The 'Christian' doctrine of Original Sin refuted

[David M]

Hello Timmy
In coming back to this thread, I see that I replied to Charisma before replying to you. I have not seen you posting of late and expect you are busy with your projects. You have given me a long post and I shall try to be brief. There will be adequate time to go over everything again as we correspond in future threads. I will comment of a few things.

Hello again "David M.",

You might think considerations here concerning the ways and means you operate is unfounded and perchance wonder why there really is little rebuttal.

In response, you exhibit a most profound ignorance and rather than owning up to this fact. In your own foolish satanic pride displaying unquestionable logical fallacy, you prove to your selfs that you are a legend in your own mind. A majority of onlookers see your will and ways extremely different than you do.

Several here have attempted to explain to you your erroroneous ways. Only a few of these compatriots here--that immediately come to mind in this regard--are:
--Rose
--Charisma
--silence
--Mystical
--L67
--Psalm 27.1
--Heb. 13.13
--Bob May

Your assumption that Richard and myself are so much like one another has now been shown to you to not be the case at all...so drop it. In fact quit comparing people to other persons as though they could somehow be the same.

Maybe I have had mixed signals from you. At one time, I thought you were closely in agreement with me about some things and I saw you as not agreeing with Richard. My opinion has changed recently. I will continue to accept that you have much with Richard to disagree about. As for the others, they belong more or less to the same camp. it is not surprising they have a similar message. I am in the minority on this forum. That is OK. Those who spoke for God were also in the minority. I do not claim to be better than anyone. I oppose what I think is false and what the Bible states as false. All we have to do is find agreement on what is false.

On the other hand, to identify an ideological fallacy you have chosen to own and promote, whether Rood or your favorite kultus is not unjustified in consideration as you have proven no differently. Besides, a label is only a label, and yet if the shoe fits, wear it.

I am not going to wear your shoes from what you have said so far. Unless, I see a change of mind in you, I doubt you can change my mind. I am letting the word of God change my mind for the better.

Why in the face of truths and facts you spit on, why oh why do you instead delude yourself further????

You have not presented me with facts. I exposed the false logic in your statements. You hold on to that type of reasoning, and do not appear to be accepting any other possibility. Why expect from others, what you are not prepared to do?

Instead of being grateful to all who have wasted alot of time trying to reason with your lack of reason, you instead seem to act as if everyone is just out to get you, which is hardly the case...but you continue to put yourself on display; and yet, one fact recognizable of this forum is that once we make our voice heard, it is open season: sometimes quaint, sometimes nice, sometimes blunt, sometimes sarcastically or with cynicism. YET, there will be investigative analysis picking through whatever ambiguity that appears to hold inconsistency to each of us from our own perspectives.

OK, I express my appreciation now. I do not think I have received much appreciation from those you list in return for the long explanations I have given.

Nobody here has your demise in mind ...and several of us are praying for y'all.

Thank you. I wish the same for you. There is an irony. It is like the Chaplins for opposing armies thinking God is on their side when if fact, God is on neither of their sides. I hold everything you and everyone else says up against God's word.

Reading your post to Richard that he has given such prominence out from "Why I Quit Christianity" says alot about the undercurrents behind many of your considerations, as well as priorities. For me, it cuts to the heart of where you presently stand in approach, attitude, and demeanor.
In fact, a bit more heart to heart would be appreciated (here at least) instead of all the promotion of what you say you consider to be absolute. It is not an issue of disparity noted in these things so much as if we will be learning to recognize these things as they exist and will find the way to move forward beyond what is recognized as blind faith and beliefs that hold no substance throughout our real world experiences.

We can all be accused of being passionate about what we think/believe. My passion comes across as arrogance and I am sorry about that. At least, my passion has not resorted to verbal abuse that has come from you.

You might think me mean and you are entitled to this; but, you do not see things from this perspective even as I do not clearly see your paradigm or world view through those glasses.

We have to carry on reasoning. We are not finished by a long way on any one subject. I await your tome to convince me that Jesus is God. That is the subject of another thread; 'Jesus is not God'.

Granted, you could probably find several inconsistencies in my own reasoning...without having the full picture, and yet you have failed to show this though you could have. Remember, we are now talking about disambiguation...and alot of times things are intentionally left open-ended or made to seem without reason by the Timmy for the sake of further examination of my own inconsistencies.

I will wait for the full picture from you. You do not know that I have finished presenting the full picture. I have for example a list taken from another website listing 200 reasons why Jesus is not God. That is for the other thread.

Still...instead of gratefulness for the mercy and grace our Happy Host has ceaselessly showed us both, why are you so insistent that many of the things you promote make little if any sense at all when exposed to the light of cogent facts????? You are beginning to prove yourself a hopeless conflagration onto yourself. Have you ever just sat down and considered how much time Richard alone has burned on you, only for you to smack him back with logical fallacy ad infinitum?

Not while I am still exposing the contradictions Richard makes and have reason not to agree with him. It could be a never-ending discussion with any of us, so long as we keep bringing new reasons to the table.

Indeed “Wisdom is the principle thing”, and yet your own insistent negations of sensible logical reasoning belie the beliefs you think somehow people who are thoroughly prepared to give an answer from our own perspectives are somehow going to buy into that?

...so do not even wonder why you are seen to exhibit the characteristics of both troll and shill.

...What persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
_{II Timothy 3.11b-17}

It is desired that you will consider the above words in bold without any self justifications, even though this is a strong tendency for all of us manimals to do. It is also asked you consider the comments Charis posted toward your own well being.

Charisma does not come over to begin with as appearing to have my well-being in consideration. It is in all of our interest to keep reasoning and for all to change as the truth is revealed. The truth does not change even though we cannot agree what it is.

It is one thing to be renounced and defamed for Faith in Y'shua and another altogether to be denounced for unreasonability.

It is reasonable not to bow down to Satan, the Devil or the Serpent, unless you happen to be one of them. I am not unreasonable in the sight of God not to comply with the Devil.

You have yet to show any sound cogent reasoning, deceived darling dolly diva deludedly thinking any can find your vain imaginings to be anything worthwhile.

I have done so, and you have not responded in the same way. You can prove yourself correct or otherwise when you give full explanation.

For all the hubbub of your saying stupid stuff like "this discussion is over", no matter the whatnots and wherefores, you seem to appear to have somehow become hooked into reading what travels from inside of me and through these fingertips into our beloved B.W.F.A.™.

Why is is stupid when the stupidity or insaneness is to keep going around in circles expecting a different result?

...and in a roundabout answer to that question once troubling you about the Timmy, it is best to forget it.
Richard's posting and placing the song by Kansas, "Carry On My Wayward Son" will tell you oh so much about me in far fewer words than any discursions of mental meanderings Timmy is prone to lose everyone in, including hir selfs.

OK. I cannot remember the question.

You have once again focused on the issues surrounding the premise and not accounting yourself to what is proposed--(kind of like knowing you are going to burn in hell but fail to do anything to alter that. The burning in hell is the result and not the cause of completely defying His revelation of who He is so that you can Know Him as He is and not merely some imagined reasoning about Him).

So, first comes the answer to your query, and then what is actually meant and intended in that brief statement can be clarified for your own benefit.

Nobody on earth has the same knowledge, and receptivity to environmental stimuli foreshadows perception, perspective onto retention. So, your response in that first statement is saying very little and actually sounds like an excuse of resignation.

How do I consider myself to have a clearer picture? I really am not sure that I do, but I know the one who does; and in this Tanakh reveals I am becoming wiser than all my teachers through nothing I have done except continue to memorize and meditate in The Torah from Eloheinu: when I arise and when I go to sleep, when I sit down and when I stand up, when I am thinking about something in particular and when I am not, when I speak and when I remain silent, when I pray and when I take care of all other secondary responsibilities, when I am busy and when I relax, Etc. Etc. Etc...and the proof is in the pudding: real world results as promised in the Holy Scriptures, beginning with deepening relationship with Yaweh, and benefits to everyone about me who blesses and will not curse me.

Rationalization comes from rational thought, and in the scriptures this is understood as the first part of, and parceled within the factors composing wickedness. Without God's thoughts directing any reasoning, only leads to transgression against God and ultimately results in death. Let me tell you, I see this very thing very clearly from my own life experiences, and yet this has arrived only after years expended seeking God's face. So, let the worldly wise babble on with however any consider the supposed voice of intellectual, reason, or rationale; because to Elohim it is all foolishness: ashes to ashes and dust in the wind.

I am not saying that I have personal experience like you, I will let someone else who has, disagree with you about how they see things differently to you.

There is no mutual ground of understanding where another cannot even understand to receive, or is that receive to understand?

Are you saying that you cannot get a person to understand if they do not want to understand? I am listening to your reasoning, but you cannot expect me to accept it blindly.

You will probably continue to reason (not from, but) about the scriptures, and yet I persist in learning how to better and better relate with Yah on His terms. Our motives and practices are entirely in opposition to one another. I am trying to get closer to Him and you remain distanced. I shall not back down and I shall not sit idly by when another fellow human being is observed to be destroying themselves on the highway to hell, for Jesus the Christ who shall raise up every human and judge them according to what they have done in regard to Him judges rightly...and His word reveals the fate of receivers who are deceived as you.

God's terms are written in his word. It cannot be of any private interpretation. To say it is, is the reason for all the many different religions and confusion to those on the outside (and within).

"David M.", in all truth, there are only two religions in the world, so it really does matter what anyone is identified with when God of Heaven and Earth is secondarily relative to whatever the label is of those teachings and reasonings.

I am not putting God second. I refuse to be labelled for then you judge me according to the label. The only cult figure we should follow is Jesus.

Have you ever stopped to think that the Apostles have referred to Tanakh in different places of the Ha'B'rit Hadasha (NT) as “the word of Kurios/the Lord/God"?

This fact signifies the palpability of experiencing Y'shua in our lives in relating with Him on His terms in that the whole Bible is for the sole purpose of revealing Himself to us in every aspect of His beingness, so that whoever remains trusting Him (as He reveals Himself to be) shall never perish.

Even as His Spirit--this spirit of God--is the same yesterday, right now, and forever, even so Jesus, the very person behind this spirit is the same: Hebrews 13.8.

Those two religions can be summarized as follows:
1) What man attempts to do to appease and relate with whoever or whatever they consider God, be that themselves, their reasoning, or any type of sectarianism whether kultic or supposedly xian;

&

2) What God has done for us to be received through experiencing the life, death, and resurrection of Y'shua Ha'Mashiach by coming into identification with Him in thought, word, and deed.

It is either a matter of expecting God to operate on your terms which never becomes anything but an imaginary experience at best...or...coming into a familial relationship with God on His terms and this growing relationship within Him fulfills every facet of our existence.[/color]

The quoted statements from Timmy were epitomizing your own informal, formal and inductive fallacies you espouse, particularly "cherry picking" and "straw man" argumentation (inductive) and your tendency to skirt the issues (informal), yet you often begin with unrelated generalizations (formal) ignoring the premise for the discussion/debate in the first place.

As stated, those games are over, so examine what you say before writing whatever you claim, or it more than likely shall be met with complete silence as it deserves.

Silence from you might be the better option. I have read the verses many times which you have quoted and I think about them often. I let the word of God mould me into the character he would like. The progress might be slow, but God is long-suffering. What I am not able to acheive by the time of my death, I have confidence God will correct, when granting immortality.

Little mention has been made of your most deceptive fallacies of exclusion though.

If a person cannot handle the Law of Non-Contradiction, it appears useless--as you have proven in the thread that denies Jesus is God--to attempt further understanding how x=y even though the outward appearance of these two factors seem not to be similar.[/color]

I am directed to the Law of non-Contradiction and what is the first thing I read; the difficult arises from the ambiguity in the suppositions. The ambiguity is the cause of the argument.

Later maybe,

Þ.Œ.

p.s. Have you considered posting in the "Street Epistemology" thread and see how you fare there?
...and BTW, the Bereans based all their understanding of Scripture on other Scripture, not anywhere near what you have done and do, basing what you assume the Bible should mean because of sources that are nowhere near Biblical text. (There will be hell to atone for your misdeeds because you fail to admit or receive what God says exists FOR YOU by His Word, Y'shua Ha'Mashiach.)

So are you saying that the ancient Hebrew scriptures which make up the Old Testament are not sufficient? Has not God revealed to us all that is sufficient to know? We have the texts Jesus was referring to, when he said; "It is written.." Maybe we should start by agreeing what Jesus believed.

Shalom
David

[dust]

Although the following contains quite a few scriptures, I think it belongs in this forum rather than 'Biblical Studies' or 'Hermeneutics and Theology'.

This is not a dissonance-free experience, but I think it exposes some fallacies held by Christians, including myself. Enjoy!

@Charisma - For heaven's sake, Man, it's in our DNA. That is the reason we ALL die. When Man was made, our Almighty Creator did not INTRODUCE DEATH, deatjh was an addendum, introduced by His arch enemy. Yeshua said it very clearly:

[Matthew 13:24-28] 24 "He set another parable before them, saying, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who sowed good SEED in his field, 25 but while people SLEPT, his ENEMY came and SOWED DARNELL also AMONG THE WHEAT, and went away. 26 But when the blade sprang up and brought forth fruit, then the DARNELL APPEARED ALSO. 27 The servants of the householder came and said to him, 'Sir, didn't you sow GOOD SEED in your field? Where did this darnel come from?' 28 "He said to them, 'AN ENEMY HAS DONE THIS.' "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and gather them up?'"

Did Augustine know about this Parable? Who knows, but that is irrelevant. We DIE, because of this "sin", which is error. Our DNA is full with it. It also created viruses? You think the Almighty is the Creator of Ebola? Insects like the fly; you think the Scriptures call satan "the Lord of the flies" for nothing?

Unless you have a light, you cannot see the way in the dark. That is the reason we all have: "I AM the Truth, the Light and the Life; no one comes to the Father BUT through me." Think about it...



dust

[David M]

@Charisma - For heaven's sake, Man, it's in our DNA. That is the reason we ALL die. When Man was made, our Almighty Creator did not INTRODUCE DEATH, deatjh was an addendum, introduced by His arch enemy. Yeshua said it very clearly:

[Matthew 13:24-28] 24 "He set another parable before them, saying, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who sowed good SEED in his field, 25 but while people SLEPT, his ENEMY came and SOWED DARNELL also AMONG THE WHEAT, and went away. 26 But when the blade sprang up and brought forth fruit, then the DARNELL APPEARED ALSO. 27 The servants of the householder came and said to him, 'Sir, didn't you sow GOOD SEED in your field? Where did this darnel come from?' 28 "He said to them, 'AN ENEMY HAS DONE THIS.' "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and gather them up?'"

Did Augustine know about this Parable? Who knows, but that is irrelevant. We DIE, because of this "sin", which is error. Our DNA is full with it. It also created viruses? You think the Almighty is the Creator of Ebola? Insects like the fly; you think the Scriptures call satan "the Lord of the flies" for nothing?

Unless you have a light, you cannot see the way in the dark. That is the reason we all have: "I AM the Truth, the Light and the Life; no one comes to the Father BUT through me." Think about it...

dust

Hello dust

Maybe death was already programmed into all living things and Adam and Eve had to be faithful in order for God to sustain them for eternity. I do not know that eating of the Tree of Life would have resulted in any physical changes of the DNA. Scientist could regard the Tree of Life as the elixir of life, something science might never find. It could be a possibility that God changes the DNA at the resurrection. I see no reason for an immortal body not to be made of earth as it is now. We know that God works at the atomic level and that should be sufficient for us to know that God knows what he is doing. Eve should have eaten of the Tree of Life before eating of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Her first choice was not the right one. That is a scenario we cannot go back and try to see what the outcome would be.

It is a fact, that from the day we are conceived, we are dying creatures. The fact that cells in the body die and have a limited life is proof that we are dying creatures from when we are born. It was once thought that the body should be able to replicate cells and live for ever. With the knowledge gained of the DNA molecule, the limited life of the DNA is explained. Maybe that is the part of DNA God will change in future. I would not say that programmed DNA that dies, is sin. Sin is not innate in us from the beginning. Sin starts with is our first act of disobedience. That act is the product of our own thought process. Once we have sinned, we are subject to eternal death. Though Jesus experienced death, he was not subject to eternal death. That is why Jesus and all those who will be raised to eternal life, regard death as a sleep. Only in the sleep of death, is the spirit preserved in the hands of God. That is why Jesus said just before his death; "into thy hands I commit (commend) my spirit". And at the point his work was finished, he yielded up his spirit.

The fact is; Jesus was born human. The natural body of Jesus was dying from the day he was born. There is nothing to suggest that Jesus was not a man with exactly the same make up and nature as all other men and women. Had Jesus not been crucified and died young, it can be assumed that Jesus would have grown old and died a natural death. Even so, there is no reason to assume Jesus would not have remained sinless. Therefore, so long as Jesus remained sinless, God would have to raise Jesus from the dead; because God is true to his word and Jesus could not be allowed to remain eternally dead.

It is fact that Jesus is the only person to have lead a sinless life and so by the rules God has set, we shall all die as we have not earned the right to eternal life. The wages of sin is death; that is what we are told. By death, we understand that to mean eternal death, in which there is no conciousness and no memory. It is only by God's grace we can be saved. That grace is dependent upon us accepting God is Creator and Jesus is the son of God and that Jesus came in the flesh. It is only by being obedient to the instruction of Jesus, thereby conforming to the instruction of God, that through the victory won by Jesus, we can also win the victory through Christ. There is nothing we can do of ourselves, whereby we can save ourselves.

Incidentally, the knowledge we have gained about DNA is only in its infancy. With a human genome in the egg and sperm cells that have around 3 billion base pairs in which there are around 20,000 protein coding genes, there is a long way to go before identifying what they are all responsible for. If that were not enough, we now know we have ten times that number of micro-organisms living in us that makes up our human microbiome. In the human body, we have approximately 10¹³cells and we have 10¹⁴ micro-organisms. Hence, as he Psalmist writes (Psalm 139:14 );I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

All the best
David

[duxrow]

Hi David, Takes us 33 years (King David's number) to reach our prime, and then it turns around! Why is that? Like the flowers that bloom and Sequoia's that last, our threescore and seven goes by in a flash.. amen?

[David M]

Hi David, Takes us 33 years (King David's number) to reach our prime, and then it turns around! Why is that? Like the flowers that bloom and Sequoia's that last, our threescore and seven goes by in a flash.. amen?

Hello Dux. Therefore, we can say that Jesus was cut off in his prime. 33 is close to 35 (half of 70). If a person lives to 100, is their prime still set in the 30's? There is bound to be a spread of of ages at which people are at their prime and so we take the average. Even in their prime, people die unexpectedly from defects undetected at birth.

As to why; my only answer is; God has set it up this way.

I am reminded of a thought for the day I heard many years ago. It was said that old age is like struggling to the top of the hill and enjoying the ride down. I remember saying to a friend after hearing that thought; "it is better to have reached the top of the hill, than not reached it". It appears we have a 35 year struggle to ride up hill, and afterwards, we have a similar time to coast down hill.

All the best

David

[duxrow]

As you say, David, its the Way we're programmed. The 'prime years' may be another 33, but even those who escape hospital stays will soon experience a slow-down, and the 6 footer may notice he's only 5:9...

[David M]

As you say, David, its the Way we're programmed. The 'prime years' may be another 33, but even those who escape hospital stays will soon experience a slow-down, and the 6 footer may notice he's only 5:9...

Yes Dux. Funny how what we lose in height, as we get old, we gain more in girth.

David

[Domenic]

HERETIC

her·e·tic
[n. her-i-tik; adj. her-i-tik, huh-ret-ik] Show IPA
noun
1.
a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.
2.
Roman Catholic Church . a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith.
3.
anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.


I'm not number 2 because I'm not a catholic. I am part way into number 1, because I believe differently on some doctrines.
Number 3 I have a hard time understanding. What established, doctrine, or principle? If this is speaking about what religions teach, I can only agree with some of their teachings. I follow the Bible, religions do not...thus I guess all religions would see me as a heretic.
My only concern is how God sees me.
Here are things I believe are against scripture:
1) Going to Heaven.
2) A Hell of fire.
3) Jesus died for all our sins.
4) Religions.
5) All people are saved.
6) Adam, and Eve ate a fruit.
7) Jesus is God the Father.
8) Jesus was not the first born of all creation.

I believe that those who believe the above 8 things are true, are Heretic. An no, I am not a Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Matthjar]

Hiya Dust..... oh One of my Favorite teachings of Jesus..... I think it is I am the Way theTruth and the Life...... There are other places though that he describes himself as the Light though.... so maybe it is just a different Translation i am not familiar with...... The only reason I bring it up is because i always loved that special synergy of "I am the Way , the Truth, and the Life." Along with and No man comes to the farther except through me...... which doubly reinforces I am the Way,,,,,, I know Alot of people point to this as The Christian religion proclaiming exclusivity........ which it is .... but when you understand what Jesus represents then it is very easy to see why he is the Only Way to the Father..... Open to ALL makes it rather inclusive......;-)

[Matthjar]

At least i am not aware of anyone that Jesus did not pay the debt for that they could not pay......