The 'Christian' doctrine of Original Sin refuted

[Charisma]

Hi Timmy,

Thank you for all the time you've taken to look into this. I agree that the arguments are both lopsided and incorrect, but because they are not based simply in a misreading of scripture, but also reflect certain responses to false doctrines, it is not easy to disentangle, all the less easy because of Mike DeSario's teaching, to which I must admit I have not listened extensively.

Do you believe 1 John 1:7?

Does the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse us from all sin?

You see, this is part of his complaint about what is taught in churches today - that we can never be cleansed from all sin - that we cannot have victory over sin - that our standing with God is only 'positional', not actual - that the very fact of having a body means we are always sinning and unable to stop.

Does the New Testamant teach any of those doctrines?

It is wondered how you might think he is coming to truth expositing pseudo-truths, or half-sided at best???

You're funny!

It's this: I have an idea of where he's been, and that he has a lot more light now, than at one time. Truth is absolute. Reckoning with it is a process.

He has done a lot of listening to a lot of garbage. That is why he has done a lot of studying - to try to find out what is really true. I don't think he is intentionally mixing things up. I think he needs more people to discuss with, who aren't just going to imply (or suggest) he is an unsaved heretic as their most compelling plank of argument against his. He really does want to look at the subject matter objectively, and I think he is well capable of doing that.

To me, one of the key mistakes in logic, is the reference to these lines (in bold, the verse preceding is for context - if it is related) -

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,
and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat,
that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good...'

The meaning of this needs more discussion, because Jesus was different. He took on Him the 'likeness of sinful flesh' but He Himself did not sin, He resisted every temptation, and kept His heart pure. Was that because He had had to learn how to discern the difference between 'the evil' and 'the good'?

Surely the reason that Adam's children need to learn how to discern between good and evil, is because they are born with that tree bearing that fruit through their lives spontaneously ... which is something that Jesus never had/did. He was the tree of Life, only bearing the fruit of that Tree.

I think it was around this point, and somehow extrapolating between Adam and Jesus incorrectly, that I had some thoughts. I seem to remember that Adam was given an attribute or attributes which justified an incorrect conclusion, despite the lack of scripture to back it/them up. This is what I mean about forming doctrine as a reaction to false doctrine, trying to get a solution which solves both what is in the Bible and corrects the false doctrine simultaneously. Frequently false doctrine is built on incorrect reasoning from scripture, so this is where the dissections get complicated.

The idea that all (people) will inevitably sin, but that the propensity to sin is not part of what we are as humans - that we aren't fallen until we fall - baffles me. If there was just one other person in history who had lived an entirely sinless life apart from Jesus Christ, the thesis would hold a spoonful more water, but for there to be no-one apart from Jesus who's never sinned... just blows that reasoning to pieces, imho. And there's more; but it must wait.

These things about the Ark and Gogatha were already known from scripture and it is good to see conformation of that.

Where, please?


May you find the grace of God in rich abundance as you read Augustine!

[Timmy]

These things about the Ark and Gogatha were already known from scripture and it is good to see conformation of that.

Where, please?

Charis,
If that means i have to go look that up, you can do it.

Read OT Temple ordinances of the priesthood, particularly concerning Pesach. Check out what Moshe did in initiating this Everlasting Covenant (some not knowing any better, refer to as the Old Covenant--but, it is only the Temple ordinances that are fading away...as Hebrews clearly states.) Next, read through Hebrews, paying special attention to chapter 2, and from the end of 4 gradually detailing in culmination right around 9.12. Next build a composite of all the gospel accounts concerning Jesus final sacrifice verifying the validity of the OC. (For this is the very reason His High Priestly sacrifice of Himself was offered and accepted: to fully establish forever the covenant once observed in type through continual proxy sacrifices. What was initiated at Sinai was finally fully established in Him by offering His own blood up Himself as testator, and arising from the dead to sit as mediator of this fulfilled will and testament.) Anyway, after you have that composite firmly fixed in your consciousness, read through the shorter books of the prophets and Isaiah...and i cannot recall to tell you exactly where, but there are fragments of this foretold throughout...and then there are the Psalms. ((If i can contact Bob (from our Burning Hearts gatherings,) he will have everything scribed...but several of us divided the task work up to piece it all together more swiftly.)

Should you complete this before Bob can be contacted, we're pretty sure from your own seeking things will then be recalled further.


More later,

ޜ

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Do you believe 1 John 1:7?

Does the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse us from all sin?

You see, this is part of his complaint about what is taught in churches today - that we can never be cleansed from all sin - that we cannot have victory over sin - that our standing with God is only 'positional', not actual - that the very fact of having a body means we are always sinning and unable to stop.

Does the New Testamant teach any of those doctrines?

Hey there Charisma,

Do you believe 1 John 1:8?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If you say that Jesus has cleansed you of all sin (1 John 1:7), then are you not denying 1 John 1:8?

The key, of course, is to note that the 1 John 1:7 does not say that Jesus has cleansed (past tense) but "cleanseth" (present active) which indicates an ongoing action in response to ongoing sin.

This is why the most fervent and devoted Bible believers often come to diametrically opposed conclusions, and accuse each other of believing "false doctrines." The Bible is extremely ambiguous (especially since it is written in languages most believers can't understand) and its interpretation depends upon fallible humans. How is it you could feel confident to judge others as believing "false doctrines"? What qualifies you above any other believer?

Richard

[Charisma]

Hi Timmy,

Thank you indeed, for your directions. This sounds like a glorious treasure hunt! I might do some help enlisting, myself!

The key, of course, is to note that the 1 John 1:7 does not say that Jesus has cleansed (past tense) but "cleanseth" (present active) which indicates an ongoing action in response to ongoing sin.

This is at the heart of the discussion in this thread. Sin being an on-going issue is not the issue. Rather, the issue is whether one has laid hold on the help of the Holy Spirit made possible by the death and resurrection of Christ, in a new relationship with sin, in which sin no longer has dominion over one's life.

If the true Light is shining in our hearts (minds), we should expect to find faulty attitudes all over the place, from before we were buried with Christ prefiguring out own death through baptism into His death. Again, if we are honestly seeking to please God and walk in the Way, repentance, healing and faith will come easily on every minute point as we are being changed from glory to glory. His word is like a mirror, which shows us what needs to be put right.

If a person has determined to cease from sin, the help of the Holy Spirit and the revelations which come from the Lord Himself, can be welcomed; not feared.

[Timmy]

Aloha Richard and Charisma,

Mr. Smarty pants says, "Do you believe I John. 1.9?"

No seriously, let's look at some verses together:
[my own translation from the TR...check and see how this is what the Greek actually says]

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we to you, that you also may have fellowship with us, and our fellowship with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ;

4 and these things we write to you, that your joy may be full.

5 And this is the message that we have heard from Him, and announce to you, that God is light, and darkness in Him is not at all;

6 if we should say-- we have fellowship with Him, and in the darkness may walk-- we lie, and do not the truth;

7 and if in the light we should walk as He is in the light-- we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son does clean us from every sin;

8 if we may say-- we have not sin, ourselves we lead astray, and the truth is not in us;

9 if we should confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous that He might forgive us the sins, and might cleanse us from every unrighteousness;

10 if we may say-- we have not sinned, a liar we make Him, and His word is not in us.

The imperative concerning these verses and what we are talking about is:

--we lie if we walk in darkness and say we have fellowship with Him, we lead ourselves astray
--we commit sin(s)
--Jesus Christ is faithful and just.
--Cleansing from sin begins to become possible with admitting we sin to Him
--we make Him a liar if we say we do not sin
--Cleansing from sin is through walking as Jesus walks (in the light).


Now let's get what it literally says in a few verses from Romans 3:

22 ...the righteousness of God [is] through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing,-- for there is no difference,

23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
[in english v.23 could be better translated as: "for all continually sin and are falling short of"]

24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that [is] in Christ Jesus,

25 whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the manifestation of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God--

26 for the manifestation of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who [is] of the faithfulness of Jesus.

Anyone who does not walk as Jesus walked is not of His faithfulness.

The Holy Spirit is not active in our lives separate from keeping Jesus' commandments (John chapters 14 thru 16), or as Paul and John say it concisely, either walking in the light as He is (John), or of the faith(fulness) of Jesus (Paul).

Hope this helps,


ޜ

[Charisma]

Mr. Smarty pants says, "Do you believe I John. 1.9?"

No seriously, let's look at some verses together:
[my own translation from the TR...check and see how this is what the Greek actually says]

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we to you, that you also may have fellowship with us, and our fellowship with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ;

4 and these things we write to you, that your joy may be full.

5 And this is the message that we have heard from Him, and announce to you, that God is light, and darkness in Him is not at all;

6 if we should say-- we have fellowship with Him, and in the darkness may walk-- we lie, and do not the truth;

7 and if in the light we should walk as He is in the light-- we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son does clean us from every sin;

8 if we may say-- we have not sin, ourselves we lead astray, and the truth is not in us;

9 if we should confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous that He might forgive us the sins, and might cleanse us from every unrighteousness;

10 if we may say-- we have not sinned, a liar we make Him, and His word is not in us.

The imperative concerning these verses and what we are talking about is:

--we lie if we walk in darkness and say we have fellowship with Him, we lead ourselves astray
--we commit sin(s)
--Jesus Christ is faithful and just.
--Cleansing from sin begins to become possible with admitting we sin to Him
--we make Him a liar if we say we do not sin
--Cleansing from sin is through walking as Jesus walks (in the light).


Now let's get what it literally says in a few verses from Romans 3:

22 ...the righteousness of God [is] through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing,-- for there is no difference,

23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
[in english v.23 could be better translated as: "for all continually sin and are falling short of"]

24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that [is] in Christ Jesus,

25 whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the manifestation of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God--

26 for the manifestation of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who [is] of the faithfulness of Jesus.

Anyone who does not walk as Jesus walked is not of His faithfulness.

Hello again, Timmy,

(I've quoted most of your reply because it is on the previous page.)


It deserves a bit more discussion, (I think), mainly on two points (at the moment):

1) did you consciously choose (sin) 'continually' instead of 'continuously'? ('continually' = intermittently, while 'continuously' = without a break)

and are you saying

2) we can be clean from sin continuously if we walk in the light so that the blood of Jesus Christ is continuously cleansing us or, do you perceive our state to be one in which we can be cleansed of specific 'sins' only after we have confessed them?

Or are you saying we simply never stop sinning, and that being buried with Him in His death as Paul states in Romans 6 is only figurative at this stage in our relationship with Him, rather than actual, in the sense that it does not free us from 'the sin' which causes us to keep sinning in our lifetime?


I ask because you seemed to be implying that we are never able to be free from sinning; although you didn't say that and I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, but rather, I'm trying to clarify what you think the Romans 3 passage is saying.

Reading your earlier reply, I'm getting that we cannot stop ourselves sinning (even after faith in Christ's death, blood, resurrection and life), and that nevertheless, because of the righteousness of God demonstrated through the faithfulness of Christ, if we have faith in His blood we are 'declared righteous', (although still being effectively dead in trespasses and sins and unable to veer off the course of this world).

Is he really saying we are declared righteous while still IN our sin(s)? (Doesn't repentance have something to do with changing our relationship with sin?)

What about

Ephesians 2:1 '... who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world

Please could you place Romans 6 somewhere in your thesis?


Since I've rambled on a bit, perhaps you would also take in why John goes on to say,

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin ... ?



Just for the record, I believe that being buried with Him in baptism is in the past tense, and Colossians 2:11 refers to having been circumcised in heart. (We are not continuously being circumcised in our hearts although the KJV renders it as if we are).

If we understand the gospel which Paul preached, and we are reckoning ourselves dead in Christ, then in Him we are dead to sin and dead to the world, and it's only if we step back out of the good of His death, that we sin by what happens next. This cutting ourselves free from the effect of His death in us, is the same as cutting ourselves off from Christ as the true Vine, thus ceasing to abide in Him. He stated clearly what happens to dead branches, in John 15.

Are you saying that the life of Christ flowing through us as the life of the true Vine does not enable us to cease from sin?

[Timmy]

Yes concerning 1).

Regarding 2), sin and sins are two different things. What is being referred to concerning confession, is that without the walk, it is not faith that is vindicated.

As long as we remain in our bodies, we possess the nature to sin, and so whether or not we have come to the point of discerning how so, we are sinning at various times. Our own physical death is proof positive of this very fact. Sensitivity to prevent this sinning comes as we walk more and more in His light, and we are also changed "from glory to glory" pursuing this path of Jesus.

Repemtance only changes our own mind toward sin.

Only God can change us so that we do not sin.

Everyone who has ever existed is already saved in their sin:

Romans 5:
6 For while we were still helpless, at the appointed moment, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For rarely will someone die for a just person — though for a good person perhaps someone might even dare to die. 8 But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us! 9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath. 10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, then how much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life! 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ. We have now received this reconciliation through Him.

The question is if they will for themselves appropriate this finished work through the faithfulness that is in Jesus, the Christ...just like those whom Paul notes above in verse 9. The declaration of righteousness comes as a free gift, but it is not cheap. We conform our minds and attitudes to the Christ's, which in turn leads to walking in the light as He is in the light<--that was just a detailed way of saying repentance and what results from it.

The Lamb of God shed His blood to remit all that was relative to sin and not just sin itself. Redemption is God purchasing back all things Adamah abdicated to the Adversary, that primeval serpent in the garden. It was not done for man. It was done to show HYLL how much of a fool he really is in making it so he would lose his ownership of everything Yaweh Eloheinu gave Adamah dominion of at the onset, for Paul, in I Corinthians reveals,"None of the rulers of this age knew this wisdom, for if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."


Romans 6?

What about chapters 5-8? I could not explain it any better than that.

Baptism, immersing our lives being lived into Jesus is a progressive. We are continually being circumcised. Reckoning is perpetual.

Where there is the past tense at times concerning baptism, look at the context. It can either be referring to the physical symbolic act via water or an initiation into this walk with the Christ.

Walking according to the course of this world is not slipping off the narrow path to return thereon.

Many there be who have found the straight gate and few there be on the narrow path growing narrower.

Why do you call it my thesis.?

It's right there in the Bible, and anything i say will need to be explained further it seems.

If these things were not answered to your satisfaction, either tell me what i am missing or ask if there is another question.

Shalom to you and yours Charis,

Barefeeteded Timmy

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Are you saying that the life of Christ flowing through us as the life of the true Vine does not enable us to cease from sin?

If you really ceased from sin, then you could say that there is no sin in you, and that would mean you are a liar.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[Mystykal]

If you really ceased from sin, then you could say that there is no sin in you, and that would mean you are a liar.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Hi Richard: Charisma: Timmy....

Ok my two cents....

Richard I agree with YOU! I wonder tho - why does it matter to you if you think Jesus is fake/myth and IHVH is NOT really the SAVIOUR (eg: "I am the LORD and besides me there is NO Saviour!") and Paul and his Pauline doctrine is really NOT Christian per se.... I can go on. Now, old Testament theology v/s New Testament theology in my opinion does not exist since Jesus to be a vaild SAVIOUR must be the OT IHVH with NO new gospel whatsoever! So all this talk of Pauline New Covenant grace-based salvation by faith - is hoc os pocos est! The fact that Jesus is qouted as saying, "Search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life, AND THESE ARE THEY which testify of ME!" - Clearly is a throw-back to the IHVH GOD Model which Jesus is claiming as His own! There can be no "salvation" from sin apart from the sanctuary service model of the Levitical service; eventhough Jesus calls Himself a priest after the order of Melchizedek - which some scholars argue for a scribble deviation on the part of the Masoretic text development. ( Abraham and Melchizedek: Scribal Activity of Second Temple Times ..., Volume 23// http://books.google.com/books?id=kBB...page&q&f=false )

So the questions of sin or no sin based on Paul's writings solely is not good theology. However, this topic has been splitting Christians for generations and I doubt it will be resolved here.

I'm out!

Namaste,

Mystykal

[David M]

I shall also add my two pennies (cents) to explain what I think it means for Christ to cleanse us of all sin.

It is obvious that in this life we have sinned. That sin remains a memory to us. Unless the memory is erased, the sin remains in our memory to be exposed at any time. Even if we have lost our memory, the sin is known by God to have happened .

The situation is this; it is through the sacrificial blood of Jesus whereby those sins can blotted out as if they never happened. Hence the washing of the garments of the saints in the blood of the lamb that makes the garments clean. (Rev 7:14)... have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
. Although we have the stain of sin present with us, Jesus by his covering presents us to his Heavenly Father as perfect and without spot. (Jude 24)Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.


It is upon that presentation, we can only be judged to be perfect. Final perfection does not come about until immortality is bestowed and then the immortal body cannot sin, the same as Jesus cannot be tempted any longer to sin and will never sin. As it is written; "we shall be like him" (1 John 3:2).

We are not and cannot be completely like Jesus is now; that can only come after the resurrection. Until Jesus was resurrected he was not made perfect. Jesus would not have been made perfect unless Jesus had been completely obedient to God's instruction and carried out God's will. Even Jesus said; Why callest thou me good (perfect)? there is none good but one, that is, God: (Hebrews 5:9) And being made perfect, he (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

It is only by the sacrificial blood of Jesus can everyone who has ever sinned be presented before God as perfect and have their sins blotted out. (Acts 3:19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Jesus is our high priest now making intercession for us; (Romans 8:34)It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

In life we carry our sins with us in our memory. With the knowledge of the forgiveness of sin that is possible, we do not have to carry the burden of sin in our mind that can weigh heavily on our mind. It is with the confidence we can have in a saviour that through the shed blood of Jesus, we can carry on in life knowing that our sins have and will be forgiven, hence (Hebrews 12:1) let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Without Jesus taking the load of us, or by us not sharing his yoke, we carry the heavy burden of sin to the grave. God be praised for the offer of eternal life that he has extended to us all, because of what Jesus did and whereby God's principle that (Hebrews 9:22); without shedding of blood is no remission.
. God has kept to his word and stuck to his principle. He judges according to the perfect standard which is Jesus. This means that without the covering of Jesus, our sins and imperfections are exposed before God and we never measure up to the standard of Jesus. We could never be judged acceptable in that case. That must mean, in order to be saved, we have to be in relationship with Jesus and we also have to obey the commands of Jesus even to the fulfilling of "all righteousness", hence (Mark 16:16);He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ....)



David