecurity Blanket" that defined our past and who we 'think' we are. Ultimately then as One with Him in Eternity, we are Spirit once His Spirit is received. This could be "Ecstasy", yet I cried and witnessed my own death and burial and rose again. Not until months later did I find what was written by Paul. It is the feeling of Arriving Home. Finally Home. Before that, we are flesh, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Then we can find YADA in the Hebrew Lexicon.

    ability 1, acknowledge 4, acknowledged 2, acquaintances 5, acquainted 1, aware 6, BECOMES KNOWN 1, bring forth 1, cared 1, CHOSEN 2, clearly understand 2, COHABIT 1, comprehend 1, concern 2, concerned 1, consider 3, declare 1, detected 1, directed 1, discern 2, disciplined 1, discovered 3, distinguish 1, endowed 3, experienced 4, experiences 1, familiar friend 1, find 5, found 1, gain 1, had knowledge 1, had relations 6, had...relations 1, has 1, has regard 1, has...knowledge 1, have 4, have relations 3, have...knowledge 2, ignorant* 1, illiterate* 1, indeed learn 1, inform 1, informed 4, instruct 3, instructed 1, intimate friends 1, investigate 2, knew 38, know 542, know for certain 4, know with certainty 1, know ASSUREDLY 1, know well 1, knowing 5, knowledge 4, known 65, knows 54, knows well 1, lain* 1, leading 1, learn 7, learned 1, literate* 1, MADE HIMSELF KNOWN 2, made it known 1, made myself known 2, MADE KNOWN 10, make himself known 1, make his known 1, make it known 1, make my known 1, make myself known 4, make them known 1, make your known 1, make yourself known 1, make known 14, notice 2, observe 2, perceive 1, perceived 1, possibly know 1, predict 1, professional mourners 1, provided 1, raped 1, read* 1, REALIZE 1, realized 5, recognize 2, recognized 1, regard 1, satisfied* 1, seems 1, show 3, SHOWN 1, skillful 3, sure 1, take knowledge 1, take note 1, take notice 1, taught 2, teach 6, tell 3, tells 1, took notice 1, unaware* 1, unawares* 1, understand 10, understands 1, understood 3, unknown* 1, very well know 1, well aware 1

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
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    100
    Biblically yes "SOME" of us in a way before conception. (long answer needs a new thread.)

    "The three parts of us; spirit, soul and body, are mentioned together in one verse of note;
    I Thessalonians 5:23
    And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

    Actually there is a soul, a dust body, and a spirit body.

    heaven(where God is) is Biblically a physical place we can get too (die in the process but possible).
    Last edited by Funky1096; 03-04-2013 at 08:04 AM.
    "There is nothing but shame to be gained by willfully holding to false opinions!"
    How true.

  8. #38
    Unregistered Guest

    A simplified answer

    This is a question that normally requires a definition of the terms 'soul' and 'spirit' to answer?and to go deep would require pages & pages, references & cross-references. However, in order to explain it to children, I believe the Holy Spirit gave me an analogy which may be useful:

    God is Spirit; He exists in all realms regardless of time. Earth is a physical, time-confined realm that He created. God used Earth-dust elements to create a physical body. Adam first existed when God breathed His Spirit into the physical body. This resulted in a living soul, a human soul, the first man. At this point in Earth-time, the man we now call Jesus was the Word.

    In a small way, we can think of it like this: We are three-part beings; spirit, soul, body. Our soul, the portion that makes us a unique human, came into being at conception in Earth-time. Of course, God had planned it in eternity. Flour exists and sugar exists, but a birthday cake starts when they are joined together. The cake did not exist before, even though the ingredients existed. A cake still has substance from the flour and sweetness from the sugar, so it has attributes or qualities or traits that are like the ingredients that formed it.

    Our souls can connect to the spirit because we are spirit. Our souls can connect to the physical because of our body, but this connection is limited to Earth-time because our body is made from earth-elements. (Because of this limitation, God has planned glorified bodies for us.)

    Under natural circumstances, nothing can separate a cake. The Bible says that only the Word can separate spirit and soul. Did we exist before we were conceived? No, not as full humans, but a portion of our "ingredients" pre-existed. This understanding leads to new questions about how much communication and knowledge we can/should have with extra-dimensional realms.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    This is a question that normally requires a definition of the terms 'soul' and 'spirit' to answer?and to go deep would require pages & pages, references & cross-references. However, in order to explain it to children, I believe the Holy Spirit gave me an analogy which may be useful:

    God is Spirit; He exists in all realms regardless of time. Earth is a physical, time-confined realm that He created. God used Earth-dust elements to create a physical body. Adam first existed when God breathed His Spirit into the physical body. This resulted in a living soul, a human soul, the first man. At this point in Earth-time, the man we now call Jesus was the Word.

    In a small way, we can think of it like this: We are three-part beings; spirit, soul, body. Our soul, the portion that makes us a unique human, came into being at conception in Earth-time. Of course, God had planned it in eternity. Flour exists and sugar exists, but a birthday cake starts when they are joined together. The cake did not exist before, even though the ingredients existed. A cake still has substance from the flour and sweetness from the sugar, so it has attributes or qualities or traits that are like the ingredients that formed it.

    Our souls can connect to the spirit because we are spirit. Our souls can connect to the physical because of our body, but this connection is limited to Earth-time because our body is made from earth-elements. (Because of this limitation, God has planned glorified bodies for us.)

    Under natural circumstances, nothing can separate a cake. The Bible says that only the Word can separate spirit and soul. Did we exist before we were conceived? No, not as full humans, but a portion of our "ingredients" pre-existed. This understanding leads to new questions about how much communication and knowledge we can/should have with extra-dimensional realms.
    Hello Unregistered

    It seems like the place where your analogy of the birthday cake breaks down is that the ingredients of flour and sugar are made up of the same atoms that are the building blocks of everything that exists in the universe. So, the flour and sugar have no cake qualities about them before the cake is made, just like the atoms that make up humans have no "humanness" about them before a human is conceived and formed.

    Saying that the "ingredients" that make up humans pre-existed does not in any way show that "we" existed in any sense before we were conceived. All the energy in the universe that forms the atoms was created at the Big Bang, and is in a continual process of forming into different atoms and molecules. The atoms that are the "ingredients" of our bodies were formed in the heart of stars ... we are made of star dust
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    184

    Grace

    Our Flesh is mortal
    our Spirit immortal
    yet our Souls remain erasable

    eg.
    Flesh = Hardware
    Soul = Software
    Spirit = Godsware

    Hawking was wrong!
    We cannot erase the past
    yet as with freedom of choice,
    we can choose to forgive and forget

    Now that's what I call Grace!

    Mick
    So were you worth it?
    Seriously think about it . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . were you worth dying on the cross for?

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